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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

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    max steel

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:22 pm

    is it true that usa pgm bombs are unjammable ? i mean they don't rely on gps for precision guiding even if sats are down they can do their job?


    Secondly is it true that usa has made some new navigation and precision technique and their military doesn't rely solely on GPS ? I doubt it .
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    sepheronx

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:30 pm

    max steel wrote:is it true that usa pgm bombs are unjammable ? i mean they don't rely on gps for precision guiding even if sats are down they can do their job?


    Secondly is it true that usa has made some new navigation and precision technique and their military doesn't rely solely on GPS ? I doubt it .

    Most gps/glonass devices also use inertial guidance. So they could work under no satellite command, but much higher chance of missing their target.

    As for saying unjammible, that is a joke. They said same about the RQ-170 and also said it couldnt be detected due to stealth (and cost a billion), and it was landed by Iran, unharmed.

    Through enough energy at a device and you can interrupt it. With solid state components, even more so.
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    max steel

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:57 pm

    thanks for the heads up . someone said west has huge number of unjammable PGM bombs and missiles

    My another doubt : Is it true that usa has a high-volume surge rapid satellite launch capability for military satellites and an arsenal of SAT constellations pre-built and waiting to go.

    Prototype currently under construction:

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    sepheronx

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:09 pm

    People say a lot of stuff. Doesnt make them true. Laser guided munitions are neaely impossible to jam, so they could be talking about those. Radar guided are jammable. Optical guided are not. So on so forth.
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    max steel

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:18 pm

    sepheronx wrote:People say a lot of stuff. Doesnt make them true. Laser guided munitions are neaely impossible to jam, so they could be talking about those. Radar guided are jammable. Optical guided are not. So on so forth.


    ok but does usa uses laser guided munitions ? I heard they use gps guided munition .


    Your thoughts on my 3rd doubt ?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:28 pm

    max steel wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:People say a lot of stuff. Doesnt make them true. Laser guided munitions are neaely impossible to jam, so they could be talking about those. Radar guided are jammable. Optical guided are not. So on so forth.


    ok but does usa uses laser guided munitions ? I heard they use gps guided munition .


    Your thoughts on my 3rd doubt ?

    Dont know what you are saying on last part, as I cant view youtube videos at work, but yes, US does use laser guided munitions, and TV guided ones too. So does Russia. I remember when during the bombings of Serajevo, the US were dropping gps guided bombs and Chinese embassy used cheap gps jammers that messed with the US bombs big time.

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    kvs

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:44 am

    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:Bombs are so obsolete.  Having 4 of them is just inane.  It would be better if they mounted some cruise missiles instead.  
    Hypersonic or subsonic.

    It does not look like those mounting points could hold 500 kg or higher bombs.  

    Price of cruise missile 0,8-2mil USD, 500kg bomb - 10.000 + GPS/laser guidance 10-20k. Amount of smart ammunition used in war, even modern one is just a fraction of total gravity bombs dropped.

    Those are US prices and totally irrelevant. Also, what sort of idiots would use hard points to mount four small bombs.
    If they are going to use such bombs then they need a proper bomb bay where they can have dozens of them in cassettes.
    Even some sort of cassette system on the hard points would make more sense but it would be too heavy if it held a
    good number of bombs. An aircraft like that truly requires missiles on its hard points.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:49 am

    sepheronx wrote:People say a lot of stuff. Doesnt make them true. Laser guided munitions are neaely impossible to jam, so they could be talking about those. Radar guided are jammable. Optical guided are not. So on so forth.

    In principle you can jam a laser guided device by sending a laser beam into its optics. This requires a rather sophisticated dynamic
    aiming system sitting close to its target point. I guess high value assets could have such systems. But I have not heard of any
    such systems actually built.
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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:57 am

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:Bombs are so obsolete.  Having 4 of them is just inane.  It would be better if they mounted some cruise missiles instead.  
    Hypersonic or subsonic.

    It does not look like those mounting points could hold 500 kg or higher bombs.  

    Price of cruise missile 0,8-2mil USD, 500kg bomb - 10.000 + GPS/laser guidance 10-20k. Amount of smart ammunition used in war, even modern one is just a fraction of total gravity bombs dropped.

    Those are US prices and totally irrelevant.   Also, what sort of idiots would use hard points to mount four small bombs.
    If they are going to use such bombs then they need a proper bomb bay where they can have dozens of them in cassettes.
    Even some sort of cassette system on the hard points would make more sense but it would be too heavy if it held a
    good number of bombs.  An aircraft like that truly requires missiles on its hard points.

    That depends alot on enemy that you fight, cruise missiles are expencive no matter the origin and you will try to preserve them to be used aganist high value targets, while i do agree that mounts for multiple bombs should be used on such platform and bombs should be of gliding design. US is using triple-ejector racks for a B-52 to drop GBU30s for an example applying one 250kg bomb per hardpoint doesnt make much sense but thats what Russians mostly do, i still havent seen multiple ejector racks on Russian platforms in widespread use meanwhile on the West they use them on almost every platform.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:55 am

    During WWII the British and Americans would send 1,000 bombers day and night over several days just to hit one factory... quite often the nearby town was devastated but the factory sustained only minor damage and could continue production within hours and another attack needed to be mounted.

    With PAK FA the four bombs would be used against four separate targets and would hit the specific part of the target most vulnerable and therefore also the most difficult to fix/repair/replace.

    Modern aircraft wont need lots and lots of bombs... they will just need accurate ones.

    In comparison in the early 1980s the low level strike capability of the Soviet Union would consist of Su-17s, MiG-27s, and Su-24s. Today that same role could be performed by a single MiG-29SMT or MiG-35 or Su-35 or Su-34 or Su-30.

    In a few years time it will be a single PAK FA.

    The difference is that dozens of Su-17s would be sent to deal with a problem like a bridge... and today a single MiG-29SMT with a guided missile like Kh-29 could take out that same bridge. The PAK FA will take out the bridge and the bridge further down the river with its two Grom missiles in its front weapons bay, and also two enemy radars using two Kh-58s in the rear weapon bay and also shoot down a couple of enemy aircraft with its two AAMs in the wing mounted weapon bay...


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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:08 am

    GarryB wrote:During WWII the British and Americans would send 1,000 bombers day and night over several days just to hit one factory... quite often the nearby town was devastated but the factory sustained only minor damage and could continue production within hours and another attack needed to be mounted.

    With PAK FA the four bombs would be used against four separate targets and would hit the specific part of the target most vulnerable and therefore also the most difficult to fix/repair/replace.

    Modern aircraft wont need lots and lots of bombs... they will just need accurate ones.

    In comparison in the early 1980s the low level strike capability of the Soviet Union would consist of Su-17s, MiG-27s, and Su-24s. Today that same role could be performed by a single MiG-29SMT or MiG-35 or Su-35 or Su-34 or Su-30.

    In a few years time it will be a single PAK FA.

    The difference is that dozens of Su-17s would be sent to deal with a problem like a bridge... and today a single MiG-29SMT with a guided missile like Kh-29 could take out that same bridge. The PAK FA will take out the bridge and the bridge further down the river with its two Grom missiles in its front weapons bay, and also two enemy radars using two Kh-58s in the rear weapon bay and also shoot down a couple of enemy aircraft with its two AAMs in the wing mounted weapon bay...

    Right.

    Actually it's not a well-known fact, but much of the devastation seen in Nagasaki was due to that same inaccuracy. The Americans were targeting a military factory of some kind; however the bomb landed several km's from its target... smack in the middle of the most populated area of the city.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:26 am

    In comparison in the early 1980s the low level strike capability of the Soviet Union would consist of Su-17s, MiG-27s, and Su-24s. Today that same role could be performed by a single MiG-29SMT or MiG-35 or Su-35 or Su-34 or Su-30.

    In a few years time it will be a single PAK FA.

    Mig29/35, Su-35/30 and especially Su-34/24 already can destroy several bridges with guided and unguided weaponary, no need for a PAK-FA, actually they can destroy more bridges than a PAK-FA ever could if its internal bay weapons limit.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:During WWII the British and Americans would send 1,000 bombers day and night over several days just to hit one factory... quite often the nearby town was devastated but the factory sustained only minor damage and could continue production within hours and another attack needed to be mounted(...)

    Right.

    Actually it's not a well-known fact, but much of the devastation seen in Nagasaki was due to that same inaccuracy. The Americans were targeting a military factory of some kind; however the bomb landed several km's from its target... smack in the middle of the most populated area of the city.

    Rather than technical issues named "accuracy", the core problem which caused the tragedy of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Khâm Thiên, Bạch Mai... is the inhuman and savage doctrine of killing as many human as possible, to instill terror and fear into the people's heart by causing unimaginable war crimes and mass killing.

    That is the reason why the U.S. continued to use carpet bombing in Vietnam, while in the USSR people started to put guided missile on strategic bombers.

    It is clear, carpet bombing is ineffective against military fortification due to the high scattering and inaccuracy. Even A-shape tunnels can be designed to withstand the power of carpet bombing. But civillian settlements are vulnerable and countless amount of civillians are killed by carpet bombing.

    In other words, the Pentagon was using the tactics which is ineffective to destroy fighting positions, but very effective in killing normal civillians and causing horrible war crimes.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:09 am

    GarryB wrote:During WWII the British and Americans would send 1,000 bombers day and night over several days just to hit one factory... quite often the nearby town was devastated but the factory sustained only minor damage and could continue production within hours and another attack needed to be mounted.

    With PAK FA the four bombs would be used against four separate targets and would hit the specific part of the target most vulnerable and therefore also the most difficult to fix/repair/replace.

    Modern aircraft wont need lots and lots of bombs... they will just need accurate ones.

    In comparison in the early 1980s the low level strike capability of the Soviet Union would consist of Su-17s, MiG-27s, and Su-24s. Today that same role could be performed by a single MiG-29SMT or MiG-35 or Su-35 or Su-34 or Su-30.

    In a few years time it will be a single PAK FA.

    The difference is that dozens of Su-17s would be sent to deal with a problem like a bridge... and today a single MiG-29SMT with a guided missile like Kh-29 could take out that same bridge. The PAK FA will take out the bridge and the bridge further down the river with its two Grom missiles in its front weapons bay, and also two enemy radars using two Kh-58s in the rear weapon bay and also shoot down a couple of enemy aircraft with its two AAMs in the wing mounted weapon bay...

    But you still have to agree that for prolonged CAS missions you will want to carry 3x250kg laser guided bombs on one hardpoint rather than just 1, amount paired with high accuracy of the platform (whatever that platform is, PAK FA if you like it) would increase efficiency couple times. That way instead of sending 6 SU34s on CAS mission you can send 2 coz they are not flying with half of max warload due to hardpoints being taken by single warheads (whatever they are bombs, missiles, gliding bombs).
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:17 am

    But you still have to agree that for prolonged CAS missions you will want to carry 3x250kg laser guided bombs on one hardpoint rather than just 1, amount paired with high accuracy of the platform (whatever that platform is, PAK FA if you like it) would increase efficiency couple times. That way instead of sending 6 SU34s on CAS mission you can send 2 coz they are not flying with half of max warload due to hardpoints being taken by single warheads (whatever they are bombs, missiles, gliding bombs).

    Would never send Su-34s on CAS missions.

    Personally I think the solution on the Su-25TM with two wing pylons carrying 16 Hermes guided missiles with 20km range and 30kg HE warheads would be an ideal option for a range of point targets...


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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:05 am

    You know, Herme's has been talked about and mentioned for years, and we have not seen a single piece of its existence. I am starting to doubt its existence and think that it is an abandoned project. Heck, I think mention of Hermes has been around longer than PAK FA's.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    But you still have to agree that for prolonged CAS missions you will want to carry 3x250kg laser guided bombs on one hardpoint rather than just 1, amount paired with high accuracy of the platform (whatever that platform is, PAK FA if you like it) would increase efficiency couple times. That way instead of sending 6 SU34s on CAS mission you can send 2 coz they are not flying with half of max warload due to hardpoints being taken by single warheads (whatever they are bombs, missiles, gliding bombs).

    Would never send Su-34s on CAS missions.

    Personally I think the solution on the Su-25TM with two wing pylons carrying 16 Hermes guided missiles with 20km range and 30kg HE warheads would be an ideal option for a range of point targets...

    SU25s wont be around forever, there will be most likely a stopgap where SU34 will be the only platfom for CAS till new dedicated CAS platfom appears (if any, since many people argue now if pure platforms like that are needed anymore due to drone expansion), also SU34 is partially made to be used for CAS same as F15E, US used it very often to suplement A10 in such missions.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:24 pm

    There was talk a while back, Pak Sha, as replacement for Su-25's in service. I imagine due to budget constraints, that wont happen but a Su-25 restart production as the Ulan Ude plant apparently builds/built the dual seaters could. Add in tech from Su-25T program and you would have an advance cas aircraft.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:27 pm


    You know, Herme's has been talked about and mentioned for years, and we have not seen a single piece of its existence. I am starting to doubt its existence and think that it is an abandoned project. Heck, I think mention of Hermes has been around longer than PAK FA's.

    Oh yeah of little faith...

    http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/multi-service-weapon-systems

    SU25s wont be around forever, there will be most likely a stopgap where SU34 will be the only platfom for CAS till new dedicated CAS platfom appears (if any, since many people argue now if pure platforms like that are needed anymore due to drone expansion), also SU34 is partially made to be used for CAS same as F15E, US used it very often to suplement A10 in such missions.

    I don't know of any Army Aviation units operating Su-34s at the moment.

    The Su-25s are all getting upgrades and there are plans for a replacement aircraft, so i rather doubt they will transfer Su-34s to Army Aviation any time soon.

    The Su-34 would be too fast to operate with Mils and Kamovs anyway.


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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:36 pm

    SU25s wont be around forever, there will be most likely a stopgap where SU34 will be the only platfom for CAS till new dedicated CAS platfom appears (if any, since many people argue now if pure platforms like that are needed anymore due to drone expansion), also SU34 is partially made to be used for CAS same as F15E, US used it very often to suplement A10 in such missions.

    I don't know of any Army Aviation units operating Su-34s at the moment.

    The Su-25s are all getting upgrades and there are plans for a replacement aircraft, so i rather doubt they will transfer Su-34s to Army Aviation any time soon.

    The Su-34 would be too fast to operate with Mils and Kamovs anyway.[/quote]

    I thought Russian SU25s are in the Air force atm? Yeah i am aware they are getting update but still they will serve for how much after update 10-15 years max, i belive most of them were built 25 years ago? And replacement is just been in talks till now since Jak131 was refused some years ago.

    Well US didnt use F15E as low altitude CAS together with AH64s, but somewhat of a standoff platform using only high precision ammunition while A10s would go low, however on other hand SU34s have certain amount of armor on them so they would be more suitable to "get down there" than F15E is. I mean F35 is imo far less suitable for CAS missions than SU34 and still it is being marketed as A10 replacement to the USAF.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:01 am

    I thought Russian SU25s are in the Air force atm?

    Army Aviation is currently part of the air force...

    Su-34 is part of long range aviation... DA... not FA or VVS.


    [quote]Yeah i am aware they are getting update but still they will serve for how much after update 10-15 years max, i belive most of them were built 25 years ago? And replacement is just been in talks till now since Jak131 was refused some years ago. [/qutoe]

    there was talk in Russia and the US about replacing their cheap simple CAS aircraft with already in service aircraft. The US went for the A-16, which was a variant of the F-16 and it failed miserably. The Russians explored using a version of the Yak-130 and it failed too.

    hense the current plan is upgrades of the Su-25 and later a brand new replacement model called PAK SHa.

    Well US didnt use F15E as low altitude CAS together with AH64s, but somewhat of a standoff platform using only high precision ammunition while A10s would go low, however on other hand SU34s have certain amount of armor on them so they would be more suitable to "get down there" than F15E is. I mean F35 is imo far less suitable for CAS missions than SU34 and still it is being marketed as A10 replacement to the USAF.

    What the F-15E does a MiG-29SMT could offer to do but at the end of the day the ground forces want their own aircraft coming in low and fast and dealing with the enemy... they don't want some high flying jock who delivers 500kg bombs close to the front line that could land on the enemy or friendly forces... they want smaller lighter weapons more accurately placed...

    Who knows... with modern guided artillery with each unit and attack helos they might not need CAS aircraft... some UCAV might perform the role... but so far we just haven't seen it.


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    russian air force

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:04 pm

    Army Aviation is currently part of the air force...

    Su-34 is part of long range aviation... DA... not FA or VVS.

    That is not much of an issue due to todays joint command.

    there was talk in Russia and the US about replacing their cheap simple CAS aircraft with already in service aircraft. The US went for the A-16, which was a variant of the F-16 and it failed miserably. The Russians explored using a version of the Yak-130 and it failed too.

    hense the current plan is upgrades of the Su-25 and later a brand new replacement model called PAK SHa.

    Yes, i remember that well, Mig AT derivate, Yak131 and that Sukhoi two cockpit monster i forgot its designation. I recall A16 it had huge issues with cannon, they used them during Desert Storm but only as missile platforms since cannon wasnt very safe to be used. This is first time i hear about PAK SH-a to be honest, i assume it will be something based on Jak130? US might start using Textan Scoprion in CAS role, it seems to be quite cheap platform, extremly cheap actually, somewhat of the JF17 Thunder price.


    What the F-15E does a MiG-29SMT could offer to do but at the end of the day the ground forces want their own aircraft coming in low and fast and dealing with the enemy... they don't want some high flying jock who delivers 500kg bombs close to the front line that could land on the enemy or friendly forces... they want smaller lighter weapons more accurately placed...

    Who knows... with modern guided artillery with each unit and attack helos they might not need CAS aircraft... some UCAV might perform the role... but so far we just haven't seen it.

    Mmm... yeaah i guess Mig29SMT could do so but SU34s armed with someting like Brimstone with dual seekers or that Russian future Hermes would be insane platform, it has 12 hardpoints i belive, but lets say 10 would be able to hold triple Brimstone launcher.. thats 30 missiles that wont just drop anywhere like 500kg bomb, but with 1m CEP, i am not saying it should be only CAS platfom, but it could be very good in this role in some bigger scale combat. Still some very cheap platform that would use unguded ammunition would be required. Well, there were talks about developing UCAV on the Jak130 platform, or if they ever finish Mig SKAT, those two could be used for CAS imo.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:16 am

    Hopefully not a repost:


    http://saidpvo.livejournal.com/447810.html#cutid1
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    mack8

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  mack8 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:56 pm

    Very nice pictures of Sukhois old and new during recent live-fire exercises:
    http://warlock-fe.livejournal.com/17947.html
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    franco

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  franco on Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:35 pm

    Photos of aircraft participating in training out of Dzemgi;

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://topwar.ru/82676-v-gosti-na-poligon.html&usg=ALkJrhhjF8QMM7UsF5QheL5i8hMEHj1N-Q

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

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