Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

GarryB wrote:
The only advantage they have is being able to operate from slightly cheaper small carriers like helicopter carriers, but you start putting one on a helicopter carrier and that is not really much use in terms of air defence but at least it is still a helicopter carrier. Put a dozen on a Mistral sized carrier and there is no room for helicopters so you have a helicopter landing ship with no helicopters and a dozen fairly ordinary short range slow attack fighters.

In what could be seen as a change in Japan’s defense posture that has banned the possession of offensive aircraft carriers, the Defense Ministry is considering buying new fighter jets that may be put on its helicopter carriers, government sources said Sunday.

The sources said the introduction of F-35Bs, which are capable of short takeoffs and vertical landings, will be useful to counter China’s growing maritime assertiveness. They are expected to bolster defenses of far-flung islands in the southwest, where only short runways exist, they said.

The move, however, is likely to trigger a backlash from China and other neighboring countries, because they could perceive it as contradicting Japan’s so-called “exclusively defense-oriented policy” under the pacifist Constitution.

GarryB wrote:

Regardless if one likes it (me) or not (GarryB at fist place Smile this is already budgeted in the new Goszakazplan so we'll see it live in less then 10 years. :-)

In the 1990s the Yak-41 was in the budget too until it was cancelled. Now that they have no Kiev class carriers it all comes down to what size carriers they want to make.

GarryB wrote:

As for VTOL qualities, landing space is I guess first requirement (Arctic, fleet, short runways in case of war). As for radar or speed. Who needs now speed? look at Rafale, Hornet or F-35 they are not even 2Ma. Range of speed same as in Yak-141 frm 80s. Radar? who told you that now VTOL has to have worse radar? vide F-35B.

The Yak-41 was inferior in every way to the MiG-29K... speed, radar... except ability to damage a runway....

Peŕrier wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:


Regardless if one likes it (me) or not (GarryB at fist place this is already budgeted in the new Goszakazplan so we'll see it live in less then 10 years. :-)

As for VTOL qualities, landing space is I guess first requirement (Arctic, fleet, short runways in case of war). As for radar or speed. Who needs now speed? look at Rafale, Hornet or F-35 they are not even 2Ma. Range of speed same as in Yak-141 frm 80s. Radar? who told you that now VTOL has to have worse radar? vide F-35B.

Being budgeted doesn't mean it will be developed and inducted in service.
History is full of project that NEVER made to the operational status, some being aborted still on the drawing  boards.

Peŕrier wrote:
Second, everybody is entitled to his own opinion on Russia's defence spending, but it is just a fact that the Kremlin and various State's bodies have an interest to keep most if not all of its military industrial base alive.

A challenging project, even if not really meant to reach serial production, could be a nice trick to both keep some bureau afloat, give him a glimp of confidence about his future and hone his technological skills.

Peŕrier wrote:
I still do not believe we will see any, I mean any, operational combat aircraft with VTOL capabilities.
There is a simple reason behind this skepticism: a combat aircraft is supposed to survive when confronted by opponents combat aircrafts.

It require electronic on par, performances on par, pilot's training on par, tactics on par, C3I on par.
Remove one of the above, and you will struggle to maintain overall parity.
Remove two or more, and you will end on the losing side.
A VTOL aircraft has a big penalty in the hardware required for vertical take offs and landings, both on weight and in volumes.

Peŕrier wrote:

There is no chance a VTOL could have same range, same electronics, same payload of a CTOL aircraft having same technological level and MTOW.

If that wouldn't be true, it would be like somebody carrying an Anvil on his back could have same sport performances of when free of any ballast.

It is simply not true, baĺlast is and wiĺl always be a penalty.
Moreover, Russia has not a dozen big LHD or LHA to deploy some meaningful number of VTOL aircrafts.

Peŕrier wrote:
The U.S. have at least the excuse behind the F-35B, by the way a STOVL, not  a VTOL aircraft, of around a dozen LHD and LHA,  plus a couple of British STOVL carriers and at least one Italian pocket STOVL carrier.

With the U.S. ship's displacing around 45K tons, the British carriers more than 60K tons, and only the Italian one close to the 30k tons mark.

Russia could have, at best, three flat tops around 30K tons, neither so large nor very big.

It's debatable if a ship around 30K tons could operate more than 8 - 10 aircrafts. Actually, if an amphibious one, it will be able to operate no more than 5 or 6.

At best, there will be around a couple dozens aircrafts embarked at any time, but actually there will be more likely less than 20, because an amphibious ship has no enough space and facilities to support a meaningful number of combat aircrafts.

The British, having realized that, acted at the contrary: they have developed a purpose built STOVL carrier, centered around a requirement for around 40 STOVL fighters, then expanded the project to be able to act as a LHA when needed. That way, they ended designing two ship's displacing more than 60K tons, and still when acting as an LHA the carriers will have to get rid of most of the aircrafts, to make room to assault helicopters.

Isos wrote:VTOL would be great for naval drones. They weight far less than fighter and they don't need payload just a small radar or a camera.

An unmanned aircraft with a variable thrust vector can appear in Russia in 2023. This in an interview with RIA Novosti said the head of the Center for Advanced Studies, deputy director of the company "Kronstadt" Vladimir Voronov . It will be a universal device capable of both destroying the enemy's living force and equipment and delivering the necessary cargoes to the battlefield, said Oleg Ponomarenko , a military expert at the Center for Strategic Situations .

It is reported that the Russian percussion UAV will be created on the basis of the already existing dredge Fregat. At the same time, the first version of the military unmanned vehicle will be a two-ton model.

"If there is an engine, we can create a two-tone first and pick it up in three years. It can be used not only as a scout and percussion, but also as a transport vehicle. In a semitone with payload, one ton range can be three thousand kilometers. For a helicopter and an incomprehensible distance. It will take another three years to produce it, "the representative of the center said.

It's simply not true that a VTOL aircraft like Harrier or F-35B will melt the asphalt of streets away! It's a fact that in high summer in addition the heat of the fans will make the asphalt like warm wax, so maybe the aircraft will sink in partially a bit and of course damaging the street.

Uhm, Garry, this is from the Afghanistan history thread by archangelski.

So none of navies buying F-35B know what they are doing? British, Spanish, Italian and recently Japanese? All top brass has no idea that STOVL sucks?

le petite différence then USSR ceased to exist. Not because anything was wrong with fighters. Russia unlikely ceases to exist in 2018-2025

They MiG-29 had same radar Zhuk and avionics so not true. Yak was to have also HUD display in 80s... Smile really so bad ? pls note there is a difference of over 20 years in both fighters' design.

Peŕrier wrote:
No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

Peŕrier wrote:
So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

Azi wrote:

They said that Yak-38 was used in STVOL mode and made a good perfomance. Other point is, that in Afghanistan runways with a few km length were seldom, so that Yak-38 was more effective, because other aircraft flew longer distance from ordinary air bases. Fuel was lower, but it didn't matter because the Yak-38 was near the frontline. So most time Yak-38 had a bigger fuel reserve, when returning as other aircraft.

The problems with airstrip were real, but it was a experiment first time they used a VTOL/STOVL aircraft in a conflict of a landlocked country. So they have now the know how, maybe they have some sufficient funds...and let's see what happens

Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to. and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?

eehnie wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Peŕrier wrote:
No, the Yak-141 had a scaled down version of Zhuk to save weight and volume (surprise!).

if you compare available data of Zhuk model in MiG 86'  and scaled down Yak version actual deection abilities are the same. surprise

Peŕrier wrote:
So to provide almost the same performances of a Mig-29K, a Yak-141 had to operate just as a Mig-29K, making the two auxiliary turbojet and the swiveling nozzle just a baĺlast.

It is not by chance that Yak-141 was ditched and Mig-29K development was pursued instead.

Really you you have statement of any top brass about it? because from history Soviet Union was dissolved and many programs stopped not because they were wrong.  You compare  Yak from 80' with MiG from 2010. And surprisingly MiG is better. I would be surprised  if not.  

Besides what is the problem with short take of for VTOL fighter? you can land on any frigate if you have to.  and maybe this is the value enough to justify this?  


Please tell me then
1) why MiG-29K is not going to be developed further neither produced for RuN?
2) Why Royal Navy resigned  from CATOBAR F-35 and gone for F-35B if this suck so much?

1) The MiG-29/35 is an aircraft design of the late 1970s, early 1980s. The MiG-29K is a late variant, and will not have further development because of the advanced age of its technological basis. By the time when new aircrafts for aircraft carriers will be needed in Russia, the design of the MiG-29 will be fairly exhausted. The same for the Su-27/30/33/35 and its naval variant, the Su-33.

At the time the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35 were selected as basis for fighters for the aircraft carriers over other VTOL options because of a superior performance. The main problem with the VTOL fighters, is to produce designs underperformers by nature. The addition of VTOL systems to a modern fighter is expensive, adds weight, and damages the performance.

It is not totally right to say that the Yak-141 and other VTOL variants of the 1980s were cancelled because of the fall of the Soviet Union. At the time, these designs were defeated by the naval variant of the Su-27/30/33/35, the Su-33, just produced between 1989 and 1999 (not cancelled like the VTOL options), and later also by the naval variant of the MiG-29/35, the MiG-29K.

If Russia does a bid for an new VTOL fighter, very very likely it will fall to the Su-57, like previous bids failed in the 1980s to the MiG-29/35 and the Su-27/30/33/35. The best option for Russia is to use the Su-57 for its future aircraft carriers, even, if possible, without need of a naval variant.

Peŕrier wrote:No, Yak-141's tests showed it could perform vertical take offs with one ton of payload only.

To bring around 2,5 tons of payload it had to perform a 120 meters take off run

Peŕrier wrote:
STOVL (a là F-35B) could have a meaning when you are already operating a large enough number  of flat tops that couldn't possibly operate aircrafts requiring arrestor gear.

If you have not such large number of flat tops, the  STOVL start loosing appeal as well.

Peŕrier wrote:
It was not by chance or mistake that they opted for Su-33 and Mig-29K instead of Yak-141: with the only constraint of an angled deck with arrestor gear, they got far more versatile and useful combat aircraft.