Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Share
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2104
    Points : 2100
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:26 pm

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/14/russia-launch-government-tests-17-amb-17-rifles-2018/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    Russia to Launch Government Tests of AM-17 and AMB-17 Rifles in 2018



    Video of the rifle
    https://kalashnikov.media/media/videolibrary/4516418


    In one of its recent news releases, Kalashnikov Concern has announced that the Russian government will start testing the new AM-17 and AMB-17 compact assault rifles in 2018. Several Russian special service agencies including the Federal Protective Service (FSO) and Federal Security Service (FSB) as well as the Russian National Guard have expressed a high interest in these two firearms.

    Once the tests are finished, the Kalashnikov Concern will start mass production of both rifles. The AM-17 will most likely replace the AKS-74U (a.k.a Krinkov). Dimensions wise the AM-17 is comparable to the AKS-74U. It has an advantage of being slightly lighter weight – 2.5 kg compared to 2.7 kg of Krinkov. BCGs of these rifles ride on a top chassis allowing them to have most of the receiver parts made of polymer material thus making them lighter. This layout was pioneered by Yevgeny Dragunov in his MA compact rifle design which ironically was AKS-74U’s competitor in the trials. The suppressed version (AMB-17) will probably be considered for replacing firearms like AS VAL or VSS Vintorez.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11358
    Points : 11839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:37 am

    Ground Troops Day@ Patriot,1Oct.Recon company of 27th OGvMSBr.Note:SVDM(6V11),VSSM(6P29M) & ASM(6P30M).©️Vitaly Kuzmin



    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11358
    Points : 11839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:23 pm

    Russian SAW: Tokar-2 5.45x39mm Belt Fed Light Machine Gun Showed Off at National Guard Open House 2017 russia

    The elusive Tokar-2 5.45mm belt-fed machine gun made an appearance at the recent Rosgvardia Open House event late last month. The event demonstrated weapons and equipment being used by the Russian National Guard (Rosgvardia), and was open to the public. Russian media outlet Armytex posted pictures of the event to their page on the social media site VK.com, including photos of the Tokar-2:


    The Tokar-2 firing fully automatically from a standard AK-74 pattern magazine.


    Tokar-2 light machine gun firing fully automatically from a non-disintegrating belt.

    The Tokar-2 is a belt-fed small caliber (5.45mm) light machine gun developed at the request of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD). Originally called “Kord-5.45”, the new machine gun is being procured for the VV Internal Troops, which were the special operations forces of the Ministry until 2016, when they were reorganized under the new National Guard of Russia. It’s not clear how the reorganization has affected the development of the Tokar-2, although – as evidenced by the photos – the program apparently still continues. Although Kalashnikov Concern seems to have produced a weapon for this solicitation, the weapon in the photos is evidently Degtyarev’s design.

    Technically, the Tokar-2 is a very similar weapon to the Western Minimi (in US service called the M249 SAW/LMG). Like the Minimi, it is belt-fed, with an alternate magazine-feed system; however the belt links for the Tokar-2 are non-disintegrating similar to the Russian PKM machine gun. The weapon in the photos at Rosgvardia Open House is equipped with what appears to be a detachable combination moderator/flash hider, as well.

    With the development of the Kalashnikov 96-round drum for the new RPK-16, it is unclear whether the heavier, more complex, and harder to operate Tokar-2 offers any substantial improvement over more conventional magazine-fed weapons. With the USMC and possibly even US Army moving away from belt-fed 5.56mm weapons, it seems plausible that the Russian National Guard may also choose a simpler weapon like the RPK-16 to fill the role, instead of the more-expensive Tokar-2. However, that remains to be seen.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/06/16/russian-saw-tokar-2-5-45x39mm-belt-fed-light-machine-gun-showed-off-national-guard-open-house-2017/

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2057324.html


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2194
    Points : 2238
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:36 pm

    George1 wrote:Russian SAW: Tokar-2 5.45x39mm Belt Fed Light Machine Gun Showed Off at National Guard Open House 2017  russia

    The elusive Tokar-2 5.45mm belt-fed machine gun made an appearance at the recent Rosgvardia Open House event late last month.

    Tokaryev is Tula, Tula's governor is Dyumin. They will buy this gun, thy will buy Smile

    BTW 6x49mm died for good and Russians will return to 7,62x54 ?
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3304
    Points : 3400
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:42 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russian SAW: Tokar-2 5.45x39mm Belt Fed Light Machine Gun Showed Off at National Guard Open House 2017  russia

    The elusive Tokar-2 5.45mm belt-fed machine gun made an appearance at the recent Rosgvardia Open House event late last month.

    Tokaryev is Tula, Tula's governor is Dyumin. They will buy this gun,  thy will buy Smile

    BTW 6x49mm died for good and Russians will return to 7,62x54 ?

    It does make sense for Russia to procure different types of small arms, competing ones as well - for its different service branches.

    They can have Tokars for the National Guard, RPK-16s for the army, maybe something else for the VDV/Marines and the SSO and other Spetsnaz will just pick whatever they want including foreign weapons; if those are the best for the job.

    Then in terms of pistols - the police can favour one type, the military another, the national guard another one and the special forces and FSO just whatever works best.

    They all use common ammo types already in service, and parts for small arms are not exactly an issue. Even if a weapon requires its own special calibre; it's still not an issue if it's just confined to a narrow field.

    So why not pick whatever model fits the requirements of the state organ/srvice branch/organization best - and then these weapons can be trialed and used in parallel, various arms makers get orders, and afterwards notes can be compared as to which ones work better under what conditions in practice

    Older models such as RPK-74s/RPK-74Ms can be given away to Russian allies of limited means such as the DNR/LNR, Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transdniestr or Syria.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:50 pm

    With the USMC and possibly even US Army moving away from belt-fed 5.56mm weapons, it seems plausible that the Russian National Guard may also choose a simpler weapon like the RPK-16 to fill the role, instead of the more-expensive Tokar-2. However, that remains to be seen.

    WTF does the USMC choice in weapons have to do with Russian weapon procurement?

    The US might have adopted a light machine gun that could feed from belts or magazines... the Soviets did that in 1946 with the RP46 and they didn't keep it.

    It was replaced by the RPD belt fed only weapon and then the RPK family of box feed weapons.

    BTW 6x49mm died for good and Russians will return to 7,62x54 ?

    I hope the reason we have not seen 6x49mm calibre weapons is because they are working on something even better to replace the old cartridge.

    Caseless or plastic cased?

    Eventually I suspect the Army will get a family of weapons with some parts interchangable and related, but that might be some time away...

    Would love to see them standardise on the 9x21mm round and drop the 9x18 and 9x19 rounds they currently use.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11358
    Points : 11839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:04 am

    AN-94 with Picatinny rail, Dedal-NV collimator type sight, bi-pod and mounted sound suppressor. Image via Moskit at Otvaga2004



    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11358
    Points : 11839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:48 pm

    Modernized assault rifle ASM Val 6P30M







    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:30 am

    Nice, but the only obvious changes from the original AS are the picatinny mounts on the top and front handguard and the 30 round magazine instead of the 20 round mag...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2339
    Points : 2504
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:24 am

    GarryB wrote:Nice, but the only obvious changes from the original AS are the picatinny mounts on the top and front handguard and the 30 round magazine instead of the 20 round mag...

    Yep. I think they've just dolled it up a bit to correspond to current tastes...definately looks better aesthetically
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:58 am

    In which case I would prefer the SR-3Ms as just looking a bit cooler.

    Actually it is amusing but the main criticism of the AKS-74U is that its short barrel means the 5.45mm round is not as accurate as in longer barrel versions like the AK-74 and other longer barrel models (even the carbine AK-105).

    A 9 x 39mm round does not need a long barrel for accuracy and neither does the 7.62 x 39mm round so a short barrel carbine in either of those two calibres should be the best option for a very short barrel carbine design.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 411
    Points : 445
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:04 pm

    Have they decided on the new assault standard issue rife yet?

    Hopefully its the A-545 or AK-12 I have a passionate hatred of pollymer.

    As for pollymer woulden't a the front section of the reciever on plastic assalt rifle melt when in use in a drawn out battle?


    That said I am currious about a plastic gun does anyone know what is the purpose this gun called the PP-90-M1 looks like a usefull way to arm a few million peaple at a moments notice?

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:17 am

    It is just a sub machine gun... it can take box mags (32 rounds) or helical mags (64 rounds).

    What I don't like about it is the bar above the barrel... you pull it back to cock the weapon... puts your fingers close to the muzzle to ready the weapon... very ambidextrous, but I don't think it is very clever.

    Personally I would prefer the Klin/Kedr, or Kashtan for size, or the SR-2 for firepower (9x21mm).

    Would like to see a definitive PP-19-01 Vityaz in 9x21mm as well...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 411
    Points : 445
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:48 am

    It would realy be nice if they made a steel version built in a similar way to the PPS-43 that fired the 9x21mm rould as a cheap but effective close range bullet hose type weapon for internal troops and the increased weigh would help with recoil.

    Anyway as far as assault rifles go won't the front part of a plastic reciever get too hot in combat? I have seen AKs getting very hot after only a few magazines.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:57 am

    Most soldiers only carry about 300 rounds into combat with them as their official load of ammo... that equates to about 10 full magazines which shouldn't be enough to cause cook offs or other problems.

    More importantly few soldiers will burn off ten mags all that fast... short bursts is more likely over a period of time rather than empty the rifle as fast as poss.

    The vast majority of shooting should be single shots aimed at targets or short bursts at enemy positions to keep their heads down.

    If you start spraying the area any sensible enemy will just take cover and wait for you to either run out of ammo or need to reload and then get you.... they wont have to guess where you are firing from.

    Modern resin polymers are no more flammable than wood... the inside of the wooden stock on my FN FAL has a sheet metal like tin foil on it to resist heat.

    There is no need for guns to be heavy... for high rate of fire weapons like the PKM the ammo is often heavier than the weapon carried... about 7kgs for the weapon and about 7kgs for every 200 round belt.... so three or four belts weighs rather more than the weapon that fires them.

    In terms of heating very hot plastic parts you can't touch is no better nor any worse than very hot metal parts that burn you when you touch them.

    More importantly in arctic areas metal parts will burn exposed skin while plastic parts become very brittle. Of course resin parts don't burn you and don't become brittle and are better than either...



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Cheetah

    Posts : 47
    Points : 51
    Join date : 2016-11-26
    Location : Australia

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Cheetah on Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm

    I recall a great many Youtube videos of trigger happy Americans testing the endurance of various guns under consecutive fire. Naturally, they'd most likely be using some AK rip-off, or modified civilian model, so take the results with a grain of salt.

    In one particular instance, both the AR and the AK that were being tested took ~850-950 rounds before deforming and becoming useless. In the case of the AR, the hand-guard material caught fire and the gas tube deformed and separated, making the gun unusable. In the case of the AK, a similar story. At the 800 round mark, the hand-guard caught fire, however, unlike the AR, it failed due to a deformation of the barrel, which lead to an improper seal for the gas piston. I recall the uploader attempted to bend the barrel back into place and got about a dozen more shots off. Interestingly, the AK never cooked off.

    The point being, in a worse case scenario, with fully automatic fire and no breaks, a modern, civilian-accessible assault rifle can get off about 850 rounds before some kind of serious failure.

    In short, firing a small arm at fully auto for a long time is a lot like rev-ing your car in the red zone for a long time. In both cases the mechanism will operate to some degree, but ultimately you are spelling a short life expectancy for a marginal increase in efficiency / power.

    EDIT:
    I ought to add that the uploader was dressed in thick material, with a welding helmet and welding gloves, and still managed to comment on the heat emanating from the gun.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:41 am

    Should be added that if you do have thousands of zombies coming at you and you have thousands of rounds already loaded into magazines ready to fire then you could probably maintain a rather higher rate of fire simply by having a barrel of cold water handy to dip your rifle into every 30 rounds or so to help deal with the heat.

    Firing full auto continuously is also rather wasteful... single shots to the head you could probably fire several thousand rounds before you start getting heating problems simply because you are already reducing the heat being applied by the ammo to the gun and also adding more time for the heat to be released into the air.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 411
    Points : 445
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:20 am

    GarryB wrote:Should be added that if you do have thousands of zombies coming at you and you have thousands of rounds already loaded into magazines ready to fire then you could probably maintain a rather higher rate of fire simply by having a barrel of cold water handy to dip your rifle into every 30 rounds or so to help deal with the heat.

    Firing full auto continuously is also rather wasteful... single shots to the head you could probably fire several thousand rounds before you start getting heating problems simply because you are already reducing the heat being applied by the ammo to the gun and also adding more time for the heat to be released into the air.


    Thousands of brainwashed ukropian traitors coming at you? there is somthing for that its called a tctical nuclear device or that bigh thermobaric bomb that Russian has if on your own soil.

    Also you could just be in a helicopter where thay cant get you becaus western propaganda has eroded their brains too mutch for them to use a gun.

    But as far as conventional weapons go MosinNagant<PPSH-41<ZSU-23-4 Shilka volume and explosions is best.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5828
    Points : 5867
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Militarov on Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:Most soldiers only carry about 300 rounds into combat with them as their official load of ammo... that equates to about 10 full magazines which shouldn't be enough to cause cook offs or other problems.

    More importantly few soldiers will burn off ten mags all that fast... short bursts is more likely over a period of time rather than empty the rifle as fast as poss.

    The vast majority of shooting should be single shots aimed at targets or short bursts at enemy positions to keep their heads down.

    If you start spraying the area any sensible enemy will just take cover and wait for you to either run out of ammo or need to reload and then get you.... they wont have to guess where you are firing from.

    Modern resin polymers are no more flammable than wood... the inside of the wooden stock on my FN FAL has a sheet metal like tin foil on it to resist heat.

    There is no need for guns to be heavy... for high rate of fire weapons like the PKM the ammo is often heavier than the weapon carried... about 7kgs for the weapon and about 7kgs for every 200 round belt.... so three or four belts weighs rather more than the weapon that fires them.

    In terms of heating very hot plastic parts you can't touch is no better nor any worse than very hot metal parts that burn you when you touch them.

    More importantly in arctic areas metal parts will burn exposed skin while plastic parts become very brittle. Of course resin parts don't burn you and don't become brittle and are better than either...


    Here you carry 150 rounds for your rifle as part of combat package as they call it. 4 magazines in your vest and 1 in your rifle.

    Cyrus the great

    Posts : 289
    Points : 299
    Join date : 2015-06-12

    It would be great if Kalashnikov

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:42 am


    It would be great if Kalashnikov created an assault rifle variant of their new SVK rifle; it uses the same short-stroke piston of the AK-400, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure what the differences are between a reverse short-stroke piston and a conventional short-stroke piston, but the SVK seems to tick all the boxes. It has an easily accessible magwell, it's ergonomic and can easily be modified into an assault rifle with the further inclusion of certain features like an ambidextrous charging handle.

    Cyrus the great

    Posts : 289
    Points : 299
    Join date : 2015-06-12

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:28 am

    Information on the Svch rifle is scant but I presume that it has an adjustable gas block like a lot of recent Russian firearms. Am I wrong to think that it could serve as an assault rifle with some minor changes like a reciprocating charging handle? Russia might not adopt it as an assault rifle but it would probably sell pretty well in international markets.
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3960
    Points : 3987
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:44 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:Information on the Svch rifle is scant but I presume that it has an adjustable gas block like a lot of recent Russian firearms. Am I wrong to think that it could serve as an assault rifle with some minor changes like a reciprocating charging handle? Russia might not adopt it as an assault rifle but it would probably sell pretty well in international markets.


    It is based on the Dragunov MA so yes it is going to be presented as an assault rifle.

    Cyrus the great

    Posts : 289
    Points : 299
    Join date : 2015-06-12

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:55 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:Information on the Svch rifle is scant but I presume that it has an adjustable gas block like a lot of recent Russian firearms. Am I wrong to think that it could serve as an assault rifle with some minor changes like a reciprocating charging handle? Russia might not adopt it as an assault rifle but it would probably sell pretty well in international markets.


    It is based on the Dragunov MA so yes it is going to be presented as an assault rifle.

    Excellent! Thanks KoTeMoRe. russia

    Questions:

    What is a reverse short-stroke? And what differentiates it from a regular short-stroke?

    I noticed that the early AK-12 had an ambidextrous charging handle but this feature was removed in subsequent variants. Do you know why they removed this feature?

    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6400
    Points : 6502
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:47 pm


    National Guard, pay attention to guy on the right with MG:
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17683
    Points : 18279
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:03 am

    Nice.... a PKP with a backpack feed.

    The Russians went from WWII with a drum feed DP-28 or DPM, to the RP46 which could use either drum or belt feed, but then they changed to the RPD in a belt feed and reduced size round, then to the same round in an enlarged box magazine in the RPK, then finally the smaller calibre higher velocity 5.45mm round in the RPK74 in 45 round mags.

    Many units seem to have replaced the RPK-74 with the PKP version of the PKM... it will be interesting if weapons like the RP-16 with its 95 round drum can make it into units or if the PKP with its more powerful ammo are used instead. A belt fed 5.45mm is more complicated and heavy while not adding the firepower of the 7.62 x 54mm.

    Perhaps the new belt fed gun in 6x49mm might be the best of both worlds... or perhaps a version of the RP16 in 6x49mm....


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:35 am