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    State Armament Program 2018-2025

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    Vote (multiple choice allowed) for the type of material that in your opinion will remain in the Russian Armed Forces after the end of 2025, and leave without vote the material that will be totally out of the Russian Armed Forces, including of the reserve:

    [ 4 ]
    11% [11%] 
    [ 3 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 3 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 4 ]
    11% [11%] 
    [ 4 ]
    11% [11%] 
    [ 3 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 4 ]
    11% [11%] 
    [ 3 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 3 ]
    8% [8%] 
    [ 6 ]
    16% [16%] 

    Total Votes: 37
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I personally believe that all types of equipment you mention in the poll will still be in service and/or in reserve for one I can't see Russia getting rid of the huge number of MT-12 anytime soon without having to totally scrap

    The current model MT-12 is the MT-12R which has a radar sight for night and all weather use. It uses a unique round being a 100mm calibre smoothbore gun not related to the 100mm rifled gun of the T-54/55, or the 100mm rifled medium pressure gun of the BMP-3.

    It uses the 3UM10 round with the 3BM24 APFSDS projectile, the 3UBK8 round with the 3BK16M HEAT round, and the 3UOF12 round with the 30F35 HE FRAG projectile but it can also fire GLATGMs too.

    Removing the MT-12 removes an entire calibre of ammo from the logistics and storage chain.
    .

    Confused by your reply on one hand it looks like your saying it's a good weapon but on the other saying it should be removed.

    I am not saying it wouldn't be beneficial to remove it like you said it removes a calibre but I am saying is that I personally can't see it being removed from service and /or reserve (especially reserve) by then for a few reasons one of which I mentioned earlier too many of them and to get rid of them would result in majority being scrapped. Another reason is like you said in your reply the upgraded version seems like it could still be useful. And last reason what will replace it in units that still use it? AT-5/AT-13/AT-14??? Or a self propelled ATGW system?  And has money been allocated for such replacement?
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    eehnie

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  eehnie on Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:47 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Confused by your reply on one hand it looks like your saying it's a good weapon but on the other saying it should be removed.

    I am not saying it wouldn't be beneficial to remove it like you said it removes a calibre but I am saying is that I personally can't see it being removed from service and /or reserve (especially reserve) by then for a few reasons one of which I mentioned earlier too many of them and to get rid of them would result in majority being scrapped. Another reason is like you said in your reply the upgraded version seems like it could still be useful. And last reason what will replace it in units that still use it? AT-5/AT-13/AT-14??? Or a self propelled ATGW system?  And has money been allocated for such replacement?

    For the replacement of the (M)T-12 in the units that still use it, the easiest and cheapest option would be to use some tanks of the current fleet in the reserve. Without cost, or if Russia wants, at the cost of some upgrade. And it would mean a serious upgrade in the capabilities of the soldiers in charge of them. The nature of the tank/antitank weapons is the same, the antitank artillery of the last decades used tank weapons.
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    GarryB

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:41 am


    Confused by your reply on one hand it looks like your saying it's a good weapon but on the other saying it should be removed.

    That is right... in practical terms it is still an effective weapon... small easy to conceal and move, with ammo powerful enough to take on a range of armoured vehicle types up to and including MBTs with the guided shells from flank positions.

    On paper however it has unique ammo that is not more powerful than the Sprut-B gun in the standard 125mm calibre smoothbore able to use all the new ammo types being developed for the new and upgraded tanks.

    It would be a potent and capable system for smaller conflicts like Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq where a larger calibre is not needed, but having its own unique ammo is an issue.

    Perhaps making a T-55 or T-62 or T-72 upgrade using the same 100mm smoothbore gun for smaller countries might be a good idea and sell them some MT-12s to go with them perhaps...

    And last reason what will replace it in units that still use it? AT-5/AT-13/AT-14??? Or a self propelled ATGW system?  And has money been allocated for such replacement?

    The direct replacement would be the Sprut B, which is 125mm calibre weapon that weighs twice as much (6 tons vs 3 tons) but has its own power plant for short distance moves.


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:28 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Confused by your reply on one hand it looks like your saying it's a good weapon but on the other saying it should be removed.

    That is right... in practical terms it is still an effective weapon... small easy to conceal and move, with ammo powerful enough to take on a range of armoured vehicle types up to and including MBTs with the guided shells from flank positions.

    On paper however it has unique ammo that is not more powerful than the Sprut-B gun in the standard 125mm calibre smoothbore able to use all the new ammo types being developed for the new and upgraded tanks.

    It would be a potent and capable system for smaller conflicts like Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq where a larger calibre is not needed, but having its own unique ammo is an issue.

    Perhaps making a T-55 or T-62 or T-72 upgrade using the same 100mm smoothbore gun for smaller countries might be a good idea and sell them some MT-12s to go with them perhaps...

    And last reason what will replace it in units that still use it? AT-5/AT-13/AT-14??? Or a self propelled ATGW system?  And has money been allocated for such replacement?

    The direct replacement would be the Sprut B, which is 125mm calibre weapon that weighs twice as much (6 tons vs 3 tons) but has its own power plant for short distance moves.

    I know that the calibre is the biggest issue but the replacement to sprut B I don't think will happen mainly due to Russia not seemly not being interested in it how many does Russia have in service? Apart from conflicts like Syria and Iraq I can't see a comeback for anti tank guns and even in Syria type conflict it might be easier to mount it on the back of a truck to help mobility but would likely need stability legs when firing its something the SAA like to do put things on trucks the small power plant is really only to move gun into position and cover very very short distance not as a mode of transport. When I was in the forces the British army used something similar on a 155mm artillery gun although they were only in use in TA units. I would have thought a AT-5 or metis mounted a 4x4 or if money allowed wheeled armoured vehicle such as tigr
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    GarryB

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:00 am

    The Sprut is an excellent weapon which when deployed is like the D-30 gun in that its trails are lowered onto the ground and staked with three arms at 120 degrees each so the gun can be aimed 360 degrees without having to dig it out and shift it.

    Being able to fire all the new ammo types being developed for new Russian armour means all sorts of special ammo can be used... in fact any length of rod penetrator could be used to further improve anti armour performance, while there are no autoloader restrictions on round length or weight.

    It is a very potent and powerful weapon that remains mobile.

    There is little advantage to mounting it on a vehicle... they already have a light tank with a 125mm gun on it... 2S25, and soon Boomerang and kurganets and likely Typhoon. (note in a recent thread it was mentioned the Typhoon will carry up to 125mm calibre weapons which confirms this will be an option.)

    Missiles are useful, but will already be there... the tank calibre gun offers the ability to fire a range of rounds at a range of targets including HEAT and HE Frag as well as sensor fused air bursting shells too... and of course APFSDS rounds.


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    eehnie

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  eehnie on Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:17 am

    The replacement of the (M)T-12 with weapons of 125mm on the new platforms requires production of new weapons. This only will be done at the rythm of the introduction of the new platforms in the Russian units.

    The replacement of the (M)T-12 with the 2S25 would require a return to production of the weapon. There is not reserve of this weapon.

    The replacement of the (M)T-12 with the towed version of the 2S25, the Sprut-B, has a serious handicap. This is a design of the 1980s that has not been ordered until now (unlike the 2S25). It means something.

    The cheapest option, and is a likely option, is the replacement with tanks in the reserve. And this is not as rare as some people can think.

    Analyzing how will be the future units of the Russian Armed forces, it is necessary to take into account that the Armata units will not have heavy antitank weapons. Will have tanks. A 125mm weapon mounted in an armata platform is a tank. Or the same if we talk about the new 152mm tank weapon. In this case previous tank and heavy antitank weapons will be replaced all by tanks.

    In the other side, the Kurganets, Bumerang and BMD-4M units will not have tanks, all will be antitank weapons. The position of the tanks will be covered by antitank weapons of 125mm or 152mm mounted on these platforms. In this case, previous tanks and heavy antitank weapons will be replaced all by mobile antitank weapons.


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Austin

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:38 pm

    Rogozin: Putin will receive a draft of the new state program of armaments before the end of the year

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4656930

    VORONEZH, 18 October. / TASS /. The draft State Arms Program (GPP) for the period 2018-2025 entered the College of the Military Industrial Complex, experts will complete their work in less than two months. After this, the new LG will be submitted for approval to the President of the Russian Federation. This was reported by TASS Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

    "I can only say one thing: a week ago [the program] entered the College of the Military Industrial Commission, my decision was created by working groups headed by members of the College of the Military Industrial Complex, which are responsible for the technical equipment of the families and types of armed forces," he said. carefully study their notebooks, their thick volumes. "

    According to the vice-premier, two months are assigned to the work for this work, but he expressed the hope that it will be completed earlier. "We have two months under the regulations, but we will do this work more quickly and we will send the draft of the State program of armaments to the president." While there is confidence that we will be able to put this work to the end of the year for signature, "he concluded. financing not only the armed forces, but also other power structures, we will already report this to the president. "

    The Deputy Prime Minister also specified that the main focus of the new SPG until 2025 will be made on the creation of a system of "unhabitable" communications and management, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin told Tass. "The most important thing is the creation of a management system and a system of unbreakable communications," the deputy prime minister said.

    In general, the priority of the prospective GPU until 2025 will not be the modernization of old weapons, but the creation of new ones, the deputy prime minister said.

    "Priorities are mainly given not so much to the modernization of the old weapons as to the creation of new ones: they are promising aviation complexes, including military transport and long-range aviation, these are unmanned complexes, robotics, that is all that is connected with the possibility and necessity of the withdrawal of a person from the zone of defeat, "he said," behind this we see the future and this will be the focus. " According to him, this applies to everything, and aviation, and the ground forces, and the Navy.


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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:41 pm

    Rogozin proposes to prohibit state purchases of imported software without disclosing the source code

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4656570

    VORONEZH, 18 October. / TASS /. Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin believes it is right to prohibit the purchase of imported software for government needs from manufacturers that do not disclose the source code. He stated this at a military-industrial conference "Diversification of the OPK in the field of telecommunications and communications."

    "Buying foreign equipment, switches, routers, servers, we sit down on the constantly updated foreign software, which does not have source codes," he said. "It is worth considering a ban on the supply to the public sector of equipment for those foreign sellers who do not open the source code and do not transfer the documentation necessary for the subsequent modernization by own forces ".

    The vice-premier warned that "all these games will end very badly." "As a matter of fact, we simply drag the bomb into our own house and do not know how this story will work in the conditions of aggravation of relations," Rogozin remarked. "And no one has simply canceled industrial espionage, so it's just stupid."

    Rogozin called for more ambitious tasks, taking into account the potential of the national defense industry. According to him, this is not so much a technological as a political task in modern conditions.


    Подробнее на ТАСС:
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    GarryB

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:08 am

    If they do produce Sprut 125mm towed guns to replace the MT-12 then they wont make 125mm guns made in the 1980s they will made current model higher pressure guns able to fire all the new ammo.

    The current model of the MT-12 has a radar fitted... I would not expect a new model Sprut to be less well equipped.

    In fact a radar would be very useful for the 125mm gun as ANIET uses radar and a timed fuse for air burst detonation of shells above targets, so radar would make it rather more effective.

    It would also fire any new guided missile rounds and long penetrator rounds with no autoloader restrictions.


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:00 am

    On the subject of removing calibres one thing that has been forgotten is the even though Russia might remove a certain calibre it doesn't mean that Russia won't stop producing it. Russia is advancing but many countries are still using soviet era weapons and will continue to do so for decades so maybe Russia isn't in any hurry to remove calibres but obviously from there own forces going forward and to streamline logistics they will reduce the number of calibres but I don't see total wipe out in the future from Russian Defense companies.
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    GarryB

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:40 am

    The 100mm smoothbore calibre is not widely used, and the MT-12 was not widely exported so there would not be enough export interest to warrant continued production of the ammo if the weapons were withdrawn from Russian use and storage.

    Either they would just be disposed of, or sold to a client... including ammo production capacity.

    That would mean one less calibre to stockpile for future use, plus saving all the parts and components needed to keep the weapons operational.


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:50 pm

    Don't get wrong I see benefits of removing it but as long as various armies using BS-3 and MT-12 the supply will be there and there's no signs yet of Russia replacing theirs. And Russia won't want to just drop it leaving customers without. Three options really to tackle foreign customers. Would be :
    1) Russia could offer Sprut at a discounted price to entice then to buy and retire the MT-12 = happy customer and Russia can drop that calibre and still makes money from continuing sales of parts and ammo of sprut.

    2) tell customers that by a certain date I.e year xxxx the ammunition will no longer be produced so either change weapon or buy shit loads of ammo to cover there needs after production is stopped.

    3) Russia produces enough ammo to cover customers needs for x amount of years then cease production.

    But number 3 could be risky if they over estimate and left with ammo then be forced to give it away. One unlikely solution but still worth mentioning is to sell production rights and machines to another country.

    Also it seems me mentioning the topic of mounting anti tank on a vehicle has actually happened. Algeria has truck mounted the
    MT-12.

    http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-48532/

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    GarryB

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    Re: State Armament Program 2018-2025

    Post  GarryB Yesterday at 7:45 am

    As I said it is not obsolete... the only reason to remove it from the inventory would be to get rid of a calibre from the stockpile.

    Of course at the end of the day they can continue to produce equipment and ammo they don't use...

    Russian ammo makers still make 303 ammo for commercial use and also 30-06 ammo too, not to mention 5.56mm rounds as well.


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