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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:34 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Quickest Solution would be to buy floating dock from China.
    Sweeden produce them too. It would be faster to invade them Laughing
    Finland will need to be invaded 1st. The last time, in 1938, they got more than they bargained for. They'll have more luck invading S. Ukraine to get the Nikolaev Shipyard that built the Adm. K!

    slasher

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  slasher on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:58 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The carrier is fine, well this will delay their work even more Russians problem is the loss of their PD-50 will hurt them hard, that was their biggest floating dry dock. Question is if they can even recover the dock now if not they took a huge hit and that will set them back.

    Yeah, I think that's the really worrying thing. Strategically, this could probably turn out almost as bad as if the K itself was put out of service (of course losing the K would have been a complete disaster all other things considered; PR, national pride etc.).
    But as an indispensable asset as the PD-50 apparently is, this is indeed a massive hit. We could only find out of how essential it really is though, if its projected schedule/roster were made available covering the next couple years. Then we'll have a better idea how many/what other vessels were lined up to access her services.
    Quite telling also was how, almost immediately, Borisov stated that more than likely 'yes' she will be lifted. This without any sort of preliminary assessments or analysis of the situation as it is.

    And also, USC may file a lawsuit against the Rosneft plant due to the accident with Admiral Kuznetsov: Open the question of replacing the site for further repair of the aircraft carrier
    It is noted that the flooding of the floating dock can affect the repair time of other ships. “This dock is used not only for Admiral Kuznetsov, but also for our other ships of the first and second rank, so other repair work this year will be stopped,” said Alexei Rakhmanov. wrote:

    This article somewhat explains how dire is the situation, but it's clearly written with a pro-western/anti-russian p.o.v.
    Russia's Dry Dock Accident Could Have Far Larger Repercussions Than A Damaged Carrier : Russia's biggest dry dock has completely sunk and it's debatable if it has anything that could fully replace it anytime in the foreseeable future.


    Last edited by slasher on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:19 pm

    Quite right the loss of PD-50 is massive, It will cause them many many problems if it's not raised and fixed in a timely manner.

    This is something to be concerned about very very much so.

    The russians have to raise the dock and if they can't they will feel the cost for years to come for losing it in such a sad way of all things.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:34 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Quite right the loss of PD-50 is massive, It will cause them many many problems if it's not raised and fixed in a timely manner.

    This is something to be concerned about very very much so.

    The russians have to raise the dock and if they can't they will feel the cost for years to come for losing it in such a sad way of all things.

    Maybe but if it finally snaps them out of their carrier navy fantasies and forces them to focus on realistic and useful platforms that are actually required for defense then it will be worth it in the long run


    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:48 pm

    Quite telling also was how, almost immediately, Borisov stated that more than likely she will be lifted. This without any sort of preliminary assessments or analysis of the situation as it is.
    Any country would give that answer initially.
    If replacement is super urgent they'll buy one off China, otherwise wait for the Novatek yard to complete/clear initial orders or start build a new one themselves.

    To me, it looks like an access hole, not damage; there could be other holes on the starboard side.
    Thousand of tons of H2O would have capsized & sunk it too.
    Yes there is a hole under where the crane is, pretty obviously an access hole, possibly where boilers were removed/replaced in which case it was there before K went into the dock -> not likely to cause flooding.
    Could be other holes on that side yes but how could they be made by the crane & have it wind up where it is?

    A ship as big as K can certainly sustain several thousand tons of flooding without capsize depending on where the flooding is but I'd expect it to sit a lot lower than it is if that was the case.
    The source who says K wasn't ready to leave dock says the crane made a hole & thousands of tons of flooding through holes/open valves, if the latter two are not true then probably the first isn't either.
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    George1

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 am

    St. Petersburg factory to repair aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov’s powerplant by 2020

    The Kirov Factory did not specify the current stage of the repair works


    ST.PETERSBURG, November 6. /TASS/. The St. Petersburg-based Kirov-Energomash (part of the Kirov Factory) will complete works to restore the equipment of the main powerplant of the Russian Navy’s sole aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in 2020, Kirov Factory CEO Georgy Semenenko told TASS on Tuesday.

    "The terms of the contract are being fulfilled strictly in accordance with the schedule agreed with the customer and all the works are due to be completed in 2020," the chief executive said.

    The Kirov Factory did not specify, however, the stage of the repair works at present.

    Kirov-Energomash specializing in the manufacture and modernization of powerplant started the repairs of the aircraft carrier’s main propulsion unit in August 2018 under a contract signed on July 13 with the Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). The factory’s specialists participated in the disassembly and will be involved in the subsequent assembly of the equipment and start-up works.

    After the repairs are over, Russia’s sole aircraft carrier will get new air defense systems, in particular, the Pantsyr-M complex, and new flight control systems.

    Repairs on the Admiral Kuznetsov

    The Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center signed a contract with Russia’s Defense Ministry in April on the aircraft carrier’s repairs. The works started in May and are scheduled to be completed in 2021.

    The dock repairs of the Admiral Kuznetsov were carried out at the 82nd Ship Repair Factory in the Murmansk Region in northwest Russia. However, the factory’s PD-50 floating dock sank overnight to October 30 in Murmansk during the planned exit of the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov from it. According to preliminary information, the warship itself had its take-off deck damaged by the fallen crane and is now at the 35th Ship Repair Plant.

    The spokesman for the Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center said that the repairs were proceeding according to schedule.

    As a source in the ship-building industry told TASS, the Admiral Kuznetsov does not need repeat repairs in docks after the incident.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1029509
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:24 am

    Could be other holes on that side yes but how could they be made by the crane & have it wind up where it is?
    They could be other access holes or holes caused by this accident.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:01 pm

    They could buy one off China but that would take time, time the russians don't really have.

    It would take two years to get a dry dock like they lost from china, China cannot just snap it's fingers and make it appear out of the blue.

    In the end, buying a dock from china would do little to nothing to help the situation at that point russia may has well build their own.

    China has no floating drydocks of that size to spare.

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:40 pm

    Well thats not even an access hole under the crane, its just part of the ship, can see down to below load waterline here, no sign of damage from the crane right where you'd expect it to be if the crane did cause damage in the hull side

    End of the boom appears to have landed on one of the Kashtans but thats not really a biggie since they're being replaced with Pantsir-M anyway.
    Deck even looks like its barely dented even where the counterweight landed.


    Edit: divers confirm PD-50 is severely damaged http://severpost.ru/read/71829/
    The divers carried out an initial inspection of the floating dock PD-50 sunk on October 30 in the waters of the 82nd ship repair yard (SRZ).

    “According to their information, during the examination, it was discovered that PD-50 was damaged by the hull on which cracks formed as a result of hitting the bottom, ” a source familiar with the situation told Interfax .

    According to him, "this is not surprising, given the weight of the dock and its age." He believes that this is why a decision has not yet been made about what to do next with the dock - whether to lift it or not.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:46 pm

    Given its weight, is it worth lifting even for scrap? They could probably cut it into smaller pieces before lifting them.
    The good news is that the new boilers r already installed & the refit can proceed pier side; later it can go in a drydock again, even after the next cruise.
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    Hole

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Hole on Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:30 pm

    New dry dock in construction at Zvezda.



    If a new one is really needed...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm

    far as I can see thats not a floating dry dock even it if it's it's too small. Stop trying to act like this issue isn't one it is a really big issue.

    "Russia has officially confirmed that it does not have any facilities that can service its lone carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, after the country’s massive PD-50 floating dry dock sank in October 2018. State-owned United Shipbuilding Corporation, or USC, says that it is looking into alternatives for servicing the flattop, but those substitutes could be months, if not years away from becoming operational".

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24760/russia-admits-it-doesnt-have-any-dry-docks-that-can-fit-its-lone-carrier-after-accident

    The loss of that floating dry dock means they cannot easily service a large ship now, the article states yes they do have alternatives for other large surface ships but those alternatives will be a lot more time consuming than normal at this point meaning they will be even SLOWER than normal for a while.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:32 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........
    The loss of that floating dry dock means they cannot easily service a large ship now, the article states yes they do have alternatives for other large surface ships but those alternatives will be a lot more time consuming than normal at this point meaning they will be even SLOWER than normal for a while.

    Only important question is how does this affect submarine maintenance and construction?

    Nothing much will change with surface fleet. Ship classes that Russia can produce now (up to frigate maybe, corvette more likely) will not be affected and can be serviced with any other dry-dock.

    This dry-dock here that they managed to sink is only crucial for legacy white elephants that do not contribute to defense anyway and are sucking up resources.

    But if submarines are affected than it's nothing short of total disaster.  So are they? Question
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:26 am

    Their biggest subs r smaller than their CGNs, so having 1 less big drydock may delay their starting time in other suitable yards.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battlecruiser_Pyotr_Velikiy:
    Length: 252 m (827 ft)
    230 m (750 ft) (waterline)
    Beam: 28.5 m (94 ft)


    At 175 metres in length, it became the world's largest submarine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Dmitriy_Donskoi_(TK-208)

    Delta IV:
    Length: 167 m (548 ft)
    Beam: 11.7 m (38 ft)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Verkhoturye_(K-51)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Yury_Dolgorukiy_(K-535):
    Length: 170 m (557 ft 9 in)
    Beam: 13.5 m (44 ft 3 in)

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:38 am

    Stop trying to act like this issue isn't one it is a really big issue.
    I don't think anyone is behaving like its no big deal, its a giant PR disaster & going to be a big PITA logistically but its also not going to cause the collapse of the whole fleet.

    Question is how to go about getting it sorted.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........
    The loss of that floating dry dock means they cannot easily service a large ship now, the article states yes they do have alternatives for other large surface ships but those alternatives will be a lot more time consuming than normal at this point meaning they will be even SLOWER than normal for a while.

    Only important question is how does this affect submarine maintenance and construction?

    Nothing much will change with surface fleet. Ship classes that Russia can produce now (up to frigate maybe, corvette more likely) will not be affected and can be serviced with any other dry-dock.

    This dry-dock here that they managed to sink is only crucial for legacy white elephants that do not contribute to defense anyway and are sucking up resources.

    But if submarines are affected than it's nothing short of total disaster.  So are they? Question

    If they had to raise a big submarine out of the water yes it will.

    Also frigates are affected Russia does not have tons of dry docks space to spare, if you move a ship into the land-based dry docks you taking up construction time and slots.

    Floating dry docks are used to solve this problem. They are also used to safely guide a ship into a land-based dry dock otherwise you have a huge risk of causing hull damage to the ships this includes subs.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:18 am

    hoom wrote:
    Stop trying to act like this issue isn't one it is a really big issue.
    I don't think anyone is behaving like its no big deal, its a giant PR disaster & going to be a big PITA logistically but its also not going to cause the collapse of the whole fleet.

    Question is how to go about getting it sorted.

    It will cause some areas of the fleet to collapse without a maintenance facility which is what the PD-50 was used for it played a very important role in managing the fleet.
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    Hole

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:50 am

    It is a floating dry dock. For subs. But Zvezda is capable of building a replacement for your sacred PD-50, the ornerstone of the russian Navy without all the fleets will have no other joice but to be disbanned.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:14 am

    Its not like PD-50 is the only floating dock in the North though.
    I counted at least 10 decent size ones via Google Earth & several smaller.

    Question is how close to capacity those are working?
    If they're already pretty close to capacity its a big issue but if there is a bunch of spare capacity there may be little/no impact other than K & PtG.
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 am

    Maybe its a better idea if Rus navy just build a new graving dry dock big enough to service AC size ships instead of floating dry docks that are prone to disasters like this. 

    Also why did the soviets even bothered to get floating drydocks like PD-50 instead of standard one? Its not like Russia has limited shoreline to spare for building structures.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm

    Hole wrote:It is a floating dry dock. For subs. But Zvezda is capable of building a replacement for your sacred PD-50, the ornerstone of the russian Navy without all the fleets will have no other joice but to be disbanned.

    The guys who own the shipyard have said that won't happen anytime soon, soooo keep talking~ Cause the owners themselves have said this and PRETTTTTTTY sure the guys who own the shipyard would know better then you.

    so I'll take their word over yours thanx.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:57 pm

    hoom wrote:Its not like PD-50 is the only floating dock in the North though.
    I counted at least 10 decent size ones via Google Earth & several smaller.

    Question is how close to capacity those are working?
    If they're already pretty close to capacity its a big issue but if there is a bunch of spare capacity there may be little/no impact other than K & PtG.

    Assuming you did see 10 no offense its really hard to tell a floating dock from other things via google earth which isn't reliable at all.

    They are way to small also. There are big reasons why the United Shipbuilding corp is admitting this is a disaster of massive scale. Straight from the guys who make warships for Russia and handle the fleet in that way. Seems the more this is explained the more people do not want to accept the reality and wish to gloss over it not wanting to admit how big of a fudge this has become.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:19 pm


    Good news luckily (not for Kuznetzov though)

    Russia finds alternative to sunken floating dock for naval ships

    http://tass.com/defense/1029654

    Docking versions serving as an alternative to the sunken floating dock in Murmansk in northwest Russia have been found for all the Russian Navy’s ships, Head of the United Ship-Building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said on Wednesday.

    "We have alternatives actually for all the ships except for [the aircraft carrier] Admiral Kuznetsov. Our enterprises are in operation, [including] the Nerpa [Ship Repair Factory]. After all, we can perform certain docking works in Severodvinsk, not far from Murmansk. We don’t feel any special problems in this regard," the chief executive said
    ..............
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Good news luckily (not for Kuznetzov though)

    Russia finds alternative to sunken floating dock for naval ships

    http://tass.com/defense/1029654

    Docking versions serving as an alternative to the sunken floating dock in Murmansk in northwest Russia have been found for all the Russian Navy’s ships, Head of the United Ship-Building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said on Wednesday.

    "We have alternatives actually for all the ships except for [the aircraft carrier] Admiral Kuznetsov. Our enterprises are in operation, [including] the Nerpa [Ship Repair Factory]. After all, we can perform certain docking works in Severodvinsk, not far from Murmansk. We don’t feel any special problems in this regard," the chief executive said
    ..............

    They can the problem is they slow down other progress because now they have to use those facilities for dual purpose they never intended so they are now expecting those places to do double the work which is going to cause time delays.

    also he said "Certain" meaning very specifics things they can do but others they cannot in that area


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 pm

    Assuming you did see 10 no offense its really hard to tell a floating dock from other things via google earth which isn't reliable at all.
    Are you censored serious? Neutral

    They are way to small also.
    Too small for K & PtG no question but there are a bunch of other, smaller ships in the fleet.

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