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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  kvs on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:30 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Navy is the only mean of reaching remote parts of the world and can have huge geopolitical impact. Absence of blue water navy means no way of opposing opponent's geostrategic interests, like regime changes in Cuba or Venezuela. ICBMs are only a deterrent force, while Russian strategic air component is perhaps the weakest part of the army.

    Do you think it's coincidence that Russians had the most friends in the Third world in the 1960-1990 era? Without naval assets for resupply they would be left to mercy of US supported block and perhaps anticolonialism would be significantly less successful.

    In the meantime, US sends another CVN to Mediterranean to compete with Russian presence there (in the last 4 days they sent additional two frigates, destroyer and a tanker):

    https://twitter.com/LepontDahu/status/988312740749021184

    Russia is not interested in being the global cop. Venezuela has itself to blame for its looming collapse. It is a sad case of unskilled leadership that
    could not fill the shoes of Chavez. If Russia is not going to "save" Ukraine, it has no business trying to save the failed state called Venezuela.
    Really, Latin Americans need to get their sh*t together. They have been letting Uncle Scumbag sodomize them for way too long.

    One of the biggest pluses for Russia from the collapse of the USSR has been the discontinuation of global intervention in the name of some
    ideology. The propagation of these ideals and agendas lubricated the meddling of Uncle Scumbag. Without this lubrication, Uncle Scumbag
    is actually losing his grip. The world is way too big for any country to manage. Rome couldn't even manage a bunch of barbarians in a vastly
    smaller geographical region. If Russia starts to meddle, it will benefit the US parasite the most.

    Syria and the middle east are different since Russia is building a bulwark (Lebanon-Syria-Iraq-Iran- later Afghanistan) against the Wahabbi jihadi
    hordes. This is about managing a direct threat to Russia and not about global policing.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:05 pm

    verkhoturye51... China is already the number 2. While their SSN fleet is certainly not as good as Russia's... that is still obvious.

    It's very misleading to say that the Chinese Navy has not grown, nor is it actually true. China's navy was dogshit before 2010, it was always behind technologically, none of its vessels were modern (before the early 2000s). That's not the case anymore, it's the opposite. PLAN will basically be fully modern by 2020, after that it's goodbye for Pax Americana (I'm mainly talking about Western Pacific, not some global Chinese hegemony).  

    This is my rough estimate for the Chinese Navy in 2030:

    5-6 carriers
    5-6+ helicopter carriers
    10+ LPDs

    40-50+ destroyers (not an exaggeration)
    40+ frigates
    60-100 corvettes
    60 missile boats (if they keep them)

    20+ SSNs (they will technologically also more or less catch up with Russia with their Type 095, especially considering that Russia will certainly not have 20 Yasens by 2030, closer to 10 + older upgraded boats)
    60+ modern SSKs

    China's blue water capability will be stronger vis-a-vis the US in 2030 than the USSR's ever was, for the most part, maybe not in regards to SSNs, but nothing's certain.

    Comparing China's current capabilities to Russia's Syria operation is difficult, because their geography is so different, but China could certainly pull off a similar operation and then some. That is, from a similar distance to the mainland, let's not also forget that Russia had access to bases in Syria from day 1. However, I do agree that there are very few countries that could do that, but China is certainly one of them. Let's not even talk about PLAN of 2030... Those numbers above should be clear enough.

    And as has already been pointed out, by 2030 Russia will have:

    0 new carriers operational
    0-1 Liders

    I'm also not saying any of this really matters, Russia really is much less of a sea power than China, but come on now...

    kumbor

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    Russian navy status and news

    Post  kumbor on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:18 pm

    Kimppis wrote:verkhoturye51... China is already the number 2. While their SSN fleet is certainly not as good as Russia's... that is still obvious.

    It's very misleading to say that the Chinese Navy has not grown, nor is it actually true. China's navy was dogshit before 2010, it was always behind technologically, none of its vessels were modern (before the early 2000s). That's not the case anymore, it's the opposite. PLAN will basically be fully modern by 2020, after that it's goodbye for Pax Americana (I'm mainly talking about Western Pacific, not some global Chinese hegemony).  

    This is my rough estimate for the Chinese Navy in 2030:

    5-6 carriers
    5-6+ helicopter carriers
    10+ LPDs

    40-50+ destroyers (not an exaggeration)
    40+ frigates
    60-100 corvettes
    60 missile boats (if they keep them)

    20+ SSNs (they will technologically also more or less catch up with Russia with their Type 095, especially considering that Russia will certainly not have 20 Yasens by 2030, closer to 10 + older upgraded boats)
    60+ modern SSKs

    Mind that Russia has always been principally continental - land power, while in maritime sense Russia must have strong navy as to defend its coast, as well as overseas interesses, but without need to be the first maritime power in the world. There is no need for that.


    China's blue water capability will be stronger vis-a-vis the US in 2030 than the USSR's ever was, for the most part, maybe not in regards to SSNs, but nothing's certain.

    Comparing China's current capabilities to Russia's Syria operation is difficult, because their geography is so different, but China could certainly pull off a similar operation and then some. That is, from a similar distance to the mainland, let's not also forget that Russia had access to bases in Syria from day 1. However, I do agree that there are very few countries that could do that, but China is certainly one of them. Let's not even talk about PLAN of 2030... Those numbers above should be clear enough.

    And as has already been pointed out, by 2030 Russia will have:

    0 new carriers operational
    0-1 Liders

    I'm also not saying any of this really matters, Russia really is much less of a sea power than China, but come on now...

    Mind that Russia has always been principally continental - land power, while in maritime sense Russia must have strong navy as to defend its coast, as well as overseas interesses, but without need to be the first maritime power in the world. There is no need for that. Russia must have sufficiently strong navy! Sufficiently doesn`t mean overwhelmingly.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:19 pm

    Please, I know education in Finland sucks, but nothing is certain about what is and what isn't. So please stop providing your projections.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:08 pm

    Alright guys, I think that we all agree by now that Russia is mostly continental country, but navy still matters. And that different navies are not very comparable.

    However, Russians didn't sit and watch Chinese naval modernization. By 2023, all Soviet submarines, aircraft carrier and 2 heavy cruisers will be modernized, Production of large surface ships is scheduled for 2030-2040, so comparing the navies before and after construction of Liders and CVNs, may give different picture. Still, by 2030 Russia should operate 2 new helicopter carriers and plenty new Gorshkovs and smaller ships. While their tonnage is below Chinese destroyers, arnament and specs in general are superior. Just try to compare Kalibr and YJ-83 cruise missiles.

    Finally, the Chinese advantage of having 50 destroyers is partly offset by 75 Russian stealthy hunter-killer submarines. They make an idea of Chinese invasion impossible, while at the same time enabling Russia to destroy Chinese coastal infrastructure and fleet.

    So I still think it's safe to say Russia is and will remain world's no. 2 navy.


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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:59 pm

    The Russian (SU) Navy in the 80´s had 30+ cruisers and 50+ destroyers, plus frigates, light frigates and corvettes. Much more than this "predictions" for the chinese navy.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:10 pm

    China has no interest in the russian pacific zones. Nor Russia has any interest in the all pacific.

    They are connected to asia and europe by land which are their main partners.

    Russian pacific navy only protects SSBN and the islands that japan wants.

    This China/Russia comparison has no sense. Russia has much more strategical bombers than china which operates old tu-16 variants. In case of war they can send hundreds of cruise missiles and anti ship missiles without fearing anything from chinese air force or navy.

    China is looking to have an army able to fight in the pacific
    Against US not in the snow against Russia.

    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:06 pm

    Hole wrote:The Russian (SU) Navy in the 80´s had 30+ cruisers and 50+ destroyers, plus frigates, light frigates and corvettes. Much more than this "predictions" for the chinese navy.

    U cant compare cruisers and destroyers of 1960/70s design with modern missile-destroyers. Most cruisers in the Soviet navy was out of date already in the late 1980s. There was ongoing plans to replace these with Slava and Kirovs, however only a handfull was ever completed and today these vessels are starting to show signs of old age.
    Most of Russian naval vessels today are based upon 1980s technology and designs. About 80% av Chinas vessels are constructed since 2005 and forward.

    walle83

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:39 pm

    Kimppis wrote:verkhoturye51... China is already the number 2. While their SSN fleet is certainly not as good as Russia's... that is still obvious.

    It's very misleading to say that the Chinese Navy has not grown, nor is it actually true. China's navy was dogshit before 2010, it was always behind technologically, none of its vessels were modern (before the early 2000s). That's not the case anymore, it's the opposite. PLAN will basically be fully modern by 2020, after that it's goodbye for Pax Americana (I'm mainly talking about Western Pacific, not some global Chinese hegemony).  

    This is my rough estimate for the Chinese Navy in 2030:

    5-6 carriers
    5-6+ helicopter carriers
    10+ LPDs

    40-50+ destroyers (not an exaggeration)
    40+ frigates
    60-100 corvettes
    60 missile boats (if they keep them)

    20+ SSNs (they will technologically also more or less catch up with Russia with their Type 095, especially considering that Russia will certainly not have 20 Yasens by 2030, closer to 10 + older upgraded boats)
    60+ modern SSKs

    China's blue water capability will be stronger vis-a-vis the US in 2030 than the USSR's ever was, for the most part, maybe not in regards to SSNs, but nothing's certain.

    Comparing China's current capabilities to Russia's Syria operation is difficult, because their geography is so different, but China could certainly pull off a similar operation and then some. That is, from a similar distance to the mainland, let's not also forget that Russia had access to bases in Syria from day 1. However, I do agree that there are very few countries that could do that, but China is certainly one of them. Let's not even talk about PLAN of 2030... Those numbers above should be clear enough.

    And as has already been pointed out, by 2030 Russia will have:

    0 new carriers operational
    0-1 Liders

    I'm also not saying any of this really matters, Russia really is much less of a sea power than China, but come on now...

    Good analysis, could not agree more.

    China has this well calculated. First build and try out a few vessels (Type-51C/Type-052B/C,Type-054) and then start serial production with updated technology and weapons (Type-054A/Type-052D). Buy technology and hardware u dont have and need (Sovremenny, Varyag, Kilo). Test these systems for a few years and make updates and start build your own (Type-001A/Type-002,Type-041) Look for the future and plan your own battlegroups (Type-055, type-095).

    China has a goal and have the economy to make it come true. Russia on the other hand is more or less lost in the woods, moving from project to project without having the big picture or the economy.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:54 am

    walle83 wrote:China has a goal and have the economy to make it come true. Russia on the other hand is more or less lost in the woods, moving from project to project without having the big picture or the economy.

    What rubbish... RuN doesn't have a "big picture"? Why? because they don't ask you for your personal opinions or structure their new programs to suit your personal taste?....

    The RuN has put their priority in upgrades of the existing decent hulls, more subs, small combatants with "distributed lethality", and hypersonics. They don't need fixed wing or helo carriers in the immediate future, and they won't build large surface combatants until they have a force of new escort-class ships which which to group with.

    Don't have big picture of the economy???? FFS, surely you jest? For an economy that is under constant assault by the Western-run NWO i think they are doing surprisingly well. They have taken the blows, reconfigured and adapted, and are back in growth despite all efforts by the Exceptionalists, their public support the efforts and the gov is under ZERO PRESSURE to change course and seek to appease their antogonists.

    Don't come here with bullshit MSM talking points and expect to get a warm reception.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:05 am

    walle83 wrote:U cant compare cruisers and destroyers of 1960/70s design with modern missile-destroyers. Most cruisers in the Soviet navy was out of date already in the late 1980s. There was ongoing plans to replace these with Slava and Kirovs, however only a handfull was ever completed and today these vessels are starting to show signs of old age.
    Most of Russian naval vessels today are based upon 1980s technology and designs. About 80% av Chinas vessels are constructed since 2005 and forward.

    Ships are essentially big metal boxes that float and move around onto which you weld/bolt sensors and weapon systems. Soviet-era destroyers/cruisers like Udaloys, Slava, Kirovs etc are perfectly useful if their structurals are sound, the marine systems are adequate and their combat systems are kept updated.

    Show their age? Do know how old the average Nimitz-class CVN is? A ship is only as old as you let it become and the support that you have for its systems. Eventually the cost to support old technology becomes prohibitive and replacement becomes inevitable, but the RuN is not at that stage yet and they have a lot of life left in the selected hulls they have kept and maintained.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:41 am

    The main problem is that you really don't know the value to your economy of a powerful navy until you have a powerful navy... to realise it is worth the investment you need to invest in the hope you will get returns...

    Worked for the UK and US... and could have been useful to Japan if they had not tried to take on both the US and UK at once in WWII...


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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:42 am

    Tech is crucial part of modern navies. Russian S-400 can shot down anything flying with less then 9 Gs, even stealthy F-22 or F-35, let alone Chinese YJ-18 flying with 3 Gs.

    They can also sink all Chinese destroyers with Kalibr (soon Zircon) missiles.

    These facts aren't relevant just in the case of war. They force China to have more friendly stance on Russia, which makes Russia benefit economically, politically and diplomatically.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:47 am

    It "works" if you are prepared to use that navy to impose your dominance onto other nations and force upon them a "wealth pump" to enrich yourself at their expense. The British Empire worked this way (the RN was essential to enforce Colonial control) while Pax Amerikana uses it to assert control of international trade and prevent any challenge to petrodollar dominance.

    This doesn't apply to Russia, at least currently, and the RuN isn't going to deliver economic or geopolitical benefits and create a positive ROI. Blatant imperialism doesn't really fly these days, and the post-Colonial US version is facing stiff headwinds which will likely defeat their global mission. Russia only needs A2/AD capabilities to deter USN power projection, so they need to ignore the allure of blue-water navy testosterone addiction...

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:53 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    walle83 wrote:China has a goal and have the economy to make it come true. Russia on the other hand is more or less lost in the woods, moving from project to project without having the big picture or the economy.

    What rubbish...  RuN doesn't have a "big picture"?  Why? because they don't ask you for your personal opinions or structure their new programs to suit your personal taste?....

    The RuN has put their priority in upgrades of the existing decent hulls, more subs, small combatants with "distributed lethality", and hypersonics.  They don't need fixed wing or helo carriers in the immediate future, and they won't build large surface combatants until they have a force of new escort-class ships which which to group with.

    Don't have big picture of the economy????  FFS, surely you jest?  For an economy that is under constant assault by the Western-run NWO i think they are doing surprisingly well.  They have taken the blows, reconfigured and adapted, and are back in growth despite all efforts by the Exceptionalists, their public support the efforts and the gov is under ZERO PRESSURE to change course and seek to appease their antogonists.

    Don't come here with bullshit MSM talking points and expect to get a warm reception.

    No what i ment is that they have not a good plan how to build a modern navy. Just by looking at Russian naval construction history should make that very clear.

    And that mostly comes down to bad economic. Why do u think that Russia keeps doing these "upgrades" on older vessels? Not becouse they really want to, its becouse they dont have any other choice.

    They dont need fixed wings and helo carriers? Well probably not, but they really want to. Just look at the failed Mistral order....and they did not have new escorts there did they?

    Anyway my whole point in this debate is that Russia is not comparable and cant compete with Chinese ship building today.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:05 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Tech is crucial part of modern navies. Russian S-400 can shot down anything flying with less then 9 Gs, even stealthy F-22 or F-35, let alone Chinese YJ-18 flying with 3 Gs.

    They can also sink all Chinese destroyers with Kalibr (soon Zircon) missiles.

    These facts aren't relevant just in the case of war. They force China to have more friendly stance on Russia, which makes Russia benefit economically, politically and diplomatically.

    And China can sink all Russian vessles with their CJ-100 missiles not to mention that they are buying S-400 systems from Russia, whats your point?
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:26 am

    And China can sink all Russian vessles with their CJ-100 missiles not to mention that they are buying S-400 systems from Russia, whats your point?

    NO they can't because Russia can more easily destroy China than vice versa... Chinese population is concentrated on the coast... an easy target for nuclear missiles.

    Russia does not need a more powerful navy so it can act like the UK did or the US is... they need a more powerful navy so they can become independent of western control and US domination at sea.

    That is to say they don't need to beat or even match the west, but they need to be able to go where they want and when they want and not be bullied by the US or other nations.

    Russia needs a more powerful navy so it stops being a land locked country and becomes a global power... not so it can control other countries, but to free it from control of the EU and US.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    And China can sink all Russian vessles with their CJ-100 missiles not to mention that they are buying S-400 systems from Russia, whats your point?

    NO they can't because Russia can more easily destroy China than vice versa... Chinese population is concentrated on the coast... an easy target for nuclear missiles.


    What the hell does nuclear war have to do with sinking naval vessels?? The subject was size, capabilities and general growth rate of the different navies.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:23 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Hole wrote:The Russian (SU) Navy in the 80´s had 30+ cruisers and 50+ destroyers, plus frigates, light frigates and corvettes. Much more than this "predictions" for the chinese navy.

    U cant compare cruisers and destroyers of 1960/70s design with modern missile-destroyers. Most cruisers in the Soviet navy was out of date already in the late 1980s. There was ongoing plans to replace these with Slava and Kirovs, however only a handfull was ever completed and today these vessels are starting to show signs of old age.
    Most of Russian naval vessels today are based upon 1980s technology and designs. About 80% av Chinas vessels are constructed since 2005 and forward.

    Kimpis claimed the chinese Navy would have mor ships than the SU. He is wrong.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:The main problem is that you really don't know the value to your economy of a powerful navy until you have a powerful navy... to realise it is worth the investment you need to invest in the hope you will get returns...

    Worked for the UK and US... and could have been useful to Japan if they had not tried to take on both the US and UK at once in WWII...

    It "worked" for them because they had/have colonies. Russia doesn´t need colonies.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:27 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    And China can sink all Russian vessles with their CJ-100 missiles not to mention that they are buying S-400 systems from Russia, whats your point?

    NO they can't because Russia can more easily destroy China than vice versa... Chinese population is concentrated on the coast... an easy target for nuclear missiles.


    What the hell does nuclear war have to do with sinking naval vessels?? The subject was size, capabilities and general growth rate of the different navies.

    Without russian tech chinese ships would be empty hulls.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:17 pm

    Hole wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    And China can sink all Russian vessles with their CJ-100 missiles not to mention that they are buying S-400 systems from Russia, whats your point?

    NO they can't because Russia can more easily destroy China than vice versa... Chinese population is concentrated on the coast... an easy target for nuclear missiles.


    What the hell does nuclear war have to do with sinking naval vessels?? The subject was size, capabilities and general growth rate of the different navies.

    Without russian tech chinese ships would be empty hulls.

    15 years ago perhaps, not today.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  walle83 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:30 pm

    Hole wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Hole wrote:The Russian (SU) Navy in the 80´s had 30+ cruisers and 50+ destroyers, plus frigates, light frigates and corvettes. Much more than this "predictions" for the chinese navy.

    U cant compare cruisers and destroyers of 1960/70s design with modern missile-destroyers. Most cruisers in the Soviet navy was out of date already in the late 1980s. There was ongoing plans to replace these with Slava and Kirovs, however only a handfull was ever completed and today these vessels are starting to show signs of old age.
    Most of Russian naval vessels today are based upon 1980s technology and designs. About 80% av Chinas vessels are constructed since 2005 and forward.

    Kimpis claimed the chinese Navy would have mor ships than the SU. He is wrong.

    Thats not what he is saying, he is saying that Chinas navy will be more compareble to the US navy by 2030 in its abilities, not necessarily that it will have more vessels then the old Soviet navy.
    However it will have far more then Russia by 2030.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:39 am

    What the hell does nuclear war have to do with sinking naval vessels?? The subject was size, capabilities and general growth rate of the different navies.

    Obviously a smart one... what would stop China from sinking any Russian vessel... would it be good will, or because they are just basically internationally law abiding people... possibly, but the threat of retaliation from Russia up to and including a nuclear strike is what stops anyone from doing it from the UK and France to the US and Japan...

    More importantly the Yj-100 missile you were talking about is an subsonic anti ship missile.... Kashtan eats those for breakfast...

    Soon Zircon will make every foreign navy vulnerable...

    It "worked" for them because they had/have colonies. Russia doesn´t need colonies.

    If Russia wants free trade then they need to be able to ensure access to the worlds oceans. They wont benefit from a powerful navy as much as the UK and US have because they are not looking to loot the planet, but there are plenty of countries who want free and fair trade where both parties gain from the arrangement... not having a strong navy will limit Russias access to such trade partners.

    Look at Russian experience with transit states... Ukraine... the west would not have interfered so much in the Ukraine if it wasn't a gas transit route to europe....

    15 years ago perhaps, not today.

    Do you have evidence or just opinion?

    Thats not what he is saying, he is saying that Chinas navy will be more compareble to the US navy by 2030 in its abilities,

    Russia has the equivalent land attack capability using a few subs and a few corvettes. As they introduce new larger vessels their capacity will only increase.

    The Russian corvettes of today are comparable in C4IR to AEGIS cruisers of the cold war... can't really say the same for current US corvettes.

    the modular scalability of the Russian navy means bigger vessels will be even better with larger more powerful sensors and larger weapon loads.



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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:36 am

    Russia doesn´t need to control the oceans to trade with other countries. We are not in the 18th century anymore. Okay, the Brits and Amis think that, but the are morons. Russia wants a multipola world, so all countries together will "control" the seas, fight against pirates and so on.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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