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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:10 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Only he knows of top secret plans for Russian V-22-like a/c "to replace all the existing deck aviation", i.e. not only helos & Su-25s, but also supersonic MiG & Su fighters!
    The circle of evidence is complete; he needs to have his head examined, & soon!

    You are not even able to remember the Su-57, that will be for sure in the following Russian aircraft carriers.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:19 pm

    At this point the alone concrete project of aircraft carrier is the Project 23000:

    http://www.deagel.com/Fighting-Ships/Project-23000E_a003273001.aspx

    The ship will carry 100 aircraft including the navalized version of the T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter, Mig-29Ks and Yak-44 early warning and control aircraft.

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 aircrafts Bondarev is talking about. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/

    While Russia anticipates fulfilling the fighter/attack and utility roles with its current aviation projects, its AEW&C capabilities are very anemic. At the moment, the Russian Navy uses Kamov Ka-31 Helixes to fulfill the AEW&C role- essentially refitted coaxial helicopters that carry a large rotating/folding radar antenna underneath the fuselage. While the Helix does actually perform somewhat as needed while deployed aboard the Kuznetsov, it just doesn’t live up to the mark set by fixed-wing AEW&C aircraft like the E-2C/D Hawkeye, currently in shipboard use with the United States Navy and the French Navy. A limited range and a very limited onboard sensor suite are two of the Helix’s biggest flaws. Therefore, Russia if builds a better carrier than the one they have right now, they’re going to need better AEW&C aircraft too. The article in IHS Jane’s did state that Russia expects to build a jet-powered airborne early warning aircraft. However, an AEW&C jet would, in comparison with a turboprop version, likely necessitate heavier maintenance, fly with a reduced range and, in general, just cost a heck of a lot more. So it might actually make more sense for Russia to consider building the propeller-powered alternative instead, and luckily for them, in designing a brand new AEW&C plane, they can call upon the scrapped Yak-44 project.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

    For the following years, a new early warning and control aircraft (in fact a shipborne maritime patrol aircraft) design would be totally different. It can be VTOL and it can be unmanned. The words of Bondarev about a new VTOL plane make sense, but not like the media is taking them.

    Finding new real Russian VTOL projects, like in the case of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier, this is the most modern project of Russian VTOL aircraft that we can find (obviously far closer to the V-22 Osprey than to the Yak-141):

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/vr_konvertoplan_2019/
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russianhelicopters.aero%2Fru%2Fpress%2Fnews%2Fvr_konvertoplan_2019%2F

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1027612/na_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flife.ru%2Ft%2F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2F1027612%2Fna_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30



    This is the form of the newest Russian VTOL projects. A new VTOL early warning and control aircraft can emerge in the future following this line.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:01 pm

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    Not official words,  and not an article I agree in many cases with, but bolded and in red the most interesting part of the article.

    Project 23000 Shtorm aircraft carrier + Poject ????? Priboy amphibious ships (+ Project 23560 Lider destroyer/cruiser) is a combination that I consider interesting.


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:55 am

    "The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft."
    To replace, there must be something to replace- but there r no dedicated EW&C planes now, only helos!
    ".. the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030." Their vision isn't = reality, it's just what they want to get; the MoD can't lay down anything- it doesn't own the yards that build warships, they r owned by United Shipbuilding Corporation!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmash
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Shipyard
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severnaya_Verf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_Shipyard

    Su-57 may or may not get navalized, & Borisov didn't mention it.
    The F-22 & J-20 (the size of the F-111) didn't for a reason.
    http://www.atimes.com/article/pla-admiral-rejects-talk-j-20-fighters-aircraft-carriers/

    Past history teaches that all this talk must be taken with a grain of salt!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:58 am

    Instead of posting non-sense, you should read the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 first:

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.



    And then compare it with the reality, with the real projects. Just to enjoy the Russian Maritime Doctrine becoming real step by step:




    eehnie wrote:At this point the alone concrete project of aircraft carrier is the Project 23000:

    http://www.deagel.com/Fighting-Ships/Project-23000E_a003273001.aspx

    The ship will carry 100 aircraft including the navalized version of the T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter, Mig-29Ks and Yak-44 early warning and control aircraft.

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 aircrafts Bondarev is talking about. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/

    While Russia anticipates fulfilling the fighter/attack and utility roles with its current aviation projects, its AEW&C capabilities are very anemic. At the moment, the Russian Navy uses Kamov Ka-31 Helixes to fulfill the AEW&C role- essentially refitted coaxial helicopters that carry a large rotating/folding radar antenna underneath the fuselage. While the Helix does actually perform somewhat as needed while deployed aboard the Kuznetsov, it just doesn’t live up to the mark set by fixed-wing AEW&C aircraft like the E-2C/D Hawkeye, currently in shipboard use with the United States Navy and the French Navy. A limited range and a very limited onboard sensor suite are two of the Helix’s biggest flaws. Therefore, Russia if builds a better carrier than the one they have right now, they’re going to need better AEW&C aircraft too. The article in IHS Jane’s did state that Russia expects to build a jet-powered airborne early warning aircraft. However, an AEW&C jet would, in comparison with a turboprop version, likely necessitate heavier maintenance, fly with a reduced range and, in general, just cost a heck of a lot more. So it might actually make more sense for Russia to consider building the propeller-powered alternative instead, and luckily for them, in designing a brand new AEW&C plane, they can call upon the scrapped Yak-44 project.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

    For the following years, a new early warning and control aircraft (in fact a shipborne maritime patrol aircraft) design would be totally different. It can be VTOL and it can be unmanned. The words of Bondarev about a new VTOL plane make sense, but not like the media is taking them.

    Finding new real Russian VTOL projects, like in the case of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier, this is the most modern project of Russian VTOL aircraft that we can find (obviously far closer to the V-22 Osprey than to the Yak-141):

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/vr_konvertoplan_2019/
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russianhelicopters.aero%2Fru%2Fpress%2Fnews%2Fvr_konvertoplan_2019%2F

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1027612/na_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flife.ru%2Ft%2F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2F1027612%2Fna_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30



    This is the form of the newest Russian VTOL projects. A new VTOL early warning and control aircraft can emerge in the future following this line.

    eehnie wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    Not official words,  and not an article I agree in many cases with, but bolded and in red the most interesting part of the article.

    Project 23000 Shtorm aircraft carrier + Poject ????? Priboy amphibious ships (+ Project 23560 Lider destroyer/amphibious) is a combination that I consider interesting.

    After reading the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, you can see how the timeline proposed for the laid down of the first unit of the Project 23000 is not in agreement with the Russian Maritime Doctrine. An upright, thorough and smart person would give more credit to the said in the Russian Maritime Doctrine than to the said in this last article.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:01 am

    '
    Those straws are getting mighty thin aren't they? Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:22 am

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 aircrafts Bondarev is talking about. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    Keep in mind that current plans are based on the current state of affairs... when certain things change then plans must change too.

    I mean a few years ago the future of the Russian Navy was based around the 2-4 Mistral carriers they would have in service right now if the French were not such unreliable bastards.

    The successful development of a CTOL light 5th gen stealth fighter with UAE might change the plans again.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    An important point is that many experts view the USN as the pinnacle of naval technology and can't see past the choices they made when they were developing their fleet.

    They chose propeller driven aircraft because they had a suitable design and it has worked well for them.

    As you have pointed out however new technology offers new options... radar and electronics are changing and getting smaller and lighter... UAV technology and indeed other technologies could effect their options.

    Their new replacement for the propeller driven AN-12 is going to be jet propelled so they are not going to have a light propeller driven aircraft with engines powerful enough to get a Yak-44 off a carrier deck.... the engines of the Il-112 will be much to small an alternative... but that is OK.

    Perhaps a VTOL model might be chosen.... perhaps a tethered airship design could be used too... perhaps a combination of several solutions might be chosen to maximise the strengths and minimise the weaknesses of each option...

    20 years ago I would not have thought that a tiny little phone sized computer could outperform even the most powerful desktop computer of the day... yet here we are today...

    "The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft."
    To replace, there must be something to replace- but there r no dedicated EW&C planes now, only helos!

    There is another interpretation of that comment... replace can literally mean to take the place of... so two aircraft... one vertical take off to replace all current aircraft... that could mean a conventional aircraft that can fulfil all attack and fighter and recon and jammer and AWACS roles... like a 5th gen light fighter with AESA antenna arrays facing in every direction with their new generation radars they keep talking about, plus a new generation VTOL aircraft that is helicopter based for all the roles the helos perform like sub hunting, and search and rescue and transport and other duties like landing forces from a helicopter carrier.

    The VTOL aircraft could be like an enlarged Ka-226 with modules for attack and short range air defence and troop and cargo transport and anti ship and anti sub use etc etc.

    The Russian Navy is making its weapon systems and its ships multirole... why would it not do the same with its aircraft?

    Operating VTOL helos from all its ships with a helo deck would be easy because they are already adapted for helos.

    Having modular helos they could change the mission of the helo just the same as they change the loadout of their UKSK launch tubes.

    An at sea replenishment vessel could load new missiles in the UKSK tubes and also load modules for the onboard helos or UAVS at the same time so their air component can continue to compliment the armament loaded when deployed anywhere around the world.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:55 pm

    They're definately talking about VTOL fixed-wing fighters GazB
    If they were talking about helicopters they'd just call them helicopters. Who in God's name calls a helicopter a 'VTOL aircraft'?

    Anyway, here's a recent Sputnik News article on it; not my favoured source but they do bring in good experts sometimes. I've highlighted the interesting stuff in bold:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    VTOL for the 21st Century: Why Russia's Working on New Vertical Takeoff Fighter

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov has confirmed that work is underway on the design of a new vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft. Military observer Vadim Saranov outlines what's driving the military's interest in this class of aircraft, and considers whether Russia's aviation industry has the resources and know-how to build it.

    Last month, the Russian Defense Ministry confirmed that work is under way on a new VTOL plane design. Deputy Defense Minister Borisov said that the naval aviation variants of the MiG-29 and Su-33 fighters in use by the Navy today face becoming obsolete in the next decade. Accordingly, he said, it's logical to start development of a new plane to replace them. Borisov's remarks follow revelations this summer that the MoD has been discussing the issue of a new VTOL design with Russia's military aircraft manufacturers, and that the plane could be "a development of the Yak line."

    The Yak-38, first introduced in 1976, quickly became the USSR's most heavily-produced VTOL aircraft, and enjoyed widespread deployment aboard the Soviet Navy's fleet of Project 1143 heavy aircraft carrying cruisers, including the Kiev, the Minsk, the Novorossiysk and the Baku.

    The Yak-38 garnered a poor reputation among pilots due to a high accident rate (with several dozen of the 231 Yak-38s built destroyed or scrapped following accidents). As military observer and RIA Novosti contributor Vadim Saranov pointed out, the planes' capricious nature limited flight time aboard aircraft-carrying Navy ships to a paltry 40 hours a year.

    "The planes' combat characteristics were also questionable," the journalist wrote. "Due to the lack of on-board radar, it was only conditionally able to engage in aerial combat. The Yak-38's use as a pure attack aircraft looked rather ineffective, since its combat radius in VTOL mode amounted to just 195 km, and even less in a hot climate."

    Given their less-than-stellar record, production of the Yak-38 was stopped in 1989. Gradually withdrawn and scrapped throughout the 1990s, the remaining VTOL Yaks were retired from the Russian Navy in 2004.

    Owing to the Yak-38's difficult operational history, Soviet designers almost immediately began development of a new aircraft – the Yak-141.

    Considered a highly promising design by Soviet and Western observers, the Yak-141 program was canceled after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Lockheed Corporation entered into a partnership with Yakovlev with the official aim of funding the program. Years later, many Russian observers suggested that Lockheed, already working on its X-35 F-35 prototype, effectively bought out the Yak-141's technical documentation for about $400 million.

    A New VTOL for the 21st Century

    Speaking to Saranov about the prospects for a new Russian VTOL design, Russian Navy captain first rank (ret) Konstantin Sivkov said that if the aircraft were developed and fielded, they would become a boon not just to the Navy, but to Russian military aviation as a whole.

    "The main problem in contemporary aviation today is that a jet fighter requires a good runway," Sivkov explained. "There are very few airfields of this kind, and it's quite easy to destroy them through a first-strike attack. Aircraft equipped with VTOL can be dispersed, to a clearing in the woods, for example. The use of VTOL by combat aviation would give it exceptional staying power."

    Not everyone agrees. Oleg Panteleev, editor-in-chief of Russian aviation news agency Aviaport.ru, said that VTOL fighters' heavy consumption of fuel on takeoff, combined with the flexibility of traditional aircraft designs, makes fielding a large fleet of air force VTOL fighters impractical.

    "Conventional fighters can carry out combat missions in conditions of partially destroyed airfield infrastructure from shortened airstrips of less than 500 m," the analyst noted. "The military's plans to build a carrier fleet is something else entirely, however. There, the use of VTOL aircraft would indeed be highly rational."

    The VTOL design would enable strike aircraft to be deployed even aboard small aircraft-carrying cruisers, perhaps even foregoing the need to build a new, expensive, conventional aircraft carrier.

    Sikvov emphasized that Russian design bureaus have no time to lose for creating a new VTOL design. "Aircraft with VTOL capability can be based not just on conventional carriers, [but on much smaller ships.] For example, a tanker equipped with a ramp becomes a kind of aircraft carrier; we had similar projects during the Soviet era," the analyst said. "Furthermore, VTOL aircraft can be used aboard helicopter-carrying combat vessels such as frigates," he added.

    In any case, Saranov pointed out that the case of the F-35 offers a warning about the potential costs involved in the creation of a new VTOL-capable fighter plane, with that program reaching a staggering $1.3 trillion estimated price tag. The journalist noted that creating a plane with performance characteristics comparable to the F-35B will require finding solutions to a series of design problems, including miniaturization of avionics, new generation on-board systems, and a new airframe taking into account the requirements of a VTOL aircraft.

    "The Russian aviation industry has opportunities in this direction, particularly since many systems can be unified with the Su-57 fifth-gen fighter aircraft," the journalist noted.

    At the same time, according to Panteleev, the specially-designed engine may prove to be the new plane's biggest problem. "The developer of the engine for the Yak-38 has ceased to exist. While the technical documentation about the Yak's thrust nozzles, including its afterburner, is probably still around, the specialists with the practical experience to create these components probably aren't around anymore. Here, we've probably lost our expertise."

    These problems notwithstanding, the observer noted that if the Ministry of Defense does go ahead and approve the creation of a new VTOL aircraft, the aviation industry will be able to come up with an appropriate design.

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm

    "They're definitely talking about VTOL fixed-wing fighters..
    If they were talking about helicopters they'd just call them helicopters. Who in God's name calls a helicopter a 'VTOL aircraft'?"
    Exactly! Also, UAVs won't completely replace manned EW&C in the foreseeable future. Otherwise, China wouldn't be working on KJ-600 now. https://www.popsci.com/kj-600-china-plane#page-2
    A naval doctrine is just a piece of paper, a road map- it's not written in stone & given many variables of the real world, its implementation may not go as planned. Borisov was referring to the State Armament Program, not any doctrine.  
    If the Project 23000 construction and entry into service is planned for 2021-2030, they better have $ for it, & soon! If they had the $, Storm wouldn't have been recently offered to India, & we all know it was rejected! Navalized Su-57 (with reduced performance) is possible, but even then it's not an ironclad guarantee that a new CVN will be there for it to land on.
    Even if Adm.K was in top shape all these years, it's not at all essential for the RF defense to deploy it more often than it was up till now. To show the flag in the World Ocean, exercise, provide hum. relief, evacuate nationals, & intervene in a local conflict, 2-3 smaller CVs with STOVL fighters for the price of 1 Storm with navalized CTOL Su-57s would be more feasible, even if by 2021 the RF economy miraculously becomes = to Japan's!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 aircrafts Bondarev is talking about. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    Keep in mind that current plans are based on the current state of affairs... when certain things change then plans must change too.

    I mean a few years ago the future of the Russian Navy was based around the 2-4 Mistral carriers they would have in service right now if the French were not such unreliable bastards.

    The successful development of a CTOL light 5th gen stealth fighter with UAE might change the plans again.

    Long term strategic plans, like the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 are done thinking in different potential scenarios. These plans have a text and content open enough to be flexible to answer to all the different potential scenarios previewed.

    When we talk about the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 it is necessary to take into account that is a post Ukraine and a post Mistral (and foreign material) crisis document. Also it is necessary to take into account that is a plan contemporary with the planning of the intervention in Syria and contemporary with the economic war to Russia of the US and their followers. The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is a document that takes all it and many other things into account.

    Today there is nothing that makes the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 obsolete, and the plan can remain in force without problems until 2030 approximately, when a review is likely. At this point, the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 continues in force, continues valid, and prevails over many other documents and statements.

    In the following comments, you can see  how the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 can affect to the State Armament Program 2018-2025:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211908
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211922
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211924

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032-state-armament-program-2018-2025#204557

    Not only the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 remains, you can see in these comments, how every new material proposed in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is generating new projects, that today (2017 still) are in early stages, but are real, for desperation of pro-US commenters.

    In the other side, there are not real projects related with the Russian Navy appart of the said in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, and if it would be something, it would have not a chance, also for desperation of pro-US commenters.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:01 am

    Let me Summarise that article:


    VTOL for the 21st Century: Why Russia's Working on New Vertical Takeoff Fighter

    Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov has confirmed that work is underway on the design of a new vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft. Military observer Vadim Saranov outlines what's driving the military's interest in this class of aircraft, and considers whether Russia's aviation industry has the resources and know-how to build it.

    Last month, the Russian Defense Ministry confirmed that work is under way on a new VTOL plane design. Deputy Defense Minister Borisov said that the naval aviation variants of the MiG-29 and Su-33 fighters in use by the Navy today face becoming obsolete in the next decade. Accordingly, he said, it's logical to start development of a new plane to replace them. Borisov's remarks follow revelations this summer that the MoD has been discussing the issue of a new VTOL design with Russia's military aircraft manufacturers, and that the plane could be "a development of the Yak line."

    So they have decided to go for a VTOL aircraft.

    The Yak-38, first introduced in 1976, quickly became the USSR's most heavily-produced VTOL aircraft, and enjoyed widespread deployment aboard the Soviet Navy's fleet of Project 1143 heavy aircraft carrying cruisers, including the Kiev, the Minsk, the Novorossiysk and the Baku.

    The Yak-38 garnered a poor reputation among pilots due to a high accident rate (with several dozen of the 231 Yak-38s built destroyed or scrapped following accidents). As military observer and RIA Novosti contributor Vadim Saranov pointed out, the planes' capricious nature limited flight time aboard aircraft-carrying Navy ships to a paltry 40 hours a year.

    "The planes' combat characteristics were also questionable," the journalist wrote. "Due to the lack of on-board radar, it was only conditionally able to engage in aerial combat. The Yak-38's use as a pure attack aircraft looked rather ineffective, since its combat radius in VTOL mode amounted to just 195 km, and even less in a hot climate."

    Given their less-than-stellar record, production of the Yak-38 was stopped in 1989. Gradually withdrawn and scrapped throughout the 1990s, the remaining VTOL Yaks were retired from the Russian Navy in 2004.

    This class of aircraft was a fucking waste of time and money and were completely useless.


    Owing to the Yak-38's difficult operational history, Soviet designers almost immediately began development of a new aircraft – the Yak-141.

    Considered a highly promising design by Soviet and Western observers, the Yak-141 program was canceled after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Lockheed Corporation entered into a partnership with Yakovlev with the official aim of funding the program. Years later, many Russian observers suggested that Lockheed, already working on its X-35 F-35 prototype, effectively bought out the Yak-141's technical documentation for about $400 million.

    We have no reason to believe the Yak-41 would have been any improvement over the MiG-29K... there were plenty of further upgrades they could have applied to the MiG-29K to make it more like the MiG-35 but they were too cheap to spend money... the situation with the Yak-41 would have been no different.


    A New VTOL for the 21st Century

    Speaking to Saranov about the prospects for a new Russian VTOL design, Russian Navy captain first rank (ret) Konstantin Sivkov said that if the aircraft were developed and fielded, they would become a boon not just to the Navy, but to Russian military aviation as a whole.

    "The main problem in contemporary aviation today is that a jet fighter requires a good runway," Sivkov explained. "There are very few airfields of this kind, and it's quite easy to destroy them through a first-strike attack. Aircraft equipped with VTOL can be dispersed, to a clearing in the woods, for example. The use of VTOL by combat aviation would give it exceptional staying power."

    Bullshit... VTOL crap themselves on rough airfields too... FOD is even more of an issue with such aircraft and a 25 ton thrust class engine directing its thrust at the ground will not take off from anything not expensive and especially designed for the purpose... even a modern runway wont take that sort of power directed at it.

    An Su-57 wont take much tarmac to get airborne and even if every Russian air field is obliterated there are motorways it could operate from easily... more easily than the Yak-41 could and it destroyed airstrips too.

    Not everyone agrees. Oleg Panteleev, editor-in-chief of Russian aviation news agency Aviaport.ru, said that VTOL fighters' heavy consumption of fuel on takeoff, combined with the flexibility of traditional aircraft designs, makes fielding a large fleet of air force VTOL fighters impractical.

    "Conventional fighters can carry out combat missions in conditions of partially destroyed airfield infrastructure from shortened airstrips of less than 500 m," the analyst noted. "The military's plans to build a carrier fleet is something else entirely, however. There, the use of VTOL aircraft would indeed be highly rational."

    The VTOL design would enable strike aircraft to be deployed even aboard small aircraft-carrying cruisers, perhaps even foregoing the need to build a new, expensive, conventional aircraft carrier.

    Putting VSTOL aircraft on a helicopter carrier means it is no longer a helicopter carrier... and WTF do you need strike aircraft for? The Navy has missiles and artillery for the role if needed.


    Sikvov emphasized that Russian design bureaus have no time to lose for creating a new VTOL design. "Aircraft with VTOL capability can be based not just on conventional carriers, [but on much smaller ships.] For example, a tanker equipped with a ramp becomes a kind of aircraft carrier; we had similar projects during the Soviet era," the analyst said. "Furthermore, VTOL aircraft can be used aboard helicopter-carrying combat vessels such as frigates," he added.

    A VSTOL aircraft taking off and landing on a helo pad on a frigate will not be able to fly very far or with very much and would be practically as useless as the Yak-38M.

    In any case, Saranov pointed out that the case of the F-35 offers a warning about the potential costs involved in the creation of a new VTOL-capable fighter plane, with that program reaching a staggering $1.3 trillion estimated price tag. The journalist noted that creating a plane with performance characteristics comparable to the F-35B will require finding solutions to a series of design problems, including miniaturization of avionics, new generation on-board systems, and a new airframe taking into account the requirements of a VTOL aircraft.

    "The Russian aviation industry has opportunities in this direction, particularly since many systems can be unified with the Su-57 fifth-gen fighter aircraft," the journalist noted.

    The F-35B is totally inferior to all other versions of the F-35... why not just make a naval version of the Su-57 and get a good plane?

    At the same time, according to Panteleev, the specially-designed engine may prove to be the new plane's biggest problem. "The developer of the engine for the Yak-38 has ceased to exist. While the technical documentation about the Yak's thrust nozzles, including its afterburner, is probably still around, the specialists with the practical experience to create these components probably aren't around anymore. Here, we've probably lost our expertise."

    The next gen engine will be even more powerful and need even more exotic materials to allow Helipad surfaces and carrier decks to survive it use even for a couple of minutes.

    These problems notwithstanding, the observer noted that if the Ministry of Defense does go ahead and approve the creation of a new VTOL aircraft, the aviation industry will be able to come up with an appropriate design.

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    So why build heavy carriers if you are going to waste money on a VSTOL piece of crap?

    The whole point of the VSTOL aircraft is so you don't need to build real carriers... VSTOL aircraft are a waste of time and energy... a super carrier even more so.... for Russia.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:06 am

    Not only the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 remains, you can see in these comments, how every new material proposed in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is generating new projects, that today (2017 still) are in early stages, but are real, for desperation of pro-US commenters.

    The RMD2015 is a plan for the future... plans change.

    In the 1980s the plan included VSTOL aircraft like the Yak-38M and the Yak-41... by the mid 1990s the Yak-41 was cancelled and the only aircraft that went forward was the Su-33.

    In the 2000s the Indians bought and paid for production of the MiG-29K2 so the Russian Navy took advantage and piggy backed an order too.

    They would not have planned to get MiG-29Ks, but they got them because there was an opportunity.

    I rather suspect any VSTOL they might design will clearly show itself to be inferior to anything they could put on the Kuznetsov and it will eventually be cancelled too, but the big question is what will UAE money create with MiG building a light 5th gen fighter... an aircraft that could include a VSTOL model.... I hope not.... bloody waste of money., but never say never.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  eehnie on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:30 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Not only the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 remains, you can see in these comments, how every new material proposed in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 is generating new projects, that today (2017 still) are in early stages, but are real, for desperation of pro-US commenters.

    The RMD2015 is a plan for the future... plans change.

    In the 1980s the plan included VSTOL aircraft like the Yak-38M and the Yak-41... by the mid 1990s the Yak-41 was cancelled and the only aircraft that went forward was the Su-33.

    In the 2000s the Indians bought and paid for production of the MiG-29K2 so the Russian Navy took advantage and piggy backed an order too.

    They would not have planned to get MiG-29Ks, but they got them because there was an opportunity.

    I rather suspect any VSTOL they might design will clearly show itself to be inferior to anything they could put on the Kuznetsov and it will eventually be cancelled too, but the big question is what will UAE money create with MiG building a light 5th gen fighter... an aircraft that could include a VSTOL model.... I hope not.... bloody waste of money., but never say never.

    We can say when all the plans of the 1980s that you mention changed. Important political changes like the fall of the Soviet Union caused the changes. Not sure if you expect something like this happening again. In every case, there are official sources that announce and confirm the changes in the plans. Other minor changes that you mention on variants have not enough entity to change the basic defense strategy and are done without problems inside the limits of the text of the strategic documents.

    When changed the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015?

    Which is/are the document/documents that rule out and/or surpass the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015?

    Which are the changes included?

    There is nothing of this. The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 remains in force without changes.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:48 pm

    "So why build heavy carriers if you are going to waste money on a VSTOL piece of crap?
    The whole point of the VSTOL aircraft is so you don't need to build real carriers... VSTOL aircraft are a waste of time and energy... a super carrier even more so.... for Russia."
    That's my point: they r reviving STOVL for small TAKRS/CVs as a stop gap before CVNs r built, & in (very likely) case those get delayed/cancelled, at least they'll have something instead of nothing!
    On land, STOVL fighters can use portable airfield sections designed to withstand extreme heat & perhaps ski ramps dropped/brought by heavy lift planes/helos, similar to these:
    https://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/these-portable-runways-helped-win-war-pacific-180951234/ http://www.megadeckrigmats.com/portable-airfield-mats.php

    What they really need r small nuclear powered artificial islands made of concrete, capable of handling all kinds of aircraft, that can be moved & anchored when/where needed.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:"So why build heavy carriers if you are going to waste money on a VSTOL piece of crap?
    The whole point of the VSTOL aircraft is so you don't need to build real carriers... VSTOL aircraft are a waste of time and energy... a super carrier even more so.... for Russia."
    That's my point: they r reviving STOVL for small TAKRS/CVs as a stop gap before CVNs r built, & in (very likely) case those get delayed/cancelled, at least they'll have something instead of nothing!
    On land, STOVL fighters can use portable airfield sections designed to withstand extreme heat & perhaps ski ramps dropped/brought by heavy lift planes/helos, similar to these:
    https://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/these-portable-runways-helped-win-war-pacific-180951234/
    http://www.megadeckrigmats.com/portable-airfield-mats.php

    What they really need r small nuclear powered artificial islands made of concrete, capable of handling all kinds of aircraft, that can be moved & anchored when/where needed.

    Yap, there's simply no way around the carrier.
    end of story.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:04 am

    On land, STOVL fighters can use portable airfield sections designed to withstand extreme heat & perhaps ski ramps dropped/brought by heavy lift planes/helos, similar to these:

    For years the sales pitch was that the Harrier and aircraft like it could be disbursed at the first sign of trouble and take off from anywhere... supermarket carparks, short strips of road etc etc

    Invulnerable on the ground because you never knew where they were...

    The problem was that these aircraft need weapons and people to keep them operating and lots and lots of aviation fuel, and as they get more powerful they need special equipment.... heat resistant tiles like those fitted to the space shuttle to land on on aircraft carriers and anything else you expect it to land on including helipads.

    Most Russian naval helipads have nets on them to reduce slippage.... one landing from a VTOL supersonic fighter and that will be burned off.

    A supermarket carpark is not hard enough for a VTOL fighter.... the Yak-41 only visited Farnborough and damaged their runway when it briefly deflected its main engine thrust downwards for a take off.... note it damaged the runway on an international air field and it did not even take off vertically...

    The crap about operating from anywhere is just that... when taking off vertically the payload is greatly limited and fuel levels reduced too, so helipads are out and anything without a ski jump would also be a waste of time.

    While I agree that they have not said it was a helicopter I would argue they have not said it was a fixed wing supersonic fighter... for all we know they might be talking about a vertical takeoff UAV or even airship.
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    medo

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:08 pm

    Most of western runways are made from asphalt and russian ones are made from concrete. VTOL planes have problems with asphalt, not with concrete. Arctic bases are made from concrete blocks, because there is too cold for asphalt. Not all arctic bases, specially those on Arctic islands, will have full airfields with 2 km to 3 km long runways. But for sure they will have heliports at least for whole year search and rescue operations. Helicopters on Arctic are not takeing off vertically, but with short run on runway to not lift too much snow and ice in the air. This heliports could be as well used by VTOL planes operating in short take off and landing mode. Even a plane like Yak-141 is good enough to do the job there. Their job will be anti-ship patrols armed with anti-ship missiles and air patrols against strategic bombers, which could come through North Pole or against maritime patrol planes. There will not be many foreign fighters as they are stationed too far away. They could well work together with MiG-31BM, which will operate from bigger continental Arctic airbases.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:52 pm

    Right! Harriers at US bases use concrete pads & strips: http://www.aeroresource.co.uk/operational-reports/harrier-town-usa-mcas-yuma/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu54pdBsA-o

    Another advantage of STOVL is it can take off & land with greater margin of safety in inclement weather & low visibility, which happens often in the North, Siberia & the RFE.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:21 am

    You are not getting it... claiming VSTOL aircraft are superior because when all the airfields are obliterated they can take off from any old strip of firm ground is bullshit... they need hard flat places just like conventional modern 5th gen fighters... a 400m strip would allow a Flanker or Fulcrum or Su-57 to take off with full fuel and air to air weapons... for a VTOL it needs to be concrete and can't be normal motorways.

    Right! Harriers at US bases use concrete pads & strips

    Harriers don't have 20-25 ton thrust motors with full after burners...

    Arctic bases are made from concrete blocks, because there is too cold for asphalt. Not all arctic bases, specially those on Arctic islands, will have full airfields with 2 km to 3 km long runways.

    They need proper air strips more than they need dinky little helo bases... a proper landing strip means decent sized aircraft can bring in supplies and support the base better than if it could only be supplied by helicopter.

    Even just a 600m long runway would be plenty for a modern fighter, but 1,200m would allow heavier transports to operate there.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:23 am

    A normal aircraft rolls forward during takeoff which limits the amount of dirt and crap going into the intake. A vertical take off or landing means holding position in the plume of crap being blown up by the engines... like a helo only 100 times more so.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:40 pm

    They can use CTOL mode on highways too, like these:








    http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=1632

    Viggens & Grippens r STOL, & Russians can avoid using VTOL method with their STOVL fighters while on asphalt roads like shown above.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:00 am

    If CTOL aircraft can take off from stretches of highway why spend money developing STOL and VTOL aircraft with lift engines?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:10 pm

    Because they can use shorter stretches of roads &/ concrete pads + better fit on smaller CV/Ns w/o CATs. Building & maintaining long airstrips is expensive anywhere; in the Russian North, Siberia & the RFE many times more.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:04 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Because they can use shorter stretches of roads &/ concrete pads + better fit on smaller CV/Ns w/o CATs. Building & maintaining long airstrips is expensive anywhere; in the Russian North, Siberia & the RFE many times more.  

    In syberia everything is expensive.

    "lilly pad" makes sense only if you have other means of transportation to the given area.

    It is not true in Siberia.


    And it is a simple cost benefit calculation.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:29 pm

    Siberia below the Arctic Circle will be used as deep rear staging/repair area. There r lakes, reservoirs & rivers on which flattop ships/barges could be placed for STOVL fighters. Believe me, the Russians will find a safe way to operate them w/o damaging anything with hot downwash.
    They could even equip them with floats/skis for water landings & take offs!
    The concept isn't new:
    https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/xf2y-1yf2y-1-sea-dart-a-jet-fighter-on-water-skis/

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    Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

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