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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:45 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Stop trolling, it's simply useless using such nonsense and false statements.

    Wasp as any other LHD in history has never been an aircraft carrier nor has never had the slightest chance to perform any aircraft carrier like mission.

    The USA tried with the America to get something close to a modern day escort carrier getting rid of the flooding dock and giving away any amphibious capability, crashed their faces against reality of comcept's failure and reversed the project from the third hull reinstating the flooding dock and practically eliminating most of the fixed wing aircrafts support infrastructure, i.e. giving away the escort carrier concept.


    Any mission of any future Russian aircraft carrier will involve precisely what you see in Syria today: bombing cavemen into oblivion.

    Anything bigger than cavemen will involve flyboys with those big fancy missiles and some light warships also with those aforementioned missiles.

    Days of Midway-style naval air war are long over.

    Wasp-class is more than plenty. Stuff a reactor on something like that and build a bundle of them. Cavemen bombing remains an option while they spend 90% of their service life hauling materiel and looking for subs (just like rest of Russian Navy for past 80 years and counting)

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:02 pm

    False, there is no point in such approach because the only meaningful missions for russian carriers would be to provide air cover and local air superiority to the surface fleet in defending russian territory, and exercising deterrence in support of allied nations far from russian territory.

    Bombing "cavemen" does not exist as a mission or requisite for any major navy in the world.

    The second tier western navies pursuing some surrogate naval air power are doing so just to be able to cooperate with main western navies, to get political paybacks.

    Any relevant navy is operating, building, pursuing aircraft carriers trying to get the most in terms of embarked air power for deterrence and if necessary war against peer or near peer (meaning either slightly inferior or superior) opponents.

    China is building aircraft carriers, India is building aircraft carriers, United Kingdom is building aircraft carriers, France is since long years looking for the way to build a second and possibly larger aircraft carrier, Italy has switched from a puny 13.000 tons aircraft carrier to a 27.000 tons light carrier, Brazil has resorted to purchase a several decades old aircraft carrier in order to maintain at any costs trained its naval air wing, waiting for the day it will get the funds to build a brand new one.

    Japan could in short time opt to build some light aircraft carriers as first step to recover the capability of operating them first time since end of II world war.

    Nobody in the world but Spain (maybe) is building LHDs pretending to say they have an aircraft carrier and the related embarked  fixed wing aviation capability.

    Calling an LHD a substitute for a carrier is simply a false statement, without any exception.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:31 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:...Bombing "cavemen" does not exist as a mission or requisite for any major navy in the world...

    And yet with couple of exceptions, that's precisely what they have been doing for past several decades

    Also, other than UK ones, all those you mentioned are pretty much same size or smaller than Wasp/America-class

    So what mission are talking about here again? (keep in mind, dick waving ain't mission)

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm

    False.

    It would be the same as saying the US has developed and maintained the B-2 in order to bomb the Talibans.

    B-2s actually bombed the Talibans, don't they?

    They, meaning any military in the world, will resort to use what is the most useful tool in the arsenal even if confronting shepherds, but they never develop and purchase main weapon systems in order to fight shepherds.

    The US made the mistake amidst the growing casualties suffered in Irak and Afghanistan to develop and purchase in the thousands several specialized MRAPs type, only to dismiss the whole of them as soon as they pulled off from major combat operations in both countries.

    Strangely enough, no weapon system developed to fight against peer opponents has endured the same fate.

    And any balance conscious (sometimes even cash strapped) military in the world is designing its force structure and its equipment in order to fight against likely peer opponents, not to bomb shepherds.

    Even the US themselves have realized the concept, just they did after spending some tens billions dollars before getting there.

    The requisite to build ships, aircrafts and whatever to bomb "cavemen" does not exist.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:58 pm

    And any balance conscious (sometimes even cash strapped) military in the world is designing its force structure and its equipment in order to fight against likely peer opponents

    Which, when it comes to Navy, Russia did, first with Zircon and now with all this fresh stuff

    Only role left for carrier is to (like I said) haul troops and look for subs with helicopters (cavemen are just expected bonus feature)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:59 pm

    First of all... that new missile presented under a MiG-31 flying down Russian airspace and releasing its 2,000km range mach 10 missile over the Crimea is rather interesting... that would reach an ABM site in about 10 minutes... much more practical in terms of time...

    Second the 90 aircraft description will likely include all aircraft... including drones and will have nothing like the attack aircraft component that US carriers have... remember these carriers are not about invasions, the are about air defence of the ships they operate with... if they want to blow the crap out of my house here in New Zealand, they can launch one of their new unlimited long range cruise missiles from the Northern Fleet naval base and have it fly around international waters to the south pacific and into my bedroom window... they don't need to send an entire carrier group.

    Of course handing me nuclear jet motor technology would not be on their agenda so they might keep those for WWIII, but in any case any of their SSGNs could sail down here completely undetected by anyone and launch a conventional cruise missile from thousands of kms off the coast and just sail away with no risk... wipe off all the made in Russia labels and replace them with made in the US or China...

    If, however, my cover is blown and the huge coloured revolution I tried to start fails and they have to evac me out of here, then naval spetsnaz could be used to take me home to Russia, but then if we get a bit of traction and people start supporting me, we could cut off the north island, but we would need military support... not just one bomber, or a few cruise missile attacks... a mobile airfield and a few large ships would be ideal... especially if in time for the Warbirds over Wanaka airshow...

    At the moment the big draw card is some old F-16s from the US... perhaps a carrier with some MiG-29KRs and Su-33s could steal their fire...

    Only role left for carrier is to (like I said) haul troops and look for subs with helicopters (cavemen are just expected bonus feature)

    No, the role of a US carrier might be that... the role of a Russian carrier is to carry aircraft to protect the other ships it came with... using a bigger heavier AWACS aircraft in the near future with the new EM cats.


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:56 pm

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18943/putins-air-launched-hypersonic-weapon-appears-to-be-a-modified-iskander-ballistic-missile    
    Russian Naval Aviation – 32 in inventory as of 2016.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-31#Operators

    I'm sure the Tu-22M3s/160Ms could carry it too!
    I like ur analogy, but Australia will get involved in NZ just like the US did in Central/South America & the Caribbean as it's her backyard.
    The cavemen/shepherds epitet is wrong. Smaller nations & tribes were, & r being supported, armed & used as proxies by bigger "thugs" in their own squables. Only now it's called "Hybrid Warfare". Chinese "laundrymen" saved NK, Vietnamese "pig/rice farmers" kicked all invaders out, & saved N. Vietnam & took Saigon, & Afghan "shepherds" with foreign fighters kicked the Soviet 40th army out. The Pakistan backed the Talibs until 9/11. The Iraqis stopped Khomeini's army from taking Baghdad. Neither of them did it all by themselves.
    But, even if Russia starts building CVNs, I doubt they'll sell more than 1-2 abroad. Who will buy them? Brazil, Egypt, S Africa, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia or re-unified Korea? China & India will build their own, & Turkey won't get any offensive weapons from Russia- they fought 12 wars already! So, good luck!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:36 pm

    But, even if Russia starts building CVNs, I doubt they'll sell more than 1-2 abroad. Who will buy them?

    Why would Russia sell CVNs?

    How many Blackjacks or PAK DAs will they sell?

    With experience of building two CVNs they might get a contract from India to help India develop and build their own CVNs... mainly based on the Russian design but altered (and paid for) by the Indians to better suit their wants and needs.

    Plus the Australians and Americans would not enjoy fighting in the South Island of New Zealand... it is good guerilla country... Smile


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    But, even if Russia starts building CVNs, I doubt they'll sell more than 1-2 abroad. Who will buy them?

    Why would Russia sell CVNs?

    How many Blackjacks or PAK DAs will they sell?

    With experience of building two CVNs they might get a contract from India to help India develop and build their own CVNs... mainly based on the Russian design but altered (and paid for) by the Indians to better suit their wants and needs.

    Plus the Australians and Americans would not enjoy fighting in the South Island of New Zealand... it is good guerilla country...  Smile

    considering india has built it's own CVN russia is in no shape to "Help" them when it comes to carriers it's Russia who needs help.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am

    Considering India has built is own what now?

    Please tell me about Indias new CVN... it is not even laid down yet and is not planned to do so until at least 2025... and more likely 2030...

    Ohh, it might be on the slipway next to the Lider class they are also building... Twisted Evil

    India has already asked for British, French, Russian, and American assistance in the development of the new CVN which will be an impressive and ambitious programme if it ever goes ahead...

    Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20151001031028/http://news.usni.org/2015/07/21/india-asks-international-defense-firms-for-help-with-new-aircraft-carrier-design

    At least they aren't as arrogant as you, believing Russia can't make anything any more...


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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:44 am

    India has already asked for British, French, Russian, and American assistance in the development of the new CVN which will be an impressive and ambitious programme if it ever goes ahead...

    French and US could help but they will ask a lot of money specially for the catapults. British and russian's help for nuclear carrier is questionable as they don't have them but russia will ask far less money.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:32 am

    India has a big trade surplus & can afford expensive imports. But they'll try to build their own CVNs with or w/o help from any1. Russia may offer a CV/N "export version" as the site posted earlier said. But, if they don't sell any, their treasury alone shall foot the bill. I won't be surprised if new icebreaker construction take precedence & CVNs r farther delayed, if not cancelled. Atomflot "needs 6 more", & they r to be built on the same shipyards.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Any relevant navy is operating, building, pursuing aircraft carriers trying to get the most in terms of embarked air power for deterrence and if necessary war against peer or near peer (meaning either slightly inferior or superior) opponents.

    Russian navy is second best in the world and doesn't operate a single carrier right now with Kuznetsov on remont. Different naval strategies emphasize different arnaments and Russia, not having aggresive ambitions nor resources for carriers, stays superior Russian way, focusing on submarines.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:49 pm

    Details on aircraft #s in Syria:
    http://nvo.ng.ru/wars/2018-03-02/1_986_siria.html

    Most future crises/conflicts involving Russia won't be hugely dependent on carrier & land based naval aviation, unless she gets colonies/dependencies overseas with big bases & garrisons on them.
    http://www.apn.ru/index.php?newsid=37094

    China will have even more trade with the most of the same nations as Russia, so any threat to disrupt it will effect her trade too, triggering naval response. Why duplicate an effort & over$pend? As mentioned, RF fleets r widely separated & 2-3 CVNs r needed in both NF & PF as they may not have time to reinforce each other to plug any gaps. Recall the Baltic Fleet Tsushima disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima#Departure_of_the_Second_Pacific_Squadron
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:Considering India has built is own what now?

    Please tell me about Indias new CVN... it is not even laid down yet and is not planned to do so until at least 2025... and more likely 2030...

    Ohh, it might be on the slipway next to the Lider class they are also building...  Twisted Evil

    India has already asked for British, French, Russian, and American assistance in the development of the new CVN which will be an impressive and ambitious programme if it ever goes ahead...

    Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20151001031028/http://news.usni.org/2015/07/21/india-asks-international-defense-firms-for-help-with-new-aircraft-carrier-design

    At least they aren't as arrogant as you, believing Russia can't make anything any more...

    not laid down until 2025.....

    So has whacking it to russia so much deluded your memory or something?

    Geez.....I wonder what that Vikrant-class carrier is. Must be a giant toy made outta plastic.

    Oh again you ignorant child, not saying Russia cannot make anything just that it will take them a god-awful long time to make such things.

    Fanboys I swear annoying no matter which side they are on.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:05 pm

    Until now, for what has been made known to the public, India has still to choice whether the IAC 2 will be powered by nuclear reactors or by gas turbines.

    Having required IAC 2 to have catapults, a nuclear propulsion should be the only viable option, still they seem to be still arguing about it.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:57 pm

    French and US could help but they will ask a lot of money specially for the catapults. British and russian's help for nuclear carrier is questionable as they don't have them but russia will ask far less money.

    The Russians have developed their own new generation nuclear power plant for very large ships... versions of it have been put on very large icebreakers.

    The Russians are also in a similar position to India in having a blank sheet potential in carrier design, so their input would likely be useful.

    And Britain pretty much invented all the serious technologies for carrier operations, including the angled flight deck, the mirror landing system, the catapult (steam), and quite a few other technologies besides... there is still plenty Britain could share with India.

    I won't be surprised if new icebreaker construction take precedence & CVNs r farther delayed, if not cancelled. Atomflot "needs 6 more", & they r to be built on the same shipyards.

    Ice breakers are useful now, and experience operating those NPPs will be valuable for plans for the future use of them in a carrier.

    So has whacking it to russia so much deluded your memory or something?

    I bow to your superior wisdom... whacking off or masturbating effects memory.

    I guess you need to stop spanking the monkey yourself... the Vikrant class is a gas turbine powered carrier... not a nuclear propelled carrier and the fact that it uses American gas turbines for propulsion suggests India went to American for the propulsion...

    Their new CVN... note n for nuclear, they will need a nuclear power plant, for which they could go to France or Russia or the US but they certainly wont be building on their own...

    Oh again you ignorant child, not saying Russia cannot make anything just that it will take them a god-awful long time to make such things.

    Fanboys I swear annoying no matter which side they are on.

    Geez daddy, you sound pretty funny calling me a fanboi child when you don't know the difference between a CVN and CV.

    Having required IAC 2 to have catapults, a nuclear propulsion should be the only viable option, still they seem to be still arguing about it.

    They have been talking about various electric drives as far as I know which separates the propulsion from the screws, by replacing the gearing and transmission.

    Very simply what ever the propulsion system is it is connected to a large electric motor that operates as a dynamo that stores electricity in capacitor banks and battery banks. the electric current can then be diverted to electric motors in pods that propel the vessel and also to systems on board that also need power.

    Whether it is a gas turbine or a nuclear power plant they generate power which is used and stored...

    Separate capacitor banks for Emals should be suffice for normal operations...


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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:50 am

    GarryB wrote:Geez daddy, you sound pretty funny calling me a fanboi child when you don't know the difference between a CVN and CV.

    snigger... Very Happy
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    French and US could help but they will ask a lot of money specially for the catapults. British and russian's help for nuclear carrier is questionable as they don't have them but russia will ask far less money.

    The Russians have developed their own new generation nuclear power plant for very large ships... versions of it have been put on very large icebreakers.

    The Russians are also in a similar position to India in having a blank sheet potential in carrier design, so their input would likely be useful.

    And Britain pretty much invented all the serious technologies for carrier operations, including the angled flight deck, the mirror landing system, the catapult (steam), and quite a few other technologies besides... there is still plenty Britain could share with India.

    I won't be surprised if new icebreaker construction take precedence & CVNs r farther delayed, if not cancelled. Atomflot "needs 6 more", & they r to be built on the same shipyards.

    Ice breakers are useful now, and experience operating those NPPs will be valuable for plans for the future use of them in a carrier.

    So has whacking it to russia so much deluded your memory or something?

    I bow to your superior wisdom... whacking off or masturbating effects memory.

    I guess you need to stop spanking the monkey yourself... the Vikrant class is a gas turbine powered carrier... not a nuclear propelled carrier and the fact that it uses American gas turbines for propulsion suggests India went to American for the propulsion...

    Their new CVN... note n for nuclear, they will need a nuclear power plant, for which they could go to France or Russia or the US but they certainly wont be building on their own...

    Oh again you ignorant child, not saying Russia cannot make anything just that it will take them a god-awful long time to make such things.

    Fanboys I swear annoying no matter which side they are on.

    Geez daddy, you sound pretty funny calling me a fanboi child when you don't know the difference between a CVN and CV.

    Having required IAC 2 to have catapults, a nuclear propulsion should be the only viable option, still they seem to be still arguing about it.

    They have been talking about various electric drives as far as I know which separates the propulsion from the screws, by replacing the gearing and transmission.

    Very simply what ever the propulsion system is it is connected to a large electric motor that operates as a dynamo that stores electricity in capacitor banks and battery banks. the electric current can then be diverted to electric motors in pods that propel the vessel and also to systems on board that also need power.

    Whether it is a gas turbine or a nuclear power plant they generate power which is used and stored...

    Separate capacitor banks for Emals should be suffice for normal operations...

    Oh I didn't see the CV-N part I was in a rush at the time, so I am man enough to admit when I made a mistake. That is rare I do that but hey once and while something gets past you

    That said India will not go to Russia, Russia has ZERO experience building CVN's, they may go to Russia if the US turns them down.

    Not that imo they need help they already made a normal carrier, it's not to much harder to make a CVN at that point, unless they want the catapult.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:44 pm

    They won't go for US help too. Even the best US allies don't have that much help, it's unlikely they give technology to indian for free and india most of the time wants ToT for little money. Politicaly it is also unlikely they chose US.

    French help would be the most logical. They would also buy more naval rafales with that.
    DCNS already offers a carrier for export so they are ready to help india.

    Russian catapults are just drawnings. But there a article on the net saying they showed the Shtorm to indian officials. Who knows what indian said.
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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:01 pm

    India now operates 22 nuclear reactors + 1 leased Russian SSN.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_India#Nuclear_power  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_India
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Nerpa_(K-152)
    The lead SSBN of the class, INS Arihant, was quietly commissioned in October 2016. The Arihant, based on the Russian Project 971 Akula I-class nuclear-powered attack submarine design, primarily serves as a technology demonstrator for the rest of the class and a training platform for future submarine crews.
    The Aridhaman will purportedly have a more powerful reactor than the 6,000-ton Arihant and also be slightly bigger. ..
    the Indian Navy reportedly still plans to induct the second boat of the Arihant-class by 2019. India intents to build at least three more SSBNs of the class. https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/india-to-launch-2nd-strategic-nuclear-sub-by-end-of-2017/
    Extrapolating, they can use 2-4 submarine reactors to power a CVN, like the French carrier Charles de Gaulle with 2 Areva K15 pressurised water reactors (PWR), 150 MWt each, the same type the Triomphant-class submarine uses. So, the French could be asked, but no need to ask either the RF or USA for help on that.
    I dare say that India needs CVs/Ns more than Russia, at least now, given her geopolitical situation.
    In the future, an integral part of such a connection should be a helicopter-carrying ship with a Marine division and an air group on board. Two such ships are planned to be built within the framework of the State Program of Armaments for 2018-2025. Such a [force], with the corresponding logistics forces and ..submarines, will allow solving the overwhelming part of peacetime tasks, including support for Russia's friendly regimes and their policies, and will ensure the deployment of larger forces if necessary. https://iz.ru/665985/aleksei-kupriianov-ilia-kramnik/vremia-vozvrashchatsia
    Notice that future CVNs r not needed, even in the Indian Ocean. As I said before, all things considered, sending a RuN CBG there would do more harm than good. The same goes for other less contested areas.
    Now read this:
    The US Marine Corps (USMC) is in the final stages of preparation for the first operational shipborne embarkation of the Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with the arrival of an advance detachment of aircraft on USS Wasp (LHD-1) on 5 March.
    An undisclosed number of the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) jets from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VFMA) 121 currently stationed in Japan have been deployed to the USS Wasp amphibious assault ship to undertake final preparations ahead of the unit’s first shipborne deployment.
    The squadron will join the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) patrolling the Indo-Pacific region in the coming weeks with the ships of Amphibious Squadron 11 that form the Wasp Amphibious Ready Group. This deployment will mark the beginning of the MEU’s transition over to the F-35B from the McDonnell-Douglas AV-8B Harrier II, which has been in service since the mid-1980s.
    Having been the first operator to declare initial operating capability for the F-35, the USMC is leading the way in developing and rolling out the capabilities of the fifth-generation fighter, and VFMA 121 has been at the forefront of the corps’ effort to develop the F-35B’s tactical capabilities.
    In December 2015 the USMC undertook Exercise ‘Steel Knight’, which was a live-fire wargame that included the F-35B in integrated air and ground operations in an austere environment. This was done to prepare the 1st Marine Division for deployment as the ground combat element of a Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF), and the F-35B performed “exceedingly well”, according to the corps. http://www.janes.com/article/78340/usmc-prepares-for-f-35b-maiden-operational-embarkation
    Enough said, I'll be watching for news on that. The Russian Navy will do the same!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:38 am

    Oh I didn't see the CV-N part I was in a rush at the time, so I am man enough to admit when I made a mistake. That is rare I do that but hey once and while something gets past you

    Anybody can make a mistake, and I respect that you are man enough to accept you made a (minor) mistake.

    Having said that I am disappointed at how fast the abuse was unleashed because you thought I was being a pro Russian Fanboi or anti Indian...

    That said India will not go to Russia, Russia has ZERO experience building CVN's, they may go to Russia if the US turns them down.

    India might actually want to be free to use the technology it incorporates in its new carriers... what happens when Trump gives them the green light and they get US reactors and US EMAL cats and all sorts of flash shit and then India decides to do something that pisses off the Americans and all of a sudden all the support disappears and they have to tie the damn thing up in port because they can't support the vessel on their own and despite likely paying more than top dollar for the tech which they will only ever rent they will never be privy to the secrets or properly trained to fully utilise.

    What makes you think the US is the centre of the universe in Carrier design?

    I would trust the British more than the yanks... even though they get sanction happy a bit too.

    The new large ship reactors the Russians have developed are state of the art... India could do rather worse than look in that direction.

    Not that imo they need help they already made a normal carrier, it's not to much harder to make a CVN at that point, unless they want the catapult.

    Well the obvious differences between a CV and a CVN with cats is the cats and the nuclear power plant... neither of which India would likely be able to master without an enormous investment of money and time.

    With a start date of 2025-2030 I really don't see why they couldn't look to Russia for most of the technology they will be needing.

    Certainly a much more reliable partner than the US could ever be.

    India now operates 22 nuclear reactors + 1 leased Russian SSN.

    Yeah... I use a washing machine... doesn't mean I can make one... except the obvious basic go to stream and find rock...

    Enough said, I'll be watching for news on that. The Russian Navy will do the same!

    Time to get out the popcorn... suffocate or drown...???


    So, the French could be asked, but no need to ask either the RF or USA for help on that.

    Quite true, though regarding the cats I am pretty sure that while they might want Rafales they will want EMALs cats rather than steam cats... AFAIK France has no EMALS option.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 27
    Points : 29
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:57 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Oh I didn't see the CV-N part I was in a rush at the time, so I am man enough to admit when I made a mistake. That is rare I do that but hey once and while something gets past you

    Anybody can make a mistake, and I respect that you are man enough to accept you made a (minor) mistake.

    Having said that I am disappointed at how fast the abuse was unleashed because you thought I was being a pro Russian Fanboi or anti Indian...

    That said India will not go to Russia, Russia has ZERO experience building CVN's, they may go to Russia if the US turns them down.

    India might actually want to be free to use the technology it incorporates in its new carriers... what happens when Trump gives them the green light and they get US reactors and US EMAL cats and all sorts of flash shit and then India decides to do something that pisses off the Americans and all of a sudden all the support disappears and they have to tie the damn thing up in port because they can't support the vessel on their own and despite likely paying more than top dollar for the tech which they will only ever rent they will never be privy to the secrets or properly trained to fully utilise.

    What makes you think the US is the centre of the universe in Carrier design?

    I would trust the British more than the yanks... even though they get sanction happy a bit too.

    The new large ship reactors the Russians have developed are state of the art... India could do rather worse than look in that direction.

    Not that imo they need help they already made a normal carrier, it's not to much harder to make a CVN at that point, unless they want the catapult.

    Well the obvious differences between a CV and a CVN with cats is the cats and the nuclear power plant... neither of which India would likely be able to master without an enormous investment of money and time.

    With a start date of 2025-2030 I really don't see why they couldn't look to Russia for most of the technology they will be needing.

    Certainly a much more reliable partner than the US could ever be.

    India now operates 22 nuclear reactors + 1 leased Russian SSN.

    Yeah... I use a washing machine... doesn't mean I can make one... except the obvious basic go to stream and find rock...

    Enough said, I'll be watching for news on that. The Russian Navy will do the same!

    Time to get out the popcorn... suffocate or drown...???


    So, the French could be asked, but no need to ask either the RF or USA for help on that.

    Quite true, though regarding the cats I am pretty sure that while they might want Rafales they will want EMALs cats rather than steam cats... AFAIK France has no EMALS option.

    As far as i know, France does not produce steam cats.if I a m not mistaken, the steam cats on their only carrier were provided by the US
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    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 399
    Points : 399
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:11 pm

    India now operates 22 nuclear reactors + 1 leased Russian SSN.
    Yeah... I use a washing machine... doesn't mean I can make one... except the obvious basic go to stream and find rock...
    Well, they already produced a reactor for Arihant SSBN, so the bigger Aridhaman will likely need a more powerful reactor which isn't an insurmountable problem for India. I meant help from RF & USA on reactors isn't needed, not on CATs. But, IMO, the NP isn't that essential for Indian carriers, even with CAT on them- China may reportedly have them on its CV-18 & -19:
    https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/china-finishing-first-domestic-cv-17.html
    build nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, a report published on 28 February in the Global Times newspaper suggests.
    China signals intent to build CVNs:

    The state-owned paper quoted an article posted on the website of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) referring to the country’s need to “speed up the process of making technological breakthroughs in nuclear-powered aircraft carriers”.
    The Global Times commented that this was “the first time a state-owned Chinese defence company has openly identified nuclear-powered aircraft carriers on its agenda”.
    The newspaper article also referred to a speech made in late 2017 by CSIC Chairman Hu Wenming, in which he stated that China was capable of building “any type of aircraft carrier”.
    http://www.janes.com/article/78347/china-signals-intent-to-build-nuclear-powered-aircraft-carriers
    reading between the lines, they r not ready for them yet (hence the next 2 CVs), but at least they r becoming more transparent!

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 292
    Points : 292
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:54 pm

    Quite unlikely, if the public data are true.

    The nuclear reactor installed on Arihant is capable of just 73 MW of thermal output.

    That means a far far lower actual power output either for mechanical or electrical power.

    To make a long story short, India would need at very least to install four indigenous reactors in a 65.000 tons carrier to provide enough power generation capability, in turn escalating dramatically maintenance costs.

    It is just Math, and as such it is inescapable: India will have to choose whether to spend ridiculously large sums of money just to power its allegedly indigenously designed CVN with a plethora of indian nuclear reactors, or to save ridiculously huge sums of money employing just a couple of state of the art modern NPP, being there from Russia, France or USA, and making it actually working.

    And the beauty of Math is, it kills (in the literal term) always and again whoever dares to defy her.

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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