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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:52 am

    I don't agree here. If Tomahawk cruise missile fly to Russia, than it most probably have nuclear warhead. So if no other SAM in IADS is in better position, than firing an S-500 missile against it is still OK as S-500 missile is still far cheaper than destroyed town.

    Yes... it is not about trading dollar for dollar in missiles, the threat missiles are intended to hit targets and the dollar value of those targets needs to be taken into account... not firing a 1 million dollar S-500 because it is only a 1 million dollar Tomahawk and you don't want to trade dollar for dollar could result in that million dollar missile destroying Moscow or Leningrad and doing trillions of dollars damage.

    Obviously there wont be hundreds of thousands of S-500s made and important targets would include likely ICBMs and indeed in late model versions of the S-500 GPS satellites and other important satellites too.

    In many ways it is a bit like small arms fire and artillery... you see a suicide bomber from 2km distance running towards you... there might be a guy with an AK-74 1.8km away from you who could take him out with a round that costs a few cents, or you can get the sniper sitting next to you to take the shot with a 14.5mm HMG with a couple of hundred dollars worth of HMG rounds, or you could have a nearby METIS-M1 team fire a missile worth a few thousand dollars and destroy the suicide bomber and the car he is in.

    There would be a lot of factors involved including what the suicide bomber is doing... they might have noticed the nearby troops and they might be targeting them so launching a Metis would take too long to impact to be the option of choice. Equally they might not realise there are troops so close and they might be going for you... either way I would say a spray of small arms fire from the troops in close would be the cheapest and fastest response.

    Waiting for the vehicle to get closer will also reduce the shot to impact delay for the other weapons and make a kill more likely... but even at 1km a burst from 2-3 PKMs or PKPs could probably do the job too which would save the long range sniper ammo and short to medium range anti armour ammo for some something that requires that sort of munition.

    A good IADS means selection of the right system to engage. In previous wars they probably wouldn't have known what was happening but the small arms in close probably would have taken out the target anyway.
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    Sujoy

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:No one will use S-500s to shoot down UAVs

    Yes, that would be an overkill . However, if the UAV in question is a Global Hawk then why not .
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    Mike E

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:52 pm

    Even the Hawk "doesn't deserve" to be killed by a S-500. The S-400 would deliver for a lower cost...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:46 am

    If the global hawk knows there are S-400s present and remains at 500km range then S-500 might be the only interception option.

    Or if the S-500s are operating on their own, perhaps with TOR and Pantsir-S1 defending them primarily against ballistic threats and an F-22 is detected at 200km range then of course it will be worth a shot.

    Indeed if a B-2 is detected it will also be worth a shot too.
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    GarryB

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    Aircrafts ECMs: Radar jammers and deception capabilities

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:06 pm

    Standoff mainlobe jamming should be very difficult to deal with, even with advanced radars.

    For such an operation you would need enormous power... which means a very large aircraft... and the problem of fundamental physics... the closer you get your jammer to the source the more effective it becomes.

    trying to jam an S-300PMU1 from outside 150km will probably lack power to be effective... trying to do it from less than 150km will get you a missile up your ying yang....

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Standoff mainlobe jamming should be very difficult to deal with, even with advanced radars.

    For such an operation you would need enormous power... which means a very large aircraft... and the problem of fundamental physics... the closer you get your jammer to the source the more effective it becomes.

    trying to jam an S-300PMU1 from outside 150km will probably lack power to be effective... trying to do it from less than 150km will get you a missile up your ying yang....

    I'm not sure what you mean...

    As far as I know, it's the other way around, jammers become more effective with increased range, because radar signal becomes weaker.

    And, if you think about it, stealth coating also weakens the return signal, so stealth aircrafts, vehicles, ships are not only more difficult to detect, but they can use their ECM more effectively too.

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    Mike E

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:If the global hawk knows there are S-400s present and remains at 500km range then S-500 might be the only interception option.

    Or if the S-500s are operating on their own, perhaps with TOR and Pantsir-S1 defending them primarily against ballistic threats and an F-22 is detected at 200km range then of course it will be worth a shot.

    Indeed if a B-2 is detected it will also be worth a shot too.
    I can agree with that...

    Same.

    B-2 should always be a "high priority" target, at least until its replacement arrives.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:51 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Standoff mainlobe jamming should be very difficult to deal with, even with advanced radars.

    For such an operation you would need enormous power... which means a very large aircraft... and the problem of fundamental physics... the closer you get your jammer to the source the more effective it becomes.

    trying to jam an S-300PMU1 from outside 150km will probably lack power to be effective... trying to do it from less than 150km will get you a missile up your ying yang....

    I'm not sure what you mean...

    As far as I know, it's the other way around, jammers become more effective with increased range, because radar signal becomes weaker.

    And, if you think about it, stealth coating also weakens the return signal, so stealth aircrafts, vehicles, ships are not only more difficult to detect, but they can use their ECM more effectively too.

     - Don't forget that "jammers" act like radar systems themselves. So at longer range, the jamming signal should be weaker.

     - That makes no sense at all. RAM doesn't help ECM countermeasures in any way, all it does is absorb signals.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:00 pm

    Mike E wrote:
     - Don't forget that "jammers" act like radar systems themselves. So at longer range, the jamming signal should be weaker.

     - That makes no sense at all. RAM doesn't help ECM countermeasures in any way, all it does is absorb signals.

    Weaker radar return signal= easier to jam.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:32 pm

    That's not what I'm saying... Jamming signals also weaken at long range, so it is an all around tradeoff. Also, in general, what makes an aircraft easy to jam is how advanced its radar system really is. With AESA now popping up in all sorts of jets, jamming just got that much harder...

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:47 pm

    Mike E wrote:That's not what I'm saying... Jamming signals also weaken at long range, so it is an all around tradeoff. Also, in general, what makes an aircraft easy to jam is how advanced its radar system really is. With AESA now popping up in all sorts of jets, jamming just got that much harder...

    What on earth are you talking about, what tradeoff?  Smile 
    Yes, jamming signals weaken over distance, but do you realize that at the same time radar signals must travel TWICE the distance?
    And that's not even taking into account RCS of illuminated objects, which never reflects energy waves 100 percent.



    You know what, maybe you should just (re)learn a thing or two about ECM in the first place.
    I'd suggest reading Tom Clacy's "Red storm rising". The chapter "Dance of the vampires" nicely provides a basic understanding on how jamming works. Good luck Smile
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    Werewolf

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:06 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Mike E wrote:That's not what I'm saying... Jamming signals also weaken at long range, so it is an all around tradeoff. Also, in general, what makes an aircraft easy to jam is how advanced its radar system really is. With AESA now popping up in all sorts of jets, jamming just got that much harder...

    What on earth are you talking about, what tradeoff?  Smile 
    Yes, jamming signals weaken over distance, but do you realize that at the same time radar signals must travel TWICE the distance?
    And that's not even taking into account RCS of illuminated objects, which never reflects energy waves 100 percent.



    You know what, maybe you should just (re)learn a thing or two about ECM in the first place.
    I'd suggest reading Tom Clacy's "Red storm rising". The chapter "Dance of the vampires" nicely provides a basic understanding on how jamming works. Good luck Smile

    Learning something about reality by reading Tom Clancy's russophobic fantasies is like learning surgery by watching Scrubs.
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    Mike E

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:55 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Mike E wrote:That's not what I'm saying... Jamming signals also weaken at long range, so it is an all around tradeoff. Also, in general, what makes an aircraft easy to jam is how advanced its radar system really is. With AESA now popping up in all sorts of jets, jamming just got that much harder...

    What on earth are you talking about, what tradeoff?  Smile 
    Yes, jamming signals weaken over distance, but do you realize that at the same time radar signals must travel TWICE the distance?
    And that's not even taking into account RCS of illuminated objects, which never reflects energy waves 100 percent.



    You know what, maybe you should just (re)learn a thing or two about ECM in the first place.
    I'd suggest reading Tom Clacy's "Red storm rising". The chapter "Dance of the vampires" nicely provides a basic understanding on how jamming works. Good luck Smile

    A Jamming signal is a radar signal! As such, both "jamming signals" and "radar signals" weaken over distance. That is all I was trying to say.
     - What the heck are you talking about? Like I (just) said, radar signals are jamming signals and vice-versa. The only real difference is that so called "jamming signals" are typically very "powerful and focus", whereas radar signals are "weaker and spread out".
    I still don't get what your trying to say, RCS has little or nothing to do with jamming.

    Suggesting that I read Clancy novels is equal to recommending the Onion...
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    Werewolf

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:02 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Suggesting that I read Clancy novels is equal to recommending the Onion...

    The Onion is satire...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:26 am

    That is the whole point... Basing ECM knowledge on some old fiction book is a joke.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:05 am

    Mike E wrote:That is the whole point... Basing ECM knowledge on some old fiction book is a joke.

    Well, some base their history education on fictional books, too.

    Like George Carlin said

    There are religious people who believe there is an invisible man living in the sky but when they see park bench with a sign on it which says "WET PAINT" they have to touch it to believe it is still wet.
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:26 am

    As far as I know, it's the other way around, jammers become more effective with increased range, because radar signal becomes weaker.

    The purpose of the jammer is to blind the radar... not so much to conceal the signal from the jammer aircraft. If you want to conceal the signal from the jammer aircraft... you start by not jamming.

    And, if you think about it, stealth coating also weakens the return signal, so stealth aircrafts, vehicles, ships are not only more difficult to detect, but they can use their ECM more effectively too.

    Replace radar emissions with light. If every target was painted white on a black background then stealth is painting your aircraft black... you can still pick it out but only at much closer distances.

    A black painted target shining lights at the guy with the search light will only attract attention. It would only make sense if you flew in close with an intense and powerful beam and tried to blind the searchers... which is likely to get you shot down by an S-300 battery.

    Remember a SAM battery has a range of assets it can use to find and engage targets and its ESM support vehicles can easily detect jamming and locate the source for targeting with SAMs.

    That makes no sense at all. RAM doesn't help ECM countermeasures in any way, all it does is absorb signals.

    Not strictly true... send in some B-2 bombers and a few jammer aircraft to put up general noise jamming and the B-2s will become harder to spot... but against a competent enemy with the right equipment and you can pretty much kiss those jammer aircraft goodbye.

    As far as I know there are 122mm calibre decoy rockets that can be carried in a five tube launcher by Soviet and Russian aircraft. Normally used to penetrate hardened aircraft shelters the S-130 rocket launcher can be used by SEAD aircraft to send decoy "aircraft" into danger areas with the launch aircraft monitoring which radars turn on and the locations and types of radars and SAMs etc etc.

    Weaker radar return signal= easier to jam.

    Using stealth you are trying to remain unnoticed. By jamming you reveal your presence immediately and over a few seconds your location could be triangulated fairly accurately.

    I'd suggest reading Tom Clacy's "Red storm rising". The chapter "Dance of the vampires" nicely provides a basic understanding on how jamming works. Good luck

    Perhaps we could follow that with reading Mein Kampf to learn about the Jewish religion?

    Like George Carlin said

    A great philosopher of our time...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:35 am

    GarryB wrote:
    As far as I know, it's the other way around, jammers become more effective with increased range, because radar signal becomes weaker.

    The purpose of the jammer is to blind the radar... not so much to conceal the signal from the jammer aircraft. If you want to conceal the signal from the jammer aircraft... you start by not jamming.

    And, if you think about it, stealth coating also weakens the return signal, so stealth aircrafts, vehicles, ships are not only more difficult to detect, but they can use their ECM more effectively too.

    Replace radar emissions with light. If every target was painted white on a black background then stealth is painting your aircraft black... you can still pick it out but only at much closer distances.

    A black painted target shining lights at the guy with the search light will only attract attention. It would only make sense if you flew in close with an intense and powerful beam and tried to blind the searchers... which is likely to get you shot down by an S-300 battery.

    Remember a SAM battery has a range of assets it can use to find and engage targets and its ESM support vehicles can easily detect jamming and locate the source for targeting with SAMs.

       That makes no sense at all. RAM doesn't help ECM countermeasures in any way, all it does is absorb signals.

    Not strictly true... send in some B-2 bombers and a few jammer aircraft to put up general noise jamming and the B-2s will become harder to spot... but against a competent enemy with the right equipment and you can pretty much kiss those jammer aircraft goodbye.

    As far as I know there are 122mm calibre decoy rockets that can be carried in a five tube launcher by Soviet and Russian aircraft. Normally used to penetrate hardened aircraft shelters the S-130 rocket launcher can be used by SEAD aircraft to send decoy "aircraft" into danger areas with the launch aircraft monitoring which radars turn on and the locations and types of radars and SAMs etc etc.

    Weaker radar return signal= easier to jam.

    Using stealth you are trying to remain unnoticed. By jamming you reveal your presence immediately and over a few seconds your location could be triangulated fairly accurately.

    I'd suggest reading Tom Clacy's "Red storm rising". The chapter "Dance of the vampires" nicely provides a basic understanding on how jamming works. Good luck

    Perhaps we could follow that with reading Mein Kampf to learn about the Jewish religion?

    Like George Carlin said

    A great philosopher of our time...

    Ok, thanks for correcting me! Very Happy 

    That is another thing, stealth aircraft + jamming = "stealth" becomes useless.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:38 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Mike E wrote:That is the whole point... Basing ECM knowledge on some old fiction book is a joke.

    Well, some base their history education on fictional books, too.

    Like George Carlin said

    There are religious people who believe there is an invisible man living in the sky but when they see park bench with a sign on it which says "WET PAINT" they have to touch it to believe it is still wet.
     - That is unfortunately true... I know some people myself that believe anything they are told, from anywhere!

    I'm a christian myself, but I perfectly agree with that quote.  Neutral

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:04 pm

    Well, all I can say is " Rolling Eyes ".

    If you purposefully ignore such simple arguments, like highschool grade subjects on EM wave properties, then I'm afraid this discussion is over.

    --------------------

    Mike E wrote:That is another thing, stealth aircraft + jamming = "stealth" becomes useless.

    Gee, I wonder why F-35 is having a jammer, isn't it supposed to be stealth or something?  Rolling Eyes
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    sepheronx

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:46 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Well, all I can say is " Rolling Eyes ".

    If you purposefully ignore such simple arguments, like highschool grade subjects on EM wave properties, then I'm afraid this discussion is over.

    --------------------

    Mike E wrote:That is another thing, stealth aircraft + jamming = "stealth" becomes useless.

    Gee, I wonder why F-35 is having a jammer, isn't it supposed to be stealth or something?  Rolling Eyes

    Jammer to compliment radar. So it may not be active the whole time the f-35 is flying but only when its radar is turned on. Since passive sensors can pick up pretty much any kind of radar signal from 100's of km away and thus making stealth pointless. Majority of jammers are using radiowavepulses in a specific ghz band in order to jam or screw up the enemies radar frquency by distorting what the return information from the radar sees.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:03 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Majority of jammers are using radiowavepulses in a specific ghz band in order to jam or screw up the enemies radar frquency by distorting what the return information from the radar sees.

    Precisely Cool

    -------------
    BTW, stealth is not a revolution, it's evolution. That means, fundamental operating procedures, for example, for 4 and 5 gen aircrafts remain essentially the same.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:39 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Well, all I can say is " Rolling Eyes ".

    If you purposefully ignore such simple arguments, like highschool grade subjects on EM wave properties, then I'm afraid this discussion is over.

    --------------------

    Mike E wrote:That is another thing, stealth aircraft + jamming = "stealth" becomes useless.

    Gee, I wonder why F-35 is having a jammer, isn't it supposed to be stealth or something?  Rolling Eyes

    Never said that they shouldn't have "jamming functionality", but rather that it "exposes" them. - One of the main reasons the F-35 was built in the first place...
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:41 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Well, all I can say is " Rolling Eyes ".

    If you purposefully ignore such simple arguments, like highschool grade subjects on EM wave properties, then I'm afraid this discussion is over.

    --------------------

    Mike E wrote:That is another thing, stealth aircraft + jamming = "stealth" becomes useless.

    Gee, I wonder why F-35 is having a jammer, isn't it supposed to be stealth or something?  Rolling Eyes

    Jammer to compliment radar. So it may not be active the whole time the f-35 is flying but only when its radar is turned on. Since passive sensors can pick up pretty much any kind of radar signal from 100's of km away and thus making stealth pointless. Majority of jammers are using radiowavepulses in a specific ghz band in order to jam or screw up the enemies radar frquency by distorting what the return information from the radar sees.
    Here I thought that jamming signals had to be on a similar (or the same) frequency in order to have any effect.... Is that true?

    Anyway, AESA and other technologies are much more effective against jamming in the first place. I've heard that with modern technology, radar systems can/will be able to tell if found signals are so called "jamming signals" or not.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:24 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Never said that they shouldn't have "jamming functionality", but rather that it "exposes" them. - One of the main reasons the F-35 was built in the first place...

    And which platform jammers DOESN'T expose?

    "For both sides, the fundamental choice was whether or not to radiate, to use their radar
    transmitters. Either choice carried benefits and dangers, and there was no "best" solution to the
    problem. Nearly every American ship carried powerful air-search radars that could locate the raid
    two hundred or more miles away. But those radar signals could be detected at an even greater
    range, generating a return signal, that would potentially allow the Soviets to circle the formation,
    pinpoint it, then converge in from all points of the compass.
    The game was hide and seek, played over a million square miles of ocean. The losers died."

    That's a quote from "red storm rising", a book you so detest.

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