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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:49 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I think you have zero idea about concept of necessity and need when of use.  Zvezda was also tasked in upgrading/working on existing nuclear subs as well.  If they have to hold back development for need of the government, then they will.

    funny too, that I said they can and even you admit that they have the ability and slipway to do it yet you call me the stupid one. You clearly are a liar.  Go walk in the syrian desert you claimed you were in Laughing  Go read GarryB's post btw.

    I don't think they do not, has they haven't moved the carrier to that area to work on it. WHY because the slipways they would need to work on it aren't operational as of now and WHEN they are those slots are going to LNG tankers back to back orders of them, the Kuz would not be able to use those docks for years and years. Those LNG Tankers are far more important to the Russians than the kuz is

    So save your crap, I didn't call you stupid first nor did I call you stupid because I said they "can't do that", actually no they can't use Zveasda to fix the Kuz because the dry docks for a ship of that size aren't ready yet and won't be for a while yet.

    So yeah they can't work on it in that shipyard. Not yet anyways.

    I called you stupid in response and the fact you are wonderful ignorant with shipbuilding and keep preaching about something that isn't going to happen, "Zvesda can fix it" No they can't no slipway big enough that is operational and they aren't going to hold off building the LNG tankers for years and years over it, So be satly all you want.

    Blame the workers who nearly sunk the thing and the dock russia needed for it.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.

    If it was such a loss, then they can build another four of them... two in Russia and give the contracts for the other two to South Korea and China... PTD-50 wasn't made in Russia and there is no reason why its replacements need to be, but it would be useful work for a Russian shipyard to build nonetheless.

    I seem to remember the PTD-50 was made in Sweden in the 1980s or something, so it is time to build a new one anyway.


    The problem is this would require 2-3 years min to have the new one + 2-3 years for Kuz to repair.  What makes it questionable investment. So for Kuz this might be actually a death sentence.

    And shipyard could be only in Russia or China.




    I mean asking the SK's to do it is the way to go they could get it done in a year, If I was Russia I would order a few from SK now.

    That they would be done quickly and to a higher quality then what the Russians could do, I mean hey it's SK. They are the kings at Shipbuilding no shame paying for them to make you floating docks.

    One can say unless the Russians figure something out and fast, The kuz is dead.

    They have perhaps one area that can get it out of the water but they would need to tow her and for a very very long trip. Which is a very big problem since if a cable snaps or something goes wrong they could easily lose the ship.

    Kuz is in pretty deep trouble right now and they aren't sure what to do about it.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:49 pm

    I love how people presume Russians can build such a large floating dock replacement in some quick run. Fun fact, they never made anything of such scale in that field. Its like you expect from Serbian Yugoimport and TRZ Čačak to suddenly start producing tanks. We dont know jack shit about tanks anymore, we can repair them relying on 10 countries to provide spares. Beside wish to do something you need means and will.

    As i said before there is a reason why even USSR was bying ships in Sweden and Japan, and maritime tooling. Because there were, are and will be better. There is reason for an example why India is buying T-90MS over additional procurement of local junk they call a tank. Its available, its working, its better and cheaper than what you have, and you can have it soon.

    I am not sure why people on this forum are so stubborn at defending some weird imaginary capabilities of Russia in fields it does not deserve tbh. Fyi company i currently work in is making hydraulic pistons and rings for both Ukrainian and Russian defence companies, reason, they both suck at making it properly. This company bought the know-how back in 80s from Sweden, still uses German and Swedish machines from 80s and 90s and still does it better than Russians on new Yamazaki CNCs.

    So spare us about legendary shipbuilding feats its silly.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:52 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    I mean asking the SK's to do it is the way to go they could get it done in a year, If I was Russia I would order a few from SK now.

    technically you're right. Thought politically SK would stop at any time if US would order to


    SeigS wrote:
    One can say unless the Russians figure something out and fast, The kuz is dead.

    They have perhaps one area that can get it out of the water but they would need to tow her and for a very very long trip. Which is a very big problem since if a cable snaps or something goes wrong they could easily lose the ship.

    Kuz is in pretty deep trouble right now and they aren't sure what to do about it.

    True, I hope thought MoD can find the way to save Kuz...Would be a pity to loose only CV for a time being.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:02 am

    Militarov wrote:
    I am not sure why people on this forum are so stubborn at defending some weird imaginary capabilities of Russia in fields it does not deserve tbh. Fyi company i currently work in is making hydraulic pistons and rings for both Ukrainian and Russian defence companies, reason, they both suck at making it properly. This company bought the know-how back in 80s from Sweden, still uses German and Swedish machines from 80s and 90s and still does it better than Russians on new Yamazaki CNCs.

    So spare us about legendary shipbuilding feats its silly.

    I agree with docks, however now nobody would sell a dock to Russia - US would just stop transaction pressing on Japan/Sweden.

    As for hydraulics, I would not go that far. Your products might be good quality, proven and used in legacy designs with competitive pricing. But please dont tell me Russians cannot build new designs n0r use new tech.
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    Post  Guest on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:13 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    I am not sure why people on this forum are so stubborn at defending some weird imaginary capabilities of Russia in fields it does not deserve tbh. Fyi company i currently work in is making hydraulic pistons and rings for both Ukrainian and Russian defence companies, reason, they both suck at making it properly. This company bought the know-how back in 80s from Sweden, still uses German and Swedish machines from 80s and 90s and still does it better than Russians on new Yamazaki CNCs.

    So spare us about legendary shipbuilding feats its silly.

    I agree with docks, however now nobody would sell a dock to Russia - US would just stop transaction pressing on Japan/Sweden.

    As for hydraulics, I would not go that far.  Your products might be  good quality, proven and used  in legacy designs with competitive  pricing.  But please dont tell me  Russians cannot build new designs  n0r use new tech.

    No jokes here, Russian company that applied for same tender lost due to QC issues and higher price than us, and they procured whole new machining line in last 3 years from SK and Japan. Chinese company that applied too lost due to subpair materials used. We use steel rolled in Slovenia.

    China most likely would deliver dock, i dont see why not. South Korea most likely would too, as floating dry dock is not military exclusive tech i dont think US would react there, but you never know.

    EDIT:

    Previous company that was supplying same parts was from Netherlands.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:46 am

    Isos wrote:
    1 billion $ for upgarding a shipyard to be able to build a carrier. And 3 other for the carrier building.  

    Sell the Kuznetsov to India for 300 million $ and invest in su-57k.

    All thanks to Trump. Very Happy


    earning more moneys is great but keeping Iran and Venezuela out of US reach has even more value.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:54 am

    This place continues to degenerate with endless fuktardishness from people who really should know better...

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    The problem is this would require 2-3 years min to have the new one + 2-3 years for Kuz to repair.  What makes it questionable investment. So for Kuz this might be actually a death sentence.

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    One can say unless the Russians figure something out and fast, The kuz is dead.

    Kuz is in pretty deep trouble right now and they aren't sure what to do about it.

    Isos wrote:Sell the Kuznetsov to India for 300 million $ and invest in su-57k

    Wow.... it really is amateur hour here at RDF. So many have caught the Chicken-Little disease.  Maybe the forum has suffered a bio-weapon attack?  Laughing

    On a note of real-world-ism, does anyone have a real and factual account of the Kuz conditions and what remains to be completed below the waterline?  Not interested in ill-informed opinions of idiots who know fuck-all and just make up shit, I mean actual legitimate info from people who are involved or have seen the vessel with their own Mk1 eyeballs?

    Photo taken 12-Apr-2019 of the K at Murmansk.  She's not just sitting idle awaiting the executioners axe....  Some lifts are clearly under way, though replacement radar still to be installed to top of mast.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 21 17-7412273-1552734498

    Another image from similar timeframe (previously posted by verkhoturye51), seems to show replacement of the deck coatings.  This could be part of the general repair program, but could also be linked to repair of damage from the lay-down of the PD-50 crane.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:44 am

    That is just surface level work, They cannot fix the engines at that dock yes call people names when you don't have the idea, YOU DO REALIZE THE PROPULSION IS STILL FUCKED.

    They need to get the entire ship out of the water to fix that.

    I swear, really ignorance is ignorance.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:49 am

    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    I am not sure why people on this forum are so stubborn at defending some weird imaginary capabilities of Russia in fields it does not deserve tbh. Fyi company i currently work in is making hydraulic pistons and rings for both Ukrainian and Russian defence companies, reason, they both suck at making it properly. This company bought the know-how back in 80s from Sweden, still uses German and Swedish machines from 80s and 90s and still does it better than Russians on new Yamazaki CNCs.

    So spare us about legendary shipbuilding feats its silly.

    I agree with docks, however now nobody would sell a dock to Russia - US would just stop transaction pressing on Japan/Sweden.

    As for hydraulics, I would not go that far.  Your products might be  good quality, proven and used  in legacy designs with competitive  pricing.  But please dont tell me  Russians cannot build new designs  n0r use new tech.

    No jokes here, Russian company that applied for same tender lost due to QC issues and higher price than us, and they procured whole new machining line in last 3 years from SK and Japan. Chinese company that applied too lost due to subpair materials used. We use steel rolled in Slovenia.

    China most likely would deliver dock, i dont see why not. South Korea most likely would too, as floating dry dock is not military exclusive tech i dont think US would react there, but you never know.

    EDIT:

    Previous company that was supplying same parts was from Netherlands.

    Oh nyu you said Russia lost a contract due to QC and time? you NATO TROLL, being serious yes. People here love to pretend Russia has some feats and ability in shipbuilding it doesn't, then acts like childern when someone says otherwise.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:18 am

    Btw, a floating dock for Zvezda was produced at the Chinese shipyard Qingdao Beihai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry Co., Ltd. (BSIC).

    They could ask for a couple of bigger floating dry docks there.

    http://www.sskzvezda.ru/index.php/en/project/snabjenets/9-news-en/193-unique-40-000-ton-lifting-capacity-floating-dock-delivered-on-zvezda-shipyard
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:43 am

    That floating docks max capacity is 40k tons Kuz weighs the lightest 45k tons.

    So that Floating Dock is too small.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:33 am

    Zvezda only has a few docks that could handle a ship like the Kuz you think every slipway can fit that carrier? LOL please, The more you talk the more you show me you don't know jack about what your peaching

    And why do you think it got funding for all the upgrades to build bigger vessels... including nuclear propelled vessels... they were designed specifically to build carriers and larger cruisers for the Russian Navy, that was the purpose of paying South Korea all that money.

    I would suggest that there will be several slipways able to handle large 300+m long ships... the place is expected to build large LNG and crude oil tankers afterall...

    Tankers to export LNG and petrol are a higher priority than kuznetsov for Russia.

    And if the US decides to blockade Venezuela how many LNG tankers will it take to break that blockade?

    And when US companies take over Venezuelan oil resources and start pumping crude and the value of oil drops to $5 a barrel how many of those crude oil tankers will Russia be building?

    Sell the Kuznetsov to India for 300 million $ and invest in su-57k.

    Why would they do something that stupid?

    How could they get a platform that can carry 24 Su-33s or 24 MiG-29KRs anywhere on the planet for that price to replace what the K can do for them?

    Blame the workers who nearly sunk the thing and the dock russia needed for it.

    The floating dock that sank was a worn out unreliable piece of crap anyway... they could do with buying new ones to replace them anyway.

    The South Koreans or Chinese should be able to crank a couple out for them in no time and they could also do with the practise of making a few themselves...

    That they would be done quickly and to a higher quality then what the Russians could do, I mean hey it's SK. They are the kings at Shipbuilding no shame paying for them to make you floating docks.

    They have already paid them to upgrade and modify the Zvezda shipyard...

    One can say unless the Russians figure something out and fast, The kuz is dead.

    They need to rename it Lazarus for the number of times western experts have claimed its days are numbered... but it never seems to die, simply because those experts neglect to take in to account that even just tied to a pier it offers training opportunities that the alternative of nothing does not.

    As i said before there is a reason why even USSR was bying ships in Sweden and Japan, and maritime tooling.

    Yes, of course... if there is something that demands respect it is Swedish SSBNs and Japanese fighter planes.

    Perhaps it is time to invest in Russian yards instead of buying from foreign countries... Russia has never made a Stealth fighter before but its first attempt looks pretty damn good and certainly better than Swedens effort.

    No jokes here, Russian company that applied for same tender lost due to QC issues and higher price than us, and they procured whole new machining line in last 3 years from SK and Japan. Chinese company that applied too lost due to subpair materials used. We use steel rolled in Slovenia.

    Oh grow up... you out priced a Russian company, that does not mean they can't make it themselves... clearly it proves they actually can.

    It is a floating dock, not a space capsule for a rocket ship... they could wield a couple together and get the capacity they need.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:34 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:That floating docks max capacity is 40k tons Kuz weighs the lightest 45k tons.

    So that Floating Dock is too small.

    Where did I say that they will use that?

    I just said that they can order a bigger drydock (with a larger capacity) from the same shipyard that last year delivered a drydock to Zvezda
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:37 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:That floating docks max capacity is 40k tons Kuz weighs the lightest 45k tons.

    So that Floating Dock is too small.

    Where did I say that they will use that?

    I just said that they can order a bigger drydock (with a larger capacity) from the same shipyard that last year delivered a drydock to Zvezda

    My bad then thought you implied they could use that.

    But yes you are 100 percent right and that is the WAY to go, order some through SK it will get done faster and better then what Russia could do. There is no reason not to do this unless Russia cannot afford it, they could always make some on their own later, but they need some NOW.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:44 pm

    @Garry

    Yes Zvesda will have docks that could fit the could but again the docks aren't ready for use yet and won't be until the early 2020's, the finishing date for the upgrade is supposed to be 2022 or 2024.

    However, its space for ships of that size are limited it doesn't go past four for a ship of that size.

    I think it would only have 2-3 slots for a ship the size of Kuz and those spots are going to be occupied for years to come, Also for the DD's there is no plans to build them at that shipyard, there are what two shipyards sides Zvesda that have docks capable of making ships of that tonnage which is under 20k.

    The carrier will be built at Zvesda but not the DD's those will be constructed elsewhere again Zvesda has limited space.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:05 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:That is just surface level work, They cannot fix the engines at that dock yes call people names when you don't have the idea, YOU DO REALIZE THE PROPULSION IS STILL FUCKED.

    They need to get the entire ship out of the water to fix that.

    I swear, really ignorance is ignorance.

    I thought I had been quite clear. "Not interested in ill-informed opinions of idiots who know fuck-all and just make up shit"

    FYI the faulty boilers have been replaced already.  Tell me, if the propulsion system is "still fucked" and works have been suspended due to PD-50 sinking, where are the entries cut into the hull and/or deck to permit access to engine rooms and machinery spaces???

    There aren't any...  cuz they've been re-closed after completion of the heavy lifts and install work. Ongoing works are internal, piping and electrical hook-ups, equipment upgrades and testing.

    FFS, the work below the waterline was COMPLETE before they started the move from the PD-50......

    Buddy, you must be the most incompetent propagandist in this forum...   pwnd
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:53 pm

    Delusions are nice, has stated by Russia they were in the process of fixing the propulsion when the accident happened, they in a hurry sealed the hole before the area submerged into the water. the work below the water line wasn't complete that is a bald-faced lie.

    Here is a Russian Article which explains the problem

    https://iz.ru/863860/ilia-kramnik/chto-delat-s-avianostcem-admiral-kuznetcov-mozhet-ne-vernutsia-v-stroi

    So call me a liar, when the liar is you. Don't try the old "This is a Western News Media, it's total propaganda" this newspaper has existed since 1917 was founded, created and operates in Moscow..

    No they didn't fix it unless they can magically open up the hull while it's underwater and uses some magic force barrier to keep the water from coming in, wanna know something they can't do that...So no the propulsion is not fixed the Russians themselves never said it was fixed, you are just maing shit up yes call me this and that because the truth is the truth.

    But you clearly know better, I'll give you a chance show me proof that indeed what you claim happened. Photos of the engines being fixed AFTER it happened not before.

    See what's going to is your going to try and give me some BS picture or say "I don't have to prove anything you NATO fanboy blah blah blah".

    Btw some picture of them doing surface level work proves nothing, so come on show me your proof and I'll state I am wrong and you are right.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:39 am

    does anyone have a real and factual account of the Kuz conditions and what remains to be completed below the waterline?
    A couple of posters at Balancer who claim to be in Murmansk & at least one claims to be involved with the floating dock say it was definitely a scheduled undocking ie was all sealed up, prepared.
    A bit unclear on translation but at least the props are off but possibly the shafts as well as part of the upgrade/repairs, plan was to go back in dock at the end of the rest of the work to put them back on.

    Subsequent pictures & official statements fit their claims much better than claims of big holes, open hatches/valves & large uncontrolled flooding.

    Another image from similar timeframe (previously posted by verkhoturye51), seems to show replacement of the deck coatings. This could be part of the general repair program, but could also be linked to repair of damage from the lay-down of the PD-50 crane.
    Clearly nothing to do with the crane, the crane landed aft of the bare area, where there is still paint/coating.
    The claim of a huge hole in the deck from the crane was quickly proven false because there are literally pictures showing the crane sitting there on the deck with only minor dents visible. (probably some damage to arrestor gear and I think the port, aft weapons area)

    In all post-incident pics its floating far above normal waterline & on an even keel (both laterally & fore/aft) -> is hard contra-evidence for any significant flooding.
    Not impossible there has been some underwater damage but clearly any flooding has been pretty minor.

    Overall apparently minor damage is pretty amazing considering the violent heel, rapid release & close clearances involved.

    I hope they start work on linking/extending the 35th shipyard drydocks soon & make rapid progress.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am

    official statements confirm the crane caused major damage and it wasn't a planned undocking show me a statement from the MOD that supports that, a statement from people on Balancer is worthless.

    Has for flooding, even if it did take on water they could have easily gotten it out by the time pictures where taken so again that is meaningless to say. You realize pumps can remove hundreds of thousands of gallons of water in a mere hour right? and do you think the Russian's would allow anyone to take a picture of the ship with water in it?.

    Sorry but the facts show well has the story from the MOD and the head of the shipyard show indeed the ship took a couple of mil in extra damage from the incident the engines aren't fixed yet and they have stopped trying to modernize the ship.

    Don't downplay what happened to paint a better picture then what it is.




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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:23 am

    official statements confirm the crane caused major damage and it wasn't a planned undocking show me a statement from the MOD that supports that, a statement from people on Balancer is worthless.

    Has for flooding, even if it did take on water they could have easily gotten it out by the time pictures where taken so again that is meaningless to say. You realize pumps can remove hundreds of thousands of gallons of water in a mere hour right? and do you think the Russian's would allow anyone to take a picture of the ship with water in it?.

    Sorry but the facts show well has the story from the MOD and the head of the shipyard show indeed the ship took a couple of mil in extra damage from the incident the engines aren't fixed yet and they have stopped trying to modernize the ship.

    Don't downplay what happened to paint a better picture then what it is.
    Your link is unofficial and wrong.
    This is an official quote
    http://tass.com/defense/1030573
    Russia’s aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov has got no serious damage after a crane fell onto its deck when the warship was exiting the floating dock at the 82nd Ship Repair Factory, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said on Tuesday.
    "Upon the warship’s arrival at the place of its repairs at the 35th Ship Repair Factory (a branch of the Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center), a special commission started evaluating the damage. A preliminary inspection has found that the Admiral Kuznetsov did not get any substantial damage," Krivoruchko said at a conference call led by First Deputy Defense Minister Ruslan Tsalikov.
    And its substantiated by photos showing minimal damage and the ship floating high and level.

    The first photos are only a day or two after the incident, no time to patch holes & pump out thousands of tons of water.
    There have been no rumors or evidence of any patching happening.

    The amount of extra cost to fix the damage to K is quoted as ~70mil roubles if I recall correctly, which is all of about $1mil US out of a repair/refit budget thats multi-billions of roubles.
    Its not nothing but its definitely not a number consistent with serious damage.

    You are wrong & Russia was very lucky in an extremely embarrassing and major incident that could have easily resulted in massive damage anything up to K sinking and will definitely be a big inconvenience until a new drydock is ready.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:39 am

    That is not according to workers on the site.

    https://b-port.com/news/220939


    That is not according to President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov

    https://iz.ru/806496/ilia-kramnik/upustili-dok-pochemu-admiral-kuznetcov-edva-ne-utonul


    I could post more, Ruslan is not anywhere on record stating what you just claimed, that article is wrong. But to be fair, I would expect a Russian military official to lie about this after all pretty dam embarrassing. Just like if this happened in the US, I'd fully expect some Admiral to BS.

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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:47 pm

    First link is incorrect, it talks about the crane being stuck through the deck.

    Actual evidence in HD from 4 Nov
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 21 1069500828
    The crane is sitting on top of the only superficially damaged deck, there is no sign whatsoever of a huge hole.
    If there was to be a big hole it would probably have been made by the counterweight but we can see its sitting there on top of the deck.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 21 1069501081
    This looks like one of the Kashtans probably got squished by the tip of the crane.
    You can also see how high above normal waterline its floating.

    2nd link claims from unnamed dock sources that there was large flooding due to the ship being unprepared for undocking and large holes from the crane.
    Rakhmanov the official quoted confirms it was a planned undocking.
    In a planned undocking valves, hatches etc must have been closed -> the claims by the unnamed of large flooding are false.

    Article says the quote is from Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko not Ruslan, but Ruslan was present at the event.
    Reading is hard sometimes dunno

    If there were photos of it sitting low with a heel and big gaping holes I'd absolutely believe the officials are lying, absent any photos either way I'd believe there is a good chance the officials are lying.
    But we do have good photographic evidence showing minimal damage and a ship floating high and level -> backs up the official line of minimal damage.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:14 pm

    The Crane was not removed until after the investigation is completed, so your picture is from after the incident. You're basing you information on the fact the crane is still on the deck when again they waited until the investigation was over to remove the crane, so nice try.

    Also the area where the crane hit is also covered and due to this angle you cannot see certain areas of the deck where the crane hit. also five meters is what hey reported five meters is FIVE YARDS. It would be very hard to see a 5-meter gash that is covered by the crane. From the picture.

    The hole its self is no big deal, but you denying the thing is there when everyone else says it is. Just Silly.

    The huge problem is they have no dock capable of getting it out of the water and fixing its propulsion.

    Expanding a dock could take years of work.





    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:18 pm

    Its pretty obviously sitting where it landed. (look at the railing damage in the foreground)

    Or perhaps you can provide some actual evidence showing a big hole? unshaven

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