Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 6588
    Points : 6655
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:00 pm

    Hole wrote:Better maps.


    Thank you.
    avatar
    Firebird

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1034
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty What safeguards are there against back-engineering/enemy assessment of export S400 etc?

    Post  Firebird on Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:05 pm

    Obviously Russia is now selling the S400 to Turkey. Its also selling it to some pretty shady 3rd world countries.
    So, I'm wondering what safeguards does Russia have in place to stop one or more of these systems getting into the hands of say, American engineers. Engineers who might try and back engineer it. Or might assess it with a view to making it less effective?

    Does each stystem get sent with Russian engineers to oversee this? Or is it more about processors shutting things down etc and advising of any tampering?
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5158
    Points : 5311
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:23 pm

    Firebird wrote:Obviously Russia is now selling the S400 to Turkey. Its also selling it to some pretty shady 3rd world countries.
    So, I'm wondering what  safeguards does Russia have in place to stop one or more of these systems getting into the hands of say, American engineers. Engineers who might try and back engineer it. Or might assess it with a view to making it less effective?

    Does each stystem get sent with Russian engineers to oversee this? Or is it more about processors shutting things down etc and advising of any tampering?

    This has been debated ad nauseam. You could always do yourself a favor by looking at the old threads, there's been a plethora of posts on this subject. All you need to know is that Yeltsin sold parts of the S-300V system to the US so they could improve the embarrassingly poor performing PAC-2 SAM. The end result: the creation of the PAC-3 SAM (mid-2000's), which has overall inferior characteristics to S-300P circa 1979. Even with access to Slovakian S-300's they failed to both develop tactics to defeat it proper, as well as failed to produce an analog on par with a system from the late 1970s.

    When you hear claims about the Federation being 30 years ahead of the US in SAM technology, it ain't exaggerated hyperbole, it's empirical fact!
    avatar
    nero

    Posts : 45
    Points : 45
    Join date : 2019-03-26

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  nero on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:33 pm

    Firebird wrote:Does each stystem get sent with Russian engineers to oversee this? Or is it more about processors shutting things down etc and advising of any tampering?
    This has been discussed before, but to sum it all up:

    They do not care. They offered to sell S-400 systems to the United States as well.

    To quote Patric Lang's friend:

    Any air defense engineer with a security clearance that isn't lying through his teeth will admit that Russia's air defense technology surpassed us in the 1950's and we've never been able to catch up. The systems thy have in place surrounding Moscow make our Patriot 3's look like fucking nerf guns.

    You can read the full post here

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:00 am

    Russia is selling these systems to India and China and already have these systems in service in their own country, so there are an enormous number of weak points where a CIA asshat with money could get all sorts of access to these systems.

    If Russia keeps them all locked in a little room and never lets them out the Americans might have trouble learning about them but the facts of the matter are that no matter what Russia does the US could probably find out... even if it means finding the makers and developers and offering them a 20 million dollar immigration package with a house and a job teaching US engineers and a hot wife if you want one...

    When it comes to technology the current state of the art is sitting on a lab bench... the stuff that has been in production and service for the last ten years is actually a bit old, and to fund getting the new ideas in to service you need to make and sell the old stuff... this is what they are doing.

    More to the point Turkey is probably going to show off its S-400s, but they would be shooting themselves in the foot to give away any of its secrets that would undermine its performance... and to be honest Turkey are not idiots and amateurs... a joint venture between Turkey and Russia building new SAMs would be a good thing for both countries, and cooperating in fighter aircraft would also benefit both countries in the way that cooperation between Russia and India led to cooperation with Thales of France and a few other companies in the west with Russia that led to other sales and cooperation and improvements.

    Obviously don't post secret stuff on the internet, but you really need proper tests and full analysis of a system and exactly how it works before you can begin to develop ways to defeat it... and remember these S-400s that Turkey has are on their own so any tactics the US might develop... Turkey knows will be handed over immediately to Israel... either on purpose or because the US would be riddled with Israel friendly spies.

    The result would be that Israel and the US can now defeat a few Turkish S-400s but can they be sure that the Russians are idiots and operate their S-400s on their own.

    Turkey likely wont even get a small fraction of all the systems the Russian S-400 comes with including jammers and decoys and probably TOR and S-350 and Pantsir-SM, as well as a range of mobile radar and other sensors that would operate together with it.

    Look at the difference an IADS has made to Syria... Turkey wont have anything like the IADS that Russia uses with theirs, and the system they likely do use will be familiar to the US anyway no doubt.

    I wouldn't worry at all... the US got an incomplete SA-12 system in the 1990s as mentioned... they are too arrogant to admit they can learn from someone else... how often does the US mention the F-35 is basically a Yak-41 with a lifting fan replacing the two lift jets? The main jet engine on the F-35 is a powerful afterburning turbofan... neither the british nor the americans had any experience in designing a thrust vectoring nozzle for such a powerful afterburning engine and they had to ask Yak for help. (no the engine on the Harrier does not have an afterburner of any kind).
    avatar
    Firebird

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1034
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Firebird on Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:36 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Firebird wrote:Obviously Russia is now selling the S400 to Turkey. Its also selling it to some pretty shady 3rd world countries.
    So, I'm wondering what  safeguards does Russia have in place to stop one or more of these systems getting into the hands of say, American engineers. Engineers who might try and back engineer it. Or might assess it with a view to making it less effective?

    Does each stystem get sent with Russian engineers to oversee this? Or is it more about processors shutting things down etc and advising of any tampering?

    This has been debated ad nauseam. You could always do yourself a favor by looking at the old threads, there's been a plethora of posts on this subject. All you need to know is that Yeltsin sold parts of the S-300V system to the US so they could improve the embarrassingly poor performing PAC-2 SAM. The end result: the creation of the PAC-3 SAM (mid-2000's), which has overall inferior characteristics to S-300P circa 1979. Even with access to Slovakian S-300's they failed to both develop tactics to defeat it proper, as well as failed to produce an analog on par with a system from the late 1970s.

    When you hear claims about the Federation being 30 years ahead of the US in SAM technology, it ain't exaggerated hyperbole, it's empirical fact!

    Well I've been on the forum for probably close to 10 yrs, and followed the S400 threads closely. I recall lots of "oh it doesn't matter if its sold".
    But I dont' recall any discussion on HOW someone would reverse engineer or assess it for ways to defeat it. I also know, its far better than rival systems.

    But the question is.. what does Russia do to protect its intellectual property and associated data here?
    Ofcourse metallurgy is very hard to back engineer. Computer systems are fairly hard to back engineer. But parts of it, in the wrong hands must have SOME benefit to enemies. I'm not saying Russia shouldn't sell S400. Just how is it constructed to make reverse engineering fruitless?
    avatar
    Firebird

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1034
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Firebird on Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Russia is selling these systems to India and China and already have these systems in service in their own country, so there are an enormous number of weak points where a CIA asshat with money could get all sorts of access to these systems.

    If Russia keeps them all locked in a little room and never lets them out the Americans might have trouble learning about them but the facts of the matter are that no matter what Russia does the US could probably find out... even if it means finding the makers and developers and offering them a 20 million dollar immigration package with a house and a job teaching US engineers and a hot wife if you want one...

    When it comes to technology the current state of the art is sitting on a lab bench... the stuff that has been in production and service for the last ten years is actually a bit old, and to fund getting the new ideas in to service you need to make and sell the old stuff... this is what they are doing.

    More to the point Turkey is probably going to show off its S-400s, but they would be shooting themselves in the foot to give away any of its secrets that would undermine its performance... and to be honest Turkey are not idiots and amateurs... a joint venture between Turkey and Russia building new SAMs would be a good thing for both countries, and cooperating in fighter aircraft would also benefit both countries in the way that cooperation between Russia and India led to cooperation with Thales of France and a few other companies in the west with Russia that led to other sales and cooperation and improvements.

    Obviously don't post secret stuff on the internet, but you really need proper tests and full analysis of a system and exactly how it works before you can begin to develop ways to defeat it... and remember these S-400s that Turkey has are on their own so any tactics the US might develop... Turkey knows will be handed over immediately to Israel... either on purpose or because the US would be riddled with Israel friendly spies.

    The result would be that Israel and the US can now defeat a few Turkish S-400s but can they be sure that the Russians are idiots and operate their S-400s on their own.

    Turkey likely wont even get a small fraction of all the systems the Russian S-400 comes with including jammers and decoys and probably TOR and S-350 and Pantsir-SM, as well as a range of mobile radar and other sensors that would operate together with it.

    Look at the difference an IADS has made to Syria... Turkey wont have anything like the IADS that Russia uses with theirs, and the system they likely do use will be familiar to the US anyway no doubt.

    I wouldn't worry at all... the US got an incomplete SA-12 system in the 1990s as mentioned... they are too arrogant to admit they can learn from someone else... how often does the US mention the F-35 is basically a Yak-41 with a lifting fan replacing the two lift jets? The main jet engine on the F-35 is a powerful afterburning turbofan... neither the british nor the americans had any experience in designing a thrust vectoring nozzle for such a powerful afterburning engine and they had to ask Yak for help. (no the engine on the Harrier does not have an afterburner of any kind).

    OK I angry with all that. Russia can protect its IP by dividing up the production process. It probably has dummy production processes and also dummy plans with "tags" that would identify the sources of leaks. (Usual stuff)
    But my question is also about something slightly different.
    Firstly, what makes S400 so good? Is it metallurgy in the engines? Is it the control systems that require electronics that are hard to hack/backengineer? Is it special exotic materials in the propulsion that no one else knows how to make?

    If Russia stationed its own engineers on constant shifts with every unit, it could largely prevent any back engineering. Perhaps locks on the control systems and radar would help? I'm just trying to figure out how it all works.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3758
    Points : 3746
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:41 pm

    Well I've been on the forum for probably close to 10 yrs, and followed the S400 threads closely. I recall lots of "oh it doesn't matter if its sold".
    But I dont' recall any discussion on HOW someone would reverse engineer or assess it for ways to defeat it. I also know, its far better than rival systems.

    To fully reverse engineer the system you need its software, or I should say softwares. They are probably developed in C or ada. With no transfert of technology in the contract you can't have the source codes which is what you need to make a copy. Reverse engineering such software would mean thousand of test including hundreds of missile launches to know what the software does when hardware is used and even then you won't have the same software because lot of things the software does are not seen by the operators. You will get a primitive software.

    Then you need the hardware. More easy to copy but you need tens of different companies that can make the different parts identically to the russian ones. Those are not toys, every company will have to invest in machineries and high tech to do so. Not many companies will have money and will to invest millions to copy just one system.


    Russia never gave neither the high tech production tools technology neither the softwares to anyone. That's why those s-300 copies China and Iran are producing are a joke. US won't do better.

    Making a system by yourself is far better than copying a S-400. At least you will know everything about it and then upgrade it and create 2, 3, 4 generation of the system. That's how Russian managed to have a s-400. They started first with primitive technology then created s75 then s200 then s300...


    But my question is also about something slightly different.
    Firstly, what makes S400 so good? Is it metallurgy in the engines? Is it the control systems that require electronics that are hard to hack/backengineer? Is it special exotic materials in the propulsion that no one else knows how to make?

    It is that soviet union analyzed the wars of vietnam and israeli-arab wars where its anti air systems were used. They found out what was bad about their systems and what was good. They then created the s-300.

    Now the plane fly at the same speed, same altitudes and use almost the same weaponery as during the vietnam war. The only new thing that change is stealth. To counter that they created the s-400 and its command posts allowing it to be linked to much more radars and much more shorads like pantsirs to deal with stealth aircraft and overwhelming attacks.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:36 am

    vFirstly, what makes S400 so good? Is it metallurgy in the engines? Is it the control systems that require electronics that are hard to hack/backengineer? Is it special exotic materials in the propulsion that no one else knows how to make?

    What makes the S-400 so good is that it was designed by intelligent people to defeat NATO... this isn't their first rodeo... their first weapons were fairly crude but usually effective enough... the other side used various countermeasures and tactics which were noted by the Soviets and they improved their designs because of those countermeasures and also because new targets had appeared.

    This continual iteration of upgrades and new designs have led to the S-400 with the experience of NATO actions in Kosovo and Iraq and everywhere else that the US has tried to trample on small countries.

    The difference is that Russia has all the pieces... for the US and NATO the games they have been playing have been against countries who might have 8 pawns and a king... and sometimes not much else. Russia has a full set of pieces and it knows how to play chess.

    Obviously that means that just buying an S-400 system wont magically make you safe from anything the US could do to you... that would just be silly, but if you buy the S-400 and fully integrate it into your IADS and you use it together with other assets as a team instead of a group on individuals then you have a really good chance of doing enough damage to the US military to either make them stop... or most importantly not even try in the first place.

    Look at Israel... they loved to fly over Syrian airspace and do as they pleased when they pleased... now they scurry amongst mountains in nearby countries lobbing rockets and bombs in the hope something gets through and they can claim to have penetrated the defences... absolutely pathetic considering this is the air force that has state of the art everything that bludgeons every country in the region to its submission using its air power.

    If Russia stationed its own engineers on constant shifts with every unit, it could largely prevent any back engineering. Perhaps locks on the control systems and radar would help? I'm just trying to figure out how it all works.

    Yeah, rather better to have those engineers looking at ways Israel is currently trying to counter the air defence systems in Syria right now and look at ways of closing those doors before they find them.... ie anti virus defence, anti jamming defence, decoys that work, and of course how to cope with local attempts to overwhelm the system...

    Let the FSB come down hard on any traitors and make a public spectacle of them and shame them selling out their country, but having a full set of design specs wont stop it from working unless there are some pretty serious problems with the design... and I suspect there isn't by now.

    The export versions wont be as potent as domestic systems and certainly will have a completely different set of codes and cyphers for every country that uses them.

    It is not in Chinas interests for the US to look at their S-400s just as it wont be in the interests of Turkey for the US to look at theirs because as I mentioned they will almost certainly hand that information over to Israel... and Turkey wont want that.

    Besides if having plans and secrets makes something useless look at the MiG-25P.... they were already advanced in developing the MiG-31 and weren't going to bother upgrading the MiG-25 until Belenko defected and then the Soviets got the MiG-25PD (P meaning interceptor and PD meaning upgraded interceptor), and it also happened with the MiG-31, where details of the aircraft were leaked to the west which resulted in a significant upgrade of the aircraft which radically improved the aircraft each time.

    It is not something you want to happen but it is not the end of the world either.

    Some American experts claim the T-34 is based on the Walter Christie tank... except that the Soviets bought Christies tank designs but that series was the BT series of tanks and Christies tank was the BT-1... by the BT-7 it was pretty much a different tank... the only recognisable part was the suspension that needed several upgrades because of the weight increases... a suspension that was also used on the T-34 but it was hardly a Christie designed tank.

    The US military weren't interested in Christies designs and didn't buy any AFAIK.

    If the T-34 is a Christie design because it used his suspension with several modifications over a series of other tanks, then an Abrams tank started out being british with a british 105mm rifled gun and british armour, to being a british west german tank with british armour and a german 120mm smoothbore gun... the armour went from being chobham armour to dorchester armour both paid for by the Iranian order they cancelled which gave them the Challenger tank.

    Very simply anything can be defeated and sticking with something long after it has matured and become a little out of date can be painful.  The Polikarpov fighters were state of the art when introduced but technology improved rapidly in the late 30s and early 40s and it rapidly became obsolete... what they should have done is build less Polikarpovs and T-26 light tanks and looked at new designs of the time and made more of those like the Yak-1 and T-34.

    Of course it is bloody easy for me to say that sitting on my arse on the other side of the planet with the history of the time not being much of a mystery like it was back then for them.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:43 am

    They started first with primitive technology then created s75 then s200 then s300...

    Exactly and most importantly they sent it out to their allies who tried them against the US and her allies and they looked at all the methods and tactics to defeat these systems and when developing new systems took those tactics into account.

    Best example is the SA-6 in the middle east... Israel had some really problems with this system even though there were several systems using continuous wave guidance... in the end they took advantage of the fact that the TELs didn't have their own radar... when attacking a battery take out the radar vehicle with an ARM and the TELs are sitting ducks and can be cleaned up by F-16s with dumb bombs... the replacement for the KUB was the BUK, where each TEL has its own tracking radar and optical guidance and can shoot down ARMs... they didn't just design it to carry more missiles and reach further... they looked at what made it vulnerable and they fixed it... the S-400 is a very capable system because they have a long history of getting their air defences tested by the US and NATO who have enormous budgets and lots of smart people trying to work out how to defeat enemy air defences.
    avatar
    Azi

    Posts : 250
    Points : 246
    Join date : 2016-04-05

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Azi on Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 pm

    Firebird wrote:Obviously Russia is now selling the S400 to Turkey. Its also selling it to some pretty shady 3rd world countries.
    So, I'm wondering what  safeguards does Russia have in place to stop one or more of these systems getting into the hands of say, American engineers. Engineers who might try and back engineer it. Or might assess it with a view to making it less effective?

    Does each stystem get sent with Russian engineers to oversee this? Or is it more about processors shutting things down etc and advising of any tampering?
    The export systems differ from their own systems. Soviets had 3 types of quality categories...friends (everyone), good friends (Warsaw Pact) and the best category for themself.

    That's why soviet weapon technology was so many times underrated and western countries living in a illusory bubble of technologic supremacy. After the collaps of USSR many were shocked of real capabilities of soviet army. West-german pilots after 1990 flew the Mig-29 and loved the aircraft. German MiG-29 (9-12A) "Fulcrum-A" the oldest version for countries of Warsaw Pact, they serviced after upgrades to NATO-standard till 2004 in the "Luftwaffe".

    Turkish S-400 systems will of course use the same missiles like Russia, but the system as a whole is a downgraded version! Maybe if USA will reverse engineer the turkish S-400 (that means "destroying" the complete turkish system!), they will never get the 100% Russian systems have. And reverse engineering is a really hard task, because you have the components, but you know nothing about the process of creation (the real secret!). And I duobt really Turkey will share everything with USA now Wink by the way...the Russians said they would sell the system even to the USA for the right price ;D

    So everything cool! afro
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:52 am

    The other aspect is that question what is an S-400 battery?

    You have TELs and command vehicles and all sorts of support vehicles, but there are a variety of different radar vehicles too, not to mention other vehicles including Pantsir or TOR batteries and jammer and decoy units that all operate with the system... different customers pay different prices and get different toysets.

    Like I said, they wont be getting the full equipment set that Russia gets, and even the stuff they get will be dialled back slightly... and that is very easy as the range for locks and detection will come down to algorithms which will be different for each customer... Pay 5 billion and you will lock targets at 400km, pay 6 billion and you might lock targets at 450km, and the types of targets you can detect is expanded...
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 590
    Points : 681
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  jhelb on Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:02 am

    GarryB wrote:You have TELs and command vehicles and all sorts of support vehicles, but there are a variety of different radar vehicles too, not to mention other vehicles including Pantsir or TOR batteries and jammer and decoy units that all operate with the system... different customers pay different prices and get different toysets.

    The missiles of the S 400 system (40N6E, 9M96 etc) are resistant to jamming. Isn't it ?

    How are missiles made resistant to jamming ?
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2239
    Points : 2237
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Hole on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:56 pm

    Via SouthFront.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 003011
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:26 am

    How are missiles made resistant to jamming ?

    Well first of all you need to make your signals unique and identifiable... so the missiles can tell what is a command signal, what is a real radar return from their on board ARH seeker, but also what is enemy generated and to ignore enemy generated signals.

    More importantly when spurious signals are detected they need to be located and marked on the system and then actively attacked... perhaps even home on jam missiles used to shoot down active jammer sources... and often that can benefit from multispectral systems...

    For instance the Kh-58 anti radiation missile called AS-11 by NATO has in its newest version two IR ports under its nose so even if the target radar is turned off when the incoming missile is detected it can continue to guide itself towards the radar antenna... which has just had enormous amounts of electricity pumped through it so even though it is no longer emitting radar energy it will still also be giving off a lot of IR energy while it cools down... which actually gives it a more precise target to aim at than the radio waves.

    The main problem with jammers is distance... if you want to jam radars the size and power as used with the S-400 system you need an enormously powerful jammer and it needs to be rather close to the battery to be effective... which pretty much makes it a sitting duck.

    Even with the S-300 the solution is the same and it has the same problem... getting things close enough to stop them being effective get shot down and stop being effective. They are too expensive and big to have in enormous numbers to overwhelm the system.
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 590
    Points : 681
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  jhelb on Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well first of all you need to make your signals unique and identifiable...

    How can signals be made unique and identifiable ?

    GarryB wrote:so the missiles can tell what is a command signal, what is a real radar return from their on board ARH seeker, but also what is enemy generated and to ignore enemy generated signals.

    EW/Jamming searches the RF spectrum for emissions and analyze the results to exploit the missiles sensors involved. Exploitation includes tactical early warning, identification for counter weapon selection and recording to support countermeasures development. This provides a means of determining the signal modulation, sidebands, pulse width, and PRF. From this information the signal can be identified and associated with a specific threat or platform. This is mot efficiently performed by a digital computer, but can be done by manual analysis and consulting publications.

    So I don't see how the missiles of the S-400 or any other similar system can be made resistant to jamming.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:01 am

    How can signals be made unique and identifiable ?

    Code them. When you speak on the telephone the microphone in the telephone can pick up an enormous range of sounds and frequencies... many your ear can't even hear and sounds you mouth is not able to make... in the space of one telephone or radio conversation you could burst transmit a billion bits of coded communications in the background of the actual conversation. Those billion bits could be encrypted. 99.999% of the transmission could just be bollocks... useless information put there to waste the time of the enemy, but they wont know until they can decode it all.

    This can all be software driven so any hardware that is captured doesn't get to updates, or gets updates for special compromised hardware and seems to function normally but does not reveal anything of value.

    They are not new to the game. IFF is something aircraft use to identify themselves to allies and friends or neutral parties when moving through international airspace... at one time if you send a signal to a plane it then squawked a reply... obviously that was abused... Israel had a system that squawked everyone and by setting up listening posts around the place all the replies were plotted to locate all enemy aircraft nearby... they didn't need to track them on radar, just sending the challenge code on their IFF system... even if it was wrong would result in them signaling back and revealing their presence and general location... obviously now you need to send the correct code to get any response... it is a game of measure and countermeasure... not easy but doable.

    So I don't see how the missiles of the S-400 or any other similar system can be made resistant to jamming.

    Well how do laser homing weapons hit their targets?

    I mean if I shine a laser at a tank a few kms away the laser light will reflect off the target and the laser homing missile or bomb will detect the reflections and home in on that laser light, but sunlight is white and contains all the colours of light and light above and below visible light that laser target markers used to illuminate ther targets.
    The guided weapon is not just looking for a particular colour of light, it is looking for a coded modulated laser signal... the target can be painted in colours that do not reflect frequency ranges used for laser target markers, in fact they might set up smoke grenades nearby to be launched in front of the tank if a laser has been detected, so the reflected laser energy will be reflected off the smoke 100m in front of the tank target.

    The point is that any method you try to jam a missile can be defeated or targeted... if the US send a drone to transmit noise on the communications channels used to direct missiles then shooting down the drone becomes the obvious solution... a missile with home on jam capability being the obvious immediate solution... the missile is already designed to receive signals in a frequency at a certain modulation, so a jamming signal should be relatively easy to detect and locate and home in on.

    At best all they actually need to do is have the missile able to orient itself... where was it launched from and where is it going... command signals coming from where it is going should be ignored and command signals from where it came from should be followed... if command signals coming from where you are going become overpowering then use onboard radar to find source and destroy it... now of course the enemy might use this to their advantage and set up lots of jammers so missiles fired at say a strike package of aircraft could release small 100kg gliding bombs whose payload is a jammer rather than a HE warhead, and each missile fired at the group is distracted by these bombs which are destroyed but allows the aircraft to continue on their mission.

    Obviously the SAM system can detect such jamming platforms as its radar and antenna are much much bigger and much more powerful than anything fitted to a missile, so they might try to overrule the missiles and use their own power to burn through the jamming and target the sources of the problem...
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 996
    Points : 1037
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:31 am

    https://twitter.com/krakek1/status/1171682544150093824?s=09
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13572
    Points : 14065
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:46 pm

    Russian Air Defense Forces receive a new regimental set of S-400 anti-aircraft missile system

    JSC Concern "Almaz-Antey", within the framework of obligations under the state defense order, ahead of schedule, transferred to the Russian Ministry of Defense the first regiment kit of the S-400 Triumph anti-aircraft missile system in 2019.

    The company clarified that the components of the system were delivered to the docking base of the Kapustin Yar landfill by rail and placed at technological sites. Before the acceptance tests, incoming control, docking and adjustment of the components of the S-400 system were carried out.

    Earlier, Commander-in-Chief of the Aerospace Forces of the Russian Federation Sergey Surovikin said that in 2018, five regiments were re-equipped with S-400 systems - four in the Air Force and one in the Northern Fleet.

    Presumably the regimental set (two divisions) of the S-400 air defense system received by the 1536th Red Star Anti-aircraft Missile Order of the Don Cossack Regiment (permanent deployment of Rostov-on-Don). In August 2019, the regiment went on exercises in Kapustin Yar.



    From the above message, it became known one of the Northern Fleet regiments was equipped in 2018 with the S-400 air defense system. Judging by the satellite image of the American company DigitalGlobe dated August 31, 2019, published on the militaryrussia.ru forum the the 33rd anti-aircraft missile regiment (Rogachevo village, Novaya Zemlya islands) was re-equipped with S-400 systems.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 72154310

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3771043.html
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13572
    Points : 14065
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:58 pm

    Demonstration to Serbian military personnel in Russia (during Russian-Serbian air defense exercise “Slavic Shield - 2019”) of a transport launcher (TPU) 5P85S2 of S-400 SAM system with the placement on it simultaneously of a transport and launch container of 48N6 anti-aircraft missiles and a package of four transport and launch containers of 9M96 anti-aircraft missiles.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Ser_ru10
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3758
    Points : 3746
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:53 am

    What is 1 battalion composed of ?



    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    10h
    Almaz-Antei announced that they have delivered the first S-400 regimental set to the Russian military this year, presumably to the 1536th Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment in Rostov-on-Don. This means the Russian Military has received 57 S-400 battalions.
    franco
    franco

    Posts : 3214
    Points : 3246
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  franco on Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:29 pm

    Anti-aircraft missile battalions of S-400 consists of:
    - management;
    - Radio Technical battery (Department of command and control, separation of receiving and transmitting devices, separation of radar reconnaissance, where 1 unit 92N6E multifunction control radars, mobile tower 1 unit 40V6M for antenna post 92N6E, 1 unit 96L6E all-altitude radar...);
    - 2 Fire battery (with 4 units 5P85TE2 launchers each);
    - Electromechanical maintenance unit;
    - Automotive platoon;
    - Communications platoon;
    - survey unit;                                                                  
    - logistics unit;


    This is typical 8 TEL battalion. There are some 4 and 6 TEL units out there presently.

    The original Plan was for 56 battalions by the end of 2020 but suspect with production of S-500 and S-350 taking longer to commence then funds and efforts were put into the S-400.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21749
    Points : 22295
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:54 am

    George1 wrote:Demonstration to Serbian military personnel in Russia (during Russian-Serbian air defense exercise “Slavic Shield - 2019”) of a transport launcher (TPU) 5P85S2 of S-400 SAM system with the placement on it simultaneously of a transport and launch container of 48N6 anti-aircraft missiles and a package of four transport and launch containers of 9M96 anti-aircraft missiles.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Ser_ru10

    Well this shows the S-350 is technically already operational as it is clearly deployed with S-400 batteries...



    At one minute and four seconds in this video you can clearly see an S-400 TEL with only two tube locations filled... ie with the tubes lying down horizontal only the two bottom tubes attached with the top two tubes missing, where one is a standard full sized missile tube with presumably a 250km range S-400 missile, while in place of the other tube a quad pack for 9M96 missiles of unknown types.. probably 150km range models.

    Sponsored content

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3 - Page 20 Empty Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:36 pm