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    VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

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    moskit

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    Su 35e vs f 22 over alaska,,

    Post  moskit on Thu May 18, 2017 3:32 pm

    http://warisboring.com/looks-like-the-russians-tried-to-lure-u-s-stealth-fighters-into-an-intel-trap/??what the Russians could have achieved from this??? russia
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu May 18, 2017 4:15 pm

    moskit wrote:http://warisboring.com/looks-like-the-russians-tried-to-lure-u-s-stealth-fighters-into-an-intel-trap/??what the Russians could have achieved from this??? russia

    Very odd operation if true, first off the SU-35s would not be using there radars full capabilities and above all the F-22s have always been carrying external tanks in that area, and an A-50, very strange, it would make more sense for Russia to modify the Bear with some sensing gear instead.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 18, 2017 9:18 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    moskit wrote:http://warisboring.com/looks-like-the-russians-tried-to-lure-u-s-stealth-fighters-into-an-intel-trap/??what the Russians could have achieved from this??? russia

    Very odd operation if true, first off the SU-35s would not be using there radars full capabilities and above all the F-22s have always been carrying external tanks in that area, and an A-50, very strange, it would make more sense for Russia to modify the Bear with some sensing gear instead.

    End goal here is to (if possible) tweak Su-35 radar to be able to properly detect low observable aircraft. That would be why they were there.

    F-22 is observable in this setup but they were probably also trying to ''separate'' aircraft signature from observable add-ons, hence A-50.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri May 19, 2017 12:09 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    moskit wrote:http://warisboring.com/looks-like-the-russians-tried-to-lure-u-s-stealth-fighters-into-an-intel-trap/??what the Russians could have achieved from this??? russia

    Very odd operation if true, first off the SU-35s would not be using there radars full capabilities and above all the F-22s have always been carrying external tanks in that area, and an A-50, very strange, it would make more sense for Russia to modify the Bear with some sensing gear instead.

    End goal here is to (if possible) tweak Su-35 radar to be able to properly detect low observable aircraft. That would be why they were there.

    F-22 is observable in this setup but they were probably also trying to ''separate'' aircraft signature from observable add-ons, hence A-50.  

    Come now PD, one's you have the data you can make the adjustments, but that data doesn't need to be gathered by the SU-35 itself.

    Yes, i got that, seeking other emissions other then RCS for Passive systems, i would still put that gear in a Bear, since Raptors don't mind flying close to one.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 19, 2017 1:07 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:..............

    Come now PD, one's you have the data you can make the adjustments, but that data doesn't need to be gathered by the SU-35 itself.

    Yes, i got that, seeking other emissions other then RCS for Passive systems, i would still put that gear in a Bear, since Raptors don't mind flying close to one.

    I'm not saying Su-35 was gathering any data of course but they were there for reference.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 19, 2017 1:26 am

    In this case, the Su-35 has a form of sensor fusion thus it would be able to pick up data from its passive systems without the F-22 being able to detect that. As well, they could fit the bear with any kind of radar system to be able to track and gather intelligence.

    Either way, chances are, the Russians gathered data.
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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 19, 2017 11:35 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    moskit wrote:http://warisboring.com/looks-like-the-russians-tried-to-lure-u-s-stealth-fighters-into-an-intel-trap/??what the Russians could have achieved from this??? russia

    Very odd operation if true, first off the SU-35s would not be using there radars full capabilities and above all the F-22s have always been carrying external tanks in that area, and an A-50, very strange, it would make more sense for Russia to modify the Bear with some sensing gear instead.

    End goal here is to (if possible) tweak Su-35 radar to be able to properly detect low observable aircraft. That would be why they were there.

    F-22 is observable in this setup but they were probably also trying to ''separate'' aircraft signature from observable add-ons, hence A-50.  

    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 19, 2017 11:58 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    That means they need closer inspection to get usable data : )
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat May 20, 2017 12:46 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    That means they need closer inspection to get usable data : )

    Yes, a good old fashion Serbian inspection. Wink
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 20, 2017 10:24 am

    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    So if they flew in Syrian air space they could be shot down with any old SAM system because radar reflectors can't be turned on and off AFAIK...

    Next someone will claim the F-117 that was shot down in the Kosovo campaign also had reflectors and was not really stealth so the shoot down does not count...

    Sounds to me like an excuse....


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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 20, 2017 11:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    So if they flew in Syrian air space they could be shot down with any old SAM system because radar reflectors can't be turned on and off AFAIK...

    Next someone will claim the F-117 that was shot down in the Kosovo campaign also had reflectors and was not really stealth so the shoot down does not count...

    Sounds to me like an excuse....

    They cant, radar reflectors are attached and can be removed on the ground.

    Well, reflectors are kinda a thing since fairly recently, to evade gathering radar signatures. Those F-22s that were in Europe recently all had em. I am just saying.
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    Isos

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Isos on Sun May 21, 2017 12:07 am

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    So if they flew in Syrian air space they could be shot down with any old SAM system because radar reflectors can't be turned on and off AFAIK...

    Next someone will claim the F-117 that was shot down in the Kosovo campaign also had reflectors and was not really stealth so the shoot down does not count...

    Sounds to me like an excuse....

    They cant, radar reflectors are attached and can be removed on the ground.

    Well, reflectors are kinda a thing since fairly recently, to evade gathering radar signatures. Those F-22s that were in Europe recently all had em. I am just saying.

    Do you have some articles ?

    The thing posted by Moskit is for F-22 based in the US so maybe they were flying without reflectors.
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    GarryB

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 21, 2017 1:51 am

    Well, reflectors are kinda a thing since fairly recently, to evade gathering radar signatures. Those F-22s that were in Europe recently all had em. I am just saying.

    You are right... in peace time away from any real threats they do carry reflectors... it means potential enemies can't capture intel like radar signatures, but more importantly it means civilian and military air controllers can see them and other civilian traffic can see them to avoid accidents.

    The thing is that you don't fly into enemy airspace with those things on...


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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 21, 2017 2:08 am

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    From what i am aware F-22s and F-35s have been flying with reflectors attached till now in areas where they could have been "inspected".

    So if they flew in Syrian air space they could be shot down with any old SAM system because radar reflectors can't be turned on and off AFAIK...

    Next someone will claim the F-117 that was shot down in the Kosovo campaign also had reflectors and was not really stealth so the shoot down does not count...

    Sounds to me like an excuse....

    They cant, radar reflectors are attached and can be removed on the ground.

    Well, reflectors are kinda a thing since fairly recently, to evade gathering radar signatures. Those F-22s that were in Europe recently all had em. I am just saying.

    Do you have some articles ?

    The thing posted by Moskit is for F-22 based in the US so maybe they were flying without reflectors.

    Just stuff of this sort: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/113970/20170505/f-22-35-stealth-fighters-evade-detection-device-makes-visible.htm
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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 21, 2017 2:11 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Well, reflectors are kinda a thing since fairly recently, to evade gathering radar signatures. Those F-22s that were in Europe recently all had em. I am just saying.

    You are right... in peace time away from any real threats they do carry reflectors... it means potential enemies can't capture intel like radar signatures, but more importantly it means civilian and military air controllers can see them and other civilian traffic can see them to avoid accidents.

    The thing is that you don't fly into enemy airspace with those things on...

    In general, yes. However apparently US has decided to use few types of minor reflectors to twist radar image of fighters in these days of, more or less peace to hide as much as possible of EW emissions and signatures.

    Rumor says multiple types of reflectors were made with different reflective surfaces to suit various needs.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun May 21, 2017 2:15 pm


    http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-06/diy-synthetic-aperture-radar-system-250

    From close proximity the details of the plane visible quite well by a radar.


    So I don't think that the lenses/ prisms help too much to hide the shape / characteristic of the plane.
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    Isos

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Isos on Sun May 21, 2017 4:41 pm


    Just stuff of this sort: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/113970/20170505/f-22-35-stealth-fighters-evade-detection-device-makes-visible.htm

    It's says the developement of such things for their 5th gen fighters started in 2010 so before F-22 didn't have them. They can always try to analyse its signature with a small radar imported in US by spies dunno

    But I think the main reason for using reflletors is because US are aware that they are not as stealth as they said. The main advantage for them of having F-22 is they can say what they want untill someone has the chance to analyse it. It's more a psychological weapon than a true fighter, it's main weapon is it's secracy not it's stealth or radar ... I mean it's 80s technology and they pretend that today's technology can't compete against it. Even the F-35 which cost 100 times more to develop ( with dev tools of today which are million times better than in the 80s as a computer today can make billions of operations per sec while in the 80s humans had to do all by themselves...) is less effective than the F-22. For me it's bullshit.
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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 21, 2017 6:50 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:<img src="http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/small_1x_/public/import/2013/images/2010/06/f14.jpg?itok=IIo17nPC" >
    http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-06/diy-synthetic-aperture-radar-system-250

    From close proximity the details of the plane visible quite well by a radar.


    So I don't think that the lenses/ prisms help too much to hide the  shape / characteristic of the plane.

    Emm... reflectors...radar...reflectors...
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun May 21, 2017 7:01 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Just stuff of this sort: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/113970/20170505/f-22-35-stealth-fighters-evade-detection-device-makes-visible.htm

    It's says the developement of such things for their 5th gen fighters started in 2010 so before F-22 didn't have them. They can always try to analyse its signature with a small radar imported in US by spies dunno

    But I think the main reason for using reflletors is because US are aware that they are not as stealth as they said. The main advantage for them of having F-22 is they can say what they want untill someone has the chance to analyse it. It's more a psychological weapon than a true fighter, it's main weapon is it's secracy not it's stealth or radar ... I mean it's 80s technology and they pretend that today's technology can't compete against it. Even the F-35 which cost 100 times more to develop ( with dev tools of today which are million times better than in the 80s as a computer today can make billions of operations per sec while in the 80s humans had to do all by themselves...) is less effective than the F-22. For me it's bullshit.

    The amount of money pumped towards aerospace and defense in the US during Reagan admin is probably unimaginable. F-22 sits on solid ground to be the dominant air superiority fighter for the USAF. At the moment no other country has the quality+numbers to compete with that. And it's not just LO features, you got powerful engines, supercruise, Mach 2, declared cruising altitude of 60,000 feet. And much more kept on the down low.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun May 21, 2017 7:18 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-06/diy-synthetic-aperture-radar-system-250

    From close proximity the details of the plane visible quite well by a radar.


    So I don't think that the lenses/ prisms help too much to hide the  shape / characteristic of the plane.

    Emm... reflectors...radar...reflectors...

    Electromagnetic radiation on different wavelength.
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    Isos

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Isos on Sun May 21, 2017 8:17 pm

    The amount of money pumped towards aerospace and defense in the US during Reagan admin is probably unimaginable. F-22 sits on solid ground to be the dominant air superiority fighter for the USAF. At the moment no other country has the quality+numbers to compete with that. And it's not just LO features, you got powerful engines, supercruise, Mach 2, declared cruising altitude of 60,000 feet. And much more kept on the down low.

    That's exactly what I said. With the cost of the F-35 you can do easily a better fighter than the F-22 even if it had great amount of money for the research. Or at least something that is close. F-35 is closer to a F-18 silent hornet than from the F-22 spécifications. If you don't have the technology money won't change anything.

    Today they have all the work done on F-22 + a far better technologies but yet they admit F-35 is worst than f-22. Both of them are from the same country, same companies worked on both planes. That's what I'm saying. For me it's suspicious.

    And like I said all the data you are providing are from US official and no other source had the chance to see closer if it was true.

    I'm not saying it's a bad fighter. It's excellent but not invincible like they discribe it evrywhere.

    PS: Reagan was the one who ordered the "star wars" plan which was a big fake. Patriot PAC-3 was meant to be a part of it and look how it is bad compare to S-400.



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    KiloGolf

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun May 21, 2017 8:38 pm

    Isos wrote:PS: Reagan was the one who ordered the "star wars" plan which was a big fake. Patriot PAC-3 was meant to be a part of it and look how it is bad compare to S-400.

    Be that as it may the Americans have the Aegis and SM-2/3/6 family to boast. Not that bad if you ask me.

    PS. The F-35 is indeed a major project and public spending disaster. Bush's decision to switch F/A-22 to F-22 and limiting its A2G capability and then Obama's decision to end F-22 production at 187 (and ban exports) were all incredibly short-sighted. Even in the Yeltzin era Russia kept the Flanker going till the money started flowing again. And turns out that decision has granted them Russians with the world second best air force (if one considers NATO as a unified force), strictly by qualitative and tech standards.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 21, 2017 8:53 pm

    I also think it has a lot to do with the modular mentality of the Russian military development. Where a jet like Su-27 has a huge potential upgrade path and evolution, while the US jets are pretty damn closed with a few exceptions. Same goes for their ground based systems like the S-300 AD and the T-72 tanks. Lots of massive potential to them in their upgrade paths.

    The idea also of building a be all end all fighter jet like F-35 was the same mistake as the F-4 was. Not saying F-4 was a bad jet. Contrary it was a good jet. Problem is it wasn't really amazing at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. F-22 is a superior fighter jet/interceptor than F-35. F-35 though is a better strike jet because it can do it while F-22 is specific to its roll like MiG-31 is.

    I don't think the day of specific task jets is over yet. Su-34 does a far better job striking and bombing than a Su-30 or 35 while Su-35 is by far a better air superiority jet than a Su-30 or Su-34. Su-30 is pretty damn good at both striking /bombing and air superiority. Just not as good as the Su-35 is at air superiority or Bombing as the Su-34. Tools for the right job. I am a fan of the Su-30 because a nation like lets say Bangladesh, Bealrus, Iran or even Syria needs a jet that is good on all accounts and thus making it cheaper than to have multiple types of jets. But for a nation like Russia, the Su-30 is a good system for operations in Syria. But for a potential grand scale war, a Su-35 and Su-34 would be far better choices.

    Of course Su-30 still hasn't reached full potential and next upgrade path with India will push the system further.
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    Militarov

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 21, 2017 11:28 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:<img src="http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/small_1x_/public/import/2013/images/2010/06/f14.jpg?itok=IIo17nPC" >
    http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-06/diy-synthetic-aperture-radar-system-250

    From close proximity the details of the plane visible quite well by a radar.


    So I don't think that the lenses/ prisms help too much to hide the  shape / characteristic of the plane.

    Emm... reflectors...radar...reflectors...

    Electromagnetic radiation on different wavelength.

    Readings of this kind with this type of sensor are close to being literally useless.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: VVS Russian Air Force: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun May 21, 2017 11:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I also think it has a lot to do with the modular mentality of the Russian military development. Where a jet like Su-27 has a huge potential upgrade path and evolution, while the US jets are pretty damn closed with a few exceptions. Same goes for their ground based systems like the S-300 AD and the T-72 tanks.  Lots of massive potential to them in their upgrade paths.

    The idea also of building a be all end all fighter jet like F-35 was the same mistake as the F-4 was. Not saying F-4 was a bad jet. Contrary it was a good jet. Problem is it wasn't really amazing at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. F-22 is a superior fighter jet/interceptor than F-35. F-35 though is a better strike jet because it can do it while F-22 is specific to its roll like MiG-31 is.

    I don't think the day of specific task jets is over yet. Su-34 does a far better job striking and bombing than a Su-30 or 35 while Su-35 is by far a better air superiority jet than a Su-30 or Su-34. Su-30 is pretty damn good at both striking /bombing and air superiority. Just not as good as the Su-35 is at air superiority or Bombing as the Su-34.  Tools for the right job. I am a fan of the Su-30 because a nation like lets say Bangladesh, Bealrus, Iran or even Syria needs a jet that is good on all accounts and thus making it cheaper than to have multiple types of jets. But for a nation like Russia, the Su-30 is a good system for operations in Syria. But for a potential grand scale war, a Su-35 and Su-34 would be far better choices.

    Of course Su-30 still hasn't reached full potential and next upgrade path with India will push the system further.

    Yeah I agree. The Flanker family is by far the most accomplished and truly multi-role fighter family there is. It's actually a proper JSF breed in every sense, 3 decades before JSF was even "a thing". You got Su-27S/P, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34 and Su-35. The Eagle/Strike Eagle comes close, but its design is nowhere near as streamlined, it the whole BWB train, it's less aerodynamically efficient and lets face it in terms of aerodynamic design, the Eagle is a good decade behind the Flanker.

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