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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

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    Benya

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Benya on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:27 am

    archangelski wrote:

    Just a question : where do you read that 9M100E-1 is 6 times heavier than 9M100E ? The two flyers give information on the dimensions and masses of the missile and those of the containers ...

    Oops, my bad. I have confused the two.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Rmf on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:02 pm

    well this is a shock , earlier mockups had imaging infrared guidance , this is command guided or active radar possibly due to canards being moved back to free up space?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:16 am

    Rmf wrote:well this is a shock , earlier mockups had imaging infrared guidance ,  this is command guided or active radar possibly due to canards being moved back to free  up space?

    That is what I am trying to find out if its command guidance or active radar

    From the devloper "Reported on the accompanying stand, the missile "included in the SAM" Triumph "is used as an active fire SAM shipborne facilities."

    It appears to me as active radar

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:20 am




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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:10 am

    It is the 9M100E, E being it is an export variant.  I doubt it will be anything more than a command guided missile. Or it could be active homing.

    I guess we will have to wait and see if anything is mentioned in the next coming days from MAKS.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:08 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:It is the 9M100E, E being it is an export variant.  I doubt it will be anything more than a command guided missile.  Or it could be active homing.

    I guess we will have to wait and see if anything is mentioned in the next coming days from MAKS.

    Its not that export model will have command guidance and local one active homing , They both would have the same guidance the Russian variant would have longer range/altitude.

    Need to find out what sort of guidance 9M100 uses
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:16 pm

    Austin wrote:

    Need to find out what sort of guidance 9M100 uses

    Does the radars of Redut and S-400 systems can use a command guided missile ? Redut is designed clearly for active radar missiles so that they could defend against salvo attacks. Command guiding would need much more processing power of the system so that they would be less good against salvos.

    I would say it's radar guided. There are also these wholes on the top behind the canards or fins (I don't know the right name of this). Maybe they are laser fuse or maybe they are for gaz ejection so that their lunch is like the one of 9M96 missiles (with the black smock).
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  archangelski on Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:15 pm

    Benya wrote:
    archangelski wrote:

    Just a question : where do you read that 9M100E-1 is 6 times heavier than 9M100E ? The two flyers give information on the dimensions and masses of the missile and those of the containers ...

    Oops, my bad. I have confused the two.

    No problems, it also happens to me sometimes...
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:28 am

    These 9M100 missiles are interesting... the 9M100 was supposed to be an IIR homing short range lock on after launch missile for all branches... called Morfei.

    The air force was going to use it as a short range AAM and also to shoot down incoming AAMs and SAMs... to be carried by helos and fighters and bombers.

    The navy was supposed to use it as a CIWS to protect ships and harbours.

    The Army was supposed to replace their SA-13s with it.

    So the question is... is this it?

    Is there an IIR guided model?

    I mean the Hermes will have lots of different versions with different seeker options and it is related directly to the Pantsir system, so having some cheap command guided missiles but also some ARH and some IR guided missiles and even some laser homing models would be useful depending on what attack is taking place at the time...

    Having IIR and ARH missiles would be useful.

    The questions are... was this planned all along and the ARH models are ready first, or was this a plan B because plan A was not coming along quick enough. Will there be a plan A now that plan B is clearly a thing now.

    Certainly the performance of optical jamming systems has improved, but having alternative guidance systems makes the systems more robust.

    At the very least it seems to be a 140kg light missile that the S-350 could use for self defence from swarm attacks.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Benya on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:37 am

    AMCXXL wrote:The two better websites with enough current data were warfare.ru/warfare.be, closed last year and milkavkaz.net written by a russian, recently locked
    I see in this forum , some information copied from milkavkaz.net
    It's really bad luck not to have copied the whole web (even in russian), despite their errors/omissions

    I don't know that who and why did downed those two sites, I have visited both of them frequently (mostly milkavkaz). It's a pity  Neutral . However I have managed to find milkavkaz in a web archive, and collected some info. I plan to get my ORBAT topics back on track by September with updates to the Ground Forces and VKS ORBAT threads, and adding the Navy's.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:These 9M100 missiles are interesting... the 9M100 was supposed to be an IIR homing short range lock on after launch missile for all branches... called Morfei.

    So when an interceptor missile hits an ICBM that is carrying a nuclear warhead, will the nuclear warhead explode upon impact ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Azi on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:56 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:These 9M100 missiles are interesting... the 9M100 was supposed to be an IIR homing short range lock on after launch missile for all branches... called Morfei.

    So when an interceptor missile hits an ICBM that is carrying a nuclear warhead, will the nuclear warhead explode upon impact ?
    No! The nuclear warhead can't explode after a kinetic hit from an interceptor. The mechanism to realize a nuclear explosion is very complex. Exact geometry is needed, it's a complex combination of hypercritical mass, neutron reflector and neutron source. But radioactive parts will still fall from sky!

    All russian systems from S-300 to S-400 have the ability to intercept ICBM warheads, but not at very good rates. But it's a military secret how good they will work in the worst case, all I know is that they have limited capabilities against nuclear ICBM warheads. Now operational is A-135 (specialist against ICBM warheads!), quite a good system but protecting only Moscow. S-500 will be good or better as american counterpart now and no restriction to ABM treaty Cool
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  jhelb on Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:58 pm

    Azi wrote:
    No! The nuclear warhead can't explode after a kinetic hit from an interceptor. The mechanism to realize a nuclear explosion is very complex. Exact geometry is needed, it's a complex combination of hypercritical mass, neutron reflector and neutron source. But radioactive parts will still fall from sky!

    "Exact geometry" in this context would refer to what ? Also, if the warhead doesn't explode like you said, how will there be a radioactive leakage ? Thanks


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  sda on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:39 pm

    jhelb wrote:... Also, if the warhead doesn't explode like you said, how will there be a radioactive leakage ? Thanks
    Because the nuclear warhead consist of plutonium or other radioactive materials, which will most probably fall as dust on earth if the warhead get destroyed or damaged. And plutonium is extremly toxic...

    Just compare to explosive materials like C4. You can shoot it, burn it, throw it out of a window, it will not explore. You need a detonator to explode it. If you put some C4 to plutonium, you have a dirty bomb, but no nuclear bomb (most propably Very Happy).

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Azi on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:52 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    No! The nuclear warhead can't explode after a kinetic hit from an interceptor. The mechanism to realize a nuclear explosion is very complex. Exact geometry is needed, it's a complex combination of hypercritical mass, neutron reflector and neutron source. But radioactive parts will still fall from sky!

    "Exact geometry" in this context would refer to what ?  Also, if the warhead doesn't explode like you said, how will there be a radioactive leakage ? Thanks

    A atomic bomb consist of two subcritical mass and neutron reflector (function of a mirror). A minor explosion catapults one of subcritical masses to the other subcritical mass, in the focus of the "neutron mirror". Now the mass is hypercritical and the neutron flux is even high enough, thanks to the neutron reflector. Uncontrolled chain reaction occurs and BAMM nuclear explosion.

    In reality the mechanism is a bit more complex. If the interceptor now collides with the nuclear warhead, with a kinetic difference of at least 15.000 km/h, the kinetic energy is soo high that the nuclear warhead is shattered in hundreds or thousands of pieces. No hypercritical mass, no existent reflector, even not the time for a accidental explosion!

    Yes of course uranium or plutonium will fall from sky if the warhead is smashed and both are not really healthy. A bit like a "dirty bomb". Plutonium is incredible dangerous, one atom can cause cancer! But with enough people, a bit time and a Geiger-Mueller counter, all radioactive pieces are collectable. Nothing compared to a nuclear explosion and the devastation, fallout etc!
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:36 pm

    As mentioned above a nuclear warhead is very complex so that it does not explode by accident when not wanted but does explode when needed.

    The simplest design is called a gun design where a mass of radioactive material sits at one end of a gun barrel inside the warhead. to detonate a small piece of radioactive material is shot down the barrel into the remaining mass... together the two pieces form critical mass and detonate.

    a HE explosion would shatter the setup and prevent critical mass from being achieve so no explosion. The HE components might explode but no actual nuclear detonation will take place.

    In more powerful devices you might have 20 pieces of nuclear material that are all blown together on detonation forming critical mass and creating a nuclear explosion. A HE impact can ruin that too... you might get a partial nuclear explosion but most likely no nuclear explosion at all.

    Most nuclear warheads are kept in air conditioned bomb bays to ensure the explosive within them detonates at the correct rate to ensure maximum yield. Even just minor damage can greatly reduce the yield of the weapon or even prevent it from exploding.

    In fact one of the best defences Russia has could be a TOR battery sitting on a concrete Silo...

    To penetrate a silo you need a ground burst... a blast wave wont cut it.

    A TOR missile hit above the ground... say at 6,000m would make any nuclear weapon ineffective at penetrating a silo.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  jhelb on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:52 pm

    Azi wrote:If the interceptor now collides with the nuclear warhead, with a kinetic difference of at least 15.000 km/h, the kinetic energy is soo high that the nuclear warhead is shattered in hundreds or thousands of pieces. No hypercritical mass, no existent reflector, even not the time for a accidental explosion!

    Interesting ! So even if the interception of the nuclear weapon is done by the A 135 which is not a hit to kill vehicle but a large thermobaric explosion even then the nuclear warhead will not explode despite the enormous heat & blast pressure, isn't it ? Thanks again.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:48 am

    High temperatures from the nuke explosion of the interceptor, plus high energy neutrons could easily render an incoming nuclear warhead a dud.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:08 am

    C-500 "Prometheus" and "Antey-4000" will be shown for the first time to the general public

    https://iz.ru/634425/dmitrii-litovkin-nikolai-surkov-aleksei-ramm/voennye-pokazhut-vozdushno-kosmicheskii-shchit

    The newest anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs) S-500 Prometheus and Antei-4000 will be presented for the first time to foreign military specialists at the exhibition-forum Army-2017, which opens tomorrow. In addition to them will be shown and anti-aircraft missile system "Buk-M3" with updated weapons. Experts believe that the novelties, which have become the basis of the unified national system of air and space defense of Russia, will cause great interest among foreign buyers.

    The Defense Ministry told Izvestia that the advanced anti-aircraft missile systems would be demonstrated in the closed part of the exposition of the Army-2017 forum. The S-500 Prometey and Antei-4000 are positioned as the main elements of the unified national air and space defense system being created in Russia. However, there is practically no official information about their real possibilities. It is known that the S-500 is capable of intercepting a wide range of aerospace purposes. Including American hypersonic aircraft, which for the characteristic trajectory of flight received the nickname "runners".

    Earlier, Alexander Vedrov, Deputy Director General for Production and Technological Policy of Almaz-Antey Concern OJSC, noted only that this weapon represents a new generation of SAMs, in which it is intended to apply the principle of separate solution of the tasks of destroying ballistic and aerodynamic targets. Their supplies to the Russian military are scheduled for 2019. At the same time, an export passport of products can be prepared, without which it is impossible to sell them to foreign customers.

    "The secrecy with respect to the S-500" Prometheus "is explained by the ambitiousness of the tasks facing it," Professor of the Academy of Military Sciences Vadim Kozyulin told Izvestia. - They must be able to shoot conventional and hypersonic cruise missiles, aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Do this both at the very surface of the Earth, and in the near space. And this already implies the destruction of low-orbit satellites and space weapons, launched from hypersonic aircraft, shock hypersonic UAVs and orbital platforms.

    The appearance of Prometheus has not yet been officially presented. Although it was accidentally discovered by the Almaz-Antey concern itself. The figure of a six-axis machine with two launch tubes was included in the company's annual calendar. A little more is known about Antey-4000. This system represents an export version of the newest S-300V4 anti-aircraft missile system. In the Russian army, this ZRS comes in 2014.

    Unlike its predecessor, the S-300V complex, the element base has been completely updated in the new machine. New super-powerful computers, new domestic software are installed. The radars of the complex became more sensitive and noise-proof. For the new system, unique long-range missiles were created. They must confidently hit targets at ranges of up to 400 km. The system also provides for less powerful missiles to combat small-sized targets within a radius of 150 km. In general, the combat effectiveness of the S-300V4 increased by 2.3 times compared with previous generations of S-300s.

    Andrei Frolov, editor-in-chief of the magazine Export of Arms, suggested in a conversation with Izvestia that the new SAMs will be demonstrated primarily to potential foreign buyers.

    - The growth of demand for air defense and missile defense systems is facilitated by the situation around the DPRK. If Pyongyang makes a new rocket, then it will quickly go to export and can be in Iran and Pakistan, "the expert said. - In addition, the experience of the war in Yemen showed that the systems existing in Saudi Arabia do not always intercept even obsolete Soviet-made missiles.

    According to Andrei Frolov, the list of possible customers is quite large. Interest in the newest SAMs can be shown by China, India, Vietnam, Algeria, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and also some monarchies of the Persian Gulf - Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar.

    "The first buyers can be Indians," the expert suggested. - Memorandum on the supply of air defense systems was signed with Delhi last fall. Negotiations on supplies and prices are currently under way.

    In April of this year, the presence in Syria of Russian S-300 and S-400 systems actually prevented a massive air campaign against government forces. At the same time, the authoritative US military publication Defense One wrote with reference to experts and representatives of the Pentagon that modern Russian air defense systems "cover" airspace over the coastal areas of the SAR for practically all air attack means.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  ATLASCUB on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:51 am

    Austin wrote:C-500 "Prometheus" and "Antey-4000" will be shown for the first time to the general public

    https://iz.ru/634425/dmitrii-litovkin-nikolai-surkov-aleksei-ramm/voennye-pokazhut-vozdushno-kosmicheskii-shchit

    The newest anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs) S-500 Prometheus and Antei-4000 will be presented for the first time to foreign military specialists at the exhibition-forum Army-2017, which opens tomorrow. In addition to them will be shown and anti-aircraft missile system "Buk-M3" with updated weapons. Experts believe that the novelties, which have become the basis of the unified national system of air and space defense of Russia, will cause great interest among foreign buyers.

    The Defense Ministry told Izvestia that the advanced anti-aircraft missile systems would be demonstrated in the closed part of the exposition of the Army-2017 forum. The S-500 Prometey and Antei-4000 are positioned as the main elements of the unified national air and space defense system being created in Russia. However, there is practically no official information about their real possibilities. It is known that the S-500 is capable of intercepting a wide range of aerospace purposes. Including American hypersonic aircraft, which for the characteristic trajectory of flight received the nickname "runners".

    Earlier, Alexander Vedrov, Deputy Director General for Production and Technological Policy of Almaz-Antey Concern OJSC, noted only that this weapon represents a new generation of SAMs, in which it is intended to apply the principle of separate solution of the tasks of destroying ballistic and aerodynamic targets. Their supplies to the Russian military are scheduled for 2019. At the same time, an export passport of products can be prepared, without which it is impossible to sell them to foreign customers.

    "The secrecy with respect to the S-500" Prometheus "is explained by the ambitiousness of the tasks facing it," Professor of the Academy of Military Sciences Vadim Kozyulin told Izvestia. - They must be able to shoot conventional and hypersonic cruise missiles, aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Do this both at the very surface of the Earth, and in the near space. And this already implies the destruction of low-orbit satellites and space weapons, launched from hypersonic aircraft, shock hypersonic UAVs and orbital platforms.

    The appearance of Prometheus has not yet been officially presented. Although it was accidentally discovered by the Almaz-Antey concern itself. The figure of a six-axis machine with two launch tubes was included in the company's annual calendar. A little more is known about Antey-4000. This system represents an export version of the newest S-300V4 anti-aircraft missile system. In the Russian army, this ZRS comes in 2014.

    Unlike its predecessor, the S-300V complex, the element base has been completely updated in the new machine. New super-powerful computers, new domestic software are installed. The radars of the complex became more sensitive and noise-proof. For the new system, unique long-range missiles were created. They must confidently hit targets at ranges of up to 400 km. The system also provides for less powerful missiles to combat small-sized targets within a radius of 150 km. In general, the combat effectiveness of the S-300V4 increased by 2.3 times compared with previous generations of S-300s.

    Andrei Frolov, editor-in-chief of the magazine Export of Arms, suggested in a conversation with Izvestia that the new SAMs will be demonstrated primarily to potential foreign buyers.

    - The growth of demand for air defense and missile defense systems is facilitated by the situation around the DPRK. If Pyongyang makes a new rocket, then it will quickly go to export and can be in Iran and Pakistan, "the expert said. - In addition, the experience of the war in Yemen showed that the systems existing in Saudi Arabia do not always intercept even obsolete Soviet-made missiles.

    According to Andrei Frolov, the list of possible customers is quite large. Interest in the newest SAMs can be shown by China, India, Vietnam, Algeria, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and also some monarchies of the Persian Gulf - Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar.

    "The first buyers can be Indians," the expert suggested. - Memorandum on the supply of air defense systems was signed with Delhi last fall. Negotiations on supplies and prices are currently under way.

    In April of this year, the presence in Syria of Russian S-300 and S-400 systems actually prevented a massive air campaign against government forces. At the same time, the authoritative US military publication Defense One wrote with reference to experts and representatives of the Pentagon that modern Russian air defense systems "cover" airspace over the coastal areas of the SAR for practically all air attack means.

    READ ALSO:

    So we won't see the promo slides...meh...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Arrow on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:08 am

    would be demonstrated in the closed part of the exposition of the Army-2017 forum. wrote:


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Tolstoy on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:04 am

    GarryB wrote:As mentioned above a nuclear warhead is very complex so that it does not explode by accident when not wanted but does explode when needed.

    China has placed S-400 batteries in its border with North Korea & US has stationed THAAD in South Korea close to North Korean border.

    Can the S-400 or THAAD intercept a North Korean Ballistic missile (either ICBM or IRBM) just a few seconds after its launch? IOW intercepting the missile within North Korean airspace before the missile can leave the atmosphere?
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:47 pm

    It says they will be demonstrated (ie fired) in a closed session, but it did not say the vehicles wont be shown to the public...

    Can the S-400 or THAAD intercept a North Korean Ballistic missile (either ICBM or IRBM) just a few seconds after its launch? IOW intercepting the missile within North Korean airspace before the missile can leave the atmosphere?

    Not likely.

    Such SAMs are located near targets, not near launch positions as there would not be enough time to launch except if there was plenty of warning time... which I doubt there would be.

    Firing ballistic missiles in North Korea against targets in Russia would be a fairly short range missile strike so the missile would not climb very high at all...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Tolstoy on Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not likely.

    Such SAMs are located near targets, not near launch positions as there would not be enough time to launch except if there was plenty of warning time... which I doubt there would be.

    Firing ballistic missiles in North Korea against targets in Russia would be a fairly short range missile strike so the missile would not climb very high at all...

    Also in the vacuum of space how do interceptor missiles like 40N6, 9M96 etc manage to travel at extremely high speed in order to hit an incoming warhead ?
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:23 am

    High speed in a vacuum is easy... the problem is manouvering in a vacuum, because physical control surfaces like fins have no effect as there is no slipstream for them to work in.

    Interception does not require speed even though speed is useful to an interceptor.

    A batsman playing cricket is standing in front of the target so he does not need to move nearly as much as the bowler does the ball.

    By positioning himself in front of the target he may have to move his bat a little to stop the ball hitting the wicket... the problem is how much is the ball moving in flight and how well does the batter position the bat in front of the path of the ball.


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