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    Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:39 am

    Is it possible with full/partial load of missiles to land safely using Cobra? I'm sure they would have tried it with Su-33s & MiG-29s by now if it was so!
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    dino00

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  dino00 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:30 am

    hoom wrote:On the question of Su-57 landing on a CV without special gear:

    Pull a cobra & just drop on the deck at the end.

    They've been having some fun with the idea over at Balancer Laughing

    respekt Mad

    That i Will want to see.

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:40 am

    Is it possible with full/partial load of missiles to land safely using Cobra?
    Almost certainly not.
    Its the sort of thing some ppl can pull off at will in a flightsim but nobody would be crazy enough to actually try.

    But its pretty much the only possible way to stop in that kind of length 'without special equipment' ie arrestors/conversion to VSTOL.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:46 am

    No cobra manoeuvres but maybe increased AoA during landing for minimal speed. It wouldn't make sense to attempt landing on a carrier without arrestors IMHO, but a very low min speed would be good in every sense.

    @Gibraltar:
    I also think STVOL should be developed with a specific airframe. Either with engine at the CG or with split rear and forward lift units, there are important drawbacks for a derived CTOL. That or they come up with something completely new and revolutionary.

    For the Su-57 to hover, you would need, considering the main engine nozzles can be made to deflect >90 degrees downwards like in F135, around 19 tons lift between front landing gear and weapons bays. So, either two lifting fans like the ones in the F-35 or five RD-41 engines like in Yak-141. You would loose dorsal fuel tank (main one in plane), front weapons bay and would be left wondering where to place the front landing gear, apart from having a huge weight increase. But it is even worse, since none of those lift units fits in the space available at the Su-57... it would be easier to lift if with a couple Mi-26 Very Happy
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    Gibraltar

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Gibraltar on Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm

    Crazy but not so crazy idea for su-57 on K

    Cheap rocket boosters with both sides nozzles for shortening take off and landing to lock in 1 missile pilon per side.

    Less crazy idea, enlarge kuznetsov

    Even less crazy idea, build a decent nuclear takr

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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:31 pm

    Gibraltar wrote:Crazy but not so crazy idea for su-57 on K

    Cheap rocket boosters with both sides nozzles for shortening take off and landing to lock in 1 missile pilon per side.

    Less crazy idea, enlarge kuznetsov

    Even less crazy idea, build a decent nuclear takr

    Su-57 would take off currently without problems from K, it has better T/W ratio than both MiG-29K and Su-33. With second stage engine (not realistic to think in naval version before the new engine is ready), it would take off full weight without even losing altitude IIRC.

    Landing should be no also problem, according to UAC the naval version is feasible. That would probably mean arrestor hook. If the inherent short lading capabilities are so good as stated, then the arrestors and airframe will not be very stressed in a landing.

    At 305 m, K is big enough for operating Su-33 which is bigger and less optimized than Su-57. The carrier shouldn't be a problem I think.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:42 pm

    Cheap rocket boosters with both sides nozzles for shortening take off and landing to lock in 1 missile pilon per side.
    they'll damage the deck & must be stored in large #s aboard, there's enough ordinance already! All future TAKR/CVNs will be longer.

    Beijing blasts Japan’s plan to make destroyers into carriers
    A full-fledged heavy aircraft carrier for vehicles with a catapult start and landing on an aerofinisher would require too much work and funding. A smaller ship, with shorter takeoff and vertical landing machines, with the support of long-range radar detection aircraft operating from Okinawa and the main Japanese islands, can be built much faster, and most importantly, multiplied in greater numbers.
    https://iz.ru/818769/ilia-kramnik/vozvrashchenie-zhuravlei-poluchit-li-iaponskii-flot-polnotcennye-avianostcy

    RFAF did order MiG-35s, so the VMF may get them too:
    RSK MiG completes manufacture of first MiG-35 fighters
    Russia's advanced MiG-35 fighter jet may get active phased array radar


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:24 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)

    hoom

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:47 am

    Crazy but not so crazy idea for su-57 on K
    Least crazy idea: put arrestor hook on it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:47 am

    Exactly...

    but then you could also build a carrier with huge nets over it that aircraft fly into and stop completely and then they could have large cranes on the deck that reach up and pluck the aircraft out of the nets and place them on the deck... but I think that would require more development and cost than arrester hooks too.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:44 am

    When designing the F-35, they made a mistake. Experts told which 1
    Any shortcomings of the F-35B won't be attributable to it being STOVL.
    THE RUSSIANS WON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:37 am

    Just good morning news lads, the question of course is - what will be chosen by MoD next year. So far just an interesting project.  Universal carrier sounds nice. But expeditionary means colonial wars?  lol1  lol1  lol1


    In Russia, developed a draft expeditionary ship for the Navy

    MOSCOW, December 3 - RIA News. Designers of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) made a universal project of an expeditionary vessel for the Russian Navy to implement several tasks at once, USC head Alexei Rakhmanov told reporters on Monday.

    Earlier, he said that in Russia it is planned to build an expedition ship that will combine the functions of an aircraft carrier, helicopter carrier and landing ship.
    "In one of our design bureaus, we made a universal vessel design that can serve four purposes, that is, an identical ship at the bow and below the waterline with specialized superstructures that are provided for various tasks," said Rakhmanov.


    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20181203/1539124311.html





    VSTOL in numbers continued:


    COST
    Su-57 programme  cost (after wiki/RIA) : ₽60bn (in 2010 it was ~$3bn, currently $1bn  lol1  lol1 lol1 but of course this is not realistic now). Why VSTOL should be much more expensive? engines are there, avionics, radars, coatings, materials too,  OAK factories are up and running.Weapons ready.



    VSTOL a desired feat or handicap?
    Let's look at numbers. Of course numbers can change as geopolitical situation changes but look at current snapshot. We already know that Japan plans to buy extra 100 (how many F-35B well see), Japanese were planning long time to have CVs back.. this time with F-35Bs. Japan buys Korea is next, then IMHO Australia.  After wiki below:

    Orders...........................USMC..........USN..............Royal..Navy...Italy...Turkey
    F-35C..................80...............260...............0..................0.......0

    F-35B..................340.................................138..............30......32


    So far we have:  540 F-35B vs 340 F-35C.  Thus all navies outside US having F-35 ordered- VSTOL. There are 60% more VSTOL F-35B planned than CATOBAR F-35C..
    Now you can answer yourself is for navy VSTOL a handicap or perhaps desired feature?




    Navies with CATOBAR: US, French, (future partially Chinese)
    STOBAR: India, Russia ( is working to replace current fighters with VSTOL), Chinese

    VSTOL/skijump)  - UK, Italy, Spain, Turkish, soon Russian, Chinese (partially )  and Japanese


    Let's see if  whether India will decide to buy Russian VSTOL fighter.  russia  russia  russia


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:40 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:46 am

    Gibraltar wrote:To me stovl and vtol makes sense in a specific design frame.
    F-35 lesson as someone before me rightly said is that vertical take off and landing can't be a added "feauture" for a version of an aircraft because affects too much in aerodynamics, engine and components layout. It ends in out of control developing times and costs with questionable performances. I think Russia will have ahave a smarter approach in vtol development making it a stand alone specific project and building keeping as fixed project inputs only weapon systems that would be shared with the air force stock.

    I think that avionics, weapons, engines, materials is  mandatory to use in new fighter (if should be same generation) to unify logistics as much  as possible.


    Gibraltar wrote:
    On the other side I think is very, very and again very bad idea to derive a vtol from Su-57 and seriously, a can't see any good reason to do it. And go for a specific design.

    VSTOL perhaps yes, xSTOL (30-60m STOL) perhaps possible, not sure if feasible though





    GarryB wrote:but then you could also build a carrier with huge nets over it that aircraft fly into and stop completely and then they could have large cranes on the deck that reach up and pluck the aircraft out of the nets and place them on the deck... but I think that would require more development and cost than arrester hooks too.

    VSTOL rolling landing is best option tho no special infrastructure is required thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup




    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Any shortcomings of the F-35B won't be attributable to it being STOVL.
    THE RUSSIANS WON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE.


    well learnign on ther's mistakes is priceless they say. But in this case costs around $1,000bln Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:00 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Gunshipdemocracy wrote:IMHO very unlikely, why Russian would share its perhaps most modern fighter with china?
    Because it does not need to be their best fighter. Air wing of LHDs is there for support in lower risk environments, otherwise you call the carrier with their AWACS and high performance jets. Anyway Russians were (are) ok with sharing lots of tech with India for the FGFA, money rules


    hmm true with India. India is not yet a real hi tech aersopace competitor of Russia. Unification with Su-57 makes more sense tho.
    BTW you still believe in VSTOL cannot cope ith fighters on level of Su-57? only payload and range woul dbe smaller no other characteristics.  




    Why VSTOL is so bad? topto tops MiG-29k (if can fly) vs 30 years old Yak design 9current will be light years better)
    290 kg for the RD-41 would mean >14:1 T/W ratio. 1/3 better than izd. 117, either I miss something important in performance of that precise type of engine (may be the case) or those data are BS [/quote]

    can you provide better source? no ? then you just deny facts you dont like  lol1  lol1  lol1


    LMFS wrote:Su-57 would take off currently without problems from K,

    without problems is simply technical tosh. This guy on voeynaya priomkasaid precisely: he thinks that with "defined weight" Su-57 should start. So no no full payload and fully fuel. Perhaps even not even close to so called normal starting weight.

    perhaps you have better sources?





    LMFS wrote: Lets assume the Yak-141 was the wonder you are so keenly trying to convince us it was, much better than MiG-29 which MoD so stupidly chose instead. Now, take the engines for vertical lift and all additional HW out. Put fuel tanks instead. Wouldn't the plane be lighter and longer ranged????? Just to check if we live in the same universe or you live in one of your own

    and you're again wrong  MiG-29k was killed too. Su-33K very deep redesign of Su-27 was chosen.  Yes heavy redesign and alost 2x as expensive. Yes, ff you make Yak without V engines would be lighter but why to do that ?! VSTOL has priceless  value to all navies so far. Especially that vSTOL fighters can cope with CATOBAR without problems.


    Talking about universe ;-) Your universe has sporadic touch with real world. Itis enough to look at what is happening in Russian Chinese and all other navies except US one. All are goint VSTOL.



    LMFS wrote:
    The example above illustrates the fundamental handicap STOVL with extra devices for vertical lift generation have. If you understand it, fine. If not, fine too.

    MiG-29k has characteristics at most at level of VSTOL yet needs 200m and skijump to start with full payload. Yak-141 was tested to do this 2-30 ns 60m . If you understand this is for navy priceless cool, if you dont Im fine with that too.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:34 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:hmm true with India. India is not yet a real hi tech aersopace competitor of Russia. Unification with Su-57 makes more sense tho.
    Unification with Su-57 in terms of STOVL is a pipe dream IMHO. If it is in terms of XSTOL as you call it, well the Su-57 is already very good at that apparently. The biggest advantage of STOVL is clearly at landing, if the Su-57 version you propose could do that better than now by generating vertical lift, then it would be essentially a STOVL aircraft.
    BTW you still believe in VSTOL cannot cope ith fighters on level of Su-57? only payload and range woul dbe smaller no other characteristics.  
    See reasons above for Su-57. There are no heavy fighters in STOVL version that I know. And those are considered high-end assets specifically because of the range, payload, persistence and avionics they can carry.

    can you provide better source? no ? then you just deny facts you dont like  lol1  lol1  lol1
    Do you know the say "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"? Besides I am admitting I may lack the knowledge to assess the T/W of that specific engine. So I am not denying, just pointing that these data are remarkable, and since they are not official I have to take them with caution. But main issue with your numbers is you forgot the weight of the rest of the installation

    without problems is simply technical tosh.
    Says who?
    Main issue for T/O performance on a springboard is T/W ratio and aero design, which is not too apart for fighters due to requirements of supersonic flight among others. For the Su-57 the T/W will clearly surpass any of the current Russian naval fighters, and its T/O qualities have already been pointed out as outstanding, with naval role being confirmed as feasible by top technical guys of UAC and Sukhoi already twice. What is the factor that could compromise the T/O performance in your opinion?

    This guy on voeynaya priomkasaid precisely: he thinks that with "defined weight" Su-57 should start. So no no full payload and fully fuel. Perhaps even not even close to so called normal starting weight.
    perhaps  you have better sources?
    Don't know. To me that is a typical way technical guys give a fast answer to such vague questions. He simply made sure he was not signing a blank cheque before making statements about the capacity of the jet, not confirming the serious TO restrictions you want to see. And besides we don't know if he was referring to current engines or newer ones, for which probably technical characteristics have not been confirmed 100% yet.

    Think twice: if the current naval fighters can take-off so close to full weight from the short runs / 100% full load from the long ones and the Su-57 has so much better engines and aero, what are the reasons for such big concern?

    Did you even bother using the simulation tool we provided? Would be good to make yourself an informed opinion about this matter, i.e., check the relevance of T/W ratio for the length of the T/O run.
    and you're again wrong  MiG-29k was killed too. Su-33K very deep redesign of Su-27 was chosen.
    I was referring to now. Two squadrons MiG-29K in service, zero Yaks. But that was not the point regardless.

    Yes, ff you make Yak without V engines would be lighter
    That is at least a starting point.

    but why to do that ?!
    Was just an exercise about a theoretical CTOL Yak being intrinsically superior to STOVL one, for obvious reasons.

    VSTOL has priceless  value to all navies so far. Especially that vSTOL fighters can cope with CATOBAR without problems.
    Says you. There are currently serious discussions in UK to buy the A version of the F-35 because they think they cannot cope with first order threats with the STOVL version only.

    Talking about universe ;-) Your universe has sporadic touch with real world. Itis enough to look at what is happening in Russian Chinese and all other navies except US one. All are goint VSTOL.
    And abandoning STOBAR / CATOBAR right? I think we will still see you changing your statements quite a bit before this is over.

    MiG-29k has characteristics at most at level of VSTOL yet needs 200m and skijump to start with full payload.
    You keep repeating the same about MiG-29 as if there was no other naval fighter in the world, while we are only interested in absence of the Su-57 and mainly because it is already paid for and in service in the RuN.

    Yak-141 was tested to do this 2-30 ns 60m . If you understand this is for navy priceless cool, if you dont Im fine with that too.
    You mean you will stop trying to evangelize us infidels? That would be great
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:01 pm

    And abandoning STOBAR / CATOBAR right?
    Keeping those doesn't negate the utility of STOVL. The same with fixed wing planes vs. helicopters vs. tilt-rotors! Every 1 of them have their specific niche.
    ..the Su-57 and mainly because it is already paid for and in service in the RuN.
    It's in the VKS, not RuN! Feasibility is not guaranteed just because they said so. Time will tell!
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:28 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Keeping those doesn't negate the utility of STOVL. The same with fixed wing planes vs. helicopters vs. tilt-rotors! Every 1 of them have their specific niche.
    Have never negated the utility of STOVL, on the contrary. Please allow me to summarize:
    > STOVL make sense for assault ships but STOBAR or CATOBAR fighters have an intrinsic advantage for the higher-end capabilities required from full blown carriers
    > Would like Russia developing STOVLs for their LHDs (in fact I am eager to see what they come up with) but simply don't see the economic case of developing a new plane for the amount and type of vessels Russia is supposed to be deploying (they wanted 4 Mistral for instance IIRC). They have said (confirmed today and hinted some time ago) that they will not do a pure helicopter carrier, so that may point out to the plan of equipping them with STOVL planes. That I don't see the economic case does not mean that I cannot be dead wrong and Russia sees the sense of the development, of course. Maybe they count on 4-6 sqd. for their assault ships + export + maybe 2 sqd. complement for their carriers and that is ok for them? Or maybe even better, they plan a shared development with China as you proposed. Together with recycling PAK-FA technology could yield a reasonable plane at reasonable prices that could be also competitive abroad. Few navies have STOBAR / CATOBAR, but every other nation wants to have some planes flying out of their LHDs, even if it brings nothing but prestige and a questionable "power projection" capability (preferably under the umbrella of some US CSG of course)
    > What I would find very strange would be to abandon the great opportunity of developing the Su-57K. Carriers and LHD do not exclude each other, rather the contrary, the LHD benefits from the protection of the carrier to perform in its assault role. US, China and Russia all seem to follow a similar navy development model (excluding obvious scale differences), having both kinds of ships with their corresponding fighters and technologies. Haven't seen anything from them that points in a radically different direction to be honest...
    > So I see them deploying STOVLs if other technologies do not step in and squeeze their role (like maybe the latest Kamov concept) and if the money is there. But I don't see the substitution of carriers and STOBAR planes long term by LHDs and STOVL. And I also don't see the hurry in substituting the Su-33 and MiG-29Ks, the later having been delivered in 2015-16.

    It's in the VKS, not RuN! Feasibility is not guaranteed just because they said so. Time will tell!
    Of course, nothing is done until its done and we'll have to wait many years now to see the outcome.

    Regarding the MiG-29K, RuN indeed received 20 of them + 4 KUB dual seaters forming an air regiment of the Northern Fleet:
    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12007494@egNews
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/august-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/3042-russian-navy-to-form-second-aircraft-carrier-aviation-regiment-with-mig-29kkub.html
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:49 am

    LMFS wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:hmm true with India. India is not yet a real hi tech aersopace competitor of Russia. Unification with Su-57 makes more sense tho.
    Unification with Su-57 in terms of STOVL is a pipe dream IMHO. If it is in terms of XSTOL as you call it, well the Su-57 is already very good at that apparently. The biggest advantage of STOVL is clearly at landing, if the Su-57 version you propose could do that better than now by generating vertical lift, then it would be essentially a STOVL aircraft.

    indeed Su-57 is a very potent platform. Built to Russian war doctrine foreseeing importance of  maneuverability and STOL.  Built from scratch.  Thus I got gut feeling that new VSTOL will be to some degree unified with Su-57. At worst till level of engines, weapons, avionics. VSTOL has not only vertical start. Its rolling landing is great asset on sea.

    BTW xSTOL is not  really my invention. Russians call byt xSTL machines that can start without vertical lift yet with very short takeoff strip.  Technically  it still would be STOL. Generation  ofextra lift could be with Coanda effect too. But I dotn think it ill go this way.  Well need to live and wait.




    LMFS wrote:
    BTW you still believe in VSTOL cannot cope ith fighters on level of Su-57? only payload and range woul dbe smaller no other characteristics.  
    See reasons above for Su-57. There are no heavy fighters in STOVL version that I know. And those are considered high-end assets specifically because of the range, payload, persistence and avionics they can carry.

    To counter long range strike aircraft  and defend your assets you need same long range and payload? not really, you need  enough AAMs and good radar + situational awareness. Avionics? what do you mean by avionics? that smaller fighter cannot carry radars? even it they are placed in all around fighter? Let me disagree with this thesis.



    LMFS wrote:
    can you provide better source? no ? then you just deny facts you dont like  lol1  lol1  lol1
    Besides I am admitting I may lack the knowledge to assess the T/W of that specific engine. So I am not denying, just pointing that these data are remarkable, and since they are not official I have to take them with caution. But main issue with your numbers is you forgot the weight of the rest of the installation

    You're correct, Sir here. Nevertheless,please let me draw you attention to 2 details here:  Engines had 2x as high specific fuel consumption (comparing to regular engines) and nothing about MTBF.





    LMFS wrote:Main issue for T/O performance on a springboard is T/W ratio and aero design, which is not too apart for fighters due to requirements of supersonic flight among others. For the Su-57 the T/W will clearly surpass any of the current Russian naval fighters, and its T/O qualities have already been pointed out as outstanding, with naval role being confirmed as feasible by top technical guys of UAC and Sukhoi already twice. What is the factor that could compromise the T/O performance in your opinion?

    If aero design you call wing load then yes. It is also important since it affects landing speed. Su-57 has very low, below 400kg/m2.
    Su-57 STOL (competition to class) characteristics are  great but takeoff in 300 meters with 50% of fuel with virtually no payload doenst make it  deck-ready fighter yet, Im afraid.
    If you want to use  skijump-BAR this could work if Su-57 would be  navalized as some point of time. We'll live to see this.

    So far navalization didnt improve any of Russian fighters performance though. Perhaps that is one of  reasons behind of building specialized deck fighter first? then eventually make its land version?




    LMFS wrote: He simply made sure he was not signing a blank cheque before making statements about the capacity of the jet, not confirming the serious TO restrictions you want to see. And besides we don't know if he was referring to current engines or newer ones, for which probably technical characteristics have not been confirmed 100% yet.

    of he knew but didnt want to go to jail for reveling secrets? like recently one of KNAAPO employees after talking too much on military forums...



    LMFS wrote:
    and you're again wrong  MiG-29k was killed too. Su-33K very deep redesign of Su-27 was chosen.
    I was referring to now. Two squadrons MiG-29K in service, zero Yaks. But that was not the point regardless.

    his is only part of story, let me tell yo remaining one: MiG-29k is in service only because of Indian tender. Russia started to acquire MiGs almost 20 years after its death.
    Indians thought this could be a good deal since they had already lots of Soviet built MiG-29s. They didnt know what kidn of low quality makeover they are getting into.

    Yaks weren't in Indian inventory. So no this had nothing to do with flight qualities.  But lessons learned. Now 23 MiGs will be retired and replaced by... yes you're correct Yak's VSTOL  successors.




    LMFS wrote:
    but why to do that ?!
    Was just an exercise about a theoretical CTOL Yak being intrinsically superior to STOVL one, for obvious reasons.

    Actually, trade off 5<x<15% of payload/range to get VSTOL is a great deal. If you check navies around the world.



    LMFS wrote:

    VSTOL has priceless  value to all navies so far. Especially that vSTOL fighters can cope with CATOBAR without problems.
    Says you. There are currently serious discussions in UK to buy the A version of the F-35 because they think they cannot cope with first order threats with the STOVL version only.

    You've omitted tiny detail here. This is not Royal Navy but RAF.  RAF and mulls buying F-35A not CATOBAR F-35C.   I wonder what "first order threats" do you mean? besides  £20m in price difference.   They have exactly the same avionics, just payload and range slightly differ. Then again Japan seems to interested seriously in F-35B.



    LMFS wrote:
    Talking about universe ;-) Your universe has sporadic touch with real world. Itis enough to look at what is happening in Russian Chinese and all other navies except US one. All are goint VSTOL.
    And abandoning STOBAR / CATOBAR right? I think we will still see you changing your statements quite a bit before this is over.


    Not what I have said.  China and US actually will use both CATOBAR and VSTOL. But their budgets are  (ro soon will be fo r China) by order of magnitude higher then Russia one. India we'll live to see. If their economy grows as rapidly as is doing now they can afford anything they want.


    All remaining countries in the world need to find affordable solutions. BTW  Ski-jump will be used for VSTOL fighters because actually was invented for jump-jets.






    LMFS wrote:
    You mean you will stop trying to evangelize us infidels? That would be great

    Infidels will see true power of VSTOL and numbers, I dont need to convince them myself lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:52 am

    Former Commander-in-Chief of the Air and Space Forces of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Federation Council Committee on Defense and Security, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev an interview about Su-57.


    There are other arguments, in some respects opposite. Like, why do we need the fifth generation, if the fighters of the 4 ++ generation are flying fine, for example, the same Su-35. On this occasion, I will say: fourth-generation fighters, even those upgraded to the “++” version, are already outdated and do not meet new challenges. Of course, they are suitable for local combat conflicts with a weak opponent. However, in the conditions of the enemy’s airborne combat environment and air defense, under the influence of fifth-generation fighters in the armed forces of some countries, it is impossible to carry out the combat missions of our army without Su-57.
    https://rg.ru/2018/10/16/istrebitel-su-57-na-ispytaniiah-prevzoshel-luchshie-amerikanskie-analogi.html

    talking about future of MiG-35 and MiG-29k vs Vgen VSTOL.








    LMFS wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Keeping those doesn't negate the utility of STOVL. The same with fixed wing planes vs. helicopters vs. tilt-rotors! Every 1 of them have their specific niche.
    Have never negated the utility of STOVL, on the contrary. Please allow me to summarize:
    > STOVL make sense for assault ships but STOBAR or CATOBAR fighters have an intrinsic advantage for the higher-end capabilities required from full blown carriers

    to defend own ships? hmmm Between F-35C and F-35B there is difference 300km in radius and 1,200kg in payload. What makes them disadvantageous on AA mission to defend own fleet?



    LMFS wrote:> Would like Russia developing STOVLs for their LHDs (in fact I am eager to see what they come up with) but simply don't see the economic case of developing a new plane for the amount and type of vessels Russia is supposed to be deploying (they wanted 4 Mistral for instance IIRC). They have said (confirmed today and hinted some time ago) that they will not do a pure helicopter carrier, so that may point out to the plan of equipping them with STOVL planes. That I don't see the economic case does not mean that I cannot be dead wrong and Russia sees the sense of the development, of course. Maybe they count on 4-6 sqd. for their assault ships + export + maybe 2 sqd. complement for their carriers and that is ok for them? Or maybe even better, they plan a shared development with China as you proposed.

    Why Russians should restrict to naval usage only? of course if India could buy Russian VSTOL could be great thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

    I can see development in 2 potential aproaches:

    1) large PAK FA based (say unified as much a possible) (V?)STOL fighter

    2) light 1 engine fighter using as many components form Su-57 as possible.




    LMFS wrote: Together with recycling PAK-FA technology could yield a reasonable plane at reasonable prices that could be also competitive abroad. Few navies have STOBAR / CATOBAR, but every other nation wants to have some planes flying out of their LHDs, even if it brings nothing but prestige and a questionable "power projection" capability (preferably under the umbrella of some US CSG of course)

    Russia cannot afford for "fully blown CVN" so its power projection wont be long range naval strikes but missiles/Poseidon torpedoes. CATOBAR has only USA and France (with 100% US tech) and soon China (6xGDP of Russia) nobody else in the world. It is interesting how do you see "questionability" of power projection in case of light carriers? Besides numerical superiority of big ones.




    LMFS wrote:]
    > What I would find very strange would be to abandon the great opportunity of developing the Su-57K. Carriers and LHD do not exclude each other, rather the contrary, the LHD benefits from the protection of the carrier to perform in its assault role. US, China and Russia all seem to follow a similar navy development model (excluding obvious scale differences), having both kinds of ships with their corresponding fighters and technologies. Haven't seen anything from them that points in a radically different direction to be honest...

    actually scale (and budget) is the key word here. Russia cannot build large CVNs and LHDs with current budget scale. Of course suddenly RuN gets shitload of cash why not?




    LMFS wrote:> So I see them deploying STOVLs if other technologies do not step in and squeeze their role (like maybe the latest Kamov concept) and if the money is there. But I don't see the substitution of carriers and STOBAR planes long term by LHDs and STOVL. And I also don't see the hurry in substituting the Su-33 and MiG-29Ks, the later having been delivered in 2015-16.

    There is no hurry in replacing MiG-29k it is still li\k e10 years horizon. If you checked this "expeditionary ship" press release - She is to be a modular ship that can also be a carrier. The thing you seem to omit is technology advancements. Tech didnt end in 80s.

    Kamov? wow you mean somebody would replace good fighter with 400+ km/h helicopter? are you serious?

    AWACS dosent need to be Yak-44 anymore. AEW drones can do same job. Long range strike? why not navalized Skats with standoff ammo?









    LMFS wrote:
    It's in the VKS, not RuN! Feasibility is not guaranteed just because they said so. Time will tell!
    Of course, nothing is done until its done and we'll have to wait many years now to see the outcome
    Regarding the MiG-29K, RuN indeed received 20 of them + 4 KUB dual seaters forming an air regiment of the Northern Fleet:

    Technically there are 23 MiG-29ks . 4 were only deployed on Kuz during Syria campaign. One lost. One was no t serviceable.

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:11 am

    Russia cannot build large CVNs and LHDs with current budget scale.
    That's why TAKR/UDK is being offered in combination.
    Designed ships will be with modular settings that transform to meet four different goals. “One of our design bureaus has prepared a draft of universal ships that can serve four different purposes,” said the President of the Russian Federation.
    https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/sozdan_proekt_universalnyh_boevyh_korabley.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    Those structures will be permanent or semi-permanent that will be interchangeable to fit different missions.  
    I doubt the'll ever build a classic CVN with only defensive armaments.
    MiG-35 update: https://rg.ru/2018/12/03/ispytaniia-istrebitelia-mig-35-dolzhny-zavershitsia-v-2019-godu.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:47 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Thus I got gut feeling that new VSTOL will be to some degree unified with Su-57. At worst till level of engines, weapons, avionics.
    PAK-FA was important not only for the Su-57 but to put the whole industry up to date. So avionics, weapons, materials of course will be reused. If the plane is very small then the engine could used too, but expectations about payload and performance in strike role would need to be modest. It could make sense for deployments abroad: a small, cheap unpretending plane for AD and light strike as support of an expeditionary force. If the conflict is low risk, send it alone. If not, with a carrier to cover its operations. This simple configuration would probably see more use and could be carried in bigger numbers in the limited space of a LHD than a bigger plane.

    As seen in Syria, intelligence can be more important than brute force. there are some good articles from Leonkov about how the new intelligence and command structures won the war for Russia in Syria by countering the upper hand Western intelligence support was giving to the jihadists. No need for 8 ton payload per plane in every sortie, but better a well placed CM in a war room full of undercover foreign officers...

    VSTOL has not only vertical start. Its rolling landing is great asset on sea.
    VSTOL I wouldn't know how to translate so not sure what you mean. Term is STOVL AFAIK.
    Rolling landing is ok of course, but takes almost the same place as a catch, even when the carrier can be simpler and the airframes will suffer less. It is a less critical step due to much lower speed too. May be wrong, but for TO STOVL is not improving anything significant compared to modern jets IMO.

    BTW xSTOL is not  really my invention. Russians call byt xSTL machines that can start without vertical lift yet with very short takeoff strip.  Technically  it still would be STOL.
    Ok thanks
    Generation  ofextra lift could be with Coanda effect too. But I dotn think it ill go this way.  Well need to live and wait.
    Supersonic wings need low relative thickness. C-17 wing with a turbofan blowing the trailing edge slotted flaps for Coanda does not apply I'm afraid

    To counter long range strike aircraft  and defend your assets you need same long range and payload? not really, you need  enough AAMs and good radar + situational awareness. Avionics? what do you mean by avionics? that smaller fighter cannot carry radars? even it they are placed in all around fighter? Let me disagree with this thesis.

    Playing defensive and allowing the enemy the initiative, to schedule their attacks for optimum effect leads to defeat. Aggressor needs to be hit at home, be left no moment of peace, that is why heavy fighters are valuable. Operating a Su-33 in the K is like riding a motorbike in the corridor of your house, and yet Russians decided it was worth it.

    Light fighter can be capable and effective and perfectly ok 80% of the time and still simply not enough against high-end threats where only your best heavy fighter would do. That is how he world works, I did not invent it...
    Engines had 2x as high specific fuel consumption (comparing to regular engines) and nothing about MTBF.
    Yeah, maybe. Single spool, maybe only good at low altitude and just a big banger for VTOL... as said could be a specialty designed for minimum footprint in a very narrow role.

    If aero design you call wing load then yes. It is also important since it affects landing speed. Su-57 has very low, below 400kg/m2.
    Not only, but it is a big factor. Lifting body of the Su-57 is huge and LEVCONS are there to use it with the best effectiveness even at high AoA. Relaxed stability counts too. Lift augmentation and TVC too. Many things need to be factored but I am not knowledgeable enough to evaluate all of them. In any case Su-57 has many tricks in the bag (was designed with low speed controllability and highest lift in mind) and technical guys confirmed it is an improvement of previous models, which is obvious nevertheless.

    Su-57 STOL (competition to class) characteristics are  great but takeoff in 300 meters with 50% of fuel with virtually no payload doenst make it  deck-ready fighter yet, Im afraid.
    If you want to use  skijump-BAR this could work if Su-57 would be  navalized as some point of time. We'll live to see this.
    Not sure what level of modifications would be needed for the Su-57 to use a springboard. Overloads requirements in modern fighters are very severe (not any more 9 g for some seconds but rather for minutes), so structure is very robust already. And many hints of 6G and unmanned use were given, so I suspect the plane itself can substantially more than 9 g, that would be the wise approach if you want a plane capable for the next 40 years.

    So far navalization didnt improve any of Russian fighters performance though. Perhaps that is one of  reasons behind of building specialized deck fighter first? then eventually make its land version?
    Putting more weight and weakening the wing with a fold is hardly going to improve a plane. I suspect (or maybe wish) the Su-57 was thought with this in mind from the beginning. Robust landing gear with the right layout already in place, as high lift, high overload capability and many control surfaces. MiG-35 apparently has a structure valid for carrier operations from the onset. Maybe new materials allow for this with little overweight, with the added benefit for CTOL versions of longer service life of the airframe. Better engines with higher T/W are also going to help both CTOL an naval variants. In general if you plan from the beginning with the different requirements in mind you can find the synergies. If not, you have to go a difficult path of suboptimal modifications. Would expect the Russians to have learned this lesson with the Su-33 and MiG-29K.
    of he knew but didnt want to go to jail for reveling secrets? like recently one of KNAAPO employees after talking too much on military forums...
    Ouch!  Rolling Eyes

    his is only part of story, let me tell yo remaining one: MiG-29k is in service only because of Indian tender.
    Of course. It was a perfectly rational decision to use the line already set up for the Indian contract, rather than restarting the Su-33 for a handful of planes.

    Russia started to acquire MiGs almost 20 years after its death.

    This is not really true, MiG-29K is a version based in the M. It is a very modern fighter, with every system in the plane having been deeply updated, multirole capable. Structure was updated too. MiG didn't had much to do in all these years to neglect their only fighter with commercial chances so they did put quite a bit of effort in it.

    Aero of 4G planes is very good, almost up to date and in some aspects even better because no compromises for stealth were needed. With modern engines, optimized structure and digital electronic filling it is quite capable and besides cheap. An AESA is being prepared for it too.

    Indians thought this could be a good deal since they had already lots of Soviet built MiG-29s. They didnt know what kidn of low quality makeover they are getting into.
    Too much lobbying and BS being spread around Indian military to be sure what is true and what is not. The stench of propaganda efforts is all over this issue and besides all these claims can be conveniently used to hide own incompetency. Russians are using the fighters and they seem to be happy with them. Let's not forget how mad US is about preventing Russian military sales

    Yaks weren't in Indian inventory. So no this had nothing to do with flight qualities.  But lessons learned. Now 23 MiGs will be retired and replaced by... yes you're correct Yak's VSTOL  successors.
    Will be retired yes, but when? They were delivered between 2010 and 2016 if I am not wrong. But in any case STOVL are for the LHDs where the MiGs cannot operate

    Actually, trade off 5
    How do you get to those numbers? How much fuel lost due to internal space used by vertical lift?

    You've omitted tiny detail here. This is not Royal Navy but RAF.  RAF and mulls buying F-35A not CATOBAR F-35C.  
    Yes, RAF was planed to use the Bs and they want the As instead. And they want it enough as to risk a spat with US for increasing the price of the Bs for the rest of buyers, including the USMC, which are not specially happy about the big extra cost of the STOVL version.

    I wonder what "first order threats" do you mean? besides  £20m in price difference.
    I put the cost estimations for the different versions in another post. But also performance differences are mentioned:

    https://twitter.com/gregbagwell/status/1068625084510818306

    They have exactly the same avionics, just payload and range slightly differ. Then again Japan seems to interested seriously in F-35B.

    Japan wants to turn small helicopter carriers into STOVL, F-35B makes sense. RAF wants to be as capable as possible and Bs don't seem to help there.

    Not what I have said.  China and US actually will use both CATOBAR and VSTOL. But their budgets are  (ro soon will be fo r China) by order of magnitude higher then Russia one. India we'll live to see. If their economy grows as rapidly as is doing now they can afford anything they want.
    Putin is at least as much behind the naval strategy as after the STOVL decision. And they decided to create carriers, get over it.

    All remaining countries in the world need to find affordable solutions.
    Yes and that is one of the strongest arguments for hoping the STOVL could end up being something.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:17 pm

    .. for TO STOVL is not improving anything significant compared to modern jets IMO.
    Future STOVLs may be closer to CTOLs in performance, but the whole point is that it doesn't need CATOBAR equipment, space, personnel, & costs. And they can operate from improvised ships/barges, highways & short/damaged airstrips.


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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  LMFS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:35 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    .. for TO STOVL is not improving anything significant compared to modern jets IMO.
    Future STOVLs may be closer to CTOLs in performance, but the whole point is that it doesn't need CATOBAR equipment, space, personnel, & costs. And they can operate from improvised ships/barges, highways & short/damages airstrips.  
    Ok should have been more precise. Was referring to STOBAR fighters, that can already take off from very short distances and without any active support other than blast deflectors. And their TO performance is only improving as the engines get better and better.

    Regarding the capacity of STOVL to operate from "improvised" TO and landing pads, it is not that good when looked in detail. I have seen a Harrier blasting the concrete slabs of a runway live and almost having to cancel its participation in an airshow because of this, you can damage the plane, ingest debris or even hurt someone. 20 t blast effects are not harmless. And then regarding the military value of using improvised and scattered operational bases. This is ok, but how many planes can be operated like that in a conflict, especially in the sea? It is fine in an emergency to save one plane by landing on a container ship, but when you are talking about squadrons having to flee a sinking carrier you will have big problems to find enough lading spots.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:48 am

    They could taxi or be towed to the roads & use rolling STOLs.
    STOVL fighters at sea won't be too far from divert airfields &/ other ships equipped with hardened heat resistant decks. If they must ditch, it's war! Even AF pilots train in water survival.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:22 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Russia cannot build large CVNs and LHDs with current budget scale.
    That's why TAKR/UDK is being offered in combination.

    Frankly speaking, none of countries besides USA and China can afford to build a fleet of big CVNs. OK in 10-15 years India has big chance to enter this club as 3 or then second worlds economy.

    Returning to Russia: Will it be a TAKR or just a modular ship? we'll need to see. TAKR though is the most logical asymmetric option. Paying the price less payload you need not only less escort but can create "an AAD/ASW/ASh umbrella " on your own ship grouping.



    Tsavo wrote: Those structures will be permanent or semi-permanent that will be interchangeable to fit different missions.  

    well this sentence was not actually in Rakhmanov statement but seems to be logical.



    Tsavo wrote: I doubt the'll ever build a classic CVN with only defensive armaments.

    Well this would be logical, if your airwing is not your main strike force. Nuclear propulsion would to be a logical too in scarcity of bases and to put less strain on supply chain.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:54 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Ok should have been more precise. Was referring to STOBAR fighters, that can already take off from very short distances and without any active support other than blast deflectors. And their TO performance is only improving as the engines get better and better.


    STOBAR intrinsically cannot get even close to VSTOL in terms of short take off neither landing. Just one of examples at MiG-29k - 195m + skijump vs 60m without skijump for Yak-141 this is 300% longer take off. Landing - MiG cannot land without BAR part. One was lost due to failure of it. Any VSTOL can actually land vertically or with rolling landing.



    BTW STOBAR use still blast deflectors. Su-33 even burned some at the beginning of its career on TAKR Tbilisi (later renamed to ... KUZ) . Below Su-33 on Kuz.







    LMFS wrote: Regarding the capacity of STOVL to operate from "improvised" TO and landing pads, it is not that good when looked in detail. I have seen a Harrier blasting the concrete slabs of a runway live and almost having to cancel its participation in an airshow because of this, you can damage the plane, ingest debris or even hurt someone. 20 t blast effects are not harmless. And then regarding the military value of using improvised and scattered operational bases. This is ok, but how many planes can be operated like that in a conflict, especially in the sea? It is fine in an emergency to save one plane by landing on a container ship, but when you are talking about squadrons having to flee a sinking carrier you will have big problems to find enough lading spots.


    not really, I have seen many vertical landings of both Harriers and F-35 on regular runways. Nothing happened.




    Having heat resistant layer on landing points is nto a problem anymore. In case of Russian Navy it can be specific coatings of course on CV but in case its foreseen to use normal helipads (what is not the case imho) special extra hear resistant covers can be used.

    Soviets for their VSTOL tried to use trucks with heat resistant mattes following troops so you can deploy "portable airfield" anywhere. Cumbersome? perhaps but how quick can you build 1 km concrete runway close to front line?


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