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    Russian Ground Forces: News #2

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    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:46 am

    Interview Andrei Zverev, General Director of JSC "Russian electronics"  ( In Russian use Translator )

    Development of the Russian military electronics

    http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/arsenal/1381752-echo/
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:04 am

    I don't know what it is about the AEK rifle... perhaps it just looks too H&K... too plastic.

    The very large images on the previous page clearly show not very good wielding/alignment/finish on the buttstock... look at the second photo...


    It clearly has an adjustable length stock that one presumes fully retracts, but also equally clearly it has the fixed cocking handle of the AK, rear mounted peep iron sight and rails for mounting stuff, but otherwise it is just the same old same old... nothing revolutionary at all.

    The balanced recoil mechanism would be useful in burst fire but for real accuracy I would suggest single shot would be the chosen method of fire anyway.

    If the balanced recoil mechanism is the only thing in question then the AK12 could be based on the AK-107 instead of the AK-74M and you get the best of both worlds...


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    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:19 am

    They simply cant add balance recoil mechanish midway to AK-12 design they will have to change the design.

    Here is what Khathi told me at mp.net about AEK-971 advantage over AK-12 
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/printthread.php?t=197506&pp=40&page=201


    The main one is that AEK manages to keep the high-energy action of the AK family (which is largely responsible for its legendary reliability) while doing away the infamous AK kick due to its balanced action. This alone improves the rifle's accuracy almost twofold. AK-12, which doesn't have the balanced action, was, reportedly, approaching the accuracy task by reducing the moving parts energy, which indeed improved accuracy, but greatly reduced the dirt resistance — note that it's only the rumor. Then there are scores of ergonomics and usability improvements — basically, take everything what was hyped about AK-12, and add it to ZiD's design, but it's quite obviously more systematic and thought through, compared to the AK-12's rather haphazard appearance. And their new plastic lower finally features the more or less functional magwell — which AK-12 still lacks.


    I think its easy for AEK-971S to get AK-12 like feature but for AK-12 to get other way round would mean redesign
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:23 am

    I think so, too.

    The AEK-971/973 is a great design, they just should scrap the entire low quality H&K style nonsense and adopt the AK12 ergonomics, would not cost much actually would be even cheaper to have AK12 ergonomics on AEK971/973 instead of this fimsy HK crap that would be horrible to maintain.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:31 am

    It would be great if they can keep both in for the army , and it would have good export market for AK-12 and AEK-971S.

    Both are good design in their own right.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:34 am

    That is the most probable future, that russia buys both giving soldiers chance to gather experience with other weapons but also keeping long traditional and reliable weapon and company a life.

    Both weapons are worth and would be great to see both in action and service.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:36 pm

    Austin wrote:It would be great if they can keep both in for the army , and it would have good export market for AK-12 and AEK-971S.

    Both are good design in their own right.

    This is what I've been saying, if they both passed state tests  then why not just induct both in to service? It's not like they're inducting new littoral ships where logistics is a major factor, their just rifles so let the soldier ultimately decide.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:38 pm

    Austin wrote:They simply cant add balance recoil mechanish midway to AK-12 design they will have to change the design.

    Here is what Khathi told me at mp.net about AEK-971 advantage over AK-12 
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/printthread.php?t=197506&pp=40&page=201


    The main one is that AEK manages to keep the high-energy action of the AK family (which is largely responsible for its legendary reliability) while doing away the infamous AK kick due to its balanced action. This alone improves the rifle's accuracy almost twofold. AK-12, which doesn't have the balanced action, was, reportedly, approaching the accuracy task by reducing the moving parts energy, which indeed improved accuracy, but greatly reduced the dirt resistance — note that it's only the rumor. Then there are scores of ergonomics and usability improvements — basically, take everything what was hyped about AK-12, and add it to ZiD's design, but it's quite obviously more systematic and thought through, compared to the AK-12's rather haphazard appearance. And their new plastic lower finally features the more or less functional magwell — which AK-12 still lacks.


    I think its easy for AEK-971S to get AK-12 like feature but for AK-12 to get other way round would mean redesign

    But they both passed state tests, so the reliability question for either rifle is already been addressed.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:56 pm

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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:11 pm

    - Sweet! Those are some cool "ATVs"...
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:13 pm

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:33 pm

    I think its easy for AEK-971S to get AK-12 like feature but for AK-12 to get other way round would mean redesign

    Wouldn't changing both designs require a redesign?

    Kalashnikov has already developed the balanced recoil AK-108 and AK-107... how hard would it be to simply apply the AK12 changes made to the AK-74M to the AK-107?

    I would expect not very hard at all.

    We have all seen footage of the AK12 being fired and recoil really does not seem excessive.

    Personally I would like to see the AK12 and the ADS enter service as standard weapons in the Russian Military. The AEK could be used by MVD and police units and perhaps some special forces units.


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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:Wouldn't changing both designs require a redesign?

    Kalashnikov has already developed the balanced recoil AK-108 and AK-107... how hard would it be to simply apply the AK12 changes made to the AK-74M to the AK-107?

    I would expect not very hard at all.

    We have all seen footage of the AK12 being fired and recoil really does not seem excessive.

    Personally I would like to see the AK12 and the ADS enter service as standard weapons in the Russian Military. The AEK could be used by MVD and police units and perhaps some special forces units.

    This is exactly the same position that I advanced., AK-12 for widespread service, AEK for internal security. Just like you said, AEK does not a monopoly on the balanced recoil system, the AK-107 has one, but considering the AK-12 manages significant  recoil reduction without using the balanced recoil system is more impressive...which means that if Kalashnikov Concern decides to put out another AK-12 design that includes the balanced recoil system, that it's recoil may'be reduced by yet another significant margin! BTW for the people who have forgotten, here's a video showcasing the AK-12 firing at full auto, showing a significant reduction in recoil:

    ...At 5:00 minutes in full auto fire


    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:42 pm

    More details on new Man Portable Willow SAM


    New portable air defense missile system "Willow" began to enter the Russian Army




    MOSCOW, August 22. (ARMS-TASS). In the Russian army began to enter a new portable air defense systems (MANPADS), "Willow". About this ARMS-TASS reported today in Kolomna Research and Production Corporation "KBM" (MSC), which was created by the new weapons.
    According to the representative of MSC, in the moment, "Willow" is already armed Airborne Division and motorized infantry brigade of the Eastern District.


    On their tactical and technical characteristics of the complex 9K333 "Willow" is superior to all existing in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation MANPADS: 9K310 "Igla-1" 9K38 "Igla" 9K338 "Igla-S", as well as their foreign counterparts - the American "Stinger unit -1 'and Chinese QW-2.


    As explained in the company-developer of the complex, "Willow" - a new generation MANPADS, improved performance is based on the use of a fundamentally new trehspektralnoy homing (for "Needle-S" - dvuhspektralnaya) and a new instrument compartment. Had increased the sensitivity of the GOS increased its immunity. As a result, significantly expanded the affected area goals and increased efficiency of the complex at long range.


    One of the main advantages of "Willow" - high probability of defeat maloizluchayuschih targets like cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles, said the representative of MSC. These are the flying objects that are difficult to detect, but even more difficult to bring down.


    "In combat effectiveness in the world is set equal to" recruit ", - said the representative of MSC.


    The composition of MANPADS "Willow" includes: 9M336 missile, trigger 9P521, ground radar interrogator "- another's" 1L229V, mobile checkpoint 9V861, compact radar detector 1L122, 9S931 planning module, the module exploration and management 9S932-1, portable control module 9S933 fire (in the brigade included), built-in mounting kit 9S933-1 (on the division included) set automation gunners 9S935, training aids.


    Significantly improved quality, reliability complex, simplify maintenance. There is no need to conduct periodic checks of the troops with cooling GOS nitrogen. This made it possible to abandon the additional equipment, storage of nitrogen, save manpower.


    At the same time maintain a high continuity with previous MANPADS of the combat operation, operation, maintenance and training.


    Kolomenskoye MSC entered into a long-term contract with the Ministry of Defense for the supply of "Willow" and launched a full-scale production of the new MANPADS.
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    zg18

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  zg18 on Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:39 am









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    Cpt Caz

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Cpt Caz on Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:25 am

    76th Division, correct? Interesting that in these photos none of them are wearing ballistic vests
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:05 pm

    Aren't those load bearing vests ballistic?


    And:


    As explained in the company-developer of the complex, "Willow" - a new generation MANPADS, improved performance is based on the use of a fundamentally new trehspektralnoy homing (for "Needle-S" - dvuhspektralnaya) and a new instrument compartment.

    "fundamentally new three spectrum homing (seeker)."

    "for "Needle-S" - Dual Spectrum (Seeker)"


    Significantly improved quality, reliability complex, simplify maintenance. There is no need to conduct periodic checks of the troops with cooling GOS nitrogen. This made it possible to abandon the additional equipment, storage of nitrogen, save manpower.

    The fact that it no longer uses nitrogen cooling and is a three band sensor suggests that Verba (Willow) uses an uncooled QWIP thermal sensor which will make it simpler to maintain and operate and with a longer sensor/detection range.

    As mentioned above this is critical for UAVs which often have a small IR signature to begin with and are more difficult to engage because they tend to fly high and are tough to spot/detect/lock.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

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    Cpt Caz

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Cpt Caz on Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Aren't those load bearing vests ballistic?

    No, load bearing equipment doesn't offer ballistic protection, which is why usually its worn over a ballistic vest.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:Aren't those load bearing vests ballistic?


    And:


    As explained in the company-developer of the complex, "Willow" - a new generation MANPADS, improved performance is based on the use of a fundamentally new trehspektralnoy homing (for "Needle-S" - dvuhspektralnaya) and a new instrument compartment.

    "fundamentally new three spectrum homing (seeker)."

    "for "Needle-S" - Dual Spectrum (Seeker)"


    Significantly improved quality, reliability complex, simplify maintenance. There is no need to conduct periodic checks of the troops with cooling GOS nitrogen. This made it possible to abandon the additional equipment, storage of nitrogen, save manpower.

    The fact that it no longer uses nitrogen cooling and is a three band sensor suggests that Verba (Willow) uses an uncooled QWIP thermal sensor which will make it simpler to maintain and operate and with a longer sensor/detection range.

    As mentioned above this is critical for UAVs which often have a small IR signature to begin with and are more difficult to engage because they tend to fly high and are tough to spot/detect/lock.

    Thanks Garry for clarifying.

    So you mean Verba Seeker is based on QWIP or the targetting sensor of verba is of QWIP of Thermal Type.

    I suspect even the current Igla-S is deadly , I spoke in a defence exhibition to Russian contigent on Igla-S and he mentioned that it was not a digital system and hence not reprogramable on field and cannot deal with newer CM system.

    Verba I would assume is full digital system

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  acatomic on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:52 pm

    I need a little bit of help in clearifing something

    GarryB wrote:


    Significantly improved quality, reliability complex, simplify maintenance. There is no need to conduct periodic checks of the troops with cooling GOS nitrogen. This made it possible to abandon the additional equipment, storage of nitrogen, save manpower.

    The fact that it no longer uses nitrogen cooling and is a three band sensor suggests that Verba (Willow) uses an uncooled QWIP thermal sensor which will make it simpler to maintain and operate and with a longer sensor/detection range.

    As mentioned above this is critical for UAVs which often have a small IR signature to begin with and are more difficult to engage because they tend to fly high and are tough to spot/detect/lock.

    What about this:

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The missile furthest from the camera, in the first picture, and the one to the left, in the second picture, is claimed to be part of Verba (9K333).

    9M336 is claimed to be the designation for one of the missiles used by Verba.




    On the second picture we have Igla-1, Igla, Igla-S and soposedly Verba. If that's not Verba (on the left) what is it then?

    Thanks.
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Regular on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:16 am

    Cpt Caz wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Aren't those load bearing vests ballistic?

    No, load bearing equipment doesn't offer ballistic protection, which is why usually its worn over a ballistic vest.
    Whats the name for the vest? I thought it does have inserts?
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:33 am

    No, load bearing equipment doesn't offer ballistic protection, which is why usually its worn over a ballistic vest.

    Of course standard load bearing equipment does not offer ballistic protection, but this is one of the new Russian uniforms isn't it? Doesn't that integrate all sorts of things together including trauma plates in load bearing harnesses etc etc?


    So you mean Verba Seeker is based on QWIP or the targetting sensor of verba is of QWIP of Thermal Type.

    The targeting sensor and the seeker on Verba are the same thing, and yes, based on the article posted, yes I think it uses a QWIP type thermal sensor.

    I suspect even the current Igla-S is deadly , I spoke in a defence exhibition to Russian contigent on Igla-S and he mentioned that it was not a digital system and hence not reprogramable on field and cannot deal with newer CM system.

    Many of the targets it will be used against like UCAVs and light aircraft will not have sophisticated self defence capability... in fact in an anti cruise missile capability the target might not even know it is under attack till the missile hits it.

    Verba I would assume is full digital system

    I would assume so too.

    On the second picture we have Igla-1, Igla, Igla-S and soposedly Verba. If that's not Verba (on the left) what is it then?

    With the pointed nose the one on the right is definitely Igla-1, but the one on the far left is clearly not Verba.

    This is supposed to be Verba:



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    Cpt Caz

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Cpt Caz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Of course standard load bearing equipment does not offer ballistic protection, but this is one of the new Russian uniforms isn't it? Doesn't that integrate all sorts of things together including trauma plates in load bearing harnesses etc etc?

    Actually, taking a second look at the photos, it looks like they might indeed be wearing plates, but the newest Russian vests without any add-ons are so low-profile that its honestly hard to tell.  dunno
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:46 pm

    Cpt Caz wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    Of course standard load bearing equipment does not offer ballistic protection, but this is one of the new Russian uniforms isn't it? Doesn't that integrate all sorts of things together including trauma plates in load bearing harnesses etc etc?

    Actually, taking a second look at the photos, it looks like they might indeed be wearing plates, but the newest Russian vests without any add-ons are so low-profile that its honestly hard to tell.  dunno

    BTW I think I've seen your username on MP.net, the one with the Spike Spiegel/Cowboy Bebop avatar?
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    Cpt Caz

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Cpt Caz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:57 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    BTW I think I've seen your username on MP.net, the one with the Spike Spiegel/Cowboy Bebop avatar?

    Yep, that's me. Smile You have an account there?

    About 100 arms samples to be tested at Kapustin Yar range in 2015: http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/746514

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