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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:24 pm

    MOSCOW, Dec 24 - RIA News. Four regular regiments of S-400 air defense systems are to be adopted by the Russian army in 2020, said Army Chief Sergei Shoigu on  Tuesday.

    https://ria.ru/20191224/1562777090.html
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm

    The Ministry of Defense called the timing of serial deliveries of the S-500 system

    The department said that deliveries will begin in 2025


    MOSCOW, December 28. / TASS /. Preliminary tests of the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system will begin in 2020, and the start of serial deliveries is scheduled for 2025. This was announced on Saturday by Russian Deputy Minister of Defense Alexei Krivoruchko in an interview with the newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda .

    "Next year, it is planned to begin preliminary tests of the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system, the first production model of which is scheduled for delivery in 2025," the deputy minister said.

    At the end of April, the Minister of Industry and Trade of Russia Denis Manturov said that the work of the S-500 system is at the final stage. Earlier, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reported that the supply of this system to the troops will begin in 2020.


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7440609

    Serial deliveries in 2025 no comments, if this is true fuck all this shit.
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    Post  nero on Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:28 pm

    dino00 wrote:Serial deliveries in 2025 no comments, if this is true fuck all this shit.
    Why exactly is this a surprise for you?

    For comparison:


    • T-14 has been produced since 2015, though there hasn't been real serial deliveries. It will likely start getting deployed in 2025-2030.
    • Su-57 has been produced since around 2010 and will unlikely see real serial deliveries until 2024 or even later.
    • S-400 system started testing in 1999, though was only deployed in 2007.
    • Pantsir-S1 finished development in 1995, started production in 2008 and was only deployed to the troops in 2012.


    S-500 production only started in 2019. Serial deliveries to the aerospace defense forces are not going to start before it is fully tested.

    I believe the planned deadline of 2025 is quite ambitious, to be honest as such a system (mobile anti-ICBM air defense) has never been deployed before. Another quite obvious problem is the fact that many of these new systems will become available at mostly the same time, in which case the Russian military would have to either increase their budget, or prolong the procurement of such systems to a wider time-frame.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:06 pm

    Probably not working to expectations so they are prolonging potential delivery date of production models.

    Or it may come out sooner. I trust the defence minister over deputy defence minister imo. Who knows.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:38 pm

    We have zero information about the timelines of the missiles it will be using. It cannot be assumed that everything is ready now
    and so any "delay" is a fail. The Su-57 is not a fail simply because it doesn't have the final model of the engine it is supposed
    to be equipped with. It makes an infinite amount of sense to deploy systems into the real world in stages allowing for natural
    debugging. Cramming the development into one "final release" is merely a choice, not a necessity and puts all the eggs in
    one basket. Given the pattern of Russian missile development over the last 30 years, it is an ongoing process and not tied
    to particular projects like the S-400 and S-500. So the missile characteristics are actually driving the design choices of
    their launchers.

    For all we know we may get an S-600 system before 2030 based on missile design advances.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:08 am

    kvs wrote:We have zero information about the timelines of the missiles it will be using.   It cannot be assumed that everything is ready now
    and so any "delay" is a fail.   The Su-57 is not a fail simply because it doesn't have the final model of the engine it is supposed
    to be equipped with.   It makes an infinite amount of sense to deploy systems into the real world in stages allowing for natural
    debugging.   Cramming the development into one "final release" is merely a choice, not a necessity and puts all the eggs in
    one basket.   Given the pattern of Russian missile development over the last 30 years, it is an ongoing process and not tied
    to particular projects like the S-400 and S-500.   So the missile characteristics are actually driving the design choices of
    their launchers.

    For all we know we may get an S-600 system before 2030 based on missile design advances.


    There seems to also be a split in information. There is Nudol and then there is S-500. I presume that with S-400 popularity and modularity and the fact that the 46N6 missile isn't in use and the other long range one (48N6) has ranges close to what 46N6 from tests mentioned in the past.

    There is a possibility that Nudol is taking priority over S-500 as Nudol also somewhat fills the roll of the S-500 does a bit (anti Ballistic missile and anti satellite). So it would fit in the layered system.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:29 am

    Timelines are given randomly at the start of any project. Even more when it is a totally new one.

    When it is the state that finance the project being late means being able to ask for more money.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:14 am

    Plans are estimates... and estimates are commonly wrong.

    To be honest the S-500 is a top tier system that is largely used to shoot down ICBM warheads and SLBM warheads.

    I suspect the top model S-400 missiles can already shoot down SLBM warheads and anything less than an ICBM warhead... it can deal with targets moving at almost 5km/s for goodness sake...

    They will also be working hard to develop a naval version of the missile and will currently likely be working to integrate the missile into the UKSK-M launch system... if they said that wasn't going to be ready before 2025 who would care because they wont have cruisers or CVNs that would carry it in service before then anyway.

    It will take as long as it takes... take solace in the fact that the US equivalent wont be ready until... whoops... there isn't a US equivalent mobile ABM system... the closest equivalent is a naval system...

    In terms of effect on an actual battlefield, Sosna, and Verba and Igla and Pantsir and TOR and BUK and S-350 and S-400 and S-300V4 will be rather more significant and effective.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:55 am

    Could also be that in this testing phase they equip 2 - 3 regiments with the system and declare it operational in 2025. Just as example, in the interview the General mentioned the Onyx system "which tests have now been completed". There are a lot of ships/coastal defence units equipped with this missile.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:37 am

    Yes, regarding the Onyx, I was amused to hear him say a missile that has been in service for over a decade is now in service, but I suspect he is referring to a new model with the new fuel with mach 5 plus speed that they have been talking about.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:47 am

    Then he would have said a new version of Onyx. It is a good example how much western and russian weapons development differs. In Russia it is fairly common for a weapon system to be "used by the troops" withput being officially in service, which requires a lot of documents to be signed and so on. In the end the defence Minister or even the president has to sign an order to put something "into service".
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 am

    Or maybe was he talking about ship launched Oniks which isn't really deployed on many ships. All the launches we saw were from Bastion. UKSK was used mostly with lacm kalibr.

    There were tests not long ago on last Gorshkov class ship with oniks.
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:57 am

    suspect the top model S-400 missiles can already shoot down SLBM warheads and anything less than an ICBM warhead... it can deal with targets moving at almost 5km/s for goodness sake... wrote:

    MIRV warhead with SLBM fly the same as MIRV with ICBM over 6 km / s. The S-400 is not able to capture such targets. Only 53T6M can capture some RV from SLBM / SLBM.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:07 am

    Then he would have said a new version of Onyx.

    Would he?

    Just read a report about a brand new silent rifle that is entering service, which got me quite excited till I looked at the photo and saw that it was an updated AS suppressed assault rifle in 9x39mm calibre that has been in service since the late 1980s... they don't always differentiate upgraded models with new models...

    Or maybe was he talking about ship launched Oniks which isn't really deployed on many ships.

    Before they were launching land attack missiles at targets in Syria, the Onyx was the main anti ship missile for the UKSK launchers... its export variants... Yakhont and Brahmos also being deployed overseas too. The main supersonic anti ship model Kalibre took a while to get working right...

    There were tests not long ago on last Gorshkov class ship with oniks.

    The speeds described suggest upgraded onyx...

    MIRV warhead with SLBM fly the same as MIRV with ICBM over 6 km / s.

    Speed is determined by distance flown and also radically effected by flight time inside the atmosphere, where most slow down very rapidly.

    Think of your hand moving through water... the harder and faster you move your hand the harder the water pushes back... now imagine moving your hand down at high speed through air onto a surface of water.... think of that slap when it hits the water... that is what happens to objects in space entering the atmosphere....

    A depressed trajectory flight of an SLBM at a target that is not 6,000km away wont be travelling at the same speed as a normal trajectory launch to targets more than 6,000km away.

    The addition of the S-500 to Russian air defence units will likely improve the detection and tracking capabilities and allow more difficult targets to be engaged.

    It likely wont be that long before scramjet powered SAMs are developed as it is easier to make a scramjet powered missile travel long distances at high speed than one powered by rocket motor.

    The S-400 is not able to capture such targets.

    Says whom?

    The 4.8km/s target speed limit is for the export model of the S-400 and Turkey has already confirmed in its testing that the system they have exceeds the performances stated...

    Only 53T6M can capture some RV from SLBM / SLBM.

    The Soviets and Russians had a range of ABM systems in service for quite some time... and they are adding to this capacity all the time.
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    Post  Arrow on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:26 am

    eed is determined by distance flown and also radically effected by flight time inside the atmosphere, where most slow down very rapidly. wrote:

    If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

    It likely wont be that long before scramjet powered SAMs are developed as it is easier to make a scramjet powered missile travel long distances at high speed than one powered by rocket motor wrote:

    Of course, let them be on Zircon with scramjet ships first. For now there are delays of all weapons. S-500, 955A, T-14, T-50. Zircon will be on ships maybe in 2030. Another test either canceled or failed.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:35 pm

    If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

    They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

    Of course, let them be on Zircon with scramjet ships first. For now there are delays of all weapons. S-500, 955A, T-14, T-50. Zircon will be on ships maybe in 2030. Another test either canceled or failed.

    Hahahaha... I remember in the mid 1980s NATO was talking about their new anti armour missile... the Wasp... it was going to be a mini missile that fighters could carry in bulk... about 7 missiles per weapon pylon to counter Soviet numerical tank superiority.... the air defence vehicle Mauler... the Sgt York... a mish mash upgrade of the Duster... a new replacement for the M109 artillery vehicle, several replacements for the Abrams and Bradley, and lets not get started about all the programmes to replace the M16, let alone the M60 machine gun and the M2 HMG... but lets not dwell in the past... the current Zumwalt destroyer is a dog, as is the LCS programme which after about 35 billion being spent on the two programmes the latter is going to be replaced with a very Gorshkov like frigate... fancy that... and to fix the F-35 debacle they are talking about an upgraded F-15... geeze... will they call it Su-35?

    And how about a 13 billion dollar aircraft carrier whose lifts and catapults don't work amongst many other things...

    The difference is that Russia is able to delay the Su-57 and the T-14 and the S-500 because the MiG-35 and Su-35 and the T-90AM and of course the S-400 and S-350 are all in production and every bit good enough for the job for the next decade anyway... you really can't say the same for the Americans... they needed new frigates and new destroyers and a new carrier, and the aging fighter fleet that was scaled back because they expected to have a lot more operational F-35s in service... but most F-35s are not operational, so I guess they are saving money there too.

    And while we are at it... why are they paying 120 million per F-35 when the best and most capable airforce in the world (Israel) can't even fly over Syrian territory with these invisible bringers of death... F-16s can launch stand off weapons from Lebenon much cheaper than they can.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:43 am

    Arrow wrote:

    If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.



    Of course, let them be on Zircon with scramjet ships first. For now there are delays of all weapons. S-500, 955A, T-14, T-50. Zircon will be on ships maybe in 2030. Another test either canceled or failed.

    Provide source where it drops to mach 2 - 3 I n atmosphere.

    Provide source where Zircon is delayed.

    And uh, Borei A isn't delayed at all. Current ship in trials and others being laid down already. So where did you get that bullshit from?

    I read Russian news in Russian. Nothing of sort is said that you claim.

    Stop making shit up and saying it's fact. Cause it isn't
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:18 am

    If avangard's speed drops down so much in atmosphere then older MIRV are even slower. Buk m2 should be able to intercept them. The fact that both russia and USA use some ICBM like ABMs armed with nuclear warheads to defend their cities since cold war is a proof that you write dumb things.
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    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 am

    GarryB wrote:They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

    Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

    https://twitter.com/SimonHoejbjerg/status/1211582726991691777?s=20
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    Post  Arrow on Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:09 pm

    f avangard's speed drops down so much in atmosphere then older MIRV are even slower wrote:

    No MIRV flies at a much higher altitude. It enters the atmosphere only in the terminal phase at the end of the flight. Most of the way flies in space.
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    Post  eridan on Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:20 pm

    I am trying to find a paper/brochure/official quote on the max distance of TELs (or TEL group) from the engagement radar for S-400.
    Can't seem to find it. I can find that the command post can be 100 km away from the radar, but nothing about TEL to radar distance.

    Which is quite strange as I could find such distances for Patriot (post 2001 variant) and SAMP/T without too much hassle.

    Can anyone help?
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    Post  triphosgene on Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They already stated that during tests it accelerated in the atmosphere from mach 26 to mach 27 so it is clearly powered and if it was a simple target then the US could care less about it... which is the opposite of their actual reaction...

    Did you see this recent Twitter thread related to interception from a Danish government employee who heads their BMD project ? Do take a look.

    https://twitter.com/SimonHoejbjerg/status/1211582726991691777?s=20

    Mr. Petersen's reasoning is valid for a purely balistic target only. He actually confirms this fact in one of his replies.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:00 pm

    No amount of theorizing will make kinetic kill work. It was obsolete before it was even rendered in hardware. Even a minimal amount
    of non-ballistic trajectory behaviour in an ICBM is enough to make its effectiveness negligible. As Postol has been arguing for years.
    And such minimal non-ballistic ICBM characteristics have been implemented already in the 1970s. Avangaard is simply on a whole
    other plane of reality and totally immune to any kinetic kill interceptor. The Americans have been itching to ditch the INF treaty
    since the day they signed it (*) as it would make nuclear warheads on their "kinetic" kill interceptors illegal. Now they can upgrade their
    "invincible" junk to take out 1970s ICBMs with better hit ratios. As for Avangaard, they need to go back to the drawing board. But
    so far, all I hear is verbal diarrhea and trash talk about how the US is ahead of Russia in hypersonic technology with assorted blowhard
    retards like John Bolton actually claiming that Russia has stolen the technology. Drivel by morons for morons.

    (*) They signed the INF to get the comprador Gorby to scrap the RSD-10 Pioneer systems. Which he did with zeal.


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    Post  Azi on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:58 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.
    BULLSHIT!

    Reentry vehicle slows down at sea level to 4-9M...that's true. Depends on the shape of the reentry vehicle...first reentry vehicle were really slow, modern vehicle have a optimized aerodynamic shape. The speed in terminal phase before reentry into the atmosphere is MINIMUM 20M for EVERY reentry vehicle of an ICBM!

    The evolution of Avangard is NOT speed!!! The evolution is that it can maneuver extreme inside the atmosphere. Standard MIRV can only make small corrections, making it of course problematic for ABM systems, but not impossible. It's a hypersonic glide vehicle, not a simple reentry vehicle.

    Second point is that most warheads don't explode at ground level, most warheads explode in 3 km height...optimizing the the destruction of the blast and the heat.

    And yes...S-300 and S-400 can intercept reentry vehicle in the atmosphere, but the chance is far from good. The S-300 is the only air defense system able to carry nuclear warheads, beside standard ABM systems USSR and USA missile defense). By the way, even the Patriot System is able to intercept reentry vehicles, but the chance for Patriot Systems are very bad, because Patriot intercepts in the very very very last stage of flight, a few km before impact, so no chance if an atmospheric detonation occurs.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:43 am

    Arrow wrote:If so, Avangard, which flies most of the time in the atmosphere, slows down to 2-3M in the terminal phase, which is a very simple target.

    FFS, the idiotic crap spewing from this troll moron is making me lose the will to live.... Can we all pls just block this fuckwit and stop commenting on his stupid trashtalk and shitposts??????

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