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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:22 am

    Couple of interesting news from the North.....


    Russia plans to lay trans-Arctic fiber cable linking military installations



    Starting in Severomorsk on the Kola Peninsula, the fiber-optic line will provide state-of-the art tele- and data communication to all military bases and installations across the Arctic to Vladivostok......

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2018/04/russia-slated-lay-military-trans-arctic-fibre-cable

    Russian Northern Fleet Creates Submarine Division for Deep-Water Operations



    The Russian Navy Northern fleet created a deep-water division. It comprises small nuclear-powered deep-water stations capable of operating at depths of up to six thousand meters. It also has submarine carriers of the craft and a big number of robotized underwater complexes. The secret formation is subordinated directly to the defense minister, the Izvestia daily writes.

    more at
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/april-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6169-russian-northern-fleet-creates-submarine-division-for-deep-water-operations.html

    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What the hell does nuclear war have to do with sinking naval vessels?? The subject was size, capabilities and general growth rate of the different navies.

    Obviously a smart one... what would stop China from sinking any Russian vessel... would it be good will, or because they are just basically internationally law abiding people... possibly, but the threat of retaliation from Russia up to and including a nuclear strike is what stops anyone from doing it from the UK and France to the US and Japan...

    More importantly the Yj-100 missile you were talking about is an subsonic anti ship missile.... Kashtan eats those for breakfast...

    Soon Zircon will make every foreign navy vulnerable...

    15 years ago perhaps, not today.

    Do you have evidence or just opinion?

    Thats not what he is saying, he is saying that Chinas navy will be more compareble to the US navy by 2030 in its abilities,

    Russia has the equivalent land attack capability using a few subs and a few corvettes. As they introduce new larger vessels their capacity will only increase.

    The Russian corvettes of today are comparable in C4IR to AEGIS cruisers of the cold war... can't really say the same for current US corvettes.

    the modular scalability of the Russian navy means bigger vessels will be even better with larger more powerful sensors and larger weapon loads.


    1. U obviously want to make this discussion in to something else then comparing the different navies and capabilities. But hey China has nuclear weapon also Rolling Eyes And you do realize that China has far more launch platforms for long-range anti-ship missiles then Russia? And that gap is growing every year.

    2. Well all weaponsystems, missiles, sensors, hulls, radars and engines are today produced localy in China. Im sure I can find some sources if u really want that.

    3. I think, again, he ment that the basis for the chinese navy will be more similar to the US then SU ever was. Not just in land attack capabilities, but more in line with the power of aircraft carriers and amphibius warfare ecs.
    What large Russian vessles are u talking about? Liders? China has today destroyers with 64 and 112 VLS per ship......I think today only the Type-052D class includes over 800 missiles hatches that could, in theory, be armed with longe range land and anti-ship missiles.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:40 pm

    walle83 wrote:

    1. U obviously want to make this discussion in to something else then comparing the different navies and capabilities. But hey China has nuclear weapon also Rolling Eyes And you do realize that China has far more launch platforms for long-range anti-ship missiles then Russia? And that gap is growing every year.

    2. Well all weaponsystems, missiles, sensors, hulls, radars and engines are today produced localy in China. Im sure I can find some sources if u really want that.

    3. I think, again, he ment that the basis for the chinese navy will be more similar to the US then SU ever was. Not just in land attack capabilities, but more in line with the power of aircraft carriers and amphibius warfare ecs.
    What large Russian vessles are u talking about? Liders? China has today destroyers with 64 and 112 VLS per ship......I think today only the Type-052D class includes over 800 missiles hatches that could, in theory, be armed with longe range land and anti-ship missiles.


    China has sea lanes to protect, Russia hasn't got any apart from the arctic. But that needs submarines , not ships, due to ice.

    Surprise, surprise, Russia is more advances in the submarine technology.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:41 pm

    Today Russia and China got less problems with each other than Germany and France, so please could we stop this western BS of possible fights between them?
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm

    Hole wrote:Today Russia and China got less problems with each other than Germany and France, so please could we stop this western BS of possible fights between them?

    It is a discussion that pro US guys bring everywhere because they are afraid to compare China against US. They prefere to say there will be a war between china and russia first while there is 0 evidence that such war will happen.

    The thing is if China take all the petrol in russian Siberia by taking their land, it would make them a much harder oponent for US because they will exploit their own petrol.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:15 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:Today Russia and China got less problems with each other than Germany and France, so please could we stop this western BS of possible fights between them?

    It is a discussion that pro US guys bring everywhere because they are afraid to compare China against US. They prefere to say there will be a war between china and russia first while there is 0 evidence that such war will happen.

    The thing is if China take all the petrol in russian Siberia by taking their land, it would make them a much harder oponent for US because they will exploit their own petrol.

    It won't make them too much good.

    The main oil areas are far away from China, and cost so much to make pipelines there.

    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:59 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    1. U obviously want to make this discussion in to something else then comparing the different navies and capabilities. But hey China has nuclear weapon also Rolling Eyes And you do realize that China has far more launch platforms for long-range anti-ship missiles then Russia? And that gap is growing every year.

    2. Well all weaponsystems, missiles, sensors, hulls, radars and engines are today produced localy in China. Im sure I can find some sources if u really want that.

    3. I think, again, he ment that the basis for the chinese navy will be more similar to the US then SU ever was. Not just in land attack capabilities, but more in line with the power of aircraft carriers and amphibius warfare ecs.
    What large Russian vessles are u talking about? Liders? China has today destroyers with 64 and 112 VLS per ship......I think today only the Type-052D class includes over 800 missiles hatches that could, in theory, be armed with longe range land and anti-ship missiles.


    China has sea lanes to protect, Russia hasn't got any apart from the arctic. But that needs submarines , not ships, due to ice.

    Surprise, surprise, Russia is more advances in the submarine technology.

    Suprise suprise noone has disputed that...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:04 pm

    Like it or not in terms of naval power China beats out Russia fairly easy.

    That just plain has day.

    Every year they also grow and grow, by 2030 yeah they will be the biggest navy on the planet. They may not have 11 carriers but they don't need 11 carriers.

    Russia simply cannot compete against china in that area.

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:25 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Russia simply cannot compete against china in that area.

    Russia doesn't intend, or need, to compete against china in that area.

    There.. fixed it for you, so now pls give it a fking rest...
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  ZoA on Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:45 am

    Hole wrote:Today Russia and China got less problems with each other than Germany and France, so please could we stop this western BS of possible fights between them?

    QFT
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2018 9:04 am

    1. U obviously want to make this discussion in to something else then comparing the different navies and capabilities. But hey China has nuclear weapon also Rolling Eyes And you do realize that China has far more launch platforms for long-range anti-ship missiles then Russia? And that gap is growing every year.

    China also has a much larger land force than any other country... are you suggesting they could be on the French coast in 6 weeks?

    The Vietnamese forces defeated the Chinese ground forces fairly convincingly during their little border skirmish, and I have seen nothing to suggest that Chinese forces have improved that much.

    The Soviets had a wide range of anti ship missiles and have produced defence systems to deal with such threats... I rather doubt the US could defeat Russian naval defences easily let alone China and this has nothing to do with numbers.

    It will only get worse when Zircon missiles enter service.


    2. Well all weaponsystems, missiles, sensors, hulls, radars and engines are today produced localy in China. Im sure I can find some sources if u really want that.

    Well good for China... the problem is that really complex stuff is still imported... why else would China be buying Su-35s and S-400s from Russia?

    Su-35s are not even state of the art Russian stuff at the moment... it is the same in naval gear...


    3. I think, again, he ment that the basis for the chinese navy will be more similar to the US then SU ever was. Not just in land attack capabilities, but more in line with the power of aircraft carriers and amphibius warfare ecs.

    Yeah... that is what the world needs... another America...

    Apart from Taiwan and its new south china sea islands I wonder what they will need those amphibious forces for... I am guessing Japan is going to start rearming soon... I wonder if the remilitarisation of Japan... with all the economic benefits that this includes, might lead to a restart for them... remember just before WWII they had a powerful military with some very ordinary small arms and tanks but very capable aircraft...

    What large Russian vessles are u talking about? Liders? China has today destroyers with 64 and 112 VLS per ship......I think today only the Type-052D class includes over 800 missiles hatches that could, in theory, be armed with longe range land and anti-ship missiles.

    And what could all those missiles possibly be used against?

    One Tu-22M3 flying in at mach 2 to deliver a couple of Kinzhal mach 10 missiles with 2,000km range... and of course Zircon mach 8 missiles in every launch tube of their surface and submarine fleet...

    But of course Russia fighting China would be Americas ultimate wet dream...

    The thing is if China take all the petrol in russian Siberia by taking their land, it would make them a much harder oponent for US because they will exploit their own petrol.

    Yes... Americans are so smart... China will risk a nuclear strike from Russia just because it thinks it would be better off economically with all that oil... what they are not telling you is that it is the Americans that want all that oil and they want Russian and China to fight each other over it hopefully destroying each other so they can come in and steal it, but with the bonus of having China destroyed for them... I can see their hard ons from here...

    Reality is that the Chinese are not stupid and realise for a fraction of the cost of an invasion and the retaliation, they can simply buy the fucking oil from Russia who is happy to extract the stuff and sell it to China...

    The only reason that China needs a big navy is to deal with the US Navy when and if it tries to return Taiwan to the fold.... America has made promises and if it tries to keep them then it will need to be dealt with...

    Russia wont stop Chinese growth... It is the west that does not accept rivals...

    Like it or not in terms of naval power China beats out Russia fairly easy.

    That just plain has day.

    Of course... like saudi arabia is kicking ass in Yemen because on paper it is pretty impressive...

    Of course there is more to being a military force than having all the cool bits and pieces.

    Every year they also grow and grow, by 2030 yeah they will be the biggest navy on the planet. They may not have 11 carriers but they don't need 11 carriers.

    Russia simply cannot compete against china in that area.

    Russia has no reason to compete in numbers with anyone... the US, the UK, France, NATO, or China, or India for that matter...

    Currently the US has nothing that can reliably stop an Onyx... and Zircon is on the way...


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    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Tue May 01, 2018 2:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    1. U obviously want to make this discussion in to something else then comparing the different navies and capabilities. But hey China has nuclear weapon also Rolling Eyes And you do realize that China has far more launch platforms for long-range anti-ship missiles then Russia? And that gap is growing every year.

    China also has a much larger land force than any other country... are you suggesting they could be on the French coast in 6 weeks?

    The Vietnamese forces defeated the Chinese ground forces fairly convincingly during their little border skirmish, and I have seen nothing to suggest that Chinese forces have improved that much.

    The Soviets had a wide range of anti ship missiles and have produced defence systems to deal with such threats... I rather doubt the US could defeat Russian naval defences easily let alone China and this has nothing to do with numbers.

    It will only get worse when Zircon missiles enter service.


    2. Well all weaponsystems, missiles, sensors, hulls, radars and engines are today produced localy in China. Im sure I can find some sources if u really want that.

    Well good for China... the problem is that really complex stuff is still imported... why else would China be buying Su-35s and S-400s from Russia?

    Su-35s are not even state of the art Russian stuff at the moment... it is the same in naval gear...


    3. I think, again, he ment that the basis for the chinese navy will be more similar to the US then SU ever was. Not just in land attack capabilities, but more in line with the power of aircraft carriers and amphibius warfare ecs.

    Yeah... that is what the world needs... another America...

    Apart from Taiwan and its new south china sea islands I wonder what they will need those amphibious forces for... I am guessing Japan is going to start rearming soon... I wonder if the remilitarisation of Japan... with all the economic benefits that this includes, might lead to a restart for them... remember just before WWII they had a powerful military with some very ordinary small arms and tanks but very capable aircraft...

    What large Russian vessles are u talking about? Liders? China has today destroyers with 64 and 112 VLS per ship......I think today only the Type-052D class includes over 800 missiles hatches that could, in theory, be armed with longe range land and anti-ship missiles.

    And what could all those missiles possibly be used against?

    One Tu-22M3 flying in at mach 2 to deliver a couple of Kinzhal mach 10 missiles with 2,000km range... and of course Zircon mach 8 missiles in every launch tube of their surface and submarine fleet...

    But of course Russia fighting China would be Americas ultimate wet dream...

    1. No, but why would they want to? Remember we are talking about abilities in 2030, not today.
    2. Yes that is good for China. And yes they are still importing some high-tech technology, but we were talking about naval vessel now right? And u dont think China will start producing thier own variant of those systems just a few years from now? Like they have with every other system they have ever imported.
    3. Correct me if im wrong, but u are talking about weapons that still is in development face? U dont think China with its huge defence budget has plans to produce something similar by 2030?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 01, 2018 2:55 pm

    When China will start with domestic production of tech, Russians will already have next generation succesor in active duty. There are two kinds of countries in the world, everlasting importers and everlasting exporters. Russia will always have the best knowledge in their universities, while China can steal a secret only once.

    While no defense budget can solve this, education budget can. But it's a long way to get there.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Tue May 01, 2018 4:52 pm

    Once again, look at a map!

    Why is the Navy so important for England? Because it is a Island. Same goes for Amiland, which is like an Island.

    Why is the Navy so important for China? 80% of their population lives at the coast or nearby. And there is an open ocean next to it.

    The longest russian coast lines are in the north and the pacific. They are mostly covered by ice. The other seas are the Baltic, black sea and caspian sea, there the russian forces (small combatants, SSK´s, coastal defence systems, air defence systems, fighter jets) are superior to any other country. For other missions they got 20 - 25 larger ships + SSBN´s for strategic defence. The Kirovs, Slavas and some Udaloys will be modernised, in the meantime they will build/develop successors. They don´t need more.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 01, 2018 5:24 pm

    A need is a relative thing. Back in the 1990s, Russia degraded from world superpower to a regional power on a verge of collapse. They haven't been able of defending themselves against Chechen separatists, let alone patrolling world ocean. But resurgent Russia wants to send their ships to the southern latitudes again, just like they started flying strategic bombers over Newfoundland again after 20 years. Unfortunately, that's not possible with unreliable Soviet era fleet, just like they couldn't send a sub down there till they comissioned first Borey in 2013.

    You don't realise how important having a big navy is for your economy, until you get one. Russia would still be a stubborn asian duchy, if it wasn't for Peter the Great.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm

    A Navy is good for your economy when you need ressources and slaves.
    Russia can reach 1,4 Billion chinese, 120 Million Japanese and 60 Million Koreans wihtout a large Navy.
    Trough China there are another 500 Million People in SE asia.
    Trough central asia, the caspian sea and the caucasus there are 2 Billion People in India, Pakistan, Iran and the Middle-east.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue May 01, 2018 11:36 pm

    Container shipping per mile costs 1 $ with ship and 3 $ with train. Why should Russian trade be dependent on friendly relations with China to access South Asia? There is no such trade due to lack of infrastructure btw.

    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Wed May 02, 2018 12:48 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:When China will start with domestic production of tech, Russians will already have next generation succesor in active duty. There are two kinds of countries in the world, everlasting importers and everlasting exporters. Russia will always have the best knowledge in their universities, while China can steal a secret only once.

    While no defense budget can solve this, education budget can. But it's a long way to get there.

    Have u looked how far China has come in the last 15 years? And u mean to say that has nothing to do with a ever larger military budget?
    Big budget means large money on development. Alot of development means faster production, faster testing and sea-trails. And that means small periods between generation of ships.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 02, 2018 4:48 am

    1. No, but why would they want to? Remember we are talking about abilities in 2030, not today.

    What are you expecting to be different in 2030?

    2. Yes that is good for China. And yes they are still importing some high-tech technology, but we were talking about naval vessel now right? And u dont think China will start producing thier own variant of those systems just a few years from now? Like they have with every other system they have ever imported.

    So do you think Russia and China and the US for that matter in 2030 all having mach 10 plus missiles designed to destroy ships is not important to the navies of China, Russia and the US?

    It is cheaper to make 10,000 missiles than 10,000 ships you want to use to challenge Russia or the US with... when they are sunk what will you have?

    Took a lot of money and time to build all those targets... could have built something useful instead...

    Cold wars and arms races blind you to what you should be spending money on...

    3. Correct me if im wrong, but u are talking about weapons that still is in development face? U dont think China with its huge defence budget has plans to produce something similar by 2030?

    I expect by 2030 the Kinzhal is going to be rather pedestrian and low tech... what implications does that have for countries mass producing warships right now?

    After WWII the Soviets went on a sub building frenzy... they planned to build about 350 of one type alone and they had a few types on the books also being made...

    It is a bit like building 200,000 tanks... the other guy doesn't need to make 200,001 tanks to win... you already lost wasting time and money making something that is only ever any use in WWIII... and with nukes you lose... because everyone loses.

    Now that we are approaching 2020 Putin is looking at his upgrade and overhaul of the military and he seems largely happy with the progress... now it is time to improve the standard of living and infrastructure at home... China should do the same... Only Boeing and Lockheed Martin and other such companies benefit from arms races.

    A Navy is good for your economy when you need ressources and slaves.
    Russia can reach 1,4 Billion chinese, 120 Million Japanese and 60 Million Koreans wihtout a large Navy.
    Trough China there are another 500 Million People in SE asia.
    Trough central asia, the caspian sea and the caucasus there are 2 Billion People in India, Pakistan, Iran and the Middle-east.

    Why would Russia want to deal with middlemen?

    Via their ports they can reach anyone they want... and that Asian market they can transport goods by sea via their northern route that they keep open with icebreakers... but they will need the cargo ships and tankers and some military ships to make sure they are unmolested.

    And u mean to say that has nothing to do with a ever larger military budget?

    Western investment in cheap labour in a country with little to none in terms of labour laws.

    China grew so rapidly because there was enormous room for growth.

    In the 1990s most Chinese people moved around on bicycles in cities... I remember seeing footage.
    Then western companies came in and sold cars and all of a sudden pollution is a problem and energy is a problem... once China becomes a consumer market like the US the world is in trouble... during the late 20th century the US's 350 million people managed to consume resources and energy comparable to the rest of the planet... what is 1.5 billion Chinese consuming at that rate going to do... and it is not just Chinese, it is Indians, and other people around the place.

    There will be wars over access to fresh water.


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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Wed May 02, 2018 11:37 am

    ever heard of one belt one road?
    The whole of Eurasia will be connected. In ten years russian trucks or trains will travel trough China to Laos or Cambodia and chinese Trains will travel trough Russia to Europe.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 02, 2018 12:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Now that we are approaching 2020 Putin is looking at his upgrade and overhaul of the military and he seems largely happy with the progress... now it is time to improve the standard of living and infrastructure at home... China should do the same... Only Boeing and Lockheed Martin and other such companies benefit from arms races.

    Yes, exactly. That's why they're reducing defense budget and are shifting the funds towards social services, health care and education. MIC has been largly rebuilt and shipyards are laying down 8k ton ships again. Now the economy should be restructured to overcome traditional dependency on oil and military exports and start producing high tech electronics with high added value. If Russia gets rid of corruption and consolidates financial sector, they can get the best out of Asian and European world.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 03, 2018 2:52 am

    They haven't been able of defending themselves against Chechen separatists, let alone patrolling world ocean.

    Yeah, I don't remember the all powerful US navy being much use in Korea or Vietnam... like not enough to actually win or anything.

    ever heard of one belt one road?
    The whole of Eurasia will be connected. In ten years russian trucks or trains will travel trough China to Laos or Cambodia and chinese Trains will travel trough Russia to Europe.

    Those roads and rails are mostly already there... what is stopping the process is politics... how do you think sending a truck with 20 tons of stuff from the Russian arctic down through 10 different countries to get to India or Myanmar is going to be quicker and easier and cheaper than putting 2,000 tons of stuff on a ship at Vladivostok and sailing there in one continuous trip with no borders, no tariffs, no inspections on the way...

    For China to send its goods to Europe it mostly just goes through Russia and then it is in Europe, so it makes a lot of sense for China... for everyone else... not huge... it gives cheaper access to goods that are already cheaper because they are made in China... who is not going to tariff the hell out of that at the other end?

    Now the economy should be restructured to overcome traditional dependency on oil and military exports and start producing high tech electronics with high added value.

    If you think of it as a household... the windows were all jammed open... some were broken, and the front door and back door didn't have locks that worked.

    Putin has had the locks changed, reinforced the doors and windows with deadlocks and other security features... and the gun under his bed is loaded and ready.

    Now he is looking at getting every working age person in the house into work and paying board money, he is upgrading the bathroom and kitchen, he is putting in insulation and heating, and looking at big screen TVs...


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Thu May 03, 2018 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:
    1. No, but why would they want to? Remember we are talking about abilities in 2030, not today.

    What are you expecting to be different in 2030?

    2. Yes that is good for China. And yes they are still importing some high-tech technology, but we were talking about naval vessel now right? And u dont think China will start producing thier own variant of those systems just a few years from now? Like they have with every other system they have ever imported.

    So do you think Russia and China and the US for that matter in 2030 all having mach 10 plus missiles designed to destroy ships is not important to the navies of China, Russia and the US?

    It is cheaper to make 10,000 missiles than 10,000 ships you want to use to challenge Russia or the US with... when they are sunk what will you have?

    Took a lot of money and time to build all those targets... could have built something useful instead...

    Cold wars and arms races blind you to what you should be spending money on...

    3. Correct me if im wrong, but u are talking about weapons that still is in development face? U dont think China with its huge defence budget has plans to produce something similar by 2030?

    I expect by 2030 the Kinzhal is going to be rather pedestrian and low tech... what implications does that have for countries mass producing warships right now?

    After WWII the Soviets went on a sub building frenzy... they planned to build about 350 of one type alone and they had a few types on the books also being made...

    It is a bit like building 200,000 tanks... the other guy doesn't need to make 200,001 tanks to win... you already lost wasting time and money making something that is only ever any use in WWIII... and with nukes you lose... because everyone loses.

    Now that we are approaching 2020 Putin is looking at his upgrade and overhaul of the military and he seems largely happy with the progress... now it is time to improve the standard of living and infrastructure at home... China should do the same... Only Boeing and Lockheed Martin and other such companies benefit from arms races.


    And u mean to say that has nothing to do with a ever larger military budget?

    Western investment in cheap labour in a country with little to none in terms of labour laws.

    China grew so rapidly because there was enormous room for growth.

    In the 1990s most Chinese people moved around on bicycles in cities... I remember seeing footage.
    Then western companies came in and sold cars and all of a sudden pollution is a problem and energy is a problem... once China becomes a consumer market like the US the world is in trouble... during the late 20th century the US's 350 million people managed to consume resources and energy comparable to the rest of the planet... what is 1.5 billion Chinese consuming at that rate going to do... and it is not just Chinese, it is Indians, and other people around the place.

    There will be wars over access to fresh water.

    1. Very much will be different in the world with two military superpowers, and no im not talking about Russia....

    2. You are making less and less sence man, you are saying that a huge navy that includes 5-6 large carriers, 40-50 missile deatroyers, 50 frigates and 50-60 submarines only will be large targets for the Russians and have no strategic role by 2030? Rolling Eyes Yeah the us better start scrapping thier navy today, becouse its no use to them at all.....
    10.000 missiles? What on earth would Russia (or anybody else) use for launch platforms for all that missiles by 2030? 30 Tu-22Ms and ~100 MiG-31 going back and forwards 50 times?

    Look, the whole point is that China is in progress of develop a huge modern military, and they have the money to do that. Will Russia have tech that will give them very high quality weapon systems, yes.  But that does not mean that China wont pass Russia in most branches in some years. By 2030 China most probably will have u budget 5 times larger then Russia, a 4-5 times larger navy, many more 5th generation fighters and so on. If u cant see that...well u must be blind.

    Arrow

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Arrow on Thu May 03, 2018 11:58 am

    By 2030 China most probably will have u budget 5 times larger then Russia, a 4-5 times larger navy, many more 5th generation fighters and so on. If u cant see that...well u must be blind. Back to top Reply with quote wrote:

    Now China spent about 5 times more for defence than Russia. China will be a superpower, Russia only regional power.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Thu May 03, 2018 3:27 pm

    Hole wrote:Kimpis claimed the chinese Navy would have mor ships than the SU. He is wrong.

    As Walle83 pointed out, I didn't claim that. I only claimed that in 2030 China's naval - especially its blue-water - capabilities will be more comparable to the US Navy of 2030. Of course I realize the comparison is largely pointless, because USSR's geography, trade relations and other priorities were completely different.

    Just saying, because some people were seriously comparing Russian Navy of 2030 favourably to the Chinese. China's surface fleet of 2020 will be much superior to the Russian Navy of 2030 ffs...

    2020:

    2-3 Type 055s
    14+ Type 052Ds
    6 Type 052Cs
    6-8 (atleast) older destroyers that have been extensively upgraded

    = That's close to 30 modern destroyers and BY THE END OF 2020, not 2030, not even 2025

    + atleast 30 NEW Type 054A frigates

    + 2 carriers, 1 launched/close to launch and 1 large helicopter carrier, 6 LPDs

    walle83 wrote:Have u looked how far China has come in the last 15 years?

    No he hasn't.

    Now verkhoturye51's earlier submarine comparison about "75 hunter killer submarines" is weird as well and just not based on reality. Atleast he's probably correct that the Russian submarine fleet would make any Chinese coastal invasion costly, but that scenario is totally ridiculous to begin with.

    But the thing is: Russia will not have 75 "attack" submarines, AFAIK. They currently have around 20 diesel subs and 20 SSNs and SSGNs. That's 40-45 boats. Is that - in itself a very respectable fleet - going to massively grow any time soon? When? How?

    And again: by 2030 China will have atleast a similar number of SSNs (probably slightly larger, IMO) +  a huge number of modern diesel boats, probably topping 60. So there will be a country with 75 "hunter-killers", but it's not going to be Russia.

    Most seem to atleast agree that these direct Russia vs. China comparisons and scenarios are pointless and unrealistic. However, I think Russia's naval capabilities should actually be compared to the UK, France and maybe Germany combined. Now that's a realistic goal, kind of anyway, especially when you consider all the coastal and brown water capabilities Russia has.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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