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    Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:49 pm

    F-35 is VTOL and it's used as STOVL by Royal Navy, it's the different setting on same airplane you dumb braindead moron.

    No way, F-35B is not and was not meant to be a true VTOL.

    It could only perform a vertical take off when empty of any weapon, or as alternative with some armament but little fuel on board.

    Put it plainly, its vertical take off capabilities are a feat aimed only to transfers through whatever ship available to carry it into theater of operations.

    There it would perform a single vertical take off, if the ship is lacking a proper flight deck, to relocate itself onboard a flat top or an expeditionary airfield.

    End of vertical take offs stunts.

    It is simply phisics, you could not have on the same aircraft vertical take off, payload and range.

    By the way, F-35B has several limitations in range, payload and dynamics performances compared to its siblings F-35A and F-35C. The fan and transmission required for vertical landings, together with the related stuff put an hefty penalty on the aircraft, as always has been in past STOVL projects


    Last edited by Peŕrier on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Supercarrier = white elephant for Russia, just like Kuznetzov is now. Naval budget will not be growing and neither will importance of surface fleet in Russian naval doctrine.

    This was the funniest part   lol1  lol1

    See here, see here, when a What a Face is caught:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p600-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-1#191117

    I thought we agreed we were going to lay off that stuff...

    Do I have to ban some people?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:37 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Supercarrier = white elephant for Russia, just like Kuznetzov is now. Naval budget will not be growing and neither will importance of surface fleet in Russian naval doctrine.

    This was the funniest part   lol1  lol1

    See here, see here, when a liar intoxicator is caught:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p600-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-1#191117

    censored

    Not very classy.... do you need a ban break too?

    Careful how you both respond... you are clearly both pissed off, but I am really not in the mood.
    GarryB
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:46 pm

    lol1  lol1  lol1 enjoy, enjoy the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015:

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.




    and enjoy very much how the Russian Maritime doctrine is becoming real in the real projects:



    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2897p425-russian-naval-aviation-news#211801

    eehnie wrote:1- First this is how the modern real Russian VTOL aircrafts are:

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/vr_konvertoplan_2019/
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russianhelicopters.aero%2Fru%2Fpress%2Fnews%2Fvr_konvertoplan_2019%2F

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1027612/na_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flife.ru%2Ft%2F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2%25D0%25BE%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B8%2F1027612%2Fna_maks-2017_priedstaviat_ekspierimientalnyi_biespilotnyi_konviertoplan_vrt30





    2.- Second, the article posted assumes the future production of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201712151060040750-new-russian-vtol-aircraft-analysis/

    In the meantime, the military has already offered hints about its vision of the future of Russian naval aviation. The MoD plans to lay down the Project 23000E Shtorm heavy aircraft carrier sometime between 2025 and 2030. By that time, the Navy expects to receive two new Priboy-class universal helicopter-carrying amphibious assault ships. These, it can be safely assumed, would be perfectly capable of carrying any new VTOL project the aircraft industry throws their way.

    I do not think the timeline would be right, but this reference to the Project 23000, the alone real project of aircraft carrier living today in Russia, is the most realistict comment of the article.



    3.- Finally, in the descriptions of the Project 23000 aircraft carrier we can find how a VTOL aircraft fits with the ship:

    http://www.deagel.com/Fighting-Ships/Project-23000E_a003273001.aspx

    The ship will carry 100 aircraft including the navalized version of the T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter, Mig-29Ks and Yak-44 early warning and control aircraft.

    Very likely the bolded in red are the 2 new aircrafts Bondarev is talking about these days. Obviously and logically, the fighter aircraft to replace all the current shipborne fighters will be the Su-57 (T-50). The second plane to replace the entire Russian shipborne fleet would be this new early warning and control aircraft. The MiG-29 is of a previous generation.

    https://tacairnet.com/2015/07/20/could-the-yak-44-make-a-comeback-for-russias-next-carrier/

    While Russia anticipates fulfilling the fighter/attack and utility roles with its current aviation projects, its AEW&C capabilities are very anemic. At the moment, the Russian Navy uses Kamov Ka-31 Helixes to fulfill the AEW&C role- essentially refitted coaxial helicopters that carry a large rotating/folding radar antenna underneath the fuselage. While the Helix does actually perform somewhat as needed while deployed aboard the Kuznetsov, it just doesn’t live up to the mark set by fixed-wing AEW&C aircraft like the E-2C/D Hawkeye, currently in shipboard use with the United States Navy and the French Navy. A limited range and a very limited onboard sensor suite are two of the Helix’s biggest flaws. Therefore, Russia if builds a better carrier than the one they have right now, they’re going to need better AEW&C aircraft too. The article in IHS Jane’s did state that Russia expects to build a jet-powered airborne early warning aircraft. However, an AEW&C jet would, in comparison with a turboprop version, likely necessitate heavier maintenance, fly with a reduced range and, in general, just cost a heck of a lot more. So it might actually make more sense for Russia to consider building the propeller-powered alternative instead, and luckily for them, in designing a brand new AEW&C plane, they can call upon the scrapped Yak-44 project.

    In this quote we can see how some media identified this new project with the Yak-44. Like que Yak-141, the Yak-44 was a project cancelled with the fall of the Soviet Union, but like in the case of the Yak-141 some media identified the project of a new early warning and control aircraft with the Yak-44 project because this was also the role of the old project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

    For the following years, a new early warning and control aircraft (in fact a shipborne maritime patrol aircraft) design would be totally different. It can be VTOL and it can be unmanned. The words of Bondarev about a new VTOL plane following the Yak like make sense, but not like the media is taking them.

    A new Russian VTOL early warning and control aircraft can emerge in the future following this line of the most modern VTOL aircrafts that Russia is designing now.

    Note that now you can read in the Russian Maritime Doctrine even how the timeline for the entry into service of the first aircraft carrier by 2030 makes unlikely a laid down after 2025.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:18 am

    Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:52 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:29 am

    Any carrier that gets laid down in the early 2020s will be a helicopter carrier at most.

    As mentioned above the F-35B is not a VTOL aircraft and therefore any claim that operating them from deck helo pads is plainly wrong.

    Any future Russian VSTOL aircraft would have the same issues and the same limitations that makes operation of them from frigates and corvettes and helicopter carriers pointless.

    The Russian Navy does not need a replacement for the K in the next ten years so laying a new carrier design down before 2025 is not critical and even if the US was building it it would not be operational for a decade anyway... that is just how long these things take. Get over it.

    In 2030 hopefully the Russian economy and politics will demand a blue water navy able to sail to anywhere in the world to support her interests and the interests of her allies, so by then a carrier will be useful.... if not essential.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:30 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".

    Russians aren't laying down a carrier in 2021 or 2022, they made that clear they themselves said this.

    Or is the russians intoxicators now.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:55 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".

    Russians aren't laying down a carrier in 2021 or 2022, they made that clear they themselves said this.

    Or is the russians intoxicators now.

    False. Link?
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:09 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".

    Russians aren't laying down a carrier in 2021 or 2022, they made that clear they themselves said this.

    Or is the russians intoxicators now.

    False. Link?

    Are you serious ? You had official statements saying that the pak fa would be introduced in the 2012-2015 and then 2016 years but it is still not ready. A supercarrier is like 1000 times harder to build. They don't even have think about what they really want. Shtorm is just a concept that has Nothing to do wth what navy wants.

    Russians are known to say this type of propaganda. Every year they say they will lay down carriers, they will introduce new fighter, new tanks. Those are just propaganda articles that have nothing to do with reality.

    In 2021 they will probably be busy with the 5th or 6th gorshkov and still trying to draw the super-gorshkov ...

    A carrier in 2021... seriously ? are you connected to the reality ?
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:47 pm

    Isos wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".

    Russians aren't laying down a carrier in 2021 or 2022, they made that clear they themselves said this.

    Or is the russians intoxicators now.

    False. Link?

    Are you serious ? You had official statements saying that the pak fa would be introduced in the 2012-2015 and then 2016 years but it is still not ready. A supercarrier is like 1000 times harder to build. They don't even have think about what they really want. Shtorm is just a concept that has Nothing to do wth what navy wants.

    Russians are known to say this type of propaganda. Every year they say they will lay down carriers, they will introduce new fighter, new tanks. Those are just propaganda articles that have nothing to do with reality.

    In 2021 they will probably be busy with the 5th or 6th gorshkov and still trying to draw the super-gorshkov ...

    A carrier in 2021... seriously ? are you connected to the reality ?

    And you pretend to look serious calling "propaganda" the Russian Maritime Doctrile of 2015?

    Do not have you the Su-57 in front of you? The first unit is done and the serial production will begin when Russia wants.

    And you are known because of?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:49 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Even if Russia laws down a supercarrier by 2025 there is no fing way it will be in service within five years.

    That is beyond delusional thinking, at the rate the Russians build ships it will take them more than a decade to make the dam thing.

    If russia does law down a supercarrier it will not be until past 2030, however recently the MoD has said they are focusing on more Kuz style warships.

    So it seems the Russian supercarrier fantasy is dead unless something new comes out and we will see if it does.

    Your problem is that according to the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, the first aircraft carrier can be laid down in 2021 or 2022. Or even before.

    Do not pretend to look serious talking about non-sense articles as if would be true, and a confirmation of your "predictions", while you call the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 "delusional thinking".

    Russians aren't laying down a carrier in 2021 or 2022, they made that clear they themselves said this.

    Or is the russians intoxicators now.

    False. Link?

    The Russians in their rearmament program the next phase have said the biggest thing they will law down surface wise is a Super Gork.

    you are one delusional SOB

    2015? and just how many planes, tanks and ships did they say they would have by this time? more then half of it hasn't been been built but you expect them to adhere to old ass plans with currently the russians have said generally what the navy will be getting for the next 6 years and no carrier or DD is amoung it.

    You got problems man
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:59 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Russians in their rearmament program the next phase have said the biggest thing they will law down surface wise is a Super Gork.

    you are one delusional SOB

    You had in front of your nose what the Russian officials said because they cited almost textually the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015. This time with bigger size for you.

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    But do not forget to read the following three paragraphs, because it is also important, and it is also what they are saying. Do not forget to see how the first paragraph you heard about, is of limited timeline. "In the first phase" means 2015-2020.

    The alone real project of new generation destroyer, the second paragraph is talking about, is your hated Project 23560 Lider.

    And the alone real project of new muttirole aircraft carrier, the third and the fourth paragraphs are talking about, is your hated Project 23000 Shtorm.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:30 pm


    Yo moron, it's been three years since 2015

    Check the fucking calendar

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    Isos

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:32 pm

    And you pretend to look serious calling "propaganda" the Russian Maritime Doctrile of 2015?

    Do not have you the Su-57 in front of you? The first unit is done and the serial production will begin when Russia wants.

    And you are known because of?

    Yeah it got its official engines, oups I mean it got its 1 ENGINE last week and is testing it right now ... and for you Su-57 is ready. I've also never heard of testing weapons from weapon bays but it's ok if you say we see that in front of us it means it is ready.

    I assume in your head things are as easy as putting in service a 100 million $ fighter on a 10 billion $ carrier as fast as you draw it on a paper but in reality it doesn't happen like that.

    Russian Maritime Doctrile of 2015 represent what they want not what they will get. That's just bullshit made by Ministry of defence to put pressure on the government but when you want a carrier first you check with the Ministry of Economy and according to what they say (most probably in the next 10 years they will laugh at Choigu when he will ask for the money for a carrier) and then they discuss the real needs and then start studies about that and then present many concept and then chose one and then choose a shipyard ...

    You don't just ask 2 or 3 high ranked military guys and put an article on sputnik and build it.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:It will be much bigger than Yak-141, that thing was a miniature with miniscule wings. New one should be roughly size of F-35 or even larger.

    VTOL/STOVLs are not any more fragile than other jets. Especially if they are designed properly. And today you have computers to handle complicated stuff. Russia already developed system that lands jets on Kuznetzov in autopilot mode. VTOL/STOVL fly-by-wire should be no problem in comparison.

    They will not be dealing with hostile ships. Their purpose will be do handle Syria style ops against low threat enemies that are not worth wasting expensive cruise missiles on.

    If enemy can afford actual warships then it's a completely different type of war, one where surface fleets are irelevant.

    We will have to wait and see, but the Yak-43 is the latest we know of.
    Also, i doubt it's wing will be too big, since it might get in the way when taking off vertically, although i am no expert in aerodynamics.

    Perhaps fragile wasn't the best word, generally though a VTOL will without a doubt have more critical points then Conventional jets.
    Uhhm ok, what's auto-pilot got to do with this.

    That depends, which ones more expensive, fuel, maintenance, pilot, all to drop some dumb bombs?
    A better case is that the aircraft could be used for long term bombings, since Cruise missiles would be limited in number.

    Forces with limited naval capabilities will generally try to offset this by having anti-ship missiles launched from long ranged aircrafts.
    Ergo, the need for better air-defense (the new proposed navalised Tors look promising).

    But yet again there is the Ka-52, and the question of whether such long range deep strike missions should be handled  by cruise missiles.
    IMO such capabilities can be useful, but looking at the range of the Ka-52, i wonder whether it's necessary.
    The Ka-52 has a range of around 500km so half that for RTB and we have around 250km.


    At least we found a positive reason for VTOL.
    That wont get pilots slaughtered.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:47 pm

    wow...dude that doctrine isn't happening the Russians have shown that. It was designed at a different time during a different situation.

    It's not RL and the MOD knows this which is why the biggest ship they will lay down in the until what 2024 is an 8k ship, they themselves said this not me.

    You are at this point some delusional kid, carrier by 2021 lawls.

    Let me know when that happens in fantasy land.

    But hey guys it seems now the Russian navy is joining the Intoxcator ranks.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:23 pm

    The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 includes explicitly the naval variant of the Ka-52 and a reference to the landing ships that use them.

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russias-new-maritime-doctrine.391893/

    Surface fleet

    In the first phase Russia's Admiral Gorshkov-class (Project 22350) frigates and Steregushchy-class (Project 20380) corvettes and their variants will become the core of the surface force for long- and short-range operations.

    In the mid term a new-generation destroyer featuring advanced strike, air defence and missile defence capabilities will become the navy's main oceangoing ship. Between 2021 and 2030 a new class of modular multirole surface combat ship will be designed and enter series production as the successor to the Project 22350/20380 classes. It is envisaged that these will be armed with novel weapon systems and will carry unmanned vehicles of various sorts.

    The marine rapid-response force is intended to be capable of conducting missions in the maritime, aerial and land domains in any part of the world. For this, new aircraft carriers will be the core of its capability, along with multirole landing ships. Work to design a new class of Russian aircraft carrier is to be completed before 2020, with construction and entry into service planned for the second phase of the doctrine (2021-2030).

    Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

    Naval Aviation

    For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

    Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

    The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.

    Unfortunately for the reality deniers, that try to distort the reality, Russia says all this clearly. And not only that, the references of the Russian Maritime Doctrine 2015 are becoming real projects, that are in early stages still, but will become realy by the end of 2030.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:39 pm

    It would be nice to see the 2015 doctrine critics present some actual proof that the doctrine and associated development
    programs have been dropped. Russia's financial situation is very far from the state where it has "no choice but to do without".
    That is just NATO sanctions propaganda self-delusion.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:33 pm

    Isos wrote:
    And you pretend to look serious calling "propaganda" the Russian Maritime Doctrile of 2015?

    Do not have you the Su-57 in front of you? The first unit is done and the serial production will begin when Russia wants.

    And you are known because of?

    Yeah it got its official engines, oups I mean it got its 1 ENGINE last week and is testing it right now ... and for you Su-57 is ready. I've also never heard of testing weapons from weapon bays but it's ok if you say we see that in front of us it means it is ready.

    I assume in your head things are as easy as putting in service a 100 million $ fighter on a 10 billion $ carrier as fast as you draw it on a paper but in reality it doesn't happen like that.

    Russian Maritime Doctrile of 2015 represent what they want not what they will get. That's just bullshit made by Ministry of defence to put pressure on the government but when you want a carrier first you check with the Ministry of Economy and according to what they say (most probably in the next 10 years they will laugh at Choigu when he will ask for the money for a carrier) and then they discuss the real needs and then start studies about that and then present many concept and then chose one and then choose a shipyard ...

    You don't just ask 2 or 3 high ranked military guys and put an article on sputnik and build it.

    I agree with you 'intoxicators' for the most part (there will certainly be no supercarriers before 2030), but to be fair that is just - what kvs would call 'propaganda' - about the Su-57.

    The new engine was never supposed to be ready before 2020, right? The first 50-60 PAK-FAs (2016-20) were planned to be equipped with the current engine. So the engine program is either only minimally behind the original schedule or not at all and the fact that they already flight tested it on a Su-57 this year is actually a huge success.

    And isn't that "weapon bays have no been tested" a pure BS myth? Why would that be the case, makes no sense? They have already built many prototypes, with very considerable improvements compared to the first one and it really does seem that the plane is almost ready for production at this point, i.e. next year (2018).

    So Su-57 was never supposed to be ready earlier than 2016 and even then with the current engines, let's not exaggerate.

    I have to admit that the Russian media and Sputnik seem to have really fucked up in many ways with their overhyping, which was totally unnecessary.

    The talk about over 2,000 Armatas by 2020, which was probably a mistranslation to begin with (they meant over 2,000 'modern' tanks, not only T-14s).

    Storm carriers and Lider cruisers any day now... It was obvious from the beginning that those "projects" were never realistic before the mid-2020s at the earliest. It was always necessary to build smaller ships first before those behemoths.

    Not that most people understand that or understand military procurements and numbers in general (including many of the journalists who write those articles lol), so now it's just an embarrassment. Huge hype about Lider probably 15 years before the first ship is even LAUNCHED. Great job guys, fucking idiots...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:06 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:................
    We will have to wait and see, but the Yak-43 is the latest we know of.
    Also, i doubt it's wing will be too big, since it might get in the way when taking off vertically, although i am no expert in aerodynamics....

    Forget any Soviet design or concept, way too much time passed for that to be reused. Su-57 was fresh platform. This one will be too (with off-the-shelf components used where possible of course).

    I am however pretty sure that it will have much bigger wings than both Yak-38 and Yak-141. Those had some hilariously tiny wings, like F-104 Starfighter tribute band...



    AlfaT8 wrote:....That depends, which ones more expensive, fuel, maintenance, pilot, all to drop some dumb bombs?...

    They'll be dropping more than just dumb bombs.

    Carrier aviation is always expensive, no going around that. But with this approach they want to end up with larger number of smaller vessels instead of small number of larger vessels.

    More flexibility and less expenditures .



    AlfaT8 wrote:........But yet again there is the Ka-52, and the question of whether such long range deep strike missions should be handled  by cruise missiles.
    IMO such capabilities can be useful, but looking at the range of the Ka-52, i wonder whether it's necessary.
    The Ka-52 has a range of around 500km so half that for RTB and we have around 250km............



    Ka-52s are great and they will definitely be using them. I mean the moment first ship with any king of flat deck is finished they will be first thing on board. And they have already been used in combat from Kuznetzov.

    But jets simply have more speed, range, payload and can fly higher than helicopters.



    kvs wrote:It would be nice to see the 2015 doctrine critics present some actual proof that the doctrine and associated development programs have been dropped..........

    Dropping or altering plans is not a bad thing. USSR was inflexible and stubborn and look what happened to them.

    As for topic of supercarriers, military just ordered design of STOVL/VTOL fighter jet. You don't do that if you plan on building a supercarrier.

    And why would they want one? They spent huge amount of time, money and effort into making entire concept of supercarrier obsolete and they finally cracked it. Ordering supercarrier now after all that hassle would be plain stupid.

    Like I just said, they want to end up with larger number of smaller vessels instead of small number of larger vessels.



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...............
    But hey guys it seems now the Russian navy is joining the Intoxcator ranks.

    They are not sending us their best... lol1 lol1 lol1
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:26 am

    As for topic of supercarriers, military just ordered design of STOVL/VTOL fighter jet. You don't do that if you plan on building a supercarrier.

    You mean like the US who has super carriers and also AV-8II harriers and F-35B aircraft?

    VSTOL aircraft fill a very small niche... the biggest problem for the Russians is that they are generally not fast enough to be real interceptors or fighters... they are best used in small carriers that are not really the best at anything.

    Like I just said, they want to end up with larger number of smaller vessels instead of small number of larger vessels.

    They would be better off with a mix of small and large vessels than with mainly small weak vulnerable vessels.

    Or do you think they should give up on the Su-35s and PAK FAs and just have thousands of upgraded Yak-130s in a fighter version?

    In terms of cost it will be cheaper but any decent enemy would obliterate your force fairly rapidly.

    I am sure you could argue Russia does not need any better because if someone defeats their air force they can retaliate with nukes... not really practical though is it?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:28 am

    As for topic of supercarriers, military just ordered design of STOVL/VTOL fighter jet. You don't do that if you plan on building a supercarrier.

    The military also ordered the Yak-41 and after tests it was cancelled.

    Russia does not need a super carrier.

    A kuznetsov size carrier would be all they needed with its design modernised and optimised and its propulsion and sensors and weapons completely upgraded and new aircraft it would be a much more powerful vessel.

    They do need larger ships like cruisers to support a few carriers... but not for a decade or more.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:21 am

    They would be better off with a mix of small and large vessels than with mainly small weak vulnerable vessels.

    They would be best off with dozens of huge supercarriers and hundreds of nuclear battlecruisers

    But can they build and pay for even fraction of it? Hell no, not even close.


    ...Or do you think they should give up on the Su-35s and PAK FAs and just have thousands of upgraded Yak-130s in a fighter version?....

    Nice off-topic deflection, what the fuck does this have to do with anything?


    ...I am sure you could argue Russia does not need any better because if someone defeats their air force they can retaliate with nukes... not really practical though is it?

    Not practical? Only a complete moron would say something like this.

    Nukes are THE MOST PRACTICAL tool of war ever conceived.

    They kept the peace for decades and will do so most likely for centuries.

    Nukes are only reason why Russia still exists. Nukes are what keept that country from being ripped into tiny pieces back in the 90s.

    Only absolute idiot does not see their infinite value.

    Tree-huggers may whine, liberals may squeal, but nukes are one thing you can ALWAYS rely on to get the job done and keep you safe.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Yo moron, it's been three years since 2015

    Check the fucking calendar


    Waiting about this.

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    Re: Russian STOVL/VTOL fighter development

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