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    Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:20 am

    USN/USAF sacrificed energy-maneuverability principle to optimize as stealth , same time Russians sacrificed stealth to get better agility. You dont need to be maneuverable if you shoot first before anybody can see you.

    Yes, in Vietnam, the F-4 Phantoms didn't need guns because their Sparrow missiles and amazing radars meant they would never have to dog fight enemy aircraft... how did that turn out again?

    Even today BVR missiles are called Missiles.... they are not called Hittiles... and if the BVR missiles fail... which is what will most likely happen when modern fighters meet, then it comes down to WVR missiles... and DIRCMs suggests it will then come down to guns... and the MiG is an excellent gun fighter... pull the trigger and swing the nose of the plane around to the target and the computer will control the burst of 30mm cannon shells and splash one F-35... within gun range its stealth coatings will not save it...

    I alwasy thought that guns on fighters are like "PDW" weapons of last chance.

    In the colonial fights the west loves to fight they may never use them, but against a peer enemy or an enemy that is well supported... and with US sanctions I suspect Russia will now sell Su-35s to anyone who has the money... their ability to turn up and dominate the air space is being lost... hell the addition of an IADS and S-300 to Syria and Israeli F-35s wont even enter Syrian air space... and the US has now run away... when it has F-22s there that are supposed to be designed for that sort of thing.

    You don't see the Russians squealing that the Turks might test S-400 batteries against F-35s... wonder why?

    Who has a crap hand and is running away from the card table rather than play their hand?
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:21 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:USN/USAF sacrificed energy-maneuverability principle to optimize as stealth
    Care elaborating? F-22 seems to prove exactly the opposite.
    same time Russians sacrificed stealth to get better agility.
    What makes you think that is the case?
     You dont need to be maneuverable if you shoot first before anybody can see you.
    So they can make VLO planes but the rest cannot. And they can detect stealth planes (see E-2D claims) but the rest cannot. That sounds just fine to me lol1 lol1
    BTW Su-57 is 2x as much expensive as Su-35 and almost 4x as much as MiG-35

    Do you have sources for that?
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:24 am

    GarryB wrote:
    USN/USAF sacrificed energy-maneuverability principle to optimize as stealth , same time Russians sacrificed stealth to get better agility.  You dont need to be maneuverable if you shoot first before anybody can see you.

    Yes, in Vietnam, the F-4 Phantoms didn't need guns because their Sparrow missiles and amazing radars meant they would never have to dog fight enemy aircraft... how did that turn out again?

    Even today BVR missiles are called Missiles.... they are not called Hittiles... and if the BVR missiles fail... which is what will most likely happen when modern fighters meet, then it comes down to WVR missiles... and DIRCMs suggests it will then come down to guns... and the MiG is an excellent gun fighter... pull the trigger and swing the nose of the plane around to the target and the computer will control the burst of 30mm cannon shells and splash one F-35... within gun range its stealth coatings will not save it...


    Which MiG you are talking about? 29k? it has no optical sensors,It has 2000s PESA radar that wont see a fighter sized object (non stealth) from over 80kms?
    As for BVR is their performance is so poor why Russia is wasting money on them? Vietnam tech was 50 years ago. Why planners should still live old dreams and win already ended wars from the past?



    As for theoretical duel:
    If everything fails on F-35 it returns home. Safely. Another F-35 takes over. There will be never parity over seas nor over land. Anyway in 10+ years very likely well direct energy weapons will take over antimissile role and IMHO also gun role in AA fight.




    GB wrote:In the colonial fights the west loves to fight they may never use them, but against a peer enemy or an enemy that is well supported... and with US sanctions I suspect Russia will now sell Su-35s to anyone who has the money... their ability to turn up and dominate the air space is being lost... hell the addition of an IADS and S-300 to Syria and Israeli F-35s wont even enter Syrian air space... and the US has now run away... when it has F-22s there that are supposed to be designed for that sort of thing.

    You don't see the Russians squealing that the Turks might test S-400 batteries against F-35s... wonder why?

    Who has a crap hand and is running away from the card table rather than play their hand?

    I would not mix politics with qualities of weapons. Otherwise you can say why Russians are afraid to use Su-57 in Syria? Israelis dont want to escalate to direct confrontation with Russians and Im sure that US is pushing them not to use F-35 not to let Russians check their real RCS.

    Su-35 is surely good fighter but saying that 12-24 Su-35 will dominate airspace is really strong statement.



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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:42 am

    Which MiG you are talking about? 29k? it has no optical sensors,..
    Is this not optical?:
    The MiG-29K/KUB fighters have multichannel infra-red search and track (IRST) system with target designation system. The aircraft can also be installed with IR and laser sighting devices for ground targets illumination. https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/mig-29k-carrier-based-multirole-fighter-aircraft-russia/
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:22 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:USN/USAF sacrificed energy-maneuverability principle to optimize as stealth
    Care elaborating? F-22 seems to prove exactly the opposite.

    elaborate of what? why F-35 was not to be agile but stealth? ask US AF decision makers.
    F-22 was not to be strike aircraft isnt it ?



    LMFS wrote:
    same time Russians sacrificed stealth to get better agility.
    What makes you think that is the case?

    words of chief R&D o PAK FA program in voyennaya priomka (was posted here or another thread -radar one? - a couple of weeks ago). That Russians deliberately traded stealth for agility.





    LMFS wrote:
     You dont need to be maneuverable if you shoot first before anybody can see you.
    So they can make VLO planes but the rest cannot. And they can detect stealth planes (see E-2D claims) but the rest cannot. That sounds just fine to me  lol1  lol1

    Everybody can! so now we have operational:

    USA: 180 F-22 and 300 F-35 built
    Russia: 0
    China: ? 20 ?


    BTW how many Russian operational fighters have ROAFR radar? 0, AESA? 0.





    LMFS wrote:
    BTW Su-57 is 2x as much expensive as Su-35 and almost 4x as much as MiG-35

    Do you have sources for that?
    [/quote]

    It was repeated at nausea, could you perhaps record this time? thanks

    Su-57 - ₽3,2 bn,
    flyaway cost, with "engine of first stage", no superduper ROAFAR
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/08/09/deadweapons/



    Su-35 ₽1,73 bln unit
    there were two batches - first 48 units / ₽66bln + second 48 units / - ₽100bln -> - ₽1,73 bln unit

    https://lenta.ru/news/2015/08/11/su35buy/


    https://ria.ru/20140812/1019696643.html
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:47 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Which MiG you are talking about? 29k? it has no optical sensors,..
    Is this not optical?:
    [i]The MiG-29K/KUB fighters have multichannel infra-red search and track (IRST) system


    yup, thanks for correcting me welcome welcome welcome  Then OLS-29 is mounted on MiG-29k. cool thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:32 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:elaborate of what? why F-35 was not to be agile but stealth? ask US AF decision makers.
    F-22 was not to be strike aircraft isnt it ?
    Ok so F-22 is agile and stealth and F-35 is not agile due to design decisions related to its role as strike fighter. I would add, to the unfortunate combination of different and to some extent incompatible requirements (light fighter + heavy strike plane + STOVL)

    words of chief R&D o PAK FA program in voyennaya priomka (was posted here or another thread -radar one? - a couple of weeks ago). That Russians deliberately traded stealth for agility.
    Fair enough, every design has compromises between aero and stealth, but that is simply a truism. I mean, to what extent this makes the Su-57 different from US planes? Russian designers have said the Su-57's effective RCS will be on par with that of F-22 in the order of 0.1 - 0.5 m²

    Everybody can! so now we have operational:

    USA: 180 F-22 and 300 F-35 built
    Russia: 0
    China: ? 20 ?


    BTW  how many Russian operational fighters have ROAFR radar? 0, AESA? 0.
    Do not know what this has to do with what I said, to be honest. Do you think counter-stealth techniques in US AD are above that of Russia? Do you expect Russia operating in CONUS or rather the US at the Russian borders? It has some implications when considering the assets and basing available to each side in a potential conflict.

    It was repeated at nausea, could you perhaps record this time? thanks

    Su-57 - ₽3,2 bn,
    flyaway cost, with "engine of first stage", no superduper ROAFAR
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/08/09/deadweapons/
    Would be good to have the source they use in the article, since the piece in itself is crap of the worst kind (Trevitchik cited as an expert qualified to judge Russian weapons in a Russian publication, for God's sake). Nothing to record but rather to forget asap, unless an official source for the price appears.

    In any case the planes they mention (12) have not been ordered firmly yet, how do they know the price already?? Only firm contract I know is for two planes and no prices were disclosed, maybe I missed that? They would be the pre-serial aircraft BTW so prices can not be directly compared to serial production of Su-35 for instance.

    I mean, it could be that value, or even more, but credible sources are needed before passing opinions for facts for the rest of the forum users to believe them.

    Su-35  ₽1,73 bln unit
    there were two batches - first 48 units / ₽66bln + second 48 units / - ₽100bln -> - ₽1,73 bln unit

    https://lenta.ru/news/2015/08/11/su35buy/
    https://ria.ru/20140812/1019696643.html
    For Su-35 price of the contracts at least was disclosed, even when we don't know what those prices entail in terms of weapons, servicing, spares etc. This would be relevant to understand why the first batch is one third cheaper than the second one, contrary to normal production learning curve. Is this due to inflation? How do you calculate the plane's unit price, with an average? In case inflation is responsible for the price variation then that assumption would not be correct (1.375 billion for the first contract, 2.08 for the second)

    What about MiG-35?
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:51 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Su-57 - ₽3,2 bn,
    flyaway cost, with "engine of first stage", no superduper ROAFAR
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/08/09/deadweapons/



    Dude, the same article that you posted says the Su-57 isn't a 5th gen fighter and lacks stealth:



    the Russian aircraft, due to the actual ignoring of stealth technology, can be considered a fifth-generation fighter only with great exaggeration.


    The article is hilarious to say the least. The article reads like the writer was chaffing and squirming in his soiled adult diaper, drawing inspiration (and perspiration) from Chicken Little's "The Sky is falling" thesis, while in a state of hypochondria. lol1
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:06 am

    lenta.ru is a liberal rag tag nonsense.

    It was already proven that Su-57 uses RAM coatings.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:24 am

    If you look at a map of iraqi war you would see that 90% of US planes were in range of Scud D missiles. The only one being out of range were AWACS and Tankers.

    That would be the same against russia and they should park them even closer as russian bases are deaper than iraqi ones to attack.

    What russia needs is a stock of 500 new more precise scud with a range of 1500km, 1000 kalibr and  another 1000 kh-59mk2 ready to launch against airports. Scud with submunition will destroy everything parked outside will kalibr and kh-59 destroys shelters with fighters inside.

    That's cheaper than having to buy hundreds of su-57 to counter nato aviation.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:33 am

    That's the aim these days, hence why people are afraid of US breaking INF treaty since it will give Russia an advantage.

    Iskander-M is more than capable of destroying an airfield as is.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:43 am

    miketheterrible wrote:That's the aim these days, hence why people are afraid of US breaking INF treaty since it will give Russia an advantage.

    Iskander-M is more than capable of destroying an airfield as is.

    On forum it is funny to compare tank vs tank, fighter vs fighter, sam vs sam .... but in real life it's just about destroying the most quickly everything the other have.
    And nato put all its eggs in aviation, destroy that and they are done. The easiest way is when they are on ground with missiles.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:55 am

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That's the aim these days, hence why people are afraid of US breaking INF treaty since it will give Russia an advantage.

    Iskander-M is more than capable of destroying an airfield as is.

    On forum it is funny to compare tank vs tank, fighter vs fighter, sam vs sam .... but in real life it's just about destroying the most quickly everything the other have.
    And nato put all its eggs in aviation, destroy that and they are done. The easiest way is when they are on ground with missiles.

    I cannot remember were I have read this, but essentially (many years ago) the main objective in the first couple days of war would be major infrastructure would be hit (Russia hitting major NATO infrastructure). Of that infrastructure, it was stated railway lines, logistics centers (ammo depots, etc) and especially airfields (civil and military). Iskanders located in Crimea and Kaliningrad gives Russia the ability to strike at any major airfield within European theater that poses the biggest threat to Russia. Kalibrs would be used to hit at further targets where they base B-52's, B-2's, etc.

    The RuAF minus the strategic forces, would be simply defending Russian airspace along with the air defense systems. Su-57's due to being LO/VLO would be ideal for sneak attacks against enemy planes nearby but the heavyweights will be the Su-27 and its variants in defending the airspace. Strategic Forces of the airforce would be assisting the missile forces and the navy's missile systems in long range attacks. This has been what I have guessed Russia's main tactic since end of Soviet Union, just being modernized with newer systems.

    Which then leads me to the question - who controls the strategic forces exactly? I mean, does it make sense that the airforce strategic forces (Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160) would operate under their own rather than having Strategic missile forces commanding it? I am no military man exactly besides knowledge gained from family who are. But that would make most sense to me.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:43 pm

    The most funny is that they just saw how effective precision guided munitions are for strategic role during US wars. Before that they thought bombers and carpet bombing + thousands of tanks was what they needed to win.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:09 pm

    Not really.

    They been producing guided munitions like air launched cruise missiles since forever, but they were not in heavy use cause there wasn't a need for it in Afghanistan for example. Now days, it's about the same. Difference is they decided to use their guided munitions in combat roll to see effectiveness.

    Now days, it's glide bombs and or dumb bombs being dropped by airplanes using advanced subsystems that more or less give precise info to drop the dumb bombs - making it almost guided (Gefast & T system).

    But the whole "tank on tank" warfare is over I believe. It would be limited with tanks playing a more support roll while enemy tanks will be destroyed by either air launched systems (ataka, Hermes, spike, etc) or atgm's (Kornet, Metis-M, etc).

    The need for air launched guided missiles in much heavier use was seen in Georgia 2008. Where some losses of aircraft could have been prevented by more use of guided munitions.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:47 pm

    LMFS wrote:Ok so F-22 is agile and stealth and F-35 is not agile due to design decisions related to its role as strike fighter. I would add, to the unfortunate combination of different and to some extent incompatible requirements (light fighter + heavy strike plane + STOVL)

    very likely. Especially cheap light fighter with heavy strike fighter looks like an oxymoron to me.



    words of chief R&D o PAK FA program in voyennaya priomka (was posted here or another thread -radar one? - a couple of weeks ago). That Russians deliberately traded stealth for agility.
    Fair enough, every design has compromises between aero and stealth, but that is simply a truism. I mean, to what extent this makes the Su-57 different from US planes? Russian designers have said the Su-57's effective RCS will be on par with that of F-22 in the order of 0.1 - 0.5 m² [/quote]

    it might be not as good if I remember correctly, but still beyond reach of any 4++++ plane.


    LMFS wrote:Do not know what this has to do with what I said, to be honest. Do you think counter-stealth techniques in US AD are above that of Russia? Do you expect Russia operating in CONUS or rather the US at the Russian borders? It has some implications when considering the assets and basing available to each side in a potential conflict.

    I dont understand you then, first you ask why do invest in stealth fighters if "everybody can build them". After reviving answer that no, not everybody and not in numbers you ask me what it has to do with that? could you make your point clear, please?


    .BTW stealth aircraft if so easily to be detected when why (including Russia) is investing in them? why Bondaryev said that all 4++++ fighters are already obsolete comparing to Vgen fighters?



    [quote="LMFS"]
    It was repeated at nausea, could you perhaps record this time? thanks

    In any case the planes they mention (12) have not been ordered firmly yet, how do they know the price already?? Only firm contract I know is for two planes and no prices were disclosed, maybe I missed that? They would be the pre-serial aircraft BTW so prices can not be directly compared to serial production of Su-35 for instance.

    I mean, it could be that value, or even more, but credible sources are needed before passing opinions for facts for the rest of the forum users to believe them.

    if you have "more credible" sources be my guest, otherwise other members of this forum can expect more constructive critics from you. TV Zvezda, Rambler or RT are established Russian outlets. AFAIK Su-57 contracts were not singed yet. But if MoD/ PM says they will you may not believe, you have right of course.


    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201802080708-4ubb.htm
    https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/531340-su-57-minoborony-kontrakt




    LMFS wrote:For Su-35 price of the contracts at least was disclosed, even when we don't know what those prices entail in terms of weapons, servicing, spares etc. This would be relevant to understand why the first batch is one third cheaper than the second one, contrary to normal production learning curve. Is this due to inflation? How do you calculate the plane's unit price, with an average? In case inflation is responsible for the price variation then that assumption would not be correct (1.375 billion for the first contract, 2.08 for the second)

    there was nothing mentioned of anything else but fighters. If you want to know more please search, I look forward to seeing them from you. I would ask then does it contain fly away price only of including costs of programme? how calculate it for Su-35 as main amount was invested in USSR? how to calculate inflation?

    but if exact price is relevant from military point of view then please search and provide members of this forum with relevant info. For me, personally, ~2x price is enough to know.
    You can compare F-22 with Eagle for example. of F-35 with F-16. Ratio should be similar to me.




    LMFS wrote: What about MiG-35?
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3316363.html

    no info that I know of, estimates were based on proposal of contract form MiG couple of years ago. Prce was ~Rub 1 bn.


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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:52 pm

    I was talking about their wish of using precision munitions like iskander and kalibr without nuks to destroy high value targets far away behind enemy lines which is a strategic use rather than tactical. Those missilies basically replace bombers of cold war era and no need for nuclear warheads.

    While USSR developed SAM to counter such threat, nato didn't, thinking their air supremacy and guided precision of all sort will win. Russia just kept its SAMs, defence strategy to contain any attack and added use of long range precision guided munition which is a US tool as a strategic weapon. Nato has nothing to counter massive missile salvos.

    Long range missile in ussr were all with nuks armed and not precise at all. Only at the end and now they have their own gps they can use them effictively with conventional warheads.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:54 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:[

    The article is hilarious to say the least. The article reads like the writer was chaffing and squirming in his soiled adult diaper, drawing inspiration (and perspiration) from Chicken Little's "The Sky is falling" thesis, while in a state of hypochondria. lol1


    it was about prices, not qualities of Su-57, if you have better source be my guest. thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
    The other estimate you have here:


    https://ria.ru/20180704/1523946068.html

    Su-57 is 2.5 times cheaper than the F-35, told in the State Duma


    taking into account that F-35 is about $120m ~40% is $48m which is... ~₽3,3bn welcome welcome welcome
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:56 pm

    Isos wrote:
    That's cheaper than having to buy hundreds of su-57 to counter nato aviation.

    Kinzah, Zircon, GZUR, Kh-50 + Tu-160M2+ Tu-22M3M isnt it?
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:43 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:[

    The article is hilarious to say the least. The article reads like the writer was chaffing and squirming in his soiled adult diaper, drawing inspiration (and perspiration) from Chicken Little's "The Sky is falling" thesis, while in a state of hypochondria. lol1


    it was about prices, not qualities of Su-57, if you have better source be my guest.  thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup
    The other estimate you have here:


    https://ria.ru/20180704/1523946068.html

    Su-57 is 2.5 times cheaper than the F-35, told in the State Duma



    taking into account that F-35 is about $120m  ~40% is $48m which is... ~₽3,3bn welcome welcome welcome

    It's a horrible source buddy, but then again your recent claims of KKV interception vs Avantgarde is cited basically by a made up wiki musing, so this is par for the course for you.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:51 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    That's cheaper than having to buy hundreds of su-57 to counter nato aviation.

    Kinzah, Zircon, GZUR, Kh-50 + Tu-160M2+ Tu-22M3M isnt it?

    Yeah but those ones still need expensive carriers like tu-160. Kalibr and iskander are launched from cheap trucks and can achieve same result. Kinzhal is a nice bonus against carriers however.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:08 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:I dont understand you then, first you ask why do invest in stealth fighters if "everybody can build them". After reviving answer that no, not everybody and not in numbers you ask me what it has to do with that? could you make your point clear,  please?


    .BTW  stealth aircraft if so easily to be detected when why (including Russia) is investing in them? why Bondaryev said that all 4++++ fighters are already obsolete comparing to Vgen fighters?
    You said the plan with the F-35 was to shoot before being seen and that was the rationale for renouncing to agility. But it so happens that Russia and others have means to detect the stealth planes and to stop their supporting assets and their communications. So in a potential conflict against Russia Western stealth fighters in all probability will not be able to play turkey shot guided by AWACS while they remain passive as they so often do against Third World countries. Without the possibility of shooting to unknowing opponents with impunity, they will have to switch on their radars and be detected. Against LO designs like Su-57 and J-20 they my not enjoy an advantage of many tens of miles for BVR combat and the encounter, especially when is many vs. many, can end up in the merge more frequently than not. Moreover, supported by OTH and other assets near their borders, the best possibility is that Russian planes (including non stealthy ones) can engage in passive long range BVR with their superior range missiles and payload. So the narrative behind that decision of abandoning agility for stealth is, IMHO, not solid.

    So I was not asking about who has more stealth fighters or if it makes sense to have them, but about your claim that they could down Russian planes unnoticed and abandon the rest of qualities of a fighter.

    if you have "more credible" sources be my guest, otherwise other members of this forum can expect more constructive critics from you.

    No I have no solid information about price of the Su-57. Nobody can expect me to provide that information if it is not publicly available. But I will inquire if someone provides supposed information that is unfounded upon scrutiny.

    TV Zvezda, Rambler or RT are established Russian outlets. AFAIK Su-57 contracts were not singed yet. But if MoD/ PM  says  they will you may not believe, you have right of course.
    No, first contract was signed for two units this summer

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5480249

    there was nothing mentioned of anything else but fighters. If you want to know more please search, I look forward to seeing them from you. I would ask then does it contain fly away price only of including costs of programme? how calculate it for Su-35 as main amount was invested in USSR? how to calculate inflation?
    If I make claims you are of course entitled to question them, we are in a forum after all.

    but if exact price is  relevant from military point of view then please search and provide members of this forum with relevant info. For me, personally,  ~2x price is enough to know.
    Only that estimation is just your guess. Ok for me if you believe it, but don't ask me to accept it just because you say.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3316363.html
    no info that I know of, estimates were based on proposal of contract form MiG couple of years ago.  Prce was ~Rub 1 bn.
    Ok, this is unofficial and referred to armament program 2011-2020 so heavily affected by inflation.

    it was about prices, not qualities of Su-57, if you have better source be my guest. thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
    The other estimate you have here:


    https://ria.ru/20180704/1523946068.html

    Su-57 is 2.5 times cheaper than the F-35, told in the State Duma

    taking into account that F-35 is about $120m ~40% is $48m which is... ~₽3,3bn welcome welcome welcome
    No, price of F-35 in its most representative version is 89.2 million. 2.5 times less is 35.7 million dollar or 2.47 billion ruble at the current rates.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:21 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    It's a horrible source buddy, but then again your recent claims of KKV interception vs Avantgarde is cited basically by a made up wiki musing, so this is par for the course for you.

    so basically duma is shit? , OK if you say so. Then do you have better estimates? dont be shy! enlighten all of us thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup




    As for Avangard, well it is alwasy great talking to THE expert, who knows Russian missiles better then gen Bondaryev. ! dont how long did you work on Avangard tech but Im sure you logn enough to know it all.  Keep you course buddy thumbsup  thumbsup  thumbsup


    MOSCOW, March 21 - RIA News. In order to intercept the Sarmat ICBM, at least 500 US antimissiles are needed, said Viktor Bondarev, chairman of the Federation Council Committee on Defense and Security, told RIA Novosti

    .
    https://ria.ru/20180321/1516954239.html
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:23 am

    LMFS wrote:
    You said the plan with the F-35 was to shoot before being seen and that was the rationale for renouncing to agility. But it so happens that Russia and others have means to detect the stealth planes and to stop their supporting assets and their communications. So in a potential conflict against Russia Western stealth fighters in all probability will not be able to play turkey shot guided by AWACS while they remain passive as they so often do against Third World countries. Without the possibility of shooting to unknowing opponents with impunity, they will have to switch on their radars and be detected. Against LO designs like Su-57 and J-20 they my not enjoy an advantage of many tens of miles for BVR combat and the encounter, especially when is many vs. many, can end up in the merge more frequently than not. Moreover, supported by OTH and other assets near their borders, the best possibility is that Russian planes (including non stealthy ones) can engage in passive long range BVR with their superior range missiles and payload. So the narrative behind that decision of abandoning agility for stealth is, IMHO, not solid.

    So I was not asking about who has more stealth fighters or if it makes sense to have them, but about your claim that they could down Russian planes unnoticed and abandon the rest of qualities of a fighter.



    lets agree on context, pls correct if i misunderstood something
    1) we were talking about MiG-29k vs F-35 and not Russia vs US
    IMHO MiG has no chances now. Check its Zhuk version vs F-35 available parameters



    2) You've mentioned now case when there are many Russian fighters and AWACS vs similar number of Us stealth numbers and then you state that you dont ask about numbers.

    IMHO - I dont think that F-35 was at first place designed in 90s (program started in 92 - after wiki) as advanced air supremacy fighter. Besides Russia, there are also other continues in the world without such level of radar tech. Russians in 90 had no stealth nor even on horizon. Economy was collapsing.

    If you compare 90s Soviet tech of 80s MiGs or Su-27 they had virtually little chance with F-35. Time passed and now F-35 has Su-57 and to some degree Su-35 and Su-30sm (if helped by low band radars). Yet still AFIAK its mode of application is to suppress AAD before entering any fight. F-35 to my understanding is more like element of network and likely will be accompanied with drones, external sources of information. I've read recently that US is pondering using drones as AAM trucks. F-35 has also advanced ERW for self defense.

    VLO is to me not meant to be invisible but that you can be seen when is too late. So instead of flying over AAD you use stand off from range where no radars can detect you yet.


    I recall words of Bondaryev as ok Su-57 is better than F-35 or F-22 but west in general has by order of magnitude more stealth fighters and none all 4++ fighters are obsolete in confrontation with technologically advanced adversary. So we need to keep eye on and make enough ours.

    So numbers do count for me.

    Does stealth count? IMHO yes it does, is it a silver bullet - no it is not. Like camo uniforms. You still can be seen in forest in camo uniform right? therwise why China and Russia are developing stealth tech?




    3) stealth must switch radars
    F-35 has AFAIK advanced IRST system so still passively can see in long ranges. can use radar data from drones/fighters.

    as for optical systems
    http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

    if both are fighters flying on 5000m then visual horizon is ~250km



    3) Russian fighters have bigger payload and range

    controversial to me. Su-30SM has 3,000km range on internal fuel? miG-29SM 1800 (on MiG avia afik) - F-35 has to available data 2,200km where with new "upgrade"of engine mgmt shall increase the range.


    Su-30 has 2 engines and ~9,600kg of fuel (wiki)
    F-35 1 engine and 8,900kg of fuel

    I'm not sure if ranges are that different

    Pzyload? Su-30sm ~8tons same as F-35





    LMFS wrote:
    if you have "more credible" sources be my guest, otherwise other members of this forum can expect more constructive critics from you.
    No I have no solid information about price of the Su-57. Nobody can expect me to provide that information if it is not publicly available. But I will inquire if someone provides supposed information that is unfounded upon scrutiny.

    a scrutiny like checking MiG take off on F-18 in videogame simulator? we exchange out best knowledge and sources if we have better lt's share. Or we can not tlak abputy topics at all.



    LMFS wrote:No, first contract was signed for two units this summerhttps://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5480249

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201808231750-f2hv.htm

    and 13 more shall join them. But still 300 + already built F-35 and no serial Su-57 yet.



    LMFS wrote:
    there was nothing mentioned of anything else but fighters. If you want to know more please search, I look forward to seeing them from you. I would ask then does it contain fly away price only of including costs of programme? how calculate it for Su-35 as main amount was invested in USSR? how to calculate inflation?
    If I make claims you are of course entitled to question them, we are in a forum after all.

    fair approach, we might disagree on anything as long as we are attacking messages not messengers



    but if exact price is  relevant from military point of view then please search and provide members of this forum with relevant info. For me, personally,  ~2x price is enough to know.
    Only that estimation is just your guess. Ok for me if you believe it, but don't ask me to accept it just because you say. OK
    [/quote]

    You dotn have to believe me of course, but do you have any feasible explanation why only 2 Su-57 were ordered and 15 is planned?
    they are so cheap?






    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3316363.html
    no info that I know of, estimates were based on proposal of contract form MiG couple of years ago.  Prce was ~Rub 1 bn.
    Ok, this is unofficial and referred to armament program 2011-2020 so heavily affected by inflation.


    All is guessing here, and rough estimates, check point below. Besides with each contract/feature/update price grows, will be AESA? will be laser weapons?batch will be long or short? will it be deck version for Indians?




    LMFS wrote: taking into account that F-35 is about $120m ~40% is $48m which is... ~₽3,3bn welcome welcome welcome
    No, price of F-35 in its most representative version is 89.2 million. 2.5 times less is 35.7 million dollar or 2.47 billion ruble at the current rates. [/quote]

    90 is F-35A 115 B and 107 C if no in CNBC was form end of September. Duma dude was talking in beginning of July. Previously was $94.3 million, the Marine Corps jet at $122.4 million, and the Navy $121.2 million. To which version was referring duma dude? and which period do you know? I dont. Is 2,5 exact number? I dotn know either. What as exchange rate then? and what ill be next year?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/28/f-35-fighter-jets-americas-most-expensive-weapons-system-just-got-a-little-cheaper.html
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:31 am

    Isos wrote:

    Yeah but those ones still need expensive carriers like tu-160. Kalibr and iskander are launched from cheap trucks and can achieve same result. Kinzhal is a nice bonus against carriers however.

    Carriers are still less expensive than building CSGs and Iskander doesnt have range of GZUR + Tu. Putin and military said about ~4000 deial zone with precision weapons.

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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