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    Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:57 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:@papadragon Yeah but russia doesn't have this type of ship nor the aircraft. Unless if they manage to put a yak on a modified tarentul boat lol1

    Compared to eehenie's Shtorm-class supercarrier (that is supposedly​ under construction already at secret Santa-Clausinsk shipyards in Arctic) Russia will actually be getting LHDs and STOVL aircraft at some point in the future.
    l
    So putting those two together would be reasonable course of action.

    Lol lambie, we know that for you nothing like unarmed civil icebreakers for the defense of Russia.

    No-one said that the Project 23000 is under construction. But the first unit is very likely coming, the construction is very likely to ve done at the Zvedzda upgraded shipyard, and the works can begin under the State Armament Program 2011-2020, thanks to the Mistral funds.
    Do you have eny evidence to suggest when Russia will make a Shtorm class?

    Also why is the naval forum so intoxicated lately?

    Oh I almost forgot to mention this is the Russian military forum enemy cells should be swiftly eliminated. The inability of the staff to dispose of enemy agents is sickening.

    смерть шпионам <-- do that
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:58 pm

    eehnie wrote:........

    No-one said that the Project 23000 is under construction. But the first unit is very likely coming, the construction is very likely to ve done at the Zvezda upgraded shipyard, and the works can begin under the State Armament Program 2011-2020, thanks to the Mistral funds.

    Oh that's right, it's Anime-class Lider nuclear destroyer that is halfway through construction at Santa-Clausinsk shipyards is it?

    I heard that each unit will have an Infinity Stone installed in reactor core. This would limit their number to just 5 ships in class but Navy might opt to build another 5 without Infinity Stone feature. They might just have to settle for that cheap dilythium core...

    Those elf shipbuilders do not screw around do they? Only the finest tech for Navy at record speeds.

    And who would forget those magical Mistral funds that totally haven't been used up all these years. How much was it, 2 billion bucks?

    Wow, 100k supercarrier that will cost only 2 billion... Russian shipbuilding industry is some next level shit the days, is it? Smile
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    eehnie wrote:........

    No-one said that the Project 23000 is under construction. But the first unit is very likely coming, the construction is very likely to ve done at the Zvezda upgraded shipyard, and the works can begin under the State Armament Program 2011-2020, thanks to the Mistral funds.

    Oh that's right, it's Anime-class Lider nuclear destroyer that is halfway through construction at Santa-Clausinsk shipyards is it?

    I heard that each unit will have an Infinity Stone installed in reactor core. This would limit their number to just 5 ships in class but Navy might opt to build another 5 without Infinity Stone feature. They might just have to settle for that cheap dilythium core...

    Those elf shipbuilders do not screw around do they? Only the finest tech for Navy at record speeds.

    And who would forget those magical Mistral funds that totally haven't been used up all these years. How much was it, 2 billion bucks?

    Wow, 100k supercarrier that will cost only 2 billion... Russian shipbuilding industry is some next level shit the days, is it? Smile

    Why don't we just change the name of this topic to "Toxic debate about the Shtorm class carriers construction (no evidence allowed)"?

    Also could someone please tell me what is meant by "anime ship"? I would imagine such a vessel would have many tentackles and be attached to the pacific fleet.

    Childish jokes aside could someone what is meant by this term? I don't get it.


    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:



    Dokdo and Izumo as aircraft carriers with STOVL air wing, I wonder who was talking about that on this very forum for a while now...  Cool

    WOW, a total six aircrafts for Dokdo, a 18.000 tons ship, and likely a little more for Izumo, a 27.000 tons ship.

    No doubt, wouldn't the F-35B developement being paid for by USA et others, Japan and South Korea would have developed their owns STOVL top-of-the-line aircrafts.

    Maybe not?

    Russia has not a viable, ready and competitive STOVL aircrafts, and numbers would never justify such a developement, while has already competitive aircrafts needing only the right kind of ship.

    And anyway, Dokdo is and will be nothing more than a token navale aviation asset.

    Izumo would be some more credible tool, just enough to provide self protection around the clock.

    And Izumo is not, in any way, an amphibious ship.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:21 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:@papadragon Yeah but russia doesn't have this type of ship nor the aircraft. Unless if they manage to put a yak on a modified tarentul boat lol1

    Compared to eehenie's Shtorm-class supercarrier (that is supposedly​ under construction already at secret Santa-Clausinsk shipyards in Arctic) Russia will actually be getting LHDs and STOVL aircraft at some point in the future.
    l
    So putting those two together would be reasonable course of action.

    Lol lambie, we know that for you nothing like unarmed civil icebreakers for the defense of Russia.

    No-one said that the Project 23000 is under construction. Even I said 0 units are under construction. But the first unit is very likely coming, the construction is very likely to ve done at the Zvezda upgraded shipyard, and the works can begin under the State Armament Program 2011-2020, thanks to the Mistral funds.

    Mistral funds are supposed to be used for russian counterpart which will cost much more as they will need to do the R&D.

    WOW, a total six aircrafts for Dokdo, a 18.000 tons ship, and likely a little more for Izumo, a 27.000 tons ship.

    Well, they can do the same ship but using mig29k and a ski jump and some wires to stop it at landing. The mig doesn't need catapults or expensive technology, just need to design the ship like a small carrier with a recovery aera and the ski jump.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:35 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Do you have eny evidence to suggest when Russia will make a Shtorm class?

    Also why is the naval forum so intoxicated lately?

    Oh I almost forgot to mention this is the Russian military forum enemy cells should be swiftly eliminated. The inability of the staff to dispose of enemy agents is sickening.

    смерть шпионам <-- do that

    There is not a direct reference that says when, but all the data leads to think that by the end of 2020 Russia will be ready to begin the construction of a new aircraft carrier.

    In the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 there is a clear reference about the project of aircraft carrier to be adopted being finished by the end of 2020. Also there is a clear reference to the construction and entry into service of the firts unit between 2021-2030. And today the alone living project of Russian aircraft carrier publicly known is the Project 23000. It is very interesting to do a track of the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 and to see how the real projects appearing are following the doctrine. You can see it here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211908
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211922
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211924
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032-state-armament-program-2018-2025#204557

    Also, Russia is doing the upgrade of the Zvezda shipyard. The works are very advanced. The shipyard is even building the pilot unit since 2016, and is planned to be finished by 2019 (first link). The works on the shipyard are planned to be finished by 2020 (second link).Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin confirmed that a new aircraft carrier for Russia would be built in the upgraded Zvezda shipyard, that has not limit on tonnage for the contruction of civil and military ships (second link).

    https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/200981/zvezda-shipyard-secures-first-orders/
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/

    "We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

    There is a recent public reference to the construction of ships under the size of the Project 22350(M) in the State Armament Program 2018-2025. The Pro-US commenters were salivating thinking that it would not be ships of the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 of aircraft carrier, but the first coup of reality in the forehead, because the first unit of the Project 23560 is reported under construction at this point. Its construction obviously begins under the State Armament Program 2011-2020. To note that the construction of a ship needs not to begin always in a shipyard. The construction can begin with the production of some components in one or multiple auxiliary industry. Also to note that the construction fo a big ship takes several years and there is time to finish the development of the armament that these ships plan to carry.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    And all sugests that the construction of the first unit of the Project 23000 can come fast. Russia wants to meet the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, as explained in the previous links, and for it, can not wait until 2026 to begin the construction of a new aircraft carrier. If the construction of the first unit begins not under the State Armament Program 2018-2025, the most likely option is to begin under the State Armament Program 2011-2020, like in the case of the Project 23560. I do not think Russia will wait until 2021 to begin the construction of its new aircraft carrier.

    Why is the naval forum so intoxicated lately? They are reading what they dislike and they love to control the narrative.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Happy New Year everyone, just gonna drops some replies before returning to bed where I belong ATM      santa


    GunshipDemocracy wrote:................
    d) 3 tasks already mentioned earlier onby PapaDragon small universal  LHD/ACs/ASW helicopter AC with 18-24 V/STOL fighters is more then enough.
    .................


    And coincidently, look what is happening in the Pacific even as we speak. Someone must have thought of this before me...or was it the other way around?   Very Happy


    Amphibious Ships Transformed Into Aircraft Carriers Debut in Asia-Pacific

    http://defense-update.com/20171231_lhd_with_f35.html


    They didnt read  Perriers, Eehneis posts damn. Neither Royal Navy did.


    PapaDragon wrote:
    Dokdo and Izumo as aircraft carriers with STOVL air wing, I wonder who was talking about that on this very forum for a while now...  Cool

    Ohhhhh Thank you for mentioning me again  respekt respekt :@:To me the choice is obvious: you got 3 ships in price of 1.
    Very positive IMHO surprise would be if Russians add more UKSK-Ms to make it true TAKR ... not like LHD/AC. But we ll have to live to see it yet Smile





    and below vertical take off and landing of F-35b. For all folks this is basic carrier model for Royal Navy and USMC Smile




    and here STOVL action looks like  simulation of AC operations


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:it's Anime-class Lider nuclear destroyer

    Also could someone please tell me what is meant by "anime ship"?

    Childish jokes aside could someone what is meant by this term? I don't get it.

    Hi means the Project 23560 is not a real ship. Despite serious sources put the first ship under construction.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:25 pm


    Well, they can do the same ship but using mig29k and a ski jump and some wires to stop it at landing. The mig doesn't need catapults or expensive technology, just need to design the ship like a small carrier with a recovery aera and the ski jump.

    That's not the point.

    Adding an angled deck means adding an angled deck lonng enough and able to withstand landings, plus having arrestor gears.

    By all past experiences, under 30.000+ tons it isn't possible to design a flat top equipped with an angled deck able to let 18+ tons aircrafts land on it.

    Charles de Gaulle is probably the smallest size a modern carrier could be, and it has nuclear propulsion, which usually has a fairly small footprint compared to the propulsive power generated.

    With facilities devoted to amphibious operations, the 37.000 tons of Charles de Gaulle would be far less than ideal.

    Reality is, the characteristics are dictated by Phisics, and an angled deck alone require a good tonnage in displacements by itself.

    A Wasp would easily top the 50.000 tons mark, if it had an angled deck added.

    I am higly skeptical about Russia building a 100.000 tons vessel, it would be really an overshot and of doubtful fit within the actual and foreseeble force structure of the russian Navy.

    But I am far more than skeptikal about the chances an LHD could turn into an aircraft carrier, the more so if requiring an angled deck.

    A carrier has to be purpose designed and built, and require its own internal facilities and spaces.

    And it needs a decent displacement just to act as a carrier, without much more roles to play.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:31 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Any costs of developing new STOVL aircraft will be immediately offset by massive savings that will be result of using much cheaper and flexible carrier vessels.

    Fake, fake, fake, fake lol!


    http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20160324_Fact-Sheet.pdf

    $55.1 Billion = Development costs F-35 (only Research, Development, Test and Evaluation costs, nothing of procurement, nothing of military construction)


    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS20643.pdf

    $04.7 Billion = Development cost G Ford Aircraft Carriers
    $12.9 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-78 G Ford Aircraft Carrier)
    $11.4 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-79 JF Kennedy Aircraft Carrier)
    $13.0 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-80 Enterprise Aircraft Carrier)
    $13.0 Billion = My estimation of the Cost per unit (CV-81 ????? Aircraft Carrier)
    $55.0 Billion = Total cost of development of the G Ford Aircraft Carriers plus construction of the 4 aircraft carriers


    We have here some pro-US liying, like this one, but the reality emerges.

    Key economic information to avoid to be fooled.

    The part of the $55.1 Billions is where South Korea, Japan and the UK have less obligations.

    The counter part is that these countries are only allowed to build follower ships for the big US aircraft carreirs, they are only allowed to build ships without real capabilities by themselves. And this people want the same for Russia plus the equivalent of the $55.1 Billion of spending.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:25 am

    eehnie wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:it's Anime-class Lider nuclear destroyer

    Also could someone please tell me what is meant by "anime ship"?

    Childish jokes aside could someone what is meant by this term? I don't get it.

    Hi means the Project 23560 is not a real ship. Despite serious sources put the first ship under construction.


    For the record we are talking about this little piece of shipbuilding design ''brilliance''.
    According to our clown here this thing is totally under construction in Santa-Clausinsk shipyard even as we speak. Totally not anime... lol1 Razz






    GunshipDemocracy wrote:....They didnt read Perriers, Eehneis posts damn. Neither Royal Navy did....

    Pathetic fools are they not?

    But then again even likes of Nelson, Ushakov and Nimitz pale in comparison to pure naval genius of Grand Admirals eehenia and Perrier don't they? pwnd

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:04 am

    So, just to cure my own ignorance, how much could/should cost the development of a new russian STOVL aircraft?

    Very approssimate guess-stimations will be welcome as well.

    Please, don't be shy and put some number forward.

    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:08 am

    2 reasons why this aircraft will be ordered:

    #1: Keep a design bureau afloat, either YAK/MIG aka nepotism with Russian tax payer money.
    #2: Keep up with Western development of single-engine VTOL aircraft which can spill over to the drone development realm. By Western, I mean the U.S so it's a very weak reason but hey.... can't think of many that would make sense. The points put forth by people in favor are weak as hell in my opinion.

    No brainer to just develop Shtorm and put navalized Pak-fa's/Navalized Su-35s or 34's in it. Save the money (R&D) AND time (10 years least on that engine). Not to mention, capabilities will be maximized in that combo config, not constrained.

    4 Shtorms would be ideal. But b4 all of that, Russia should bulk up on destroyers.


    Last edited by ATLASCUB on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    ....They didnt read  Perriers, Eehneis posts damn. Neither Royal Navy did....

    Pathetic fools are they not?

    But then again even likes of Nelson, Ushakov and Nimitz pale in comparison to pure naval genius of Grand Admirals eehenia and Perrier don't they? pwnd

    we, we might disagree with both eehnie and perrier, sometimes fairly strong  Idea  but there is no reason to call them bad names.





    Peŕrier wrote:So, just to cure my own ignorance, how much could/should cost the development of a new russian STOVL aircraft?

    Very approssimate guess-stimations will be welcome as well.

    Please, don't be shy and put some number forward.


    How much should cost? how can I or anybody here possibly know? We do not know who is sponsoring, what should be characteristics or tasks to fulfill.  Since F-18, F-35 or Yak-141 didn't pass 2Ma mark possibly this one also will not have need to.  PAK FA cost is about $20BLN so this one should be less.   

    I'd also presume that deal with Arab Emirates can offset this costs by nice part.  This fighter if build probably replaces MiG-29 class and be for export to. 


    My educated guess is that technically it will be something like F-35 , possibly less stealth but with better flight characteristics. To keep costs down usage of NK-32, PAK-FA avionics or coatings would greatly help.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:30 am

    PapaDragon wrote:...

    Our poor lambie so desperate with the first unit of the Project 23560 under construction



    If our lambie enlarges the image will begin panicking.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:06 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:2 reasons why this aircraft will be ordered:

    #1: Keep a design bureau afloat, either YAK/MIG aka nepotism with Russian tax payer money.
    #2: Keep up with Western development of single-engine VTOL aircraft which can spill over to the drone development realm....

    #3 and most important one: someone else is paying for it and Navy is taking a chance for a free ride just like with MiG-29K on Indian dime




    Peŕrier wrote:So, just to cure my own ignorance, how much could/should cost the development of a new russian STOVL aircraft?

    Very approssimate guess-stimations will be welcome as well.

    Please, don't be shy and put some number forward.

    I am sure that it is so super very much money and that exact amount is listed somewhere in Russian Naval Doctrine of 2015 as an argument not to develop it

    If only we had someone to post a copy of that document here, so many questions would be answered...  Razz




    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:...

    Our poor lambie so desperate with the first unit of the Project 23560 under construction
    .................
    If our lambie enlarges the image will begin panicking.


    Oh my God, you are right. It's totally under construction at space shipyard Russia launched into Lunar orbit last year!!!  affraid Razz

    I zoomed in and I am panicking because reality overwhelmed me, look:

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:16 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    ....

    And it needs a decent displacement just to act as a carrier, without much more roles to play.

    And for which roles and where should it sail? the Northern Route? Baltic? or be the white elephant near Kamchatka?  And here we get back to basics: Russian Navy has no need for AC besides protection of own subs and geopolitical dick waving. 

    Besides Russia has no budget to build  "pure ACs" and "pure LPHDs" not to mention that USN Wasp class LHD has 20 F-35Bs in "sea control" missions. And no angled deck. Why? no need for arrester gear. No need for catapult either 
     
    For me Russia has 2 options it would be 2+ of  30,000-40000tones displacement or max 2 of 60-70,000 tons class
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:2 reasons why this aircraft will be ordered:

    #1: Keep a design bureau afloat, either YAK/MIG aka nepotism with Russian tax payer money.
    #2: Keep up with Western development of single-engine VTOL aircraft which can spill over to the drone development realm....

    #3 and most important one: someone else is paying for it and Navy is taking a chance for a free ride just like with MiG-29K on Indian dime


    Fly emirates?  Razz Razz Razz

    PapaDragon wrote:

    I zoomed in and I am panicking because reality overwhelmed me, look:

      if that's Leader then what is this? some fake reports? or what?  What a Face What a Face What a Face



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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:07 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:2 reasons why this aircraft will be ordered:

    #1: Keep a design bureau afloat, either YAK/MIG aka nepotism with Russian tax payer money.
    #2: Keep up with Western development of single-engine VTOL aircraft which can spill over to the drone development realm. By Western, I mean the U.S so it's a very weak reason but hey.... can't think of many that would make sense. The points put forth by people in favor are weak as hell in my opinion.

    No brainer to just develop Shtorm and put navalized Pak-fa's/Navalized Su-35s or 34's in it. Save the money (R&D) AND time (10 years least on that engine). Not to mention, capabilities will be maximized in that combo config, not constrained.

    4 Shtorms would be ideal. But b4 all of that, Russia should bulk up on destroyers.

    All the design bureaus were merged by Putin in 2006 (UAC). Economically they are a unity. Still as bureaus there is some independence and increasing specialisation, but at this point there is enough work to keep them very busy until 2025.

    1.- Irkut (Yakovlev) (Airliners and Trainers): MS-21. Likely CRAIC joint venture wil have support from Yakovlev.
    2.- Ilyushin (Transport aircrafts): A number of transport aircrafts in development.
    3.- MiG (Fighter Interceptors): MiG-41
    4.- Tupolev (Strategic Bombers): Tu-PAK-DA
    5.- Sukhoi (Fighters and Fighter Ground Attack): Su-57 (begin of serial production). Likely MiG and Tupolev will have also support from Sukhoi.

    To note that the Ministry of Defense talking about orders of the L-410, SR-10 and Diamond DA42 is bad news for Yakovlev. This project would be fairly distracting for Yakovlev.
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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:...

    lol!  you are panicking even more than expected. Typical US spacial panicking  lol1  You are more US than a Buick.

    Russia will take the money and use it properly in the right projects. France payed the birth of the Projects 23560 and Project 23000. And the UAE will pay the birth of the MiG-41 and the Tu-PAK-DA.lol!  lol!  

    Now that you had the "surgery" you at least have some future going to Eurovision.


    Last edited by eehnie on Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:59 am

    Indeed there is no need to repeat the same arguments from both sides. As for Iranians, apart form moral grounds, I am sure they shoot passenger plane but didn't care or planned this (vide MH-17) .

    The point is that if they had used carrier based aviation to investigate the "target" they would have realised their error and over 200 people would still be breathing today.

    Move that to any situation at sea and having aircraft you can send to investigate offers flexibility and critical information to the commanders of those vessels and that naval group... information sending a small corvette to investigate cannot match.

    a) Russia cannot and in our lifetime unlikely can afford so many ACs as US. Thus every try to counter US CSG in Midway style is doomed for failure

    Russia does not need carriers to take on the US Navy... what a stupid fucking waste of time and money that would be.

    Russia needs a couple of carriers... perhaps only two new ones with the upgraded K as support/backup so that when they are operating a group of ships away from Russian shores it can offer air protection.

    b) Russia's doctrine focuses on sea denial not sea control and if you look currently every ship or plane is or will be platform to long-arm precision weapons. With 1500 km hypersonic antishp airborne missiles you dont really need so much AA cover by own fighters, do you?

    During WWIII the goal will be to defeat NATO vessels... big and small and the optimum way to do that is at extended range with powerful missiles... not aircraft which are slower and much more vulnerable, yet likely not more effective.

    During peacetime having a carrier that you can send to the south atlantic for a visit to Argentina and perhaps deliver some Su-30Ms or MiG-31BMs Smile means the ability to protect your own ships and to see what is around while you are doing it.

    c) there are drones for surveillance drones

    Yes, they will most likely have them too.

    3 tasks already mentioned earlier onby PapaDragon small universal LHD/ACs/ASW helicopter AC with 18-24 V/STOL fighters is more then enough.

    Such confidence regarding V/STOL fighters that don't actually currently exist and likely are not even on paper or computer model yet.

    Even right now without EM cats, a MiG-29K2 is superior to any potential V/STOL aircraft you could build... anything you could put on the new V/STOL aircraft to make it superior could just as easily be put on the MiG to make it even more so because the MiG will be lighter and stronger and cheaper.

    Dokdo and Izumo as aircraft carriers with STOVL air wing, I wonder who was talking about that on this very forum for a while now...

    If they have to take off V then they aren't worth getting airborne... a false promise.

    Russia will actually be getting LHDs and STOVL aircraft at some point in the future.

    They didn't get them last time.

    The Russian Navy is the poor half cousin in the Russian military heirarchy... they only got MiG-29K2s because India bought some... they would still have Su-33s with partial upgrades otherwise... and you think they will be getting state of the art super naval VSTOL fighters... yeah right.., now who is the fanboy.

    Russia has not a viable, ready and competitive STOVL aircrafts, and numbers would never justify such a developement, while has already competitive aircrafts needing only the right kind of ship.

    They have no export market for such planes, so two helicopter carriers that at a stretch carry 16 helicopters might have 4-6 jets and maybe 4-5 helicopters... making it useless as a helicopter carrier and nothing like an aircraft carrier that could support a landing or some sort of international operations...

    What a waste of money.

    Mistral funds are supposed to be used for russian counterpart which will cost much more as they will need to do the R&D.

    They have full design information for the Mistral... a Russification of that would suffice.... perhaps a nuke engine for endurance and speed, and better defensive array of weapons and sensors, and ice operations capability too.


    and below vertical take off and landing of F-35b. For all folks this is basic carrier model for Royal Navy and USMC

    WOW... amazing... I am totally converted.... what was its fuel weight and weapon load?

    It probably had quarter tanks and no weapons and was therefore not a weapon of war.

    The Hilarious thing of course is that some suggest Eehnie is a joke for suggesting they might be building a carrier sometime in the near future but those same people are certain that Russia will build an F-35B analog in less time than it would take to build a super carrier... wake up.

    The Russian navy can't afford either.

    I'd also presume that deal with Arab Emirates can offset this costs by nice part. This fighter if build probably replaces MiG-29 class and be for export to.

    So not only do you want to make a more expensive (than conventional land based aircraft) VTOL fighter you want your allies to buy it too?

    What MiG will be building with the UAE will be a 5th gen fighter... what makes you think that will be ready before 2030.... how long has PAK FA taken to design and get into production? Do you think this light fighter will be designed and built faster or cheaper?

    #3 and most important one: someone else is paying for it and Navy is taking a chance for a free ride just like with MiG-29K on Indian dime

    You could turn that around and say the Russian Navy does not spend money to upgrade or improve aircraft until it is in a corner with a gun to its head so what sort of future could a VSTOL aircraft have with them?

    The UAE will buy 50 and the Russian Navy will buy 12... 6 for each Mistralski and it will be the most expensive aircraft in Russian history.

    The magical formula of Papadragon: The UAE will pay the cost.

    Yeah... as part of the contract they could get them made in France with their Mistrals... or not.


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    temp temp talking rubbish

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Indeed there is no need to repeat the same arguments from both sides. As for Iranians, apart form moral grounds,  I am sure they shoot passenger plane but didn't care or planned this (vide MH-17) .

    The point is that if they had used carrier based aviation to investigate the "target" they would have realised their error and over 200 people would still be breathing today.


    and sending drone doesn't count? 



    Russia does not need carriers to take on the US Navy... what a stupid fucking waste of time and money that would be.

    Russia needs a couple of carriers... perhaps only two new ones with the upgraded K as support/backup so that when they are operating a group of ships away from Russian shores it can offer air protection.

    as one of roles very true



    During peacetime having a carrier that you can send to the south atlantic for a visit to Argentina and perhaps deliver some Su-30Ms or MiG-31BMs  Smile means the ability to protect your own ships and to see what is around while you are doing it.


    Agree. This was called "geopolitical dick waving" wasnt it? 



    3 tasks already mentioned earlier onby PapaDragon small universal  LHD/ACs/ASW helicopter AC with 18-24 V/STOL fighters is more then enough.

    Such confidence regarding V/STOL fighters that don't actually currently exist and likely are not even on paper or computer model yet.

    Even right now without EM cats, a MiG-29K2 is superior to any potential V/STOL aircraft you could build... anything you could put on the new V/STOL aircraft to make it superior could just as easily be put on the MiG to make it even more so because the MiG will be lighter and stronger and cheaper.

    Nmm neither Zircons nor GZURs or MiG-41 don't exist yet too. MiG 29k  is form 70s. Accepting it on 2010 is only because almost 20 years project was not funded. Russians buily 24 for own needs and not going to buy anymore.  I wonder why?

    Probably you did not check details: STOL without ski jump for  Yak-141 was 120m,  for MiG-29k with ski jump is 200m If those 80m of ship and vertical landing ability i\means noting for fleet you're probably right. 


    BTW In 2030s you want to relay on 60th years old fighter machine?! 




    Dokdo and Izumo as aircraft carriers with STOVL air wing, I wonder who was talking about that on this very forum for a while now...

    If they have to take off V then they aren't worth getting airborne... a false promise.

    why they shpild have? they can get STOL




    The Russian Navy is the poor half cousin in the Russian military heirarchy... they only got MiG-29K2s because India bought some... they would still have Su-33s with partial upgrades otherwise... and you think they will be getting state of the art super naval VSTOL fighters... yeah right.., now who is the fanboy.

    Because in 2025 most of aviation plants will have not much to do? because Russia still needs light Vgen fighter?  also fo rexport? because only fanbois can rely on MiG29K , then why not on Po-2 Smile



    Russia has not a viable, ready and competitive STOVL aircrafts, and numbers would never justify such a developement, while has already competitive aircrafts needing only the right kind of ship.

    They have no export market for such planes, so two helicopter carriers that at a stretch carry 16 helicopters might have 4-6 jets and maybe 4-5 helicopters... making it useless as a helicopter carrier and nothing like an aircraft carrier that could support a landing or some sort of international operations...

    What a waste of money.

    how do you know that no customers? Besides you never checked about Wasp LHD class? neither Canberra, Izumo or Juan Carlos? Wasp is to have sea control missions (i.e. light carrier with 20 fighters wing) or  LHD missions. What s the difference with Kuznetsov with 24 fighters? 





    The Hilarious thing of course is that some suggest Eehnie is a joke for suggesting they might be building a carrier sometime in the near future but those same people are certain that Russia will build an F-35B analog in less time than it would take to build a super carrier... wake up.

    The Russian navy can't afford either.

    Hilarious is that some of us dont recognize need of LHDs/light carriers/ASW ships for Russia.  And dont accept the fact that for some reasons many fleets opt for F-35B nor MiG-29k or F-18.  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil





    I'd also presume that deal with Arab Emirates can offset this costs by nice part.  This fighter if build probably replaces MiG-29 class and be for export to.

    So not only do you want to make a more expensive (than conventional land based aircraft) VTOL fighter you want your allies to buy it too?

    What MiG will be building with the UAE will be a 5th gen fighter... what makes you think that will be ready before 2030.... how long has PAK FA taken to design and get into production? Do you think this light fighter will be designed and built faster or cheaper?


     V/STOL or STOVL both can start and land vertically it doesn't mean they have to do it every time.  Nothing tells me it will be before 2025s or even 2030s. Whe did I say this? So what's the problem? 

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