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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:41 am

    ..the Murmansk-BN coastal radio-electronic complex, ..is designed to suppress short-wave communication and can interfere with operational-strategic and operational-tactical links of enemy control. That is, Murmansk-BN is able to disable onboard weapon control systems. In this case, for example, during a sea battle, it will take a few minutes to inflict irreparable damage on the Zirkon or Caliber rockets to the ship (aircraft carrier, cruiser, destroyer - not important) to the enemy when the weapon-defense systems are disconnected. It is noteworthy that the declared range of the complex is 5000 kilometers. However, the military is confident that its maximum range is 8,000 kilometers....
    https://politexpert.net/82031-otvet-nato-ne-ostanovit-rossiyu-moskva-smozhet-protivopostavit-alyansu-kompleks-murmansk-bn?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=lentainform&utm_campaign=politexpert.net&utm_term=1243289&utm_content=6082446
    Probably, the same system may be used to defend against UAVs & CMs.
    Although not economical to operate by civilians, the Russian military could press airships to service. All of Siberia & the RFN&E icl. Kamchatka r no less remote than the Canadian North & Alaska. The VMF CVNs will be homeported in the Far North & Far East.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship#Heavy_lifting

    If need be, a tilt-rotor AWACS version will appear; a transport 1 will be based on that, just like USN E-2s & C-2s variants.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_C-2_Greyhound
    In fact, the USMC V-22s r now supplying their CVNs at sea before the dedicated Navy version is delivered:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#U.S._Marine_Corps
    On 5 January 2015, the Navy and Marines signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) to buy the V-22 for the COD mission, and was confirmed in the Navy's FY 2016 budget. Initially designated HV-22, four aircraft would be bought each year from 2018–2020.It incorporates an extended-range fuel system for an 1,150 nmi (1,320 mi; 2,130 km) unrefueled range, ..the range increase comes from extra fuel bladders through larger external sponsons,.. Its primary mission is long-range aerial logistics, but other conceivable missions include personnel recovery and special warfare. In February 2016, the Navy officially designated it as the CMV-22B. The Navy's program ..determined that only 44 were required. Production of the CMV-22 will begin in FY 2018 and start deliveries in 2020. Bell and Boeing have pitched the V-22 as a Navy platform for various missions, such as communications, electronic warfare, or aerial refueling;.. Other roles include search and rescue and anti-submarine warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#U.S._Navy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#Specifications_(MV-22B)
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/avx-would-replace-heavy-lift-chinook-with-tiltrotor-424834/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bix4ptq3Who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJovLfFmOB4

    Russia knows full well the benefits of having these types of aircraft & already has tilt-rotor drones in development:
    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2017/5/26/8800/?h

    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21011/Russia_s_Tilt_Rotor_Heavy_Lift_Drone_Prototype_by_2019#.WqwQUR3wa1s

    Needless to say, a future V-22 Russian nearest counterpart & its quad rotor follow ons won't need CAT, and will have many civ. applications!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:22 am

    Adding VSTOL ability is not major problem here and for NAvy a great advantage- you can have manu more capable fighter on smaller ships.

    The Chinese have never operated a VSTOL fighter before... on land or at sea... lets wait a bit before deciding perhaps?

    STOL drones can refuel as well ...

    Of course they can... but if you want a refuelling aircraft you tie up your fighters because if you are not going for a big AWACS platform then you are hardly going to develop a carrier borne aircraft for just transport and refuelling roles... which means only buddy buddy refuelling... which makes sense on land... a fighter that has launched all his AAMs at the enemy on his way home can top up another fighter with AAMs but low on fuel... at sea that means extra take off and landing cycles to refuel an aircraft that really should have been bigger anyway.

    ok what precisely kind of defense functions? against 2-3 US CVSGs? not enough ? in Syria the whole contingent was much smaller. And it worked for 3 years.

    Means you could keep 20-30 in the air at one time even allowing for losing a dozen or so over a long campaign... a NATO attack of 200 cruise missiles detected by AWACS and engaged by AAMs from those aircraft... and then engaging those 3-4 US CVSGs with a battery of 200 odd Zircon hypersonic anti ship missiles... yeah... why not?

    in 2030 MiG-29 will be 50yo frame based plane. Unlikely will be base of Russian deck aviation.

    Rather younger than the F-18 that will still likely be in USN service. The Su-57 will be the primary fighter... the MiG-29KR will be the two seat trainer replacing the Su-25, but with air to air and air to ground capacity that the naval Su-25 never had (it does not even have its gun).

    No, because USA stopped when Russians were really pissed. There were neve any danger of RuAF or RuArmy from coalition. And till nuclear war wont be.
    In case of nuclear was 20 or 40 fighters wont matter anyway...

    The opposition wont always be so impotent as the anti assad forces and ISIS...

    And at the end of the day the US would probably be rational enough to know when to stop... but would everyone?

    c'mon CVGS is not accompanied by tankers huh?

    The difference is a CVN will only need one for aircraft fuel... a CVGS will need a lot more.

    A long distance from Russia that is a long thin chain that would be easy to interfere with.

    with current EM/laser based defenses not danger anymore

    Your confidence is impressive... is it well founded?

    Ka-29 was to be a carrier one, Ka-31 was AWACS

    For fighter support of an LHD you are better off with AWACS helos as well as helos that can launch AAMs than a transport helo for transporting troops... which it will be carrying anyway.

    nothing but they were not shown on Shtorm mockup

    Proves nothing. The K mockup had MiG-23s on it... which never happened either.

    and F-18 had worse performance than F-14 ! damn lets revive F-14. F-35? stealth, sensor fusion , avionics, weapons.

    There is nothing in the F-18 that could not be put into the F-14 as an upgrade... and the same could be said regarding most of what the F-35 has except the stealth... the fact that the F-14 is a much bigger aircraft however means much greater capacity and performance... redesign it so it was cheaper and easier to maintain and you have a much better aircraft than the F-35 in the VSTOL version anyway.

    But when you rely on massive fighter application why to develop Kindzhal or Zircon? Copy US power projection only in stupid way?

    Not copying US power projection... half the planes are not strike bombers... most of the time half the planes will be carried, but large growth potential in case it is needed is a good thing... extra capacity would allow enormous numbers of drones to be carried and used...

    Yeah well 2 sites weer included in treaty. But Russia didnt build any AMD otherwise.

    Not two.

    the treaty specified each country (Soviet Union and US) could have one ABM defence system around either an ICBM field or their capital city... Soviets chose Moscow and the US chose ICBM field and then shut it down... so they spent the money and didn't even use it.

    The Russians inherited the Soviet system around Moscow and have continued testing and upgrading since the end of the cold war to today.

    Putin openly stated: there were no resources for this.

    S-500 is pretty much mobile ABM system with similar performance to Moscow fixed system... there will be land based and also naval based versions and it will be global... anywhere the Russian Navy can go...

    precisely what kind of enemy? UK? USA? China? for other you ned 20-24 fighters for them 48 is too little.

    If you only have 24 fighters that effects what sort of conflicts you can get involved with and for how long... more means a wider range of usefulness and more combat persistance.

    Also keep in mind that like the land based Su-57, the naval version will be multirole... able to hit air and ground targets but also capable of recon and jamming and other roles too.


    There is no way on Earth it could keep sailing for longer than 40 years without a major rebuild, and a major rebuild means not only stripping down 100% of any equipment inside the hull, it means checking the whole hull meter by meter and wherever needed replacing hull's parts as well.

    In the next 10-15 years they need a full on overhaul of the the K... especially an upgrade to the propulsion system... conversion to nuclear would be ideal, but other changes would be good too.


    Last, airships do not have any large payload capability.

    the main problem of range would be solved with nuclear power generation.

    Otherwise the main other problems were fire risk, and structural weight and strength... the reality is that modern materials like carbon fibre and nomex and light strong fabrics that are fire retardant would be excellent to make them lighter and much much stronger.

    Purge the space between the bags of gas with nitrogen and the fire risk becomes so low you can use cheap abundant and much more efficient hydrogen, instead of inert but expensive helium.

    In fact a hydrogen fuel cell, plus nuclear power plant would be the ideal combination... the fuel cell with the steady electric power supply can be used to convert hydrogen gas and oxygen into water and back... that means water ballast can be converted into extra lift without dumping... heat from the NPP can be used to make the hydrogen even lighter and lift more weight... the antennas themselves will likely generate heat so operating them will add lift too.

    The airship itself would be huge.. but that would work in its favour... an AAM hit like an AMRAAM means serious damage to the area it hits but the layers of bags it has to penetrate and the fact that some ballast can be dropped to compensate for the loss of lift means even a direct hit will cause the airship to descend rather than fall in a ball of fire.

    Make it light enough and you could probably operate it at very high altitudes where AMRAAM is not even a threat.

    Equally with plenty of radar power it could blind any radar guided missile with an intense radar pulse... and it could carry missiles itself... short range IIR guided Morfei (its thrust vector motor would allow it to manouver in the thin upper atmosphere air better than most other missiles)...

    It is not going to zip around like a rocket but then the ships it operates wont do more than 40 knots anyway... and most will do rather less.

    Airships' time is gone forever .

    Ended too soon... don't you watch Fringe?

    With modern materials the fire risk is reduced to near zero... add to that the technology in solar and fuel cells and small nuclear power supplies and electric motor propulsion... it is the way of the future where low speed is concerned.

    I have read about designs intended to carry thousands of ton items from where they are made to where they are to be installed.

    Imagine a factory building a 500 ton turbine to be fitted into an hydroelectric dam.... they can either make 50 ten ton bits and send each by truck to the nearest port and sail them to the closest port to the dam and then send the 50 ten ton bits by truck or rail to where the dam is... that means you need a road to the dam.

    Not only could an airship pick the load up from where it is made in one piece already assembled but it could take it directly to where it is needed and used to lower it into place...

    You could use such an airship to deliver all the vehicles and materials to make a runway in the middle of nowhere...

    You could use it for an antarctic base... take the base down for summer and take it back to Russia for winter...

    Needless to say, a future V-22 Russian nearest counterpart & its quad rotor follow ons won't need CAT, and will have many civ. applications!

    They are not actually as fast as fixed wing aircraft though.... those big rotors would be annoying on deck... they would cover a lot of area... in terms of danger during takeoff and landing...

    I personally don't think much of the V-22... it looks unbalanced.

    The V-44 looks a bit more stable but with four sets of blades where are you going to put the radar dish...


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:40 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    My bad, i though you were just talking about the catapult system
    As for ASW, that's (PKR) "ASW cruiser" not (TAVKR) "Heavy aircraft carrying cruiser".
    As for the mission, the Kuz was made to handle most of them, very Multi-role.

    More like they tried to circumvent the Midway nonsense by investing in missiles.

    I would say no nonsense but asymmetric (= cheaper) compensation. Soviet union was not able to invest so much in so powerful fleet.  To counter Us 10 CVSGs you need to build either 10 own or... something to compensate it.

    I believe in value of deck aviation in case of Russia I am a big fan of VSTOL+ TAVKR duo. For fighting off CVSGs you got Kindzhals and or zircons. For cavemen 12-24 strong airwing.

    They had more than enough resources to invest back then, as for the reasons for why not, you could wright a few books about it, but IMO it probly had to do with their doctrine forbidding the use of carriers.

    No, you could build 5, and still have the missiles compensate.

    Interesting concept, but i don't see these aircraft doing much against other aircraft and if the point is to just launch missiles, then build a missile Cruiser or use the choppers.
    The point is to protect yourself against enemy aircraft with your own aircraft, lets hope the F-35 is as bad as they say and this new V/STOL isn't just some flying coffin.


    All i can do is hope that once the problems with S/VTOL present themselves, ....again, that the Navy go's back to the Kuz concept.

    that was actually saying Borisov last year. Either 30ktons light CV or heavy 100ktons . Both nuclear. But what will be chosen?

    If it's Nuclear, then i doubt it's the Lavina platform anymore.
    And again, it's very strange that there was no middle ground of 60-70kT (aka the Kuz concept), from the reports it looks like the lighter was chosen and now we have to wait and see.


    Great then new Russian fighter wont be base don 70 year sold frame but only 50 year soled one!
    If it can do the job, it can do it.

    Then why US is phasing out F-18, Germans Tornados and France cannot reject Rafels for simple reason - nothing would beleft to keep image of great micro-superpower Smile
    F-18 is as good as MiG-29k. BTW Russin /MiG is working anyway on new stealth fighter. Will it be V/STOL? unlikly but I can still hope Smile

    Because they have money to phase out the F-18.
    Because they already invested in the Euro-fighter, so refreshing the Tornado is pointless.
    And France buys French jets, Rafale.

    There have been rumors of a new Mig for years, the only one that's confirmed is the replacement for Mig-31, which is not gonna be stealth or V/STOL.


    a) Navy requested in according to Bndaryev  


    b) RuAF too according to him - Short lane in war times is priceless


    c) STOL fight on half price of Su-30? any African, Asian or Latin country wanting to have a good fighter cheap in maintenance.
    You compare Chinese or Indian size of economy with Russian? or you believe there is no relation between size of economy  and military capabilities?
    A) Who???....... The head of the RuNavy is Vladimir Ivanovich Korolev

    B) The head of the Aerospace forces is Sergey Surovikin, and they've bee doing a lot of highway take-off exercises.

    Borisov is above - MoD deputy Smile

    In that case, he is the  Deputy Defence Minister and doesn't represent the Navy nor the AF.


    Nobody will buy MiG-35 soon. Plane based on 50yold frame. Otherwise upgrading MiG-21 would be even cheaper.

    I think you are getting frame design mixed with the actual age of the frame.
    The Mig-29/35 design has no real issues and are still good, if the frames are still being produced and no real serious changes happen in the world of fighters, than it could go from 2050 and beyond, highly unlikely since world of fighters is constantly changing.
    But remember the Mig-21 was a 50s design.

    The Mig-21 frames stopped being produced in 1985, and they are still used even today, but after 30 years, it's time to replace, most likely by Mig-29 or J-10.
    Heck, the Chinese Mig-21 the J-7 only stopped production in 2013.


    and go bankrupt because of their costs? then you lost war without and shooting. Do you think why Russia  neither build carriers nor AMD?
    Investing in a platform that can actually survive will save more than a platform that can hardly defend itself.
    Why, fear, incompetence, financial restraints, Stalin's words about Carriers only being a weapon of aggression, who knows.
    AMD???


    100kt survives more AShM hits you mean? not 2 but 4-5? or how do you understand this? Why cannot have UKSK-M with S-400 + Zircon missiles? this is for defense. Big carriers make sense only in 1 case there will be a lot of them. Russia neither has resources to build nor to maintain it. Even if economy grows nicely this still will be on level of Japan.

    Neither China nor USA. India with its enormous human capita will grow also to high levels.

    Like i said, i got no interest in a 100kT vehement, but also no interest in a large target with with only a few CIWS.
    Because UKSK and S-400 require space, that this carrier probly wont have much of.
    How can it defend, if it can't defend itself?
    Why do you need a lot of them?
    Resources are not the problem, maintenance is the issue,  but so long as there's no economics collapse and only 2 or 4 are made it should be fine
    Good, because even India intends to get proper carriers.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:23 pm

    The radome can be set (or be raised/lowered) above/below the blades for clearance. Or they could use the same or bigger radar deployed under the fuselage of 2 engine craft like on Ka-31s:
    The radar of the Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter has a 360° coverage and can spot aircraft-size target from 150 km range. Surface ships are spotted from 100–200 km range. Radar can track 30–40 targets simultaneously. The helicopter has a datalink to transfer target tracking data to the command post (land base or mother ship).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-31
    Speed of V-22 is higher than of C-2:
    The C-2 Maximum speed: 343 knots (394 mph, 635 km/h) at 12,000 ft (3,660 m)
    Cruise speed: 251 knots (289 mph, 465 km/h) at 28,700 ft (8,750 m)
    Range: 1,300 nm (1,496 mi, 2,400 km)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_C-2_Greyhound#Specifications_(Reprocured_C-2A)
    Max Cruise Speed 270 kts (500 km/h) SL
    Mission Radius 428 nm – MV-22 Blk C with 24 troops, ramp mounted weapon system, 20 min loiter time
    http://www.boeing.com/defense/v-22-osprey/
    Maximum speed: 275 knots (509 km/h, 316 mph[286]) at sea level / 305 kn (565 km/h; 351 mph) at 15,000 ft (4,600 m)[287]
    Cruise speed: 241 kn (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level
    Range: 879 nmi (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
    Combat radius: 390 nmi (426 mi, 722 km)
    Ferry range: 1,940 nmi (2,230 mi, 3,590 km) with auxiliary internal fuel tanks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#Specifications_(MV-22B)
    If they r going to develop them anyway, might as well have AWACS variant too. If these, the CAT can be dispensed with altogether.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:24 am

    The radome can be set (or be raised/lowered) above/below the blades for clearance. Or they could use the same or bigger radar deployed under the fuselage of 2 engine craft like on Ka-31s:

    Have you seen a V-22?

    The blades are enormous.... the wings they are mounted on could only be called stub wings as they are very short... if you want to mount a large disk on top of the fuselage for a radar then when the blades are in forward flight mode the disk will have to be very narrow for them to fit... and when the blades are turned up for the transition to hover which they have to do... it can only land vertically because the enormous blades would hit the ground if it tried to land with the blades in fixed wing flight...

    A Hawkeye can have a dorsal mounted disk because its engine blades are tiny in comparison and can be mounted further forward in front of the centre of gravity.


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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:38 pm

    Yes, I've seen them up close in California & in close formation flight over my yard in Arizona.
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3FeEXwd5OM4/VWLC9sC59nI/AAAAAAAACxs/EZsy3VWgZsc/s640/Royal%2BNavy%2BV-22%2BAEW%2Band%2BTanker.jpg
    http://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/V22-AEW-2-e1432315735536.jpg

    If it must be larger & won't fit on top with enough clearance, then there's space on the bottom.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Speed of V-22 is higher than of C-2:
    The C-2 Maximum speed: 343 knots (394 mph, 635 km/h) at 12,000 ft (3,660 m)
    Cruise speed: 251 knots (289 mph, 465 km/h) at 28,700 ft (8,750 m)
    Range: 1,300 nm (1,496 mi, 2,400 km)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_C-2_Greyhound#Specifications_(Reprocured_C-2A)
    Max Cruise Speed 270 kts (500 km/h) SL
    Mission Radius 428 nm – MV-22 Blk C with 24 troops, ramp mounted weapon system, 20 min loiter time
    http://www.boeing.com/defense/v-22-osprey/
    Maximum speed: 275 knots (509 km/h, 316 mph[286]) at sea level / 305 kn (565 km/h; 351 mph) at 15,000 ft (4,600 m)[287]
    Cruise speed: 241 kn (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level
    Range: 879 nmi (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
    Combat radius: 390 nmi (426 mi, 722 km)
    Ferry range: 1,940 nmi (2,230 mi, 3,590 km) with auxiliary internal fuel tanks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#Specifications_(MV-22B)
    If they r going to develop them anyway, might as well have AWACS variant too. If these, the CAT can be dispensed with altogether.

    I don't know what Maths you do use, but in my Maths 343 (kt) > 275 (kt).

    The same as 1300 (nm) > 879 (nm) and 33500 (ft) > 25000 (ft)

    About max and cruise speeds, values stated at sea level (sl) could not be compared with values referred to a given flying level.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:58 pm

    I underlined cruise speeds, not max speeds, as they r most efficient for fuel consumption & used on patrols. Also their ferry range is 640mi. over the listed C-2's max range of 1,300 nm. Mission radius can vary depending on mission profile, fuel load, weight, etc., & can be extended by mid-air refueling. https://sofrep.com/75051/watch-v-22-osprey-mid-air-refueling-must-watch-video/
    In the future, they may also refuel helos, CTOLs & STOVLs:
    ..the Osprey can conduct mid-air refuelings of the F-35 and the F/A-18 Hornet, from land or from off an aircraft carrier. ..
    The Corps' 2016 aviation plan calls aerial refueling a future MV-22 mission set, and states that the aircraft will eventually be able to conduct mid-air refueling for other tiltrotor aircraft and helicopters as well as fixed-wing fighters.
    https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2016/10/26/new-system-will-allow-ospreys-refuel-f-35s-flight

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:44 pm

    And you compared stated cruise speed at sea level with stated cruise speed at 28700 ft, two different performances.

    V-22 could not even reach that height, according to the very same source you cited.

    Those V-22's performances, by the way, are accomplished without neither the drag of a large external radome, nor the internal weights of the electronics and related power generation capacity that are integral to an E-2C configuration.

    Install all of those in a V-22 and then take a look at it turning into a flying brick.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:23 pm

    Good points, but they may fly in helo mode when looking for targets, the speed is not needed then anyway. The Ka-31s done it for years. The tilt rotor craft can have a smaller radome for less drag, reach/switch patrol areas faster, & be refueled to extend mission time by other tilt rotor or fixed wing craft. An amphib version may also appear. At least their advantages outweigh any shortcomings in performance vs. fixed wing, + they don't need CATOBAR decks & everything a$$ociated with them!
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:01 am

    If it must be larger & won't fit on top with enough clearance, then there's space on the bottom.

    If you can't fit a disk on top because it is too wide with the props facing forwards then how do you think it could fit underneath with the props facing forward?

    the props will be centre of mass for the aircraft... a big huge external dish and antenna will have to be centred too... they wont go in the same place...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:27 am

    It may be triangular shape like on the pic. link I'm  posting again, or foldable flat type like on Ka-31s. http://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/V22-AEW-2-e1432315735536.jpg

    Or they could use this concept of tail mounted radome:
    http://www.antonov.com/aircraft/antonov-gliders-and-airplanes/an-71

    If given contra-rotating props, (Yak-44 style) their diameter could be reduced & with longer landing gear the craft may be able to land as an airplane.
    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:41 pm

    If you want to fit one then those long beam type antennas like on those Saabs would be fine,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_340_AEW%26C

    but as mentioned... the only advantage of the Tilt rotor design is high speed flight for what is otherwise a helo... you'd get much better performance from a light fixed wing aircraft than any converticraft trying to be something it is not... and that simpler aircraft can be used on land as well as at sea...

    Being able to launch a fixed wing aircraft is useful because transport models make the transfer of materials to the carrier out at sea much easier, but far more importantly that same transport aircraft can be used as an inflight refuelling aircraft that could refuel several fighters.... and keep them flying... and it could do the same for an AWACS platform... though I am thinking a nuclear powered airship would make a carrier AWACS aircraft unnecessary... it could be fitted with exterior surface antenna arrays of enormous size but also carry long wave arrays internally able to detect any stealth aircraft including the B-2 from enormous range 24/7...

    With new electric motors becoming much more powerful and fuel cells allowing the creation of water for ballast or hydrogen for lifting gas it will not have the waste of the older airships.... ie to descend fast you dumped lifting gas... which was expensive if it was helium...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:24 pm

    That type of flat antenna has some shortcomings & not widely used.
    For fixed wing COD & AWACS, they'll need a new common airframe with landing gear for CAT, catapults, extra power, extra maintenance for all of them + the flight deck & arresting gear, extra personnel, resulting in less $, time & space for other things. Tilt rotors can also land on other med./large ships while planes can't. Also, they can do VERTREPs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_onboard_delivery

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfDOgzgAPw9-Nh5MSsBksnTn2Rr1kmvo9DZ54FMgZU-xDhg5MM-w

    Receiving ships have greater freedom of maneuver during VERTREP than conventional alongside transfers; and time loss is minimal in comparison to maneuvering alongside and rigging transfer lines. One Cold War VERTREP was accomplished while the receiving United States destroyer maintained contact with a Soviet submarine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_replenishment
    Ekranoplans &/ tilt rotors will give better cost/benefit ratio vs. fixed wing supply/COD & EWAC/AWACS as they'll use the same airframes as the ISR, SAR/MPA/ASW, attack gunships, air tankers, SOF/ air assault ops., & minelayer/hunter platforms. http://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-news/israels-takeaway-from-juniper-cobra-exercise-give-us-the-v-22-osprey/2018/03/26/

    https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/03/01/the-v-280-tilt-rotor-aircraft-could-change-the-way-air-assault-troops-operate/

    If revived, the Mi-12M could
    with two ..turboshafts driving six bladed rotors, ..transport 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) over 500 km (310 mi) or 40,000 kg (88,000 lb) over 200 km (120 mi). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_V-12#Specifications_(V-12)
     The cancelled Yak-60 had 4x the payload capacity of the CH-47: https://doroshenko-us.livejournal.com/13827.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook#Specifications_(CH-47F)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-60
    There was even naval AEW Yak-24P project:
    https://doroshenko-us.livejournal.com/10040.html

    Heavy helos & V-22s have less range, but even they can carry more than the C-2s:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53K_King_Stallion#Specifications_(CH-53K)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey#Specifications_(MV-22B)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_C-2_Greyhound#Specifications_(Reprocured_C-2A)
    Btw, this bird has many problems: http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16535/confessions-of-a-c-2-greyhound-carrier-onboard-delivery-pilot

    These existing & new Russian helicopters can already supply their CBGs, w/o the need for expensive CATOBAR: 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6#Specifications_(Mi-6)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-10#Specifications_(Mi-10)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26#Specifications_(Mi-26)
    The multipurpose Mi-38..can be used for transportation of cargoes and passengers, including VIPs, used as a search and rescue helicopter and a flying hospital, as well as for flights over the water surface. Also, a military version of the Mi-38T helicopter..[has] a fuel system with explosion protection, additional fuel tanks for increasing the range of flight, special communication equipment and equipment for use by crew members of marine rescue suits..  
    http://www.interfax.ru/russia/594801
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-38#Specifications_(Mi-38)

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-03-19/russian-defense-ministry-take-mi-38t-year
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/russia-eyes-new-military-variants-of-mi-38-helicopte-442203/

    To get extra range, they could take less cargo & more fuel/aux. tanks, given IRPs, &/ land on other ships in the group to offload/refuel before proceeding farther to CVNs.
    I hope u r right about airships!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:20 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add links, text)
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:54 pm

    Interesting concept: https://www.apn.ru/index.php?newsid=37232

    Having lifting fans under the deck will be more economical than STOVL/CAT, & give new lease on life to TAKRs!

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:04 am

    Crackers... the uplift from the deck would not get an aircraft airborne... the air would just flow around it... like a hovercraft with no skirt to contain the air...

    It would also be pretty stupid... blasting air up into the underside of an aircraft designed to fly forwards would be stupid...

    You might as well develop a catapult system like medieval weapons of war that hurled rocks at castles.... throw a plane and while it is flying in the air it can start its engines and keep flying.... duh.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:58 pm

    I don't think so. It's the same as the air blowing down from the fuselage. It hits the deck & moves around the plane. And why can't enclosing barriers rise a few feet around the flight path from under the decks? Even if it won't work for VTOL, it will help moving STOVL aircraft with upward thrust during take off & landings.
    Bigger C-130s had done it 21 times, w/o using CATOBAR, on bigger USN carriers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-12#Specifications_(An-12)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules#Specifications_(C-130H)
    ..the crew successfully performed 29 touch-and-go landings, 21 unarrested full-stop landings, and 21 unassisted takeoffs at gross weights of 85,000 pounds up to 121,000 pounds.
    At 85,000 pounds, the KC-130F came to a complete stop within 267 feet,.. . .. even with a maximum payload, the plane used only 745 feet of flight deck for takeoff and 460 feet for landing. .. “The last landing I participated in, we touched down about 150 feet from the end, stopped in 270 feet more and launched from that position, using what was left of the deck. We still had a couple hundred feet left when we lifted off.” https://theaviationist.com/2014/07/16/c-130-land-on-carrier/
    IMO, if AN-12s can be STOVLed with this method, then anything smaller like Su-34s & MiG-31s (with their Kinzhals) can be as well. And I have no doubt that they'll develop a V-22 counterpart as well:
    The change to a helicopter-style aircraft means more flexibility for the Navy. The Osprey doesn't require a carrier to be at "flight operations," which takes a crew of roughly 50 sailors overseeing the equipment required to land and launch airplanes, Navy officials said. It takes only five people to land the MV-22.
    Other advantages of the Osprey: It can land supplies at night, something the Navy didn't attempt with the C-2. It also uses cargo containers, which can be offloaded by forklift instead of by hand.
    The Osprey also has more lift power -- 10,000 pounds versus 8,500 pounds, Shoemaker said. The flight range is about the same.
    https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/08/03/beginning-end-navy-c-2-greyhound.html
    It may be increased soon to give it longer "sea legs":
    The Navy’s Osprey will add more than 200 miles to the Nautical range of the existing Corps' variant of the aircraft in order to extend its reach out to sea on-board aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships. “The Navy's operational range requirement for the Carrier Onboard Delivery mission is 1,150 nautical miles.  This is required to provide long range aerial logistics support of the Seabase, and reflects an increase of approximately 200 nautical miles to the baseline MV-22B,”...
    The new Osprey, slated to first be operational by 2021, will perform the full range of missions currently executed by the C-2s. This includes VIP transport, humanitarian relief mission and regular efforts to deliver food, spare parts and equipment for sailors aboard carriers. .. In addition, the Osprey is being developed as a tanker aircraft able to perform aerial refueling missions; the idea is to transport fuel and use a probe technology to deliver fuel to key aircraft such as an F/A-18 or F-35C. The first Navy Ospreys will be procured in 2018 with some early “long-lead” items acquired in 2017, Lemaster said. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/new-us-navy-transport-osprey-will-reach-insane-280-miles-per-16334?page=show
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:55 am

    I don't think so. It's the same as the air blowing down from the fuselage.

    No it isn't.

    Think of those indoor parachute systems where a person goes into an enclosed space and an underfloor fan blows them up into the air like they are falling.

    It is enclosed for a reason... if it was just open the air can leak around the object and lift will be lost.

    And anyway... WTF is the point of creating an air hockey table... if you lift it above the board a few metres... who cares?

    It is hardly much use if it can only operate above the carrier deck.

    They already have an invention to allow an aircraft to hover 1 metre above a carrier deck... it is called undercarriage... and while that is very useful for letting it take off, you need more than just that to do so.

    Even if it won't work for VTOL, it will help moving STOVL aircraft with upward thrust during take off & landings.

    No it does not. It would just hold it above the surface of the deck... not even very reliably... and remember what happens in a side gust of wind... when you move a wing tip will clip the deck and you are fucked. Where are you going to put ordinance on these planes? What effect will underwing ordinance have on airflow?

    It is a very stupid idea... and how are you even going to do it in the first place?

    What happens if one fan fails?

    Without that lift the aircraft will crash into the deck surface...

    WTF is wrong with just using wheels?

    IMO, if AN-12s can be STOVLed, than anything smaller like Su-34s & MiG-31s (with their Kinzhals) can be as well.
    And I have no doubt that they'll develop a V-22 counterpart as well:

    The F-111 was originally developed as a naval carrier fighter bomber, but failed because it was just too heavy.

    The radar and missiles that were developed for it eventually ended up on the F-14...

    Why waste time talking about stupid foreign aircraft?

    A C-130 might be able to land on a carrier but it is of no practical use... how are you going to get it in the hangar?

    With one sitting on the deck do you think you can operate normal air operations around it?

    A modified aircraft like the upgraded An-2 could be used with folding wings, but why not develop new aircraft for the purpose?

    They are developing EMALs... why piss around with alternative options?


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:37 am

    Time will tell, but IMO it's doable with enough CV/N speed to have sufficient wind over deck+plane's forward motion/thrust+deck fans to create lift for STOVL. STOBAR systems could be retained.
    No need for AN-12s to stay on CV/Ns for too long & go to hangars. If they break down, stop some/all flight ops & fix it; if that's not an option, dich it! The only time it may be pressed to fly to CV/Ns is if some critical parts/gear/ammo/people must be delivered/evacuated while it's too far from any avail. land base &/ out of range for other aircraft. In any case, they may also build a quad tilt rotor aircraft of similar size.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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