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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

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    auslander

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  auslander on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:32 am

    JohninMK wrote:That's pretty good shooting albeit with selected clips by the look of it from quite a few months. Can't read Russian but assume the buildings hit are farms and houses.

    Just hope that counter battery fire is as quick as possible as a psychological deterrent to the next gunners who want to open fire. Reinforce the 'fire and get incoming' mantra.

    First rounds in to the red roof buildings, structures ID'd as Staff right Sector. Second round of his is another Staff HQ for 'regular' orc unit.
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    Ispan

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:51 pm

    auslander wrote:
    First rounds in to the red roof buildings, structures ID'd as Staff right Sector. Second round of his is another Staff HQ for 'regular' orc unit.


    Some thoughts on artillery

    I am not professional artillerist, just a history buff who has learned a little about the subject. But I find it the video striking (pun intended)

    About those buildings, it says in the caption "position in Peski", most of the village is in ruins, at least the buildings near the frontline in the airport. Finding the red roof building was easy as there are only two houses with red tiles in Peski.

    The house is (was) here


    48°04'14.1"N 37°39'36.7"E
    48.070585, 37.660203

    at the most western part of Peski. I imagine the ukros felt safe there, in a not shelled portion of the village, and far from observation. I took a meter and measured across the screen the distance to the nearest Novorussian position, about 4.000 meters. Still within range of a 120mm heavy mortar, though I think is more likely the hits are from artillery, 122mm caliber, wich packs a hefty punch compared to the wimpy 105mm artillery rounds of NATO armies, with almost 4 kilos of TNT filler, double that of the 105 round. (though a 120mm mortar round in some cases has as much HE), so the explosions could be from mortars as well.  I think this pinpoint accuracy makes it more likely to be cannon shells, though.

    http://ww2data.blogspot.com.es/2015/06/soviet-explosive-ordance-120mm-mortar.html



    The videos are a collection of "the greatest hits" (pun), meaning they took the most cool looking shots (pun again) but still, they are surprising, even to a untrained observer like me.

    First of all, the target is hit with only a few rounds, striking in succession and hitting all of them nearly in the same spot, this means low dispersal and good accuracy. Second, for the first target of the video, assuming there is no editing of the video cutting out pieces to fast forward, and from the plumes of smoke it seems to happen without interruption, six rounds hit in 30 seconds. That's a very fast rate of fire, so I am thinking now some editing was done to compress the sequence.

    I cannot ascertain from where the shells are coming but I think from the south.  

    I am impressed by the accuraccy, all six shells hit within a circle of 20 meters of radius centered on the big house. It seems the fire was done by a single gun, rapid fire. I know enough from my readings to know that each gun has its unique ballistic characteristics and that small dispersal is consistent with a single gun, instead of several.

    Same can be said about the rest of the video shoots. Not battery salvos, more than one gun firing at the same target, wich would result in simultaneous or nearly so group strikes, but a succesion of rounds fired by the same gun.

    Again, I stress that is not what I would expect from a typical artillery shoot of the world wars. This is impressive accuracy with minimal ammunition expenditure. The lack of collateral damage, that is shell  holes all around the targets, and the fact that the drone is not observing for fire, there are no ranging shots to bracket the target and then fire for effect. I can see that the gunners are using predicted fire.

    I mean they have measured and know the ballistic properties of their gun and ammo, they have good maps as they know precisely the distance between the gun and the target, and therefore they can hit any known point with great accuracy, instead of having to do trial and error adjustments, known in artillery as "registering" or "corrections". The drone is not observing the fall of shot so the observer sends corrections to the artillery crews. It seems is just spotting for targets, that is, finding something to shoot at, and filming the effect.

    With a simple calculator, or even better, a dedicated ballistic software running on a laptop computer, or even better, an app on a smartphone, you can guarantee that if you know where the target is, you will hit it with a shell, without the need of corrections. But you will only know if you hit something at the point the shell arrived, if you have observation from somewhere, or from the air as in this case.

    The Novorussian artillery, thanks to modern technology is much more accurate than what we expect from the experiences of the world wars. This also explains something that disquieted me. One would be expected that frontline villages like Peski, after four years of war,  would have been razed and reduced to rubble, and the fields all near the frontline would be a moonscape of shell craters, and the trees reduced to stumps and matchwood.

    Surpringsily, most of Peski seems to be intact, from Google photos, wich are not reliable as they are censored to hide Ukrop positions, and are years outdated in order to hide the destruction and that by seeing where the craters are, the intensity of the shelling and who is to blame.

    So only the houses that were fought over during the 2014-2015 winter and those in line of sight of the airport have been hit by direct fire small arms, heavy weapons and of course artillery and mortars. It shows that the Novorussian artillery restrains from indiscriminate shelling of places where the enemy may be hiding, or from blind harassing fire at roads and junctions. Doing so would be destroying their own territory, houses, and shelling their own people, of course, and would be a waste of ammunition.

    Instead they rely on accurate aimed fire. This is so different from the mass saturation bombardments of world wars I still have to digest it and its implications. It's like back in 1991 in the Gulf War, having been raised on history of mass carpet bombing from the air, it was something out of science fiction come true to see smart bombs and guided missiles achieving what would have recquired hundreds of tons of unguided bombs.


    Though google map satellite photos lack high enough resolution to see the impact craters, I was looking around Zaitsevo, near Gorlovka and found evidence that on the other side, the Ukrops fire many more shells but they land all over the place. Only the largest craters from 152mm artillery are clearly visible, and the hits from 122mm guns and 120mm mortars are visible only as specks, but seeing the impact marks, also from the video of a shot down Ukrainian drone, and some other footage, it can safely be stated that Ukrainian artillery is less precise. Their guns are worn down and have more dispersal, and though they have the same technical tools at their disposal to predict where their shells will land, they are firing blind, when they do not have observatories. It really does not concern them, they fire by map, aiming at some known building, and let the shells fall at random, enough to terrorize civilians and damage housing and infraestructure, not good enough for firing at Novorussian positions.


    More importantly, the Novorussians have the advantage in aerial observation. The drones in this video compilation are insolently flying beyond the frontline trenches. At least the location is known for the first video. The ukrops felt safe in that building in a part of the village that had never been shelled, 5 km from the frontline. The fact that a drone can venture that deep into the enemy rear means the ukrops are unable to jam their signals. On the contrary, the ukrainian drones are shot down or jammed when they try to observe for their artillery on the frontline.

    That's all I can think of for now after watching the video a couple times and it's late at night. In general, except for the first shelling, wich was unexpected, I can see from all the digging that the Ukrops have reason to take cover from artillery shelling, I see lots of communication trenches, firing pits and earthworks for vehicles. The fact that the T-64 tank shelled was under a camo net shows they have reason to hide from aerial observation.

    If I were an Ukrainian soldier, I would be  nervous when I saw a drone overhead. But these are small and hard to see, and most likely have electric motors so they don't make noise. I am guessing the drones used in filming are small tactical drones for close reconnaissance with a ceiling of 5.000 meters max and a 10 km range.


    Last edited by Ispan on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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    JohninMK

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 pm

    Thanks guys for pointing out the reverse of what I thought, so much better. Any explanation for no-one running away when these rounds hit?
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    auslander

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  auslander on Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:13 am

    JohninMK wrote:Thanks guys for pointing out the reverse of what I thought, so much better. Any explanation for no-one running away when these rounds hit?

    Only thing you can do in a bombardment is get deeper in to a hole. Running is the worst thing you can do, that's if you've got something to hide in.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:25 pm

    Thanks, thought it would be something like that. Clearly, hear a drone get in a hole!

    Meanwhile


    Christo Grozev
    ‏ @christogrozev
    15h15 hours ago

    Ukraine plans to submit war-crimes claims against Russia at the Hague ICC as early as April this year. This is significant, among other things, as it may establish facts relating to #MH17 shoot-down earlier than the JIT court case will.

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:16 pm

    It won't cause this kangaroo court system is great for those making claims and showing bullshit documents, while it's bad for defendents cause they have to pay to defend. Worst case for Ukraine at any of these trials is they lose and that's it. If they win though, payday! In end, if they had anything substantial, they would have presented it earlier. Now? Nothing.
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    Ispan

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:30 am

    OSCE acting as the canary in the mine

    Photo captions in link are in English

    http://antimaydan.info/2018/01/obse_gryadet_bolshaya_vojna.html
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    JohninMK

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:34 pm

    Ispan wrote:OSCE acting as the canary in the mine

    Photo captions in link are in English

    http://antimaydan.info/2018/01/obse_gryadet_bolshaya_vojna.html
    Text below photos, Yandex translated

    OSCE: there is a GREAT WAR/ according to the latest reports, the situation in the Donbass once again heating up.

    "SMM OSCE: "the Parties are preparing for a larger offensive in February.

    First Deputy head of the Special monitoring mission of the OSCE in Ukraine Alexander hug said the failure of attempts to produce mine clearance and to take weapons in the Donbas and believes that this may indicate the impending escalation of the conflict.

    This was reported in the microblog Twitter OSCE.

    "Hug: Failed attempts to hold a clearance, to withdraw weapons and to dissolve the forces and means, as well as ongoing training are the signals that serve as an early warning that the parties are preparing for more confrontation, instead of stop the violence", - stated in the message.

    Hg: hand digging everywhere – in the literal and figurative sense.

    Hug from 21 to 25 January, is on a visit in the East of Ukraine. As reported, during the visit he will join patrols of OSCE monitors along the line of contact, as well as conduct a number of briefings.

    Hug: not only does not work on clearance, they actually lay more mines, sometimes even within areas where we would have breeding capabilities.

    Hug: Observation of SMM allow now to warn them in advance that threatens to escalate the situation and so to all those who decides and plays a role in this conflict, you must listen to each other, to prevent an even greater tragedy."
    According to the latest reports, the situation in the Donbass once again heating up.

    According to the intelligence service of the Armed forces of the DNI, the number of units of the APU, located in the zone of hostilities, a week ago had received instructions about the actual ending of the regime "Christmas truce" and the strengthening of the advanced units. In particular, this was the 128th, ogpp (a separate mountain-infantry brigade) and the 80th oaembr (airmobile brigade).

    In addition, there is substantial accumulation of forces and means of the APU in Mariupol direction. As noted in the command of the armed forces of the DNI:

    "In the area of responsibility of the 28th hombre revealed the arrival of units of the 93rd Ombre. Brigade artillery moved secretly at night and camouflaged in forest plantations and territories of the hangars at 22-23 km from the line of contact near the settlement Free. Units of the 1st and 2nd battalions of the 93rd brigade completed the placement of positions in conjunction with the 28th brigade..."

    Soon appeared in the media and reported that to Mariupol from the Kherson region there arrived two convoys of equipment from the 56, apbr, and two battalions of the living force. In the first column includes units of the brigade artillery group under the command of a war criminal Geronova S. C. the Second column was headed by sacobia – Gerasimenko D. D.

    In this case separately noted that the division under the command Gerasimenko D. D. had fought at Mariupol direction, and therefore knows the area of action.

    In addition, division 38 anti-aircraft missile regiment and 560 separate anti-aircraft missile battalion moved into battle positions in 35 kilometers North-West of Donetsk in 15 km to the North from Mariupol, respectively.

    All these data suggest that the enemy is preparing an offensive on Mariupol direction.

    The second likely direction of the impact remains Svetlodarsk arc, where the armed forces command and so has considerable force.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:06 pm

    They may attack around March or during Olympics. Olympics makes less sense since Russia isn't partaking it. And if they attack during the elections, even providing support to the Novorussians will give boost to Putin's popularity.

    So either way, Ukraine will lose. Heck, even if Russia doesn't partake at all, Ukraine will still lose.
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:47 pm

    Yet another warning sign. I am skeptical that Poroshenko will take the plunge unless pushe, but there's certainly something going on and will be larger than previous times.


    APU is preparing in the minefields corridors for the offensive



    2018-01-25 22:15


    DNR news today. Latest news of the Donetsk People's Republic 2018 , News ЛНР сегодня. The latest news of the Lugansk People's Republic 2018 , Summaries from the militia of Novorossia. The latest reports from the fronts of the People's Republic of Germany and the People's Republic of Germany ,

    The APU engaged in the clearance of neutral areas in the Gorlovka area. Apparently, this is the preparation of corridors before a large-scale offensive, sources in the power structures of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics said.

    Ukrainian troops intensified in the neutral areas in the Gorlovka area: the militants of the APU are clearing the land. The reliability of the information was confirmed by two sources in the power structures of the People's Democratic Republic and the People's Republic of Germany, which wished to remain anonymous.

    "The APU is clearing the" gray zone "near Gorlovka with the help of special equipment, and, thus, they prepare safe corridors for the offensive of infantry, assault groups, tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

    Two sources in the power structures of the Donbas republics, on condition of anonymity, confirmed this information, "military correspondent Semyon Pegov said in his telegram-channel.

    Recall earlier in the OSCE said that the parties to the conflict in the Donbass are preparing for its escalation.

    On the eve of the Speaker of the Defense Ministry of the Democratic People's Republic of Edward, Eduard Bazurin warned the enemy that if he decides to attack, he will "wash himself with blood" and be packed up with coffins.

    Source: antifashist.com

    Project Canada

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:38 am

    the Ukrops will probably time their offensive with either the Olympics or the FIFA cup to maximize their smear campaign against Russia, hope Russia won't hold back in this event.
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    kvs

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:42 am

    Project Canada wrote:the Ukrops will probably time their offensive with either the Olympics or the FIFA cup to maximize their smear campaign against Russia, hope Russia won't hold back in this event.

    I agree totally. Russia should hit back extra hard in response to such tricks. Whatever Russia does, the lie factory NATO MSM
    will smear it. So why hold back? Make NATO pay by whooping its proxies.
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:12 am

    kvs wrote:
    Project Canada wrote:the Ukrops will probably time their offensive with either the Olympics or the FIFA cup to maximize their smear campaign against Russia, hope Russia won't hold back in this event.

    I agree totally.   Russia should hit back extra hard in response to such tricks.    Whatever Russia does, the lie factory NATO MSM
    will smear it.    So why hold back?   Make NATO pay by whooping its proxies.

    I doubt they will hold back in either case

    1) Olympics. I don't think Russia gives a crap about this one given the BS they have to put up with. Technically they don't even participate in that Olympics. And I don't even know why anyone of the athletes even bothers. You compete for 2 things: money and/or glory. There was never any money in Olympics and now there isn't any glory either. No reason to hold back in the Ukraine.

    2) FIFA cup. If ukrops want to piss off every single Russian man, woman and child then this would be way to go since I guarantee that they would take it very personally. I do not think it would be healthy scenario for Kiev.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:22 am

    In all cases, if Ukraine attacks, it won't get the results in Russia like they think. Already Putin gets a lot of shit for not bombing Kiev in the first place. If Kiev does another major offensive, Russians are going to demand action against Kiev anyway.
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    Ispan

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:28 pm

    I am in touch via Telegram with a Spanish volunteer in Donbass. He is just a grunt, and not even a infantryman, but a stretcher bearer, but he gave me interesting data, judging by the wounded that are processed through the aid station , I made a quick dimensional analysis and estimated five thousand novorussian casualties per year, perhaps a thousand dead, and the rest wounded.

    Civilian casualties last year, I do not know if killed or also wounded were almost 500. The 10% proportion to military casualties does also look dimensionally correct.


    This is another data point that confirms that my previous estimates are correct. The Ukrainians are certainly suffering three times as much.

    So an average of 30-50 casualties a day in the entire front is correct for the ukrop army
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:20 am

    miketheterrible wrote:In all cases, if Ukraine attacks, it won't get the results in Russia like they think. Already Putin gets a lot of shit for not bombing Kiev in the first place.  If Kiev does another major offensive, Russians are going to demand action against Kiev anyway.

    Will they do a full scale invasion of ukropia and annex the lost territory?

    If not maby a nuclear attack is in order.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:42 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:In all cases, if Ukraine attacks, it won't get the results in Russia like they think. Already Putin gets a lot of shit for not bombing Kiev in the first place.  If Kiev does another major offensive, Russians are going to demand action against Kiev anyway.

    Will they do a full scale invasion of ukropia and annex the lost territory?

    If not maby a nuclear attack is in order.
    Highly unlikely on both counts.

    Any action by the Russians in Ukraine is likely to be limited to blunting any Ukops strikes, neutralising Ukops assets in the rest of the country (trying to avoid NATO assets were possible if they are still in country) and pushing the ceasefire line back to the oblast borders, trying to avoid the temptation of going to the Dneiper as the border. If I were the Russians I would announce these limits to their action as early as possible in the UN to try and stop or limit the inevitable NATO 'the Russians are coming' scaremongering. As Russia cannot be seen to be seizing part of a neighbour, then it would be back to Minsk2 but this time its actual implementation by Ukraine. If that then failed a range of options opens up but at least there is a decent sized territory in Donbass.

    No operational need for nukes, conventional munitions will sort it out.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:55 pm

    Why go for one province when you could have the whole country? If Russia intervenes either way the indoctrinated retards in the eu will hate Russia who ohnestly cares about thoes indocrinated retards opinion anyway?

    Reclaiming ukraine would be a strategic victory and take pressure of Russias border while not doing so acomplishes nothing why is not reclaiming ukraine even being considered?

    Not to mention that to the ukraininan people the Russian Army would be seen as liberators rather than agressors and would soon offer full alegence to the Russian federation after that they can be absorbed into Russia as they are clearly not worthy of autonomy.
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    Ispan

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 pm

    i think the best option for Russia would be reviving the Novorussia project and go for regime change in Kiev. Half of the country is pro-Russian, there would be no need to occupy hostile Western Ukraine, graciously concede independence to Galitzia and let them rot in their Banderastan, or make a deal with Poland to annex it up to Lvov.


    No need for Russia to get involved in the war, just break relations with Ukropistan, recognize Novorussia as the legitimate successor of Ukraine and provide all the asistance to Donbass for them to defeat the junta army, and advance on the Dnieper and drive on Kharkov and Kiev. The West will have to reckon with a Russian Ukraine when the rebel territory expands and the population receives the Donbass forces as liberators.

    It was the thing that could have been done in the fall of 2014. It's still possible, break the army in the field,and the regime collapses, as the SBU and police cannot offer resistance to organized military.
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:24 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:.....................
    Reclaiming ukraine would be a strategic victory and take pressure of Russias border while not doing so acomplishes nothing why is not reclaiming ukraine even being considered?.......

    It would only increase problems and expenditures for Russia and give idiots abroad all the political ammo they need

    Besides, why interrupt enemy while he is destroying himself?

    The-thing-next-door wrote:....Not to mention that to the ukraininan people the Russian Army would be seen as liberators rather than agressors and would soon offer full alegence to the Russian federation after that they can be absorbed into Russia as they are clearly not worthy of autonomy.

    Holy shit, this is beyond hilarious... lol1

    If you honestly believe that, then just goes to show that you don't have a clue about East Europe.

    While Germany underwent denazification process after WW2 nothing similar happened in Soviet sphere due to commie hippie bullshit ideology.

    Those regions are hotbeds 100% pure Nazi fanaticism that needed some heavy-duty decades long old-school NKVD-style reeducation and herd-thinning in picturesque Siberian nature to kick the Nazi virus out of them, something that those commie pussies did not have the stomach to do or didn't want to do because it clashed with their BS red dogma and now it all came back to bite Russia on the ass.

    Like we say here in Serbia: Ко не плати на мосту, платиће на ћуприји.
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    Ispan

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  Ispan on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:43 pm

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2018/01/war-in-donbass-expected-by-time-of.html
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:58 pm

    Ispan wrote:http://www.fort-russ.com/2018/01/war-in-donbass-expected-by-time-of.html

    They are really determined to give Vova that 90% election victory are they?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:00 pm

    Volker is demanding that UN troops be stationed all over Donbass including borders to Russia.

    Guess in other words, Russia will veto it and we are back at square one.

    Volker also states he wants to remove Russia's ability in the security Counsel. Of course everyone has to unanimously vote for that which Russia will also veto. But if they ignore Russia's veto, guarantee China will veto it as well.
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:.....................
    Reclaiming ukraine would be a strategic victory and take pressure of Russias border while not doing so acomplishes nothing why is not reclaiming ukraine even being considered?.......

    It would only increase problems and expenditures for Russia and give idiots abroad all the political ammo they need

    Besides, why interrupt enemy while he is destroying himself?

    The-thing-next-door wrote:....Not to mention that to the ukraininan people the Russian Army would be seen as liberators rather than agressors and would soon offer full alegence to the Russian federation after that they can be absorbed into Russia as they are clearly not worthy of autonomy.

    Holy shit, this is beyond hilarious... lol1

    If you honestly believe that, then just goes to show that you don't have a clue about East Europe.

    While Germany underwent denazification process after WW2 nothing similar happened in Soviet sphere due to commie hippie bullshit ideology.

    Those regions are hotbeds 100% pure Nazi fanaticism that needed some heavy-duty decades long old-school NKVD-style reeducation and herd-thinning in picturesque Siberian nature to kick the Nazi virus out of them, something that those commie pussies did not have the stomach to do or didn't want to do because it clashed with their BS red dogma and now it all came back to bite Russia on the ass.

    Like we say here in Serbia: Ко не плати на мосту, платиће на ћуприји.

    Mabey its time to revive the old "death to fascists" agenda.
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    auslander

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #27

    Post  auslander on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:17 am

    Maybe it's just time to use some common sense.

    No one in Russia is screaming at VVP to bomb 404 nor is anyone advocating taking over 404. Why should Mother take all, or even half, of a run down, festering sore of what passes for a 'country' when it would take many billions just to repair infrastructure to fifth world levels? Not going to happen and the most anyone will see from this bloody mess is Novorossiya expanding to the original borders of Donetsk and Lughansk Oblasti. Even that will take unbelievable monies to bring up to a passable resemblance of 'modern' life. However, this expense has already been discussed in the two oblasti and the general consensus of opinion of the leadership and rank and file is everything the oligarchs have stolen in these two areas will be nationalized, put back in running order and sold at market price. Monies will go in Government coffers and used to repair the war damage and modernize the infrastructure.

    What will actually happen remains to be seen but that's the basic game plan. Already there are some long faces in this AO amongst the visitors who are getting the idea that while they are welcome to return they will not slide right back in to their comfortable and profitable positions. It is interesting to be walking with those involved in the struggle and fighting when they are on R&R down here or recovering from wounds and a vehicle with the AA or AN or VV tag on it stops at the crosswalk to allow us to pass. The look from them as we pointedly look at the car tag and then at the generally well fed driver is priceless. They can't hold our eyes for a second.

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