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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:57 pm

    Worst decision ever.
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    Post  Guest on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:26 pm

    Isos wrote:Worst decision ever.

    It would rust away by early 2000s, there was no money... people were fighting over last pack of butter in supermarkets in the center of Moscow back then. It might look today as bad decision but at that time it was the only one...
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:54 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:Worst decision ever.

    It would rust away by early 2000s, there was no money... people were fighting over last pack of butter in supermarkets in the center of Moscow back then. It might look today as bad decision but at that time it was the only one...

    PtG and some akulas were made in the 90s.

    They could have finished this one for Russia. They had all the well trained soviet workers there that could have finished the ship in three years easily. But it was in Ukrainian shipyards so who knows if they would have give it to russia. They scrapped tu-22 and tu-160 instead of giving it to Russia but also sold some.

    It was possible IMO.
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    Post  kvs on Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:04 pm

    Gazputin wrote:what do you expect if Ukrainians built it …. Smile

    read somewhere the boilers on board run on low quality "Mazut" ….basically unpurified diesel
    so you get lots of smoke when you hit the accelerator ….

    lets face it Ukrainians despite all this twaddle about being "ethnically different" are just a bunch of poor Russians with "country boy accents"
    "Ukraine" literally means "border land" ….

    and the Mazut is probably what Ukraine used most of the time … being poor country hicks ….

    probably the refit is to tune it to use better quality fuel ….. it would make sense


    The vast majority of global shipping uses "mazut". No ship operator with a brain would burn premium fuels like diesel when they can
    use lower grades that the giant ship "diesels" can handle. Ship diesels can burn Orimulsion without processing. Orimulsion is the
    Venezuelan Orinoco basin bitumen emulsified in water. Try running that in a car or truck diesel and see what happens. Ship diesels
    have low rpm and enough heat (large volume to surface area ratio compared to the small engines found in land vehicles) in the pistons
    to basically upgrade orimulsion into lighter hydrocarbon grades in situ.

    As far as Ukrainians being Russians. The rabid Russia hating Ukrs are actually a blend of Polak, Romanian, Slovak and believe it or
    not some Tatar genes. Don't even try to extrapolate a Russian from an Ukr.


    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:14 pm

    Isos wrote:Worst decision ever.

    No real money had been put into it yet. Steel cutting is the cheapest part. The worst decision ever was cutting R&D for engine development.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:27 am

    On a CVN steam cats make more sense as they can re-use the steam and is much cheaper than EMALs to develop. The US is spending billions on it, we could reverse engineer a steam catapult for a million.

    But the technology developing EMALS would be useful... and AFAIK they never actually had an operational steam cat system so it is not like they just need to put it on a ship and start using it... so in that sense there needs to be serious development work to create either and EMALS offers technology in electronics and magnets and plasma... steam cats offer technology in plumbing... and the pumps for fuels etc in modern rockets means they probably already have much of that technology so no real improvements to be gained from using it.

    Once Russia has a moon base... manned or unmanned... an EMALS system could be used to return material to earth orbit very very cheaply.

    And it would make sense anyway to reverse engineer a steam catapult and build a launching system based on it either in Saki or in Yevsk, especially to learn more about its operations and compare it with the to be developed EMALS (having maybe instead in the other site a prototype for the EMALS launcher.

    Building both systems just to test them against each other would be a waste. I am sure Concern Kalashnikov will not be starting with flintlock weapons to develop a replacement for the RPK LMG... technology can move backwards but you need a really good reason for doing so to actually do it.

    Apparently there was already a steam catapult prototype in NITKA anyway, built to test the system that should have been installed in the Ulyanovsk.

    AFAIK they have no aircraft able to use it... if it is even functional.

    Wasnt Ulyanovsk scrapped while hull was 30% finished?

    Yes, that is what I was trying to say... the Ks were design with ski jump launch only, while the U was supposed to add steam cats but was never finished and the Nitka base hasn't used steam cats even if there are some there because they don't have any aircraft that could use cat launch systems AFAIK.

    EM cats have a lot of huge advantages, but also a lot of technical challenges... but these technical challenges like handling and transfering and storing large amounts of electrical energy... super magnets, plasmas, etc etc will be useful in a wide range of other areas of weapons and space and aircraft...

    One of the best ways to redirect a large object in space from hitting the earth is not to blow it up... if you blow it up its gravity means most of the material would fall back and reform the same weight object that is still going to hit the earth... one solution would be to land a small mining robot with an EM cat system that digs up material from the object and launches it in the same direction as the object spins... gradually shifting it off course. Another purpose could be to put it into space orbit to capture material in orbit and accelerate things down to reenter and burn up instead of remaining in orbit as a collision risk...

    Worst decision ever.

    Everyone wanted money and there was very little money for anything let alone extravagances like an aircraft carrier... plus it would have been in the Ukraine so it wasn't a Russian decision to start with... what would the ukraine do with an aircraft carrier... Russia was in no condition to buy it.
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    Post  Isos on Tue May 07, 2019 11:31 pm

    http://tass.com/defense/1057257

    The United Shipbuilding Corporation told TASS the 35th ship repair plant was in the process of upgrading its dock facilities, which would allow for accommodating the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov.

    "It’s a complex package of measures, so we foresee a certain postponement of the second docking of the ship, but the eventual deadline for completing the repairs and upgrade - 2021 - will remain unchanged," the corporation said.



    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1057257
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed May 08, 2019 12:33 am

    Now that we know they are going to knock the wall between the two 200m dry docks we are left with the reduced capacity of cannabalising important repair capacity of USC. That will only take two years and then she can rejoin the fleet in 2023. The dry dock will now be unable to accept two ships at a time and becomes uneconomical for working on smaller vessels. It is not a long term problem for capacity as long as we build two new equal dry docks somewhere else to the ones we are reclaiming.
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 08, 2019 4:14 am

    Can't it still fit two ships inside at the same time ? 2 rooms for 2 persons each transformed into 1 room still has enough place for 4 persons dunno
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 08, 2019 4:57 am

    Now that we know they are going to knock the wall between the two 200m dry docks..
    If they r parallel or tandem to each other, what would be the resulting dock length & width?
    The dry dock will now be unable to accept two ships at a time and becomes uneconomical for working on smaller vessels. It is not a long term problem for capacity as long as we build two new equal dry docks somewhere else to the ones we are reclaiming.
    They could fit several small ships/subs in it &/ send them to other docks on the Baltic/Black Seas or even to Vladivostok. They could also buy a few big floating docks to save time & $ instead of building them.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed May 08, 2019 5:18 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Now that we know they are going to knock the wall between the two 200m dry docks..
    If they r parallel or tandem to each other, what would be the resulting dock length & width?

    They are going to have to dig it out an extra 100m and tear up a roadway.  It needs to be 305m long.  I couldn't tell you how wide they are but it will be wide enough for the biggest of vessels.  

    They could fit several small ships/subs in it &/ send them to other docks on the Baltic/Black Seas or even to Vladivostok. They could also buy a few big floating docks to save time & $ instead of building them.

    You can only work one ship at a time.  The flooding schedule varies for each ship and you can't tie down two ships in the same dock that doesn't have equidistant rigging.  If high winds come it could knock one over into the other one.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 08, 2019 5:52 am

    Well, at least they have this option & still complete the refit on schedule or, in the worst case, not too long behind it. Better later than never!
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed May 08, 2019 8:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Well, at least they have this option & still complete the refit on schedule or, in the worst case, not too long behind it. Better later than never!
    Well, it means that they will be able to do work also on kirov class and future lider class battlecruisers in that dock.

    In the meanwhile they could look for places nearby where to build 2 medium drydocks.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed May 08, 2019 9:54 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Now that we know they are going to knock the wall between the two 200m dry docks..
    If they r parallel or tandem to each other, what would be the resulting dock length & width?

    They are going to have to dig it out an extra 100m and tear up a roadway.  It needs to be 305m long.  I couldn't tell you how wide they are but it will be wide enough for the biggest of vessels.  

    They could fit several small ships/subs in it &/ send them to other docks on the Baltic/Black Seas or even to Vladivostok. They could also buy a few big floating docks to save time & $ instead of building them.

    You can only work one ship at a time.  The flooding schedule varies for each ship and you can't tie down two ships in the same dock that doesn't have equidistant rigging.  If high winds come it could knock one over into the other one.

    Btw, i read that the rosneft shipyard with the 2 x 200m drydocks was the Shipyard No 82 in Roslyakovo district of Murmansk, while in the article above they were talking about building the new drydock in the Sevmorput Naval Shipyard No. 35, in the Rosta district of Murmansk, where Kuz has been towed.

    So this means that the two drydocks in Roslyakovo district will not be touched...


    Btw, there are three shipyards controlled by Zvezdochka in the area (and the norwegians would also want to build a civilian shipyard there)

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/industry-and-energy/2018/08/norwegians-consider-establishing-shipyard-murmansk-region

    (...)
    State owned United Shipbuilding Corporation runs the Zvezdochka Shipyard in Severodvinsk by the White Sea, which again has three major yards in the Kola Bay within its structure. Those are  Sevmorput-yard No. 35 in Murmansk, the Shipyard Shkval No. 10 in Polyarny and the Nerpa yard in Olenya Bay.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 08, 2019 10:57 am

    Well if they are going to keep using the K and plan to have CVNs in the longer term future then they will need a dock that can handle them.

    This solution reduces capacity for handling slightly smaller ships by removing two docks and replacing it with one large dock, but is much quicker and cheaper than other alternatives I guess. Building more docks to make up for the one lost in making one big one should not be a huge problem as there should be other similar sized docks around the place, but it does make sense to increase the number of available docks simply because they will be needing more and more bigger docks to make and to upgrade newer larger ships... both military and civilian.

    I mean if you are serious about a blue water navy then you will need perhaps 6-10 very large ships that are destroyer/cruiser sized, and quite a lot of Frigate sized vessels that would be considered destroyers in the 1980s... 20-30 or so, and in addition to the K over the next 15-25 years you are going to need to build two CVNs, and probably 2-4 helicopter/landing ships like the Mistral, but nuclear powered.

    They can't make that sort of force over night, but over the next few decades they will need to expand their docks and berthing facilities to handle that sort of a fleet probably either in the Northern Fleet or the Pacific fleet and make them enough ice capable that they can sail between the two via the NSR so they can head to most places fairly rapidly.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed May 08, 2019 11:20 am

    Sorry Garry, but as I wrote above, I believe we are talking about two different shipyards.

    The  shipyard that will later be managed by Rosneft with the two 200x 200m drydocks (and which was controlling the PD-50 floating drydock was the Shipyard No 82 in Roslyakovo district of Murmansk,

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/cn/node/4227

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/cn/node/4227 wrote:

    Navy gives way to oilmen in Murmansk shipyard
    State oil company Rosneft says it intends to build two major dry-docks for Arctic oil platforms in Shipyard No 82 in Roslyakovo.


    while in the article above they were talking about building the new drydock in the Sevmorput Naval Shipyard No. 35, in the Rosta district of Murmansk, where Kuz has been towed.

    http://wikimapia.org/13848521/Rosta-Sevmorput-Naval-Shipyard-No-35



    http://tass.com/defense/1057257

    http://tass.com/defense/1057257 wrote:The United Shipbuilding Corporation told TASS the 35th ship repair plant was in the process of upgrading its dock facilities, which would allow for accommodating the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov.

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2018/10/aircraft-carrier-damaged-dry-dock-sinks


    the barents observer wrote:
    It was early morning Tuesday in Roslyakovo, near Murmansk, when Russia’s biggest floating dry dock experienced serious technical problems reportedly triggered by a power outage.

    The accident started as aircraft carrier «Admiral Kuznetsov» was to be taken out of the dock and into the nearby waters, Interfax reports. The vessel was damaged as a large crane fell over the ship deck, sources tell the news agency.

    There has not come any official comments from Zvezdochka, the company that operates yard No 82 in Roslyakovo". However, regional Governor Marina Kovtun has issued a video report about the incident.

    (...)
    The aircraft carrier has now been towed to the nearby Sevmorput Yard No 35, yard press spokesman Yevgeny Gladyshev told Interfax. He makes clear that the power outage was what caused the accident.


    (...)
    The floating dry dock at the Yard No 82 in Roslyakovo is Russia’s biggest and the only place where the Northern Fleet can conduct repairs and upgrades of its largest ships like the «Admiral Kuznetsov» as well as battle cruiser «Pyotr Veliky». The 330 meter long dock was built in Sweden in 1980 and few years later bought by the Soviet Union and taken to the Kola Bay.





    So this means that the two drydocks in Roslyakovo district will not be touched...
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed May 08, 2019 11:52 am

    kvs wrote:

    The vast majority of global shipping uses "mazut".  No ship operator with a brain would burn premium fuels like diesel when they can
    use lower grades that the giant ship "diesels" can handle.   Ship diesels can burn Orimulsion without processing.  Orimulsion is the
    Venezuelan Orinoco basin bitumen emulsified in water.   Try running that in a car or truck diesel and see what happens.   Ship diesels
    have low rpm and enough heat (large volume to surface area ratio compared to the small engines found in land vehicles) in the pistons
    to basically upgrade orimulsion into lighter hydrocarbon grades in situ.  

    As far as Ukrainians being Russians.  The rabid Russia hating Ukrs are actually a blend of Polak, Romanian, Slovak and believe it or
    not some Tatar genes.   Don't even try to extrapolate a Russian from an Ukr.


    That is all changing for commercial shipping. New rules are coming in to ban "mazut" as it is bad for the climate. This could cause a worldwide shortage of diesel.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 08, 2019 1:22 pm

    while in the article above they were talking about building the new drydock in the Sevmorput Naval Shipyard No. 35, in the Rosta district of Murmansk, where Kuz has been towed.

    http://wikimapia.org/13848521/Rosta-Sevmorput-Naval-Shipyard-No-35



    http://tass.com/defense/1057257

    http://tass.com/defense/1057257 wrote:
    The United Shipbuilding Corporation told TASS the 35th ship repair plant was in the process of upgrading its dock facilities, which would allow for accommodating the aircraft carrier The Admiral Kuznetsov.

    It is not clear how they propose to upgrade their dock facilities to accommodate the K... any existing dock will need to be made rather longer so no matter where it is done the length will need to be increased and possibly also the width... either way it is high time they started doing it because they plan to have larger military and civilian ships so it makes sense to spend the money now to work with them, whether it is the ability to overhaul or just to berth them properly.

    That is all changing for commercial shipping. New rules are coming in to ban "mazut" as it is bad for the climate. This could cause a worldwide shortage of diesel.

    Yeah, the Russians need to design a new propeller that automatically plants a tree with every rotation to make the west happy... of course NPPs will be the best option in terms of emissions and the environment... the new breeder reactor designs create much less waste and recycle spent fuel rods greatly reducing unwanted nuclear waste and all the issues of safely disposing of it...
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    Post  hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 12:51 am

    Btw, i read that the rosneft shipyard with the 2 x 200m drydocks was the Shipyard No 82 in Roslyakovo district of Murmansk, while in the article above they were talking about building the new drydock in the Sevmorput Naval Shipyard No. 35, in the Rosta district of Murmansk, where Kuz has been towed.

    So this means that the two drydocks in Roslyakovo district will not be touched...
    82nd Shipyard in Roslyakovo is where PD-50 was.
    Shipyard 35 in Rosta is where K is docked & the 2 parallel drydocks are.

    I'll draw peoples attention back to the BMPD article about the dock expansion https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3578074.html and my post of it back here http://www.russiadefence.net/t7140p350-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov-news-2#251197

    Also regarding recent discussion of 'official statements', from this new Tass article
    The Admiral Kuznetsov was damaged in a night-time incident on October 30, 2018 during a launch operation in Murmansk. The floating dock PD-50 sank under the ship in emergency. The fall of a crane damaged the carrier’s flight deck.

    Shipbuilding corporation president Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS the aircraft carrier suffered 52 defects, which would cost 70 million rubles to eliminate. He said The Admiral Kuznetsov would have to be docked for a second time. Originally the operation was scheduled for the summer of 2019.
    This is consistent with the official line from the start: that it was a planned undocking gone wrong, damage is minor & re-docking later was part of the original plan.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue May 14, 2019 1:24 am

    Hmm I wonder if the shipyard deliberately sank the floating dock so it would get funds for the drydock, thus securing its future for large ship construction...nicely played comerade lol
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 am

    mnztr wrote:Hmm I wonder if the shipyard deliberately sank the floating dock so it would get funds for the drydock, thus securing its future for large ship construction...nicely played comerade lol

    It sank because of neglect.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue May 14, 2019 4:48 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Hmm I wonder if the shipyard deliberately sank the floating dock so it would get funds for the drydock, thus securing its future for large ship construction...nicely played comerade lol

    It sank because of neglect.  

    How so? It was just supporting a huge carrier shortly before it sank....someone screwed up. The dock itself was not in perfect shape but it takes quite a lot for it to lose bouyency with many isolated tanks.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue May 14, 2019 6:54 am

    mnztr wrote:

    How so? It was just supporting a huge carrier shortly before it sank....someone screwed up. The dock itself was not in perfect shape but it takes quite a lot for it to lose bouyency with many isolated tanks.

    When it lost power the water pumps went out, the back-up generators had no fuel in them.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 14, 2019 11:11 am

    It was not the newest structure and anything that big and likely neglected for long periods of time during the last 40 years... it would seriously be relying on pumps to keep those ballast tanks empty enough to keep it stable and level... especially with the 60K tons of the Kuznetsov on its back...

    It didn't need to totally sink... just roll to one side and then sink.
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    Post  mnztr on Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:

    How so? It was just supporting a huge carrier shortly before it sank....someone screwed up. The dock itself was not in perfect shape but it takes quite a lot for it to lose bouyency with many isolated tanks.

    When it lost power the water pumps went out, the back-up generators had no fuel in them.  

    they normally need power to add or remove water. A power failure should not have been an immediate emergency. In any case its all very convenient. Now they get govt $$ for a proper drydock. hmmmmmmm

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