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    Varshavyanka vs Type 212

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    Which is the superior submarine?

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:29 am

    Basically in the title. I'm not really sure what to make of it. If these 2 submarines faced each other, which would detect the other first and which would be able to destroy first.  Will anti-sub klubs be a game changer here?
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    Isos

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:19 am

    In 1 vs 1 AIP is not that necessary. It helps being submerged longer to escape helicopters trying to find the submarine and not expose itself to radar because it doesn't need to recharge the batteries on the surface for longer time. But against another submarine it is not that much needed.

    Kalibr are not game changer but they allow you to lunch rocket torpedo at 50km near the enemy sub so that he will have just 1 minute to do something against it. A normal torpedo would need 20-30 minutes to reach the target at max range and it would be detected at the lunch if it goes at max speed (really Noisy in this case) so the enemy will have 20 min to do Something against it.

    They also allow you to lunch cruise missiles at the target while it is in the port.

    In terms of torpedos, Russia has many type of them with many different seekers and some don't use acoustics so it's hard to jam them if not impossible. Shkval is said to be improve so that it can be guided but who knows if it works against a submarine. They can always lunch them in desparate situation if they are near the enemy and hope it touch it because it is really fast and if you lunch in the good direct a hit can occure.

    German torpedo was used by an Argentinian sub in the Malvinas and didn't worked (sabotage, malfunction ...?).

    They should be similar in terms of detection/stealth so the one with better crew wins. As russia has much more experiences those 70 last years in submarines because they operated like 1000 of them, they know the sea better and have better maps of acousting areas where the detection can be more easy because of the salinity and temperature of the water.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:39 am

    Isos wrote:In 1 vs 1 AIP is not that necessary. It helps being submerged longer to escape helicopters trying to find the submarine and not expose itself to radar because it doesn't need to recharge the batteries on the surface for longer time. But against another submarine it is not that much needed.

    Kalibr are not game changer but they allow you to lunch rocket torpedo at 50km near the enemy sub so that he will have just 1 minute to do something against it. A normal torpedo would need 20-30 minutes to reach the target at max range and it would be detected at the lunch if it goes at max speed (really Noisy in this case) so the enemy will have 20 min to do Something against it.

    They also allow you to lunch cruise missiles at the target while it is in the port.

    In terms of torpedos, Russia has many type of them with many different seekers and some don't use acoustics so it's hard to jam them if not impossible. Shkval is said to be improve so that it can be guided but who knows if it works against a submarine. They can always lunch them in desparate situation if they are near the enemy and hope it touch it because it is really fast and if you lunch in the good direct a hit can occure.

    German torpedo was used by an Argentinian sub in the Malvinas and didn't worked (sabotage, malfunction ...?).

    They should be similar in terms of detection/stealth so the one with better crew wins. As russia has much more experiences those 70 last years in submarines because they operated like 1000 of them, they know the sea better and have better maps of acousting areas where the detection can be more easy because of the salinity and temperature of the water.



    I thought AIP significantly reduced noise level.

    Do you think a varshavyanka will be able to detect a type 212 at 50-30km in the first place?

    Does anyone know how effective are german anti-torp sub decoys compared to Russian ones?

    Also its unwise to rely on the hope that german crews have less experience or that they have unreliable torpedos that may or may not have been fixed.
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    Isos

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:15 pm

    I thought AIP significantly reduced noise level.

    Do you think a varshavyanka will be able to detect a type 212 at 50-30km in the first place?

    Does anyone know how effective are german anti-torp sub decoys compared to Russian ones?

    Also its unwise to rely on the hope that german crews have less experience or that they have unreliable torpedos that may or may not have been fixed.

    No it doesn't reduce noise lvl. It only creates oxygene so that the crew has enough of it for longer periode or use it to use the diesel engines to recharge the batteries underwater so it's somehow more stealth because it doesn't go at surface (even if I have a doubt about for this, but using engines makes the subs more Noisy).

    It participate to to reduce the noise lvl in that the sub doesn't have to surface so it won't be detected by radar or sonars while operating its engines.

    50km is unlikly. The battle would occure near the costs where there are lot of parasite noises because of the small depth. The range of detection would be in the 15km. Real values will never be said by anyone. Even if one knows them he won't say to the enemy that he know everything about its sub so that the enemy won't change anything.

    The story about the german torpedo was to tell you that those myths of western ultra Advanced tech,ology are just myths and in fact they are not better than any other country.

    Experience is really important. Specially for critical situation. When you know a enemy sub is chasing you, your crew will be stressed as fuck and human errors like those moments. If they are not used to do their work again and again they will have hard time to do it when they will be in critical situation.

    Germans were never a naval power. Now almost all their subs are not in service. I doubt they put lot of money for naval technologies. I would put my money on Kilo and specially improved kilo. Russia from Kaliningrad and from Severodvinsk can monitor their movement pretty easily and train against them easily because they know where to find them so they can see if their sonars can pick the 212 easily. They do this with all western subs. They even waited for a british SSBM near its base to record it's noise and have it in their database.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:09 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I thought AIP significantly reduced noise level.

    Do you think a varshavyanka will be able to detect a type 212 at 50-30km in the first place?

    Does anyone know how effective are german anti-torp sub decoys compared to Russian ones?

    Also its unwise to rely on the hope that german crews have less experience or that they have unreliable torpedos that may or may not have been fixed.

    No it doesn't reduce noise lvl. It only creates oxygene so that the crew has enough of it for longer periode or use it to use the diesel engines to recharge the batteries underwater so it's somehow more stealth because it doesn't go at surface (even if I have a doubt about for this, but using engines makes the subs more Noisy).

    It participate to to reduce the noise lvl in that the sub doesn't have to surface so it won't be detected by radar or sonars while operating its engines.

    50km is unlikly. The battle would occure near the costs where there are lot of parasite noises because of the small depth. The range of detection would be in the 15km. Real values will never be said by anyone. Even if one knows them he won't say to the enemy that he know everything about its sub so that the enemy won't change anything.

    The story about the german torpedo was to tell you that those myths of western ultra Advanced tech,ology are just myths and in fact they are not better than any other country.

    Experience is really important. Specially for critical situation. When you know a enemy sub is chasing you, your crew will be stressed as fuck and human errors like those moments. If they are not used to do their work again and again they will have hard time to do it when they will be in critical situation.

    Germans were never a naval power. Now almost all their subs are not in service. I doubt they put lot of money for naval technologies. I would put my money on Kilo and specially improved kilo. Russia from Kaliningrad and from Severodvinsk can monitor their movement pretty easily and train against them easily because they know where to find them so they can see if their sonars can pick the 212 easily. They do this with all western subs. They even waited for a british SSBM near its base to record it's noise and have it in their database.

    I though AIP meant that the sub was powered by a sterling engine underwater, making it much quieter than battery or diesel propulsion.

    So anti-sub missiles for the varshavyanka are impractical and only useful for SSN hunting?

    I'm not saying that german torps are great, just saying that we have to assume that they're equal to Russian 533mm torps.


    AFAIK all the 212s are in service. Its the army and air force that's suffering.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am

    Hahahahahaha... a sterling engine is an engine... like in a car.... to run it underwater you pump oxygen and fuel into it and you try to contain its exhaust fumes.

    It would be slightly quieter than a huge diesel engine but not quieter than batteries.

    A diesel electric has the honour of being a noisy SOB when running diesel engines and the quietest thing in the sea running on batteries... and that includes nuke powered subs that need to keep their reactors cool so still make more noise than an SSK on batteries.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:36 am

    GarryB wrote:Hahahahahaha... a sterling engine is an engine... like in a car.... to run it underwater you pump oxygen and fuel into it and you try to contain its exhaust fumes.

    It would be slightly quieter than a huge diesel engine but not quieter than batteries.

    A diesel electric has the honour of being a noisy SOB when running diesel engines and the quietest thing in the sea running on batteries... and that includes nuke powered subs that need to keep their reactors cool so still make more noise than an SSK on batteries.
    Wrong. The sterling engine doesn't use propellant. It exclusively works on the temperature differential. The higher the differential, the more powerful it is. Its extremely useful in very cold waters like the baltic and its completely silent.
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    Isos

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:38 am

    I though AIP meant that the sub was powered by a sterling engine underwater, making it much quieter than battery or diesel propulsion

    Actually that means nothing. It's just the idea of extending the underwater endurence of diesel/electric subs. You can achieve this by douzens of different ways. You can find these information on the net.

    French AIP are for exemple the most Advanced ones because they create the oxygene from water and the chinese (if I'm not saying total BS) are just oxygene compressed and stored then released so that it can be breath.

    AIP must be well know before used because if there is like 2 times more oxygene than in normal air it becomes toxic for human.

    So anti-sub missiles for the varshavyanka are impractical and only useful for SSN hunting?

    Why ? You can lunch it at 15km it's still faster than torpedo.

    I'm not saying that german torps are great, just saying that we have to assume that they're equal to Russian 533mm torps.

    Yes and no because russians use many type of torpedo with different seekers. At least they have many types I don't know which ones are loaded in the subs.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Varshavyanka vs Type 212

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:50 pm

    The Varshavyanka will win without having to fire a shot.

    https://www.rt.com/news/413483-germany-submarines-out-of-service/

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