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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    JohninMK

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:52 am

    Very sobering article.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24572/russias-dry-dock-accident-could-have-far-larger-repercussions-than-a-damaged-carrier
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:32 am

    At most it was used for pilot training but even that is irrelevant now that Russia opted for STOVL aircraft development.
    They'll need her as evaluation & training platform for STOVLs too, if nothing else is ready by then.
    Eventually they plan to have CATOBAR CVNs & so still need such ship for training & real world deployments. Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.
    OTH, considering the $ already spent & the $ needed to scrap her w/o a drydock for it, perhaps they could sell her to India or Brazil.

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:31 am

    Do they have cranes powerful enough to raise the dock? If not, foreign help will be needed. ....
    Its surely too big to raise with cranes, I presume raising it would involve patching underwater strapping on additional pontoons before pumping it out.

    But its pretty old, maybe better to scrap it & build a new one.
    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    PD-50 is old enough they should have been planning for a replacement soon anyway.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:21 am

    They better build a bathtub like this on shore instead:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dry_Dock_No._5_-_looking_southeast_-_NARA_-_299597.jpg


    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:59 am

    They've already got the Severodvinsk basin.

    But apparently the entrance isn't wide enough for K & Nakhimov doesn't seem likely to vacate its spot for a while yet.
    Maybe rebuilding the entrance would be quickest/easiest way to restore large drydock capability but it'd still be a big job.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am

    The Nakhimov could spend a few years in the water; the Russians have as much ingenuity as sloppiness, so widening the entrance is cheaper & faster than salvaging the sunken drydock or building a new 1.
    https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-46040923
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    GarryB

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:48 am

    Well that just tells you everything you need to know...

    A Minor mishap and scrap a perfectly good ship...

    With friends like you guys who needs enemies?

    They upgraded her and sent her to Syria for tests... now they are giving her a more substantial overhaul, including her engines a good going over or replacement and they have a minor accident and you guys want to scrap her?

    Are you retarded?

    Seriously are you retarded?

    Ohhh, no it has a small easily fixed scratch on its side... lets get rid of it... some of you guys are pathetic. Suspect

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:42 am

    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    According to ppl at Balancer these big floating docks are built with the floor in several detachable sections & maintenance is done by dropping one out & bringing it aboard the dock.

    So assuming its not an outright wreck the dock could be broken into the smaller bits, each bought to the surface & repaired separately then put back together on the water (assembly from bits might not be all that easy but I feel its doable).
    Sides are a single piece but being fairly simple boxes should be no big issue to cut if needed for raising & then join back together/new sections built during repair.

    Edit: via BMPD comments US recently got an 80,000ton floating drydock built in China for only $40mil, apparently only took a year from order to delivery
    http://www.hegerdrydock.com/projects/floating12.html
    Thats a US supplied design but I'm sure China wouldn't be above providing a slightly modified version/Russia could provide appropriate design.

    Edit2: Last year Piraeus (Greece) also recieved an 80,000ton Chinese built floating dock.
    https://www.amna.gr/en/anaxinhua/article/165691/Cosco-to-transport-new-floating-dry-dock-to-Perama-ship-repair-zone

    kumbor

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  kumbor on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:30 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    According to ppl at Balancer these big floating docks are built with the floor in several detachable sections & maintenance is done by dropping one out & bringing it aboard the dock.

    So assuming its not an outright wreck the dock could be broken into the smaller bits, each bought to the surface & repaired separately then put back together on the water (assembly from bits might not be all that easy but I feel its doable).
    Sides are a single piece but being fairly simple boxes should be no big issue to cut if needed for raising & then join back together/new sections built during repair.

    Edit: via BMPD comments US recently got an 80,000ton floating drydock built in China for only $40mil, apparently only took a year from order to delivery
    http://www.hegerdrydock.com/projects/floating12.html
    Thats a US supplied design but I'm sure China wouldn't be above providing a slightly modified version/Russia could provide appropriate design.

    Edit2: Last year Piraeus (Greece) also recieved an 80,000ton Chinese built floating dock.
    https://www.amna.gr/en/anaxinhua/article/165691/Cosco-to-transport-new-floating-dry-dock-to-Perama-ship-repair-zone

    Floating docks are built in sections, that`s true, but these sections are welded to each other. Docks are not self-propelled, so they are not ships, but floating objects. Docks have compressors and pumps to flood sections in order that ships are entered.
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Nibiru on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:55 pm

    Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock? how many more decades will it take for Russia to be able to built its own shipyards/ facilities without relying on foreign products or expertise.

    kumbor

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  kumbor on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:13 pm

    Nibiru wrote:
    Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock? how many more decades will it take for Russia to be able to built its own shipyards/ facilities without relying on foreign products or expertise.

    Russia is surely able to build its own shipyards. All shipyards in USSR were indigeniously built. Some critical equipment in 80s were bought in Japan (state of the art Toshiba CNC tooling machines and CAD/CAM equipment) and in Finland (giant gantry travelling cranes of 1.000 tons capability). USSR/Russia wasn`t able to build such electronics and computerised machines. Finland was famous for its Wartsila built auxiliary ships for USSR navy, as well as shipyard cranes. Today we live in the age of globalised economy. Some items you produce locally, while some are bought on the market, from countries and companies which can make them faster, better and/or cheaper. I bet that much of the equipment in USA shipyards are today also made in China, Korea, Japan, or elsewhere.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A Minor mishap and scrap a perfectly good ship...
    ....

    Good for what exactly?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:00 pm

    It's better than nothing, esp. when several European & Asian navies have carriers & r building more, aside from the 11 CVNs in the USN. Even if it'll spend most of its remaining life in port, at least they can maintain skills needed to repair, refit & modernize a carrier.
    Would u throw out a nice fur coat after moving to Hawaii? Most people won't, as it may be useful in their future travels.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:14 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's better than nothing, esp. when several European & Asian navies have carriers & r building more, aside from the 11 CVNs in the USN. Even if it'll spend most of its remaining life in port, at least they can maintain skills needed to repair, refit & modernize a carrier.

    Do they even need a carier? Especially one in this state? And what for?

    It spends most of it's time doing nothing useful, it does not contribute to defense of Russia and (as Syria has shown) it can't even retrieve aircraft which is supposed to be it's core feature.

    It's like having missile ship that can't launch missiles.

    And let's not go int amount of money that is spent on it without gaining anything out of it.

    They also have 1600 crewmen and 620 air group staff tied to it 24/7 who don't contribute to defense needs. And they all cost money.

    That's enough people to fully man 8 frigates and quite a few air squadrons. All of which would actually contribute to nation's defense.


    Tsavo Lion wrote:Would u throw out a nice fur coat after moving to Hawaii? Most people won't, as it may be useful in their future travels.

    If it costs me 2 months worth of income per year then definitely. Especially if I have no intent of traveling anywhere cold in foreseeable future and if standard jacket (LHD) can get the job done anyway.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:56 pm

    If u already spent $ on it but can't sell it for equal amount, it would be foolish to do so. Even if it hangs in ur closet, "it not asking for food". Getting rid of isn't an option at this point & in the foreseeable future.
    They also have 1600 crewmen and 620 air group staff tied to it 24/7 who don't contribute to defense needs. And they all cost money.
    They can be sent to TAD (temporary assigned duty) on rotational basis elsewhere; the same with its air wing.
    Most likely they'll try to rise it: https://iz.ru/807202/2018-10-31/nazvany-orientirovochnye-sroki-podniatiia-zatonuvshego-plavdoka-pd-50


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

    kumbor

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  kumbor on Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's better than nothing, esp. when several European & Asian navies have carriers & r building more, aside from the 11 CVNs in the USN. Even if it'll spend most of its remaining life in port, at least they can maintain skills needed to repair, refit & modernize a carrier.

    Do they even need a carier? Especially one in this state? And what for?

    It spends most of it's time doing nothing useful, it does not contribute to defense of Russia and (as Syria has shown) it can't even retrieve aircraft which is supposed to be it's core feature.

    It's like having missile ship that can't launch missiles.

    And let's not go int amount of money that is spent on it without gaining anything out of it.

    They also have 1600 crewmen and 620 air group staff tied to it 24/7 who don't contribute to defense needs. And they all cost money.

    That's enough people to fully man 8 frigates and quite a few air squadrons. All of which would actually contribute to nation's defense.


    Tsavo Lion wrote:Would u throw out a nice fur coat after moving to Hawaii? Most people won't, as it may be useful in their future travels.

    If it costs me 2 months worth of income per year then definitely. Especially if I have no intent of traveling anywhere cold in foreseeable future and if standard jacket (LHD) can get the job done anyway.

    @Papa Dragon
    "Do they even need a carrier? Especially one in this state"!
    OMG! You haven`t heard by any chance that for half a year already Kuznetsov is in refit and modernisation comprising full replacement of boilers and refurbishment of turbines where necessary, replacement of almost all wiring and electronics. Hull is constructively in good condition, as it have been built with great margin of toughness.
    Nobody mentally sane would scrap such a ship. Of course it would be better to have new carriers, as Russia is committed to have blue water navy apart from coastal forces, but at this moment it is impossible. there are much more other priorities, as Russian navy was in bad shape until recently.

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:39 am

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock?
    Sure, with time & planning and as long as you don't have more important things to put the time & effort into.
    This is an unplanned emergency though & if China can pump out a replacement in 1yr for only $40mil why waste time/limited resource developing the capability only to have it wither again from lack of demand?
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    Hole

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 am

    Far East:



    Until now PD-50 worked perfectly. No need for replacement. But it should be no problem to order another one of these.

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:52 pm

    Thats new Chinese built one for Zvezda right? Its too small to replace PD-50, 40Kton.

    Happier times (?) K in PD-50 back in 2010


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:07 pm

    So what I'm getting out of this incident is:
    - the floating dock started to sink and a crane fell on Kuznetsov, causing some damage
    - Kuznetsov is already in another dock undergoing repairs and maintenance
    - New floating dock needed or old one repaired?
    - some people posting garbage sources like thedrive (lol typical anti Russian sources) and going overboard on the issue.
    - In end, ship is still under repair/maintenance/upgrade and that the damages may or may not cause delay in overall work.

    It sure sounds like the "sky is falling, but nothing happens" kind of ordeal.

    BTW, Zvezda shipyard I believe is able to already hold such sized ships.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:19 pm

    ..why waste time/limited resource developing the capability only to have it wither again from lack of demand?
    It won't be idle as there will be other ships & subs to repair, refit & upgrade.
    Kuznetsov is already in another dock undergoing repairs and maintenance
    Nope, there's no other dock of this size anywhere close, unless Adm. Nachimov is moved & that dock's entrance enlarged. Adm. K is now moored pier side.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:02 pm

    They say it's docked. Tass says so which is official. You aren't. And it isn't pear, but pier.

    But maybe you are right. They then should tug it to far east to Star plant. Fly in experts and what not, and have it done there.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:54 pm

    FYI, "docked" may mean "moored or tied up at". Pl. see my earlier post about towing it to the FE.

    hoom

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:38 am

    It won't be idle as there will be other ships & subs to repair, refit & upgrade.
    Capability to make new floating docks would become idle.

    To be fair there are probably a bunch of other old floating docks in need of replacement so arguably it could be useful as part of a longer shipyard replacement/modernisation programme.

    On the other hand buying off China offers not only a cheap & quick solution but will help the strategic Russia/China relationship.


    Another older pic of K in PD-50


    BTW apparently the head mechanic of the dock is still Missing, presumably went down with the dock.

    slasher

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  slasher on Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Nope, there's no other dock of this size anywhere close, unless Adm. Nachimov is moved & that dock's entrance enlarged. Adm. K is now moored pier side.

    I read there's another floating dock, PD-1 of "approximately similar size" located in Severodvinsk. (reported by Tass and google searched)
    Haven't got much more info though.

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