Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Anti-Military Libertarians

    Share

    andalusia

    Posts : 112
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  andalusia on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:23 am

    I was debating with some individuals on another forum and these people were right wing libertarians who believed in the primacy of free markets and it would reduce war and violence between nations.  These individuals were extremely anti-statist and worshiped the free market like it was a religion. There was a person who believed that a tank was a bad investment and a example of negative wealth.  There was another person who was against the government forming a military and believed individuals could group together to repel an invasion; this person did not trust the state using violence. The example he used was the Spanish people in the 19th century fighting back and defeating the Napolean invasion of Spain.  He used this as an example that a nation didn't need a military.

    I would like people's opinions about this way of thinking an why it is so foolish and dangerous and why such individuals think this way? Such persons don't like the amount of money that is spent on military hardware like tanks, submarines, jets and other equipment and it can be used to build schools, hospitals and other things.  They fear the government having such a monopoly on violence.

    I think such people have a very poor understanding of human nature.  What is the practical counter argument as to why a nation needs to spend a lot of money on a military and intelligence agency (like the CIA and KGB) to protect a nation?



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-pacifism

    Svyatoslavich

    Posts : 360
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Buenos Aires

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:21 pm

    Though I think a completely free market, stateless economy, is unreal and impossible to achieve, I way prefer libertarians over neocons (this strange breed of liberal capitalism and Trotskyit communism). One of the very few sane voices in US politics is the libertarian Rand Paul, son of also libertarian and former senator Ron.

    andalusia

    Posts : 112
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  andalusia on Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:24 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:Though I think a completely free market, stateless economy, is unreal and impossible to achieve, I way prefer libertarians over neocons (this strange breed of liberal capitalism and Trotskyit communism). One of the very few sane voices in US politics is the libertarian Rand Paul, son of also libertarian and former senator Ron.

    I disagree totally. I like neither one and Rand Paul like his father are libertarian nuts. I don't see where he is a sane voice. You didn't comment on my question about pacifism and those who oppose a nation having a military.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17226
    Points : 17832
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:31 am

    The so called free market does not work.

    Here in New Zealand the price of petrol is about $2 a litre. there are plenty of providers and on paper that should create competition but not when they all collude together to keep prices up.

    It is how big businesses were created... the local corner store provides goods but does not have the buying power of a nation wide chain of stores that can buy in bulk and has more power to demand prices from suppliers.

    This power means that chain can move in and provide low prices long enough for all the local competition to fold... once the local competition is gone they can name any price they like... that is free market forces.

    Companies like Coca cola are even worse... they even demand specific positions for their products in the store...

    The opposite of market forces.

    If you get into a discussion with an anti military libertarian then just ask them if they use the locks on their car doors, or the doors of their homes?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Svyatoslavich

    Posts : 360
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Buenos Aires

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:07 am

    andalusia wrote:
    I disagree totally. I like neither one and Rand Paul like his father are libertarian nuts.  I don't see where he is a sane voice. You didn't comment on my question about pacifism and those who oppose a nation having a military.  
    In the sense that libertarians, like yourself noticed, usually are against wars of aggression or foreign interventions of any kind. Ron and Rand Paul appear regularly in Russian and alt media exactly because of this.
    On the other hand, I agree with economic criticism of libertarianism, that is why I said it doesn't work.
    avatar
    ScotchedEarth

    Posts : 6
    Points : 8
    Join date : 2017-08-20
    Location : North Britain

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  ScotchedEarth on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:26 pm

    andalusia, one thing that r/w libertarian/anarcho-capitalist has wrong is his example of ordinary people reversing Napoleon’s conquest of Spain and Portugal. You could try suggesting he look up Wellesley (Wellington) and the Peninsular War: the Spanish and Portuguese guerrilleros would not have won without the significant help of the British Army and Royal Navy (not to mention the Spanish and Portuguese regular, i.e. State, forces that fought alongside).

    William M. Briggs wrote that ‘The love of theory is the root of all evil.’ Much good can be found in some philosophies and some good can be found in many; but trouble ensues when philosophy becomes dogma and conforming to theory is placed ahead of reality. No matter one’s beliefs, one should be flexible enough to modify them in accord with the dictates of reality. Some libertarians, however, (why I left the philosophy behind) are dogmatic, insisting on cramming all aspects of human existence into the box marked ‘libertarian’.

    There are degrees of libertarianism (as with any other belief). The extreme end of libertarianism advocates the abolition of the State, including armed forces (insurance companies will fill the gap or people will spontaneously rise when needed), with laws being replaced by social convention. (Although some people’s ‘libertarianism’ pretty much starts and ends with the legalisation of narcotics—Muh weed.)

    But some libertarians are quite moderate and flexible, and productive discussions enjoyed and they can be allies in some political campaigns.

    One might be able to draw a Venn diagram between libertarians, conservatives and reactionaries, with the common ground between all three being ‘Leave me alone’. As long as I’m not harming anyone (core libertarian), nor challenging the State (core reactionary) nor leaching off the State without putting anything in (core conservative), then I should be left alone by State, neighbours, etc. There’s common ground between conservatives and reactionaries (the State should enforce sexual morality), and between conservatives and libertarians (as long as the company makes a profit, anything goes).

    The trouble with criticising the free market, GarryB, is that we don’t actually have a free market. Across the West, governments mandate what minimum wage an employer pays his least skilled employee, whom he can hire and fire, and which customers he must serve; and we all (employer and employee) see our incomes shrink as we pay ever more for ever worse public services (and at least part of the reason for NZ’s petrol prices is the tax applied).
    Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice; all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things. All governments which thwart this natural course, which force things into another channel or which endeavour to arrest the progress of society at a particular point, are unnatural, and to support themselves are obliged to be oppressive and tyrannical.
    (Adam Smith, Lecture notes, 1755.)
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17226
    Points : 17832
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:39 am

    The trouble with criticising the free market, GarryB, is that we don’t actually have a free market. Across the West, governments mandate what minimum wage an employer pays his least skilled employee, whom he can hire and fire, and which customers he must serve; and we all (employer and employee) see our incomes shrink as we pay ever more for ever worse public services (and at least part of the reason for NZ’s petrol prices is the tax applied).

    In my experience when minimum wage is increased the contract is renegotiated with less working hours so you don't end up getting more.

    What is really needed is a wage ratio... a rule where the fat bastards at the top who earn enormous amounts and then get free shit like cars and meals and other perks and then get bonuses just for doing their jobs... something the people doing the actual work in the company never get...

    the idea is that a ratio should be calculated... say 5 times... where the highest paid worker or consultant in a company cannot earn more than five times the lowest paid full time or part time employees rate.

    It is like capital gains tax... you don't talk about it because you need lots of money to benefit from its absence...

    We have a supposed house shortage in Auckland.... but the reality is that we have a stupid bubble growth in house prices there... if you have ten million dollars then buy ten houses at a million dollars each and wait 3 years and then sell them for 2 million dollars each and make ten million dollars in 3 years... the 3 percent interest from the bank does not compare...

    Obviously if you need money to make money...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    andalusia

    Posts : 112
    Points : 156
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  andalusia on Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:35 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The trouble with criticising the free market, GarryB, is that we don’t actually have a free market. Across the West, governments mandate what minimum wage an employer pays his least skilled employee, whom he can hire and fire, and which customers he must serve; and we all (employer and employee) see our incomes shrink as we pay ever more for ever worse public services (and at least part of the reason for NZ’s petrol prices is the tax applied).

    In my experience when minimum wage is increased the contract is renegotiated with less working hours so you don't end up getting more.

    What is really needed is a wage ratio... a rule where the fat bastards at the top who earn enormous amounts and then get free shit like cars and meals and other perks and then get bonuses just for doing their jobs... something the people doing the actual work in the company never get...

    the idea is that a ratio should be calculated... say 5 times... where the highest paid worker or consultant in a company cannot earn more than five times the lowest paid full time or part time employees rate.

    It is like capital gains tax... you don't talk about it because you need lots of money to benefit from its absence...

    We have a supposed house shortage in Auckland.... but the reality is that we have a stupid bubble growth in house prices there... if you have ten million dollars then buy ten houses at a million dollars each and wait 3 years and then sell them for 2 million dollars each and make ten million dollars in 3 years... the 3 percent interest from the bank does not compare...

    Hey Garry I don't know if you heard of Adam Smith but this is a good read:

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/adam-smith-and-inequality/

    Obviously if you need money to make money...
    avatar
    ScotchedEarth

    Posts : 6
    Points : 8
    Join date : 2017-08-20
    Location : North Britain

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  ScotchedEarth on Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:13 am

    Exactly, GarryB—whenever a legally-mandated minimum wage is introduced, get-arounds and loopholes are found: official working hours are reduced but the workload remains the same, training or other perks end, some employees are let go and others not hired at all—and, increasingly, jobs are being automated out of existence (in Britain, one loophole is unpaid internships—Well done, liberals, replace a minimal-wage job with a no-wage job).

    You can’t legislate utopia into existence.
    But you can legislate dystopia…

    Regarding the fat cats: University of Toronto Professor Jordan B. Peterson, has some very interesting—and unPC—insights on a number of topics. In this segment starting here, he discusses why so few women are at the top of business. At one point he says:
    So, their husband’s already made $350,000 a year, so they think that, ‘Well, I don’t need much more money.’ The man needs money to keep track of the competition, by the way, because all the male lawyers that I talk to are usually real hard-ass guys—really low in agreeableness, really high in conscientiousness; conservative-types, low in openness as well, and they want to win. And the reason they care about their damn bonus at the end of the year isn’t even so much because of the money it’s because they got a much bigger bonus than the other son-of-a-bitch sitting beside them and they’re happy about that. So there’s a real brass knuckles competition that drives these sorts of things.
    So much of our behaviour is rooted in evolutionary biology—the CEO earning, say, US$9.5m a year, a ½m more than another CEO, does not value the extra $½m for its financial power but for status: that $½m shows the world that he is $½m more alpha than the other guy (rather like peacocks with their impractical and extravagant tails).

    How does one go against biology? Don’t want to end up the equivalent of those overweight feminists pushing ‘fat acceptance’—can’t go against biology, can’t force someone to be attracted to what they’re not attracted to; and you can’t really stop men pursuing ‘alpha’ status.

    Btw, Adam Smith’s two-volume The Wealth of Nations can be freely and legally downloaded from the ‘Online Library of Liberty’ website here (along with other works by him, and other historical authors of economic, legal and political texts). You can also get older copies at the Internet Archive, which is a fair treasure trove of old texts and journals (‘Read old books’—Mencius Moldbug).

    Sponsored content

    Re: Anti-Military Libertarians

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:00 pm