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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:07 am

    18 billion for 126?!?! That is lot worse than I honestly expected. I though it would include potential add on orders, and the initial deal was for 11 billion. Hopefully India is getting a lot of extras in this deal, as it should not be footing any of the development and research. Of course, kickbacks and indigenous production set up are a big part of the deal, hopefully the money recycles into India.

    Indeed a second follow on of 48 Su-35C is expect after the 1st batch is complete. Will be interesting how much that deal is for. Also how much the Su-30SM will be from Irkut.

    Austin

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    Russian Air Force

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:28 am

    Well there is the cost involved in some Transfer of Technology and setting up production to build most of Rafale in India , a new factory will be build ..... then take into account machines need to be imported , training manpower etc

    I will be surprised if they can get all that at $11 billion considering Western aircraft be it Rafale or Typhoon are darn expensive bird.

    And if you see the cost of 500 Mica we purchased for Mirage upgrade it costed us $1.2 billion.

    French equipment are quite reliable but they are quite costly.
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    Bthebrave

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Bthebrave on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:31 am

    Now that is some very good news, -if it will be realized-. Air power is very important to me. And Mother Russia, unlike the US is perfectly capable of producing some excellent off-the-shelf fighter aircraft. Don't you just instantly fall in love with the Su-35BM? Equipmentwise, the Russian Air Force would be more then perfectly served with this bird. Sukhoi is soooo number one.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:33 am

    Personally I have gone through a bit of a roller coaster regarding the looks of Russian and Soviet fighters...

    I loved the WWII models... especially the La-5FN and La-11, but also the Mig-3 and Yak-9.

    With their post war models there was a tendency for winged tubes like the Mig-21 and Su-9 and Su-11 and Su-17 and at the time I got a little bored with the shapes, though I loved the Mig-25 shape, the other tube places seemed a little boring.

    Then in the Mig-23 and then Mig-29 and Su-27 were revealed and it was so exciting because they were so different.

    Even today I love the lines of the newer aircraft, but have started to appreciate the older tube planes too, plus of course the odd fighters like the Su-15 and the Tu-128...

    I am beginning to warm to their drive for high technology everywhere and hope it expands into a national thing where technology spreads beyond the boundaries of Moscow and into the small villages. I am talking about green technology like solar power and wind power generation.
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    Bthebrave

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Bthebrave on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:00 am


    I'm not really in to ancient tech. I'm in love with Su-35Sexy. Dear Santa.....
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:48 am

    I think part of my interest in old tech is to appreciate how far we have come in such a short time.

    I mean really... if you think about it... the first fixed wing aircraft to fly in 1900 or so, and then leaving the earths atmosphere less than one human lifetime later to stand on the moon...
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    Bthebrave

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Bthebrave on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think part of my interest in old tech is to appreciate how far we have come in such a short time.

    I mean really... if you think about it... the first fixed wing aircraft to fly in 1900 or so, and then leaving the earths atmosphere less than one human lifetime later to stand on the moon...

    Around 70 years isn't exactly a short time in military terms Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:59 am

    Just another example of development.

    How many thousands of years was the short sword and the bow state of the art...
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    George1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:50 pm

    SU-30M/M2/35S role is more air defence i think
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:44 am

    The two seat Su-30 cold be good as a multirole interceptor/strike aircraft with pilot in the front seat and weapons operator in the back either operating the radar looking for aircraft, or using radar or EOs to scan for ground targets to engage.

    From medium altitude it can engage enemy aircraft and enemy ground targets as they appear.

    The Su-30 and Su-30M were operated bu the PVO and were intended as miniawacs aircraft using their large powerful radars to scan for targets that would be engaged by smaller radar silent fighters operating closer to the enemy.
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    George1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:11 am

    GarryB wrote:The two seat Su-30 cold be good as a multirole interceptor/strike aircraft with pilot in the front seat and weapons operator in the back either operating the radar looking for aircraft, or using radar or EOs to scan for ground targets to engage.

    From medium altitude it can engage enemy aircraft and enemy ground targets as they appear.

    The Su-30 and Su-30M were operated bu the PVO and were intended as miniawacs aircraft using their large powerful radars to scan for targets that would be engaged by smaller radar silent fighters operating closer to the enemy.

    That means that the role of Su-30 in RuAF is different than the role of its counterpart F-15E in USAF
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    medo

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:45 pm

    That means that the role of Su-30 in RuAF is different than the role of its counterpart F-15E in USAF
    [quote]

    I think for now yes. For now the role of F-15E is doing Su-24 and every year it will be more and more in hands of Su-34. Su-30 in RuAF is air defense fighter with air refueling capabilities and two member crew. For now Su-30M2 work with Su-27SM, what means Su-30 is for longer range patroling or for longer time with air refueling.

    We will see what plane will be Su-30SM from Irkutsk, which RuAF also order. I think it will still be more air defense fighter, that could be also used for ground attack role when needed.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:01 am

    They previously only used the Su-30 within the PVO AFAIK and they had no air to ground capability and were not intended for such a role.

    They have ordered Su-30s, but it is not clear if they intend to use them in the swing role or just use their fighter capabilities.

    When Russia withdrew all its single engine fighters/fighter bombers/light strike aircraft Frontal Aviation lost a lot of bomb carriers. The Su-17/20/22, the Mig-27, the Mig-15, and the Mig-21 and Mig-23 were all used in swing roles where they carried dumb bombs after the enemy air force was cleared from the sky.

    Of course an Su-30MKK with laser guided bombs will be superior in performance to any of those old single engine types in terms of weapons and range and precision.

    I see in the Russian news that they are working on a new CAS aircraft to replace the Su-25 that will be in service in 2020 and will have some stealth characteristics.
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    George1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    When Russia withdrew all its single engine fighters/fighter bombers/light strike aircraft Frontal Aviation lost a lot of bomb carriers. The Su-17/20/22, the Mig-27, the Mig-15, and the Mig-21 and Mig-23 were all used in swing roles where they carried dumb bombs after the enemy air force was cleared from the sky.


    MiG-35 can be used in swing roles. I think it is the best multirole aircraft in Russian air force. Maybe there is no need to procure a 5th generation light fighter. MiG-35 could do the job and enter the Russian air-force in big numbers without delays as the F-35 in USAF
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:57 pm

    At this point, ordering Su-35 would probably be cheaper.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:19 pm

    The Mig-35 could probably go into production in 2014 and they will probably buy about 50 or 70 in total, and that would be good for Mig as they would get production experience, and be able to test new stuff.

    I really don't think less than 100 Mig-35s will be able to replace the thousands of single engined fighter bombers that they have lost.

    I agree that for now making a 5th gen light fighter doesn't make sense and the question should be looked at again in about 2016 or so with a view to the new aircraft entering service in 2022-2025. At that time they will have PAK FA in service in numbers and most of their legasy aircraft (Mig-29s, Su-27s, Mig-31s) that haven't been upgraded will need to be scrapped and replaced.

    The Su-35, Mig-35, and Su-34 will be formidable support aircraft for the PAK FA, but I also think that by the 2020s that NATO will have more stealth fighters (F-35s) than the number of PAK FAs that Russia could afford could deal with.

    I think the Su-35 will be a very capable opponent for the F-35, and in many areas will be superior, but by 2020 I would hope that Russian aircraft technology will have reached a level where it was ready to make a genuine light 5th gen fighter that is affordable and able to foot it with the best.

    It will be a practical aircraft that while perhaps not cheap to buy will be cheap to operate and effective for all those bomb truck roles you would never risk a PAK FA for.

    A small light 5th gen fighter could be used as a light recon aircraft, precision attack, fighter, jammer... the number of roles it will be able to perform will be broad.

    In many ways it will be a stealthy F-16... in the USAF when F-15C fighters are available the F-16 is a bomb truck. For European AFs that have F-16s as their only fighter it is fighter and bomb truck and everything else.

    At this point, ordering Su-35 would probably be cheaper.

    Not in the long term.

    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.

    An official... I think it was Rogozin said recently that competition for the PAK FA now would make Sukhoi work harder and result in a better product. Obviously there is no domestic competition for PAK FA now and there wont be... the Mig light 5th gen fighter will compliment rather than compete.

    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    ...BTW it would be cheaper to only buy Mi-28s, but it would not be better.
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:39 pm

    Setting up MiG-35 production, modernizing the production line, fixing all the problems with system supplier quantity and quality, would probably cost as much as any deficit in Su-35 vs MIG-35 exploitation costs. Add to that training for yet another type, spares for another type, etc, I still think more Su-35 is easier at this point.
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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:47 am

    Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.
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    George1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:58 am

    GarryB wrote:
    In most of western Russia most Su-27s operate with 3/4ths empty fuel tanks, which is a bit like using an An-124 to deliver 6 tons of post. For many units a Mig-29 sized aircraft is a more efficient choice, and having an alternative to a Sukhoi fighter is good for competition.


    GarryB wrote:
    It would also make rather more sense using Mig-35s in support of Army units through frontal aviation than to use Su-35s.

    The Mig-35 would be more suited to frontal aviation units than the Su-35, the latter would be more useful for air superiority missions over much larger areas.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Even in the East can deal with China's J-10 with no problem.
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Easier is not better.

    Sukhoi will be making hundreds of Su-35s and will be tooling up for PAK FAs shortly, so it is going to be pretty busy.

    Mig are making Mig-29Ks, which are quite sophisticated aircraft but not Mig-35s.

    Keep in mind if the Mig-35 is ordered it could potentially beat the PAK FA into service and be the first Russian fighter with an operational AESA radar.

    We are not just talking about Mig... we are talking about the makers of radars for Mig, the makers of engines for Mig aircraft etc etc.

    It will not be a serious burden to have Mig-35s and Su-35s and PAK FAs and Mig-31s all in service at once as each has a niche where they are better than the other options, and there is value in getting the production factories for Mig up to date... in 2020-2025 they will need to have some sort of light fighter... whether it is manned or unmanned we can't tell from this time frame, but from what I have read the Mig 5th gen light fighter is probably the best option.

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    The only thing IMO the MiG-35 has going for it is 1.) job support 2.) keeping a factory from going down the drain 3.) takes off load from knaapo.
    I don't think it would be cheaper to order MiG-35, but they would be able to start production (hopefully) before the first 48 Su-35s are delivered. I wouldn't actually mind seeing MiG-35 ordered as stop gap to fill up numbers, but I would rather just see more Su-35C. Like I said, I highly suspect any operational advantage would be thrown away by the modernization/ramp up needed to have timely/quality mass production. I don't think it would be difficult to ramp up yearly Su-35 production to ~25 post 2015, if the money and desire for more fighters pre-PAKFA is there.
    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking? We will be lucky if RuAF orders more than 100 before 2020. There is of course potential for exports, but it is unlikely to be huge.


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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 am

    It is better when easier is also cheaper. RuAF has a limited budget, and much to do.

    Perfectly true, but what makes you think the Mig-35 will cost more than an Su-35?

    I would suggest that unless they only make a dozen or so that the Mig-35 will work out cheaper than the Su-35, and I am pretty sure operational costs will be lower for the smaller aircraft.

    The Mig-35 will also have the advantage of an AESA radar.

    Where the army units are going to attack in a future conflict ? Caucasus and West Europe. MiG-35 will have to face Typhoons and F-16. I think can do air-defense and attack roles quite successful.

    Frontal Aviation operates over the front line... it doesn't matter whether it is attack or defence.

    It wont just operate Mig-35s, it will operate a range of aircraft to control the airspace over the battlefield.

    Hundreds of Su-35s, Garry are you sure that's not wishful thinking?

    How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch.

    There is value in giving work to Mig, there is value in reducing pressure on Sukhoi production capacity, there is value in retaining competition in fighter companies.

    I think the Mig-35 is the most vastly underrated fighter today... the T-90AM is everything a T-72 could be and I think the Mig-35 is everything the Mig-29 could be.

    I think Sukhois success post cold war has been largely political and that Mig look from the outside to have done the work for little reward.

    The Su-33 is a good example... it is a slightly strengthened Su-27 with folding bits and a tailhook. The Mig-29K was almost a complete redesign of the Mig-29 that was fully multirole from the outset and able to use the latest weapons.

    Eventually Sukhoi came up with the Su-33KUB, but the fact that Mig got the contract for Indian Mig-29Ks meant they were the cheapest option for the Russian Navy too.
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    TR1

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:54 pm

    "How many Flanker export customers are there? Obviously India will want to upgrade via the PAK FA, but other Flanker operators will want Su-35s by 2018... by 2022 or so Russia will likely be ready to export slightly downgraded Su-35s to China... if they order a large enough batch."

    Well that is just the issue, because of thr Su-30 success, I don't see Su-35 doing as well. The air forces that operate the more advanced variants, like India and Malaysia, have all signaled intent to upgrade their planes. Getting Su-35 isn't worth it/doesn't make sense for then. We can probably count Algeria in this sense as well. The existing customers that I could see going for Su-35 are one who operate less advanced Su-30s, like Venezuela, or Vietnam. But in those cases they can't afford huge air forces in general, and Su-35 ain't cheap, so they may just got for more upgraded Su-30s.
    China doesn't want the Su-35 at this point (though no doubt they would love to get their hands on several), let alone a downgraded one later this decade.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:42 am

    Russia to Rebuild Military Airfields near NATO Borders

    RIA Novosti

    18:36 22/02/2012 KALININGRAD, February 22 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry will modernize two airfields in its Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad, Commander of the Baltic Fleet Vice Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Wednesday.

    “We are planning to increase the length of the runway to 3,500 meters at the airfield in Chkalovsk so that it would be able to receive any kind of aircraft, including Boeings and Airbuses,” Chirkov said.

    The reconstruction will take about two years.

    The Defense Ministry is also planning to rebuild an abandoned Soviet-era airfield for hydroplanes on the Baltic Spit.

    The admiral said the Baltic Fleet will have at least four amphibious aircraft for reconnaissance and search-and-rescue missions by March 2013.

    The importance of the Kaliningrad exclave, surrounded by NATO members Lithuania and Poland, to Russia’s national security has grown considerably in the past few years as Moscow searches for ways to counter the European missile shield.

    Russia has recently activated a long-range radar in the region and is planning to deploy S-400 Triumf air defense systems and Iskander (SS-26 Stone) tactical missile systems there in the near future.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120222-rianovosti03.htm

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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:12 am

    That is good news, especially regarding the hydroplanes.

    Hopefully they will order a dozen of so and deploy some to the Caspian and Black Sea Fleets too.
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    GarryB

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    RuAF fighters role

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:36 am

    Well I am forever the optimist...

    I think as the F-35 gets more expensive and the schedule gets pushed back, and the performance limitations of export models becomes clearer that several Air Forces will look to save a bit of money.

    I would think that for countries buying Su-30s, who are suddenly faced with F-35s in their regions might suddenly decide that an Su-35 that is optimised to hunt stealth aircraft might be a much cheaper option than going full stealth themselves (ie PAK FA).

    I am sure that the US would love to have production facilities of the F-15 still open and able to upgrade it to current and near future levels of technology.

    In fact I would think many in the USAF are getting a bit nervious about buying 3,000 odd F-35s to pretty much replace everything except their F-22s and that new build cheaper 4+ generation aircraft that are proven to be able to do the job would let them sleep better at night.

    If there is only a market for 48 for the Russian AF and perhaps a dozen more for export then there is little point in even bothering to make them.

    Personally I think that they will likely end up with a force that looks something like this:

    200 PAK FA
    96 Su-35s
    96 Su-30s
    48 Mig-29s (C and SMT)
    48 Mig-35s
    120 Mig-31s


    By 2022 they will have a light 5th gen fighter that will replace the Flankers and the Fulcrums and free up some Pak Fas to assist with the aerospace defence role.

    In his recent speeches Putin mentioned the priorities for defence and he said strategic missiles, aerospace defence as number one and number two...

    Based on that I think there might be a version of the PAK FA that is custom designed for the long range interception role, or their might be a dedicated design.

    The fact that they are working on a new CAS design for 2020 suggests that for specific roles they see a value in a customised design.

    I think the interception role requires a separate design from a 5th gen stealth fighter.

    My opinion of course.

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