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    Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:47 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:lets agree on context, pls correct if i misunderstood something
    1) we were talking about MiG-29k vs F-35 and not Russia vs US
    IMHO MiG has no chances now. Check its Zhuk version vs F-35 available parameters
    That discussion is rather meaningless to me and not fair to start with, don't know why the insistence. MiG-29K are a stop-gap measure. Nobody is saying they are 1 on 1 as capable as newly developed 5G fighter, that would be absurd unless the 5G fighter is a complete failure. MiGs are decently updated, operational naval fighters of which Russia has just bought 2 sqdn., so most probably they will use them at the K in the 20's, as main fighters until they have something better and in lesser roles until they are worn out. Since you defend Russia will not seek direct confrontation with USN and is ok with missiles as deterrent and low-profile posture in the high seas, I do not understand your problems with MiGs. They will be substituted in time so relax.

    BTW still confused about Zhuk A/AM since they have changed names so many times. Some sources indicate 250 km range for the radar. I guess it will not be frozen until they are ordered in numbers.

    controversial to me. Su-30SM has 3,000km range on internal fuel? miG-29SM 1800 (on MiG avia afik)  - F-35 has to available data 2,200km where with new "upgrade"of engine mgmt shall increase the range.


    Su-30 has 2 engines and ~9,600kg of fuel (wiki)
    F-35 1 engine and 8,900kg of fuel

    I'm not sure if ranges are that different

    Pzyload? Su-30sm ~8tons same as F-35
    Su-35 has 3600 km on internal fuel. F-35, at best, something above 2800. Considering size of airframe it is not the same for a Flanker to carry 8 tons than for a F-35, even when it could lift with them. Unclear in any case if max payload is compatible with max fuel.

    Flankers can carry more missiles, and some really long ranged ones that go beyond what is available to US fighters at all. F-35 loaded to max payload would be easily seen on radar and terribly slow so it would be worse than a F-15 for the role.

    a scrutiny like checking MiG take off  on F-18 in videogame simulator?
    Your apparent incapacity to check the physics behind a simulation tool is fortunately not enough to rule it out. Make the calculations yourself and prove the results are not valid, this is physics not statements from officials so they can be checked by any one, any time.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201808231750-f2hv.htm

    and 13 more shall join them. But still 300 + already built F-35 and no serial Su-57 yet.
    But nothing. Your source (a self discrediting article) could not be tracked to anything official and your statement about lack of Su-57 contracts was inaccurate, F-35 has nothing to do with that.

    You dotn have to believe me of course,  but do you have any feasible explanation why only 2 Su-57 were ordered and 15 is planned?
    they are so cheap?
    I rather tend to think they want, on the one hand, to be sure everything in the production goes well before ordering more units, and on the other, to wait for the 2nd stage engine. Price should not be a huge surprise to MoD at this stage of program.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:33 pm

    LMFS wrote: BTW still confused about Zhuk A/AM since they have changed names so many times. Some sources indicate 250 km range for the radar. I guess it will not be frozen until they are ordered in numbers.

    http://kaf401.rloc.ru/files/BRLSChars.pdf
    https://mai.ru/desktop.html


    here you have more recent one
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/guk-me/
    http://www.missiles.ru/AESA_Phaz-2009.htm

    even 300km -destroyer size, front - 120 km 5m2. In wiki there is table where up to 200km fighter but in last link here this fighter is 5m2 and "was to be" later 1m2.




    LMFS wrote: Su-35 has 3600 km on internal fuel. F-35, at best, something above 2800. Considering size of airframe it is not the same for a Flanker to carry 8 tons than for a F-35, even when it could lift with them. Unclear in any case if max payload is compatible with max fuel.

    Flankers can carry more missiles, and some really long ranged ones that go beyond what is available to US fighters at all. F-35 loaded to max payload would be easily seen on radar and terribly slow so it would be worse than a F-15 for the role.

    max flue and max payload are EXOR operations to me. Su-34 with max payload radius is 700km? feel free to check, Im not sure how long Su-35 can go with full payload but again, airfields network is not so dense in Russia and Su-35 with max payload unlikely will make those 1600km radius as in wiki. And u-35 is also slower with 12 pylons with missiles.

    Su-35 radar can see (wiki) 1m2 form 400km but how long can see 0,01m2? IDK. In order to use all BVR missiles you need to see hwere to shoot, and missile has to be in "guaranteed destruction range". So IMHOit is not so easy.

    Of course Su-35 is air superiority fighter unlike F-35 but my point is that Su-35 vs, F-35 would no be a piece of cake. BTW recent dada I hae is 320 F-35 and 70 Su-35.



    LMFS wrote:
    a scrutiny like checking MiG take off  on F-18 in videogame simulator?
    Your apparent incapacity to check the physics behind a simulation tool is fortunately not enough to rule it out. Make the calculations yourself and prove the results are not valid, this is physics not statements from officials so they can be checked by any one, any time.
    [/quote]


    physics behind vid game? well so which formulas does this game use? Please not mix vid games unless you can calculate with precision this. Can you elaborate in detail which formulas
    you used for your calculations? Thnaks in advance. thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup



    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201808231750-f2hv.htm

    and 13 more shall join them. But still 300 + already built F-35 and no serial Su-57 yet.
    But nothing. Your source (a self discrediting article) could not be tracked to anything official and your statement about lack of Su-57 contracts was inaccurate, F-35 has nothing to do with that.[/quote]

    ok do deputy MoD is not reliable but old vid game for kids with is + flying concrete runways ? as you wish. And yes F-35 number DOE have a lot to do with Su-57 procurement. That's and other Vgen programes are the main driving force behind it.




    LMFS wrote:
    You dotn have to believe me of course,  but do you have any feasible explanation why only 2 Su-57 were ordered and 15 is planned?
    they are so cheap?
    I rather tend to think they want, on the one hand, to be sure everything in the production goes well before ordering more units, and on the other, to wait for the 2nd stage engine. Price should not be a huge surprise to MoD at this stage of program.

    so wjy MiG-35 was ordered in 6 pieces in 2018 till 2023 (so one per year)? it it is so cheap and so good and money is in full supply?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Today at 6:52 am

    4,500 Marines, F-35 Squadron on Standby in Middle East as U.S. Mulls Syria Exit


    Can any1 see flight deck damage?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB Today at 9:19 am

    Can any1 see flight deck damage?

    Trying to be a dickhead?

    That is clearly not taking off vertically... and it is pretty clear to see it is not in full AB.

    Rolling takeoffs take advantage of wing lift to add more weight in fuel and weapons to operational payload and mean full take off thrust is not needed.

    Vertical takeoffs require full AB and restrict weights because there is no additional lift from the wings.

    Besides... they haven't used that carrier to support operations... it is their running away carrier to take things as they are leaving in case they have to do it under fire in a hurry... hardly a good reference for buying such equipment.

    Regarding the other bollocks... GD... get over it... they have MiG-29KRs in service and odds are they are not going to get any replacements for the next 10 years at least even if this new STOL aircraft design is fully funded.

    You admit the MiG-29KR against US F-35s is a pointless discussion, and even if it wasn't why are you comparing existing stats when they wont go on a sea deployment for the next 4-5 years anyway... which is plenty of time to develop their new photon based radars which will make US F-22s, F-35s and B-22s all obsolete overnight.

    They could put these new radars on helicopters and they would still be better off than with a VSTOL fighter aircraft.

    BTW Stop mixing the numbers... you keep using the range and fuel weight figures for the land based conventional F-35 when it is supposed to be for the VSTOL F-35...

    You also keep bullshitting on about max weights when no fighter aircraft anywhere EVER operates at max weights except for marketting photos.

    With only having 6 internal weapon stores positions the F-35 could not even carry its full weapon payload... they use the same bullshit with the B-1B claiming it can carry x amount of weapons but that includes external weapons which dramatically shorten range and reduce speed and have never been fitted.

    Of course Su-35 is air superiority fighter unlike F-35 but my point is that Su-35 vs, F-35 would no be a piece of cake. BTW recent dada I hae is 320 F-35 and 70 Su-35.


    Just have the Su-35s operate over the IADS of the surface fleet and those pansy F-35s wont go anywhere near... and besides those Su-35s could carry 1,500km range Gzur missiles.... or should I say the Su-57K will...
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos Today at 4:12 pm

    Of course Su-35 is air superiority fighter unlike F-35 but my point is that Su-35 vs, F-35 would no be a piece of cake. BTW recent dada I hae is 320 F-35 and 70 Su-35

    2 or 3 kilo class can take care of the carrier that those f-35 come from. 1 torpedo hit against all the carrier and 0 f-35 able to fly. Then su-35 will launch kh-35s all day untill every single ship is destroyed.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Today at 8:32 pm

    That is clearly not taking off vertically... and it is pretty clear to see it is not in full AB. Rolling takeoffs take advantage of wing lift to add more weight in fuel and weapons to operational payload and mean full take off thrust is not needed. Vertical takeoffs require full AB and restrict weights because there is no additional lift from the wings.
    Absolutely! That's why they'll seldom use the VTOL mode; the deck will be made heat resistant & last a long time.

    Besides... they haven't used that carrier to support operations... it is their running away carrier to take things as they are leaving in case they have to do it under fire in a hurry... hardly a good reference for buying such equipment.
    UDKs will be the 1st in to show the flag & "to kick the door" & the last out when the crisis ends. 1 doesn't exclude the other!
    MEU stands for Marine Expeditionary Unit- its mission include humanitarian assistance, naval diplomacy, emergency evacuations, special ops, Intel gathering, assault, power projection, & SAR, to name a few:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_operations_capable#Conventional_operations
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_operations_capable

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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