Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Share
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:22 am

    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.
    avatar
    Airman

    Posts : 361
    Points : 405
    Join date : 2016-10-15
    Location : Turkey

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Airman on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:22 am



    lol
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6102
    Points : 6206
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:52 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.

    Launching 5 standard size satellites still doesn't justify price-tag of superheavy rocket. Cheaper to just use couple of medium rockets.

    Only way for superheavy to make sense is launching massive payloads and those are still not not around.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:05 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.

    When would Russia need to launch 5x Glonass simultaneously?  

    Ever hear the phrase "putting too many eggs in one basket"?  Remember what happened in 2013 with a Proton failure which resulted in the loss of 3x Uragan-M?

    It makes no sense to spend billions so that you can attempt with 1 rocket what you routinely do with 2-3.

    You don't need a SHLV unless you are launching unusually massive space station modules, heavy lunar manned craft, or manned mars missions.  Russia won't be doing these until the late 2020s or early 2030s, and truth be told, neither will Uncle Scam.  Musk isn't going to be funding any worthwhile missions to Mars, despite the endless fan-boi hoop-la and self-promotional vanity projects.  Red Dragon?  Don't make me laugh...  NASA won't be granted the funds for similar ventures anytime soon, and they are more interested in space science in any case (which is the real pay-off. and is where NASA truly excels like no-one else can).

    In short, a SHLV is a necessary tool, but lets not kid ourselves that it will fly regularly or be a "game-changer"  (How the Muskians love that phrase...).  Russia needs to focus on what matters.  Complete the Angara manufacturing complex and build a Vostochny launch facility so that they can entertain commercial launches and finally retire Proton (can't do that from a military Cosmodrome in the far North), get Soyuz-5 and Federation flying from Baikonour, then Vostochny.  A few space science missions such as the lunar robots being prepped for 2019-22 launches are also a priority.  In my (practical) mind, the successful launch of Luna 25/26/27 is far more important than debut of a heavy launcher with a PR payload with zero science returns.

    Vann7

    Posts : 3526
    Points : 3638
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:27 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    BTW Vann, if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?  The Russian Soyuz-V based SHLV may not fly for another 9-10 years, but the lunar Federation crewed vehicle won't be ready until then, so the timescale isn't an issue in my book.  Russia has a lot more important priorities...  you know the sort of strategic achievements that drive the US Ruling Class cunts wild with impotent rage as their full-spectrum dominance fades away day by day. Very Happy

    for what RUssia need a  heavy space rocket??? , russia could do a thousands of things..
    ===========================================================

    1) deploy a Russian only heavy space station in space that could be used for civilians or military purposes
    at will ,in case relations with the west totally breaks.. ie.. that US start deploying nukes in space aiming at Russia.
    Russia needs to be prepared for space . US military already have said ,they seeking a full spectrum domination
    of space to deny enemies the use of space.
     
    2)A Giant Lazer/energy weapon could be deployed in that space station to shutdown nukes.

    3) It could be used to sabotage American/NATO satelites.. in case Russia goes to war  
    US will have no way to know what is inside the space station and the payloads russia takes there.  Cool

    -also a heavy rocket could be used to lift  heavy space defenses ,for the space station..
    like S-500s /S-600s in space.. to protect Russia satellites and space station. But also to intercept nukes
    from space ,in mid orbit ,way before they start descending. Cool

    4)It could be used for a manned mission to moon and mars or beyond.. or to build a base in mars..

    5)For civilian Tourism.. Russia can create a new industry ,space tourism for Rich people.

    6)It can be used as a base in space to build a giant space shuttle for space travel.. So Cosmonauts
      travel in a light cheap rocket to the Russian super space station and from there board a space shuttle
      to the moon or mars.

    7)For significantly boost Russia space industry this create jobs in very high tech business ,and this attract investors
    and help Russia raise its image in the world as a leader in space.

    8)For business ,business and more business.. advertising for example... western companies will pay
    billions for Russia in adversing..

    9)space tourism..at major scale..

    There will be problems at first to implement any of those things ,but if Russia jumps early in the race to the moon.
    they will solve the issues earlier than the west.

    The thing is , that you need first to build the space rockets ,and after you have then.. the needs for it will show up.
    It could be used for mining in the moon Helium-3.. the most expensive material known by man.. is more expensive than diamonds or gold. Since Helium can be used to produce free energy. So if Russia had the heavy rockets
    know.. it will not need to wait for year 2025 or 2030 or year 3,000 for leaving the earth orbit and traveling with
    humans in space. Russia do have a lot of money .. they in sports alone ,they have spend 51+11 billions already
    in Sports and olympics.. between Sochi and FIFA.  and now Russia signed for a super fast train to china for $200 billions. So Russia can get a lot of money ,when it really wants to do something.. but Putin is not taking seriously
    the Space race. he don't see how much damage he does to Russia world image ,by allowing Americans to steal the show there...  Putin complains of Russia not being taken seriously in the world its interest.. and this is consequence of him not doing anything to take Russia into a leading position in space and in other meaningful business.

    Putin is doing wrong in relying in sports for boosting patriotism in Russia. he will do far better with a leadership in space. A moon manned landing today in space with a heavy rocket ,will be like 100x sochis olympics victories.
    because will be written in history books.. and in some cases claimed to be the first REAL moon landing ,since is questioned even among American citizens ,if the moon landing ever happened or not... So Putin needs to boost morale of its citizens ,by turning Russia into the leader  in space.. This not only will significantly help the economy .because will boost investments from the west.. in projects offers.. for the heavy rocket.. but also will help the Russian space industry ,take it to a whole new level . with travels to Jupiter and saturn.. it will make every Russian citizen more proud than ever of their country. it will boost Russia economy and help Russia influence the west.. for more cooperation with Russia instead of their hostilities. it will also silence Russian opposition too.. because the celebrations will silence their protest. A very strong Space Program will have endless benefits ,endless possibilities..  

    One of the very few things soviets did right.. was their space program.. Gagarin first flight to space ,made Russia
    so popular in the world ,so celebrated, that even the queen of england wanted to meet Russian cosmonauts.
    Soviets flew to Venus , to Moon and mars ,with probes. they build rovers robots in the moon. and all this things
    motivated Russians to study engineering and science.. So investing in space , will bring many benefits short term,
    medium and long term.. Russia today for example benefits enourmously of Soviet Space program.. since Soyus
    is nearly perfect ,space rocket ,that they have mastered.   Building a heavy space rocket now..and not in year 2030,
    will help Russia to master ,heavy space rockets early on the race... and take the lead in important space exploration.
    like it will be moon ,mars or its satellites. In short a heavy rocket and dominating in space ,could significantly boost
    Russia image in the world and Russia influence ,promote patriotism more than a thousands of olympics ,and also
    promote good relations with the west.. because Leadership in space is one of the very few things Americans respect
    from Russia and force them to cooperate. So Russia needs absolute leadership and totally outmatch NASA and SpaceX
    in space.. this latter is also part of American government funding.. so is part of US space program too.

    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:for what RUssia need a  heavy space rocket??? , russia could do a thousands of things..
    ===========================================================

    1) deploy a Russian only heavy space station in space that could be used for civilians or military purposes
    at will ,in case relations with the west totally breaks.. ie.. that US start deploying nukes in space aiming at Russia.
    Russia needs to be prepared for space . US military already have said ,they seeking a full spectrum domination
    of space to deny enemies the use of space.
     
    2)A Giant Lazer/energy weapon could be deployed in that space station to shutdown nukes.

    3) It could be used to sabotage American/NATO satelites.. in case Russia goes to war  
    US will have no way to know what is inside the space station and the payloads russia takes there.  Cool

    4)It could be used for a manned mission to moon and mars.. or to build a base in mars..

    5)For civilian Tourism.. Russia can create a new industry ,space tourism for Rich people.

    6)It can be used as a base in space to build a giant space shuttle for space travel.. So Cosmonauts
      travel in a light cheap rocket to the Russian super space station and from there board a space shuttle
      to the moon or mars.

    7)For significantly boost Russia space industry this create jobs in very high tech business ,and this attract investors
    and help Russia raise its image in the world as a leader in space.

    The thing is , that you need first to build the space rockets ,and after you have then.. the needs for it will show up.
    It could be used for mining in the moon Helium-3.. the most expensive material known by man.. is more expensive than diamonds or gold. Since Helium can be used to produce free energy. So if Russia had the heavy rockets
    know.. it will not need to wait for year 2025 or 2030 or year 3,000 for leaving the earth orbit and traveling with
    humans in space. Russia do have a lot of money .. they in sports alone ,they have spend 51+11 billions already
    in Sports and olympics.. between Sochi and FIFA.  and now Russia signed for a super fast train to china for $200 billions. So Russia can get a lot of money ,when it really wants to do something.. but Putin is not taking seriously
    the Space race. he don't see how much damage he does to Russia world image ,by allowing Americans to steal the show there...  Putin complains of Russia not being taken seriously in the world its interest.. and this is consequence of him not doing anything to take Russia into a leading position in space and in other meaningful business.

    Putin is doing wrong in relying in sports for boosting patriotism in Russia. he will do far better with a leadership in space. A moon manned landing today in space with a heavy rocket ,will be like 100x sochis olympics victories.
    because will be written in history books.. and in some cases claimed to be the first REAL moon landing ,since is questioned even among American citizens ,if the moon landing ever happened or not... So Putin needs to boost morale of its citizens ,by turning Russia into the leader  in space.. This not only will significantly help the economy .because will boost investments from the west.. in projects offers.. for the heavy rocket.. but also will help the Russian space industry ,take it to a whole new level . with travels to Jupiter and saturn.. it will make every Russian citizen more proud than ever of their country. it will boost Russia economy and help Russia influence the west.. for more cooperation with Russia instead of their hostilities. it will also silence Russian opposition too.. because the celebrations will silence their protest. A very strong Space Program will have endless benefits ,endless possibilities..  

    One of the very few things soviets did right.. was their space program.. Gagarin first flight to space ,made Russia
    so popular in the world ,so celebrated, that even the queen of england wanted to meet Russian cosmonauts.
    Soviets flew to Venus , to Moon and mars ,with probes. they build rovers robots in the moon. and all this things
    motivated Russians to study engineering and science.. So investing in space , will bring many benefits short term,
    medium and long term.. Russia today for example benefits enourmously of Soviet Space program.. since Soyus
    is nearly perfect ,space rocket ,that they have mastered.   Building a heavy space rocket now..and not in year 2030,
    will help Russia to master ,heavy space rockets early on the race... and take the lead in important space exploration.
    like it will be moon ,mars or its satellites.


    Manned military space stations are not worth the cost.  The Soviets trialed the Almaz stations and concluded that unmanned satellites are superior and vastly cheaper.

    What will this "heavy Russian only station" actually do in orbit?  What activities will be performed and how will those activities justify the huge cost of building and operating such a facility?  Bio-med and materials fabrication is mostly a bust - lots of nice promises but still after 30 years no useful materials that make a difference.  Recon and remote sensing is best done by unmanned satellites (humans move around and cause the station to move, degrading teleascope pointing accuracy and image quality).

    Orbital directed energy weapon to shoot down nukes?  Why not simply expand ground-fired missile-based BMD?  Unless this hypothetical  laser station is loitering over the North pole ICBM alley (ie a physical impossibility) and unless it can target and destroy multiple warheads/missile buses every second, its hardly going to make a difference.  Lets not even consider teh cost in designing, manufacturing, launching, assembling, testing, operating, maintaining...  and all teh political issues such as HATOstani accusations of "Russian aggression" and triggering a space Arms Race...

    ASAT is best done using direct ascent rockets with maneuverable kill-stages, based in silos and ready at a moments notice.  Orbital directed energy platforms would be inefficient, mega expensive and politically destabilizing.

    Manned missions to Moon are definitely a real possibility, but will be expensive.  International co-operation is the best approach, certainly with China.  Eurotrash and their Murican leash-holders cannot be trusted at this point in time.

    Mars is 100x times are difficult and expensive.  Forget Muskian self-fonding with his Red Dragon fantasy garbage.  Manned missions to Mars will need to be high-budget and well engineered with multiple redundancies built in to cope with inevitable failures.  The idea of doing it on the cheap with a modified LEO Dragon and volunteers with the "Right Stuff" and Murican "can-do" attitude like a 21st century version of "go West young man" is so laughable as to elicit tears...

    Space "tourism" sounds nice, but the problem is that isn't anywhere to really go....  Most peoples idea of a holiday is not taking a long uncomfortable expensive flight to a remote airport, then spend a week in a small cabin looking out the window, and then returning home by another long cramped flight...  yet this is exactly what a flight to/from an orbital station comprises.  Super wealthy might choose to do it once or maybe twice, but they won't make a habit of it.  Sub-orbital hops SpaceShip One/two style isn't much different, and it only takes one high-profile accident and multiple dead rich people to permanently take off the gloss and start never-ending law suites that sap an operators will to live...

    Shuttles to Moon or Mars?  Why not board a Q-dimensional quantum teleporter and go to the Andromeda spiral?  I hear the floating oceans of Zygma 4 are beautiful when the solar whales re-enter the atmosphere to start the breeding season...   Laughing

    Helium 3 is a fucking joke.  Strip mine the upper few inches of the lunar regolith and somehow extract the estimated 20 ppb of He-3? We couldn't do that effectively on Earth, let alone on the moon.

    Putin...  nah, not gonna bother go there.  

    Bottom line - this planet is the only home we have and our efforts should go into making it into as good as place to live as we can manage.  Manned space is a bottomless black-hole money-pit that will NEVER provide a net positive return on investment.  Explore the solar system with robots by all means, and if we find anything truly remarkable (like fossils on Mars) I'm all in favour of sending manned expeditions on focused scientific missions, but humans living on desolate planets simply because they are there?  Nope, thats a a fools errand.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3407
    Points : 3532
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:49 am

    Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers. It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses. This thing would not be anything like we have so far. It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds. It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it
    can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone. Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such
    systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams. We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams. Using a photon
    population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic. The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted
    through fibers. But this has clear limitations. Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy.
    But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and
    controlled system.

    As of 2018, the only ABM solution is ground based, nuke tipped interceptors. It is vastly cheaper and actually physically possible to
    deploy a vast number of such interceptors. Of course, an arms race would develop where the number of ICBMs and warheads would be
    increased in a commensurate pattern. But at least this way, Washington would have no dreams of being able to launch a decapitating
    first strike. MAD would rule. This is why all strategic nuclear arms limitations treaties should be burned. They give Uncle Scumbag the
    false hope of starting a winnable nuclear war.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6102
    Points : 6206
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:52 am

    Vann throwing shit at the wall as usual but constantly ignoring fact that all that shit costs money, same money that is used for development of super-heavy rocket, manned spacecraft and ground infrastructure for it.

    I assume that there was Putin somewhere in there but I didn't read the whole thing ( what little I did read was 90% BS anyway...)
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:03 pm

    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy. Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it. Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3407
    Points : 3532
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:00 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams. They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons). They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.

    Vann7

    Posts : 3526
    Points : 3638
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:44 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    You say space is expensive.. but you don't see the benefits are orders in magnitude higher and will pay back
    multiplied by x10 or by x100... the cost of the travel..  Have you see in Super bowl in US.. just fucking stupid
    sports .. how much money advertising there cost for just 30 seconds?  Big companies pay hundreds of millions
    at times for just 30 seconds of advertising..  

    So if this is just a stupid game ,of 2 teams trying to get the championship.  Imagine how much more
    expensive will be space advertising.. if Russia had a moon base in the moon.. with 2-3 billions of human
    beings watching on live across all the planet ,every moment of Russians cosmonauts in space ? and the construction
    of the base.. the hours and hours people will spend watching it.. People will be talking about it.. in every country.
    Music will be made around Russia moon base... movies.. etc.. is endless the PROMOTION Russia will get
    as a leader of the world.. and the nation to follow .... Did is HUGGGGGEEEEE!!!  

    It have been told ,that in business.. what you don't promote.. don't advertise , and people is not aware .DONT SALE.
    So Russia problem is a problem of Advertising.. and of leadership too.. By leading in space ,outmatching Americans..
    this will have many nations ,many.. including Americans and Europeans , very interested in closer business relations with Russia ,do benefit from Russia leadership in space.  A big Space station ,can be used as a starting point ,as a launching pad for Russia domination of space and space travels and spaceship for travel. and the military uses are endless too.. Rail Guns ,lazer guns, Energy guns.. etc..  as early warning system of any missile launch in the world..
    to manipulate Russia weather.. etc..   By leading Russia in space ,this will also promote Tourism in Russia, it will boost
    Russia economy 10x fold.. because everyone in the world ,,will like to know more about Russia. Is all about influence,advertising your nation as an alternative or as the real leader of the world.. This will also have major impact
    in the American Empire.. it will reduce it significantly and disband NATO little by little.. because Nations and people follow leaders.. and not the followers. Russia follows the american system..and allows them to lead in every thing that the world likes , and later Russia /putin is surprised why Russia is not taken seriously and have no allies in the world.
    Russia leading in space will be another reason for americans Leaders to make peace with Russia. because Russia now will make the demands and the rules for Allowing americans to participate in Russia out of earth orbit projects. Cooperation only when american drops sanctions Russia will be in position to say.. So the avoiding of a major
    war ,is another benefit.. Russia will be able to use its space program as a carrot to lure its enemies away from its hostile behavior. and this will also significantly destroy Russian opposition..no euromaidans, because again.. Society always cheer leaders and nations that leads the world into the future.  This also will destroy the Russian opposition in Ukraine.. People will want to return to Russia , when they see ,Russia is more advanced and developed  nation than any country in Europe or the west.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 am

    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.    

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams.   They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons).   They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.  

    Yep, the neutral particle beam... kinda like an artificial beam of cosmic rays, and we know how damaging a high-energy cosmic ray hit can be against microprocessors and memory circuits  attack   Not only do neutral particles not self-repel as you noted, they are also impervious to deflection by magnetic fields.  This means that magnetic screens cannot be used for defense, and more importantly, magnetospheres from planetary bodies will not cause targeting issues.

    Such a weapon would be an order of magnitude harder to develop (neutrons can't be focused AFAIK), beam power output would likely be orders of magnitude lower, and would be useless in a planetary atmosphere, but conceivably it could use a nuclear reactor to generate a "low" power beam of high-energy neutrons or alpha particles that can clandestinely directed against high value enemy satellites to degrade their systems over time.

    Another possible option is an alpha-particle/He cannon where helium fuel is ionised by stripping it of one electron, electromagnetically accelerated (like in an electric-powered ion thruster), then the lost electron is replaced rendering the particle neutral prior to ejecting it at the target.  Not sure however if its possible to add electrons and maintain the particle vector, but thats what R&D process is for  Very Happy

    Developing and deploying a workable weapons platform would be a de-stabilizing act and invite a ZOG NWO repsonse, but its worth conducting the basic R&D to evaluate and build a ground-based test bed.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:36 am

    this planet is the only home we have and our efforts should go into making it into as good as place to live as we can manage.
    What happens  when palladium, platinum, titanium, uranium, oil, gas and  tungsten run out on earth? What about overpopulation? Climate change?

    Stop acting like we know how much natural resources there are in the solar system because our exploration efforts in searching for them have been pathetically small. We dont know anything other than main mineral composition of planets. For all we know there could be megatons worth of tungsten  2km below the surface of mars in some remote place?

    Also having manned orbital stations on the moon will massively cheapen space launches due to longer having to deal with the gravity well on earth which costs us trillions of dollars$.


    Last edited by KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:37 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.    

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams.   They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons).   They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.  

    Yep, the neutral particle beam... kinda like an artificial beam of cosmic rays, and we know how damaging a high-energy cosmic ray hit can be against microprocessors and memory circuits  attack   Not only do neutral particles not self-repel as you noted, they are also impervious to deflection by magnetic fields.  This means that magnetic screens cannot be used for defense, and more importantly, magnetospheres from planetary bodies will not cause targeting issues.

    Such a weapon would be an order of magnitude harder to develop (neutrons can't be focused AFAIK), beam power output would likely be orders of magnitude lower, and would be useless in a planetary atmosphere, but conceivably it could use a nuclear reactor to generate a "low" power beam of high-energy neutrons or alpha particles that can clandestinely directed against high value enemy satellites to degrade their systems over time.

    Another possible option is an alpha-particle/He cannon where helium fuel is ionised by stripping it of one electron, electromagnetically accelerated (like in an electric-powered ion thruster), then the lost electron is replaced rendering the particle neutral prior to ejecting it at the target.  Not sure however if its possible to add electrons and maintain the particle vector, but thats what R&D process is for  Very Happy

    Developing and deploying a workable weapons platform would be a de-stabilizing act and invite a ZOG NWO repsonse, but its worth conducting the basic R&D to evaluate and build a ground-based test bed.

    What about having a large satellite that drops hypersonic glide vehicles on carrier battle groups?
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 am

    What happens  when palladium, platinum, titanium, uranium, oil, gas and  tungsten run out on earth? What about overpopulation? Climate change?

    Running out isn't the issue, but cost increases due to scarcity and rationing of the materials is the actual risk.  in any case, we're not going to satisfy global demand by flying to asteroids and sifting through rubble piles and dust drifts, and bring back a few dozens of tons at the cost of billions of $ per mission.  

    Overpopulation?  Yeah, i can really see our Elite Industrialists building a vast armada of (expensive) spacecraft to save the lives of hordes of common people from our own societies, let alone a far greater number of 3rd-world people from the relatively undeveloped nations of the world.  The best option is live within our fucking means, and cease burning up ever-increasing quantities of resources and non-renewable energy in some crazy madcap insistence on combating the steady erosion of fiat currencies by increasing "economic activity" and create loads more "1" and "0" in electronic bank accounts, simply so that the uber-rich can guard the value of their excessive asset base.....

    Climate change? This is a Russian forum, and I think Russia should only pay lip service to global warming but generally do nothing.  Arctic and Siberian warming can only be a good thing, regardless of a few buildings that may fall over as permafrost starts to soften.  Opening up the vast Siberian interior to large scale human occupation (ie without the need of reticulated energy sources to avoid freezing to death) has the potential to create vast economic growth for the Russian state, though Russia will need sharp teeth to prevent her enemies from trying their luck....

    Stop acting like we know how much natural resources there are in the solar system because our exploration efforts in searching for them have been pathetically small. We dont know anything other than main mineral composition of planets. For all we know there could be megatons worth of tungsten  2km below the surface of mars in some remote place?

    Asteroids are primitive undifferentiated bodies where insufficient opportunity has existed since their formation for geological/hydrological processes to work and produce concentrations of chemically-similar minerals, ie no ore bodies.  Without prospectable and recoverable ores, we can't mine the 'roid belt.

    Mining of planets like Mars is even more problematic. Energy requirements to launch millions of tons of processed metals and send them to earth will be incalculable. What is the point of providing "martian copper" to earthly industries if it will cost $100M per tonne? If minerals really become that hard to find on earthly terrestrial deposits, it would be more sensible and cost effective to extract what we need from seawater (which contains 90 ppb of Cu, so 1m3 contains ~90mg) than trying to mine rocks in space.

    For those who are interested, check out this analysis of seawater composition: https://web.stanford.edu/group/Urchin/mineral.html

    Also having manned orbital stations on the moon will massively cheapen space launches due to longer having to deal with the gravity well on earth which costs us trillions of dollars$

    That require manufacturing facilities on the Moon, localised production of construction material & energy, as well as life support for workers and technicians and managers.  In any case, we would still need mass transports from the earth to provide personnel fr these activities.  No, not seeing the workability...
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:09 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What about having a large satellite that drops hypersonic glide vehicles on carrier battle groups?

    That's an entirely different proposal, and is plausible, however has the tactical disadvantage that you need the station to make a orbital pass over the battle, so they likely won't be available exactly when you need them.  An orbital station lacks altitude, and kinetic energy due to retro-braking re-entry from a 250km LEO isn't as high as an ICBM can deliver from a high ballistic trajectory, so weapon velocity will be reduced (making it easier to defend against).  The station is also easily tracked and is vulnerable to enemy countermeasures like missile-based ASAT weapons.

    It's fair to say that HGV are best deployed from land/sea based missiles when required, preferably from mobile launchers (or subs) that can be hidden and protected against pre-emptive strikes. The downside is that such launches can be misconstrued as an attack by nuclear weapons, but so can the use of orbitally deployed weapons.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:06 am

    Running out isn't the issue, but cost increases due to scarcity and rationing of the materials is the actual risk.  in any case, we're not going to satisfy global demand by flying to asteroids and sifting through rubble piles and dust drifts, and bring back a few dozens of tons at the cost of billions of $ per mission.
    Still better to have functional interplanetary technology when that moment comes, because once minerals on earth start becoming scarce(and we dont have the tech to mine outside of earth) the economy will infinitely decline, high technology will be infinitely more expensive, and human civilisation will be eventually permanently locked in a pre-industrial state.

    Overpopulation?  Yeah, i can really see our Elite Industrialists building a vast armada of (expensive) spacecraft to save the lives of hordes of common people from our own societies, let alone a far greater number of 3rd-world people from the relatively undeveloped nations of the world.  
    Im talking not now, but in 100-150 years space transportation and interplanetary settlements should become advanced and cheap enough that some of the population should eventually settle outside of earth.


    This is a Russian forum, and I think Russia should only pay lip service to global warming but generally do nothing.  Arctic and Siberian warming can only be a good thing, regardless of a few buildings that may fall over as permafrost starts to soften.  Opening up the vast Siberian interior to large scale human occupation (ie without the need of reticulated energy sources to avoid freezing to death) has the potential to create vast economic growth for the Russian state, though Russia will need sharp teeth to prevent her enemies from trying their luck....
    Enjoy leningrad being flooded and the ladoga becoming a baltic bay then. Also with a melted ice cap, we cannot predict the change of sea currents, and one thing is sure, typhoons will appear much more to the north, so enjoy vladivostok getting leveled every few years.

    Mining of planets like Mars is even more problematic.  Energy requirements to launch millions of tons of processed metals and send them to earth will be incalculable.  What is the point of providing "martian copper" to earthly industries if it will cost $100M per tonne?
    It will be much cheaper in 100 years, that is if the space programs get more funding and achieve those technologies earlier. Still better than scrounging infinitely declining natural resources on earth. Also sea water? Are you high? How much uranium does sea water have? Tungsten? Indium? Gallium? Some shit quantity of gold or copper in the water wont support high tech industry.

    That require manufacturing facilities on the Moon, localised production of construction material & energy, as well as life support for workers and technicians and managers.  In any case, we would still need mass transports from the earth to provide personnel from these activities.  No, not seeing the workability...
    Its workable if space life support technology is developed through more investment into space technology.


    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 999
    Points : 1015
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:45 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Also sea water? Are you high? How much uranium does sea water have? Tungsten? Indium? Gallium? Some shit quantity of gold or copper in the water wont  support high tech industry.

    Yeah, I'm 100% fucking serious. The cost of any minerals/metals recovered from interplanetary sources will ALWAYS be astronomically expensive (pun intended). If we ever become so dependent upon such materials we would first develop recycling tech for scavenging our land-fills and derelict buildings & requipment. If that was insufficient, and we were forced to consider space mining, the enormous cost would make economic the recovery of trace metals from seawater.

    Consider copper at 0.09 PPM. 1m3 of seawater holds 90 mg of Cu. Process a volume equal to an Olympic size swimming pool (~2500 m3) and you could recover up to 225g of Cu, depending on your extraction efficiency.

    That doesn't sound like much, but sea water is free and we have an inexhaustible supply of it. What will the cost be for recovery of a 1/4 kg of elemental Cu from an asteroid located 100s of millions of kms away? or from the moon?

    Keep in mind that currently there are commercial operators who are extracting the most abundant metals Na, Mg, Ca and K from seawater. If resource depletion results in the scarcity going thru the roof and price follows, who is to say that we can't do the same for the other trace metals? What would be easier and cheaper - seawater extraction or heading off-world to try mining a bunch of undifferentiated interplanetary rocks?

    Vann7

    Posts : 3526
    Points : 3638
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:09 am

    Russia engineers already have said that their Moon base project ,will be for mining Helium-3.
    So apparently they know something ,that skeptics don't.. The savings you will have in electricity
    bills will surpass the cost of the trip..

    Another area Russia can work is weather modification for economic - tourism purposes..
    With a giant Super heavy space ship , Russia could deploy a giant magnifying glass in space that could be
    used to make warmer some regions in Russia in cold seasons. In space for having no gravity. there is no limit in the size of the things you can build there. You can literary create an entire colony in space and make fantasy science fiction movies a reality. and develop some level of artificial gravity too , used some orbital motion tricks . All this things will
    advance Russia technology Industry to a whole new level. and the best thing of all . it will promote a lot science
    in Russia ,instead of meaningless sports. Everyone in Russia will want to work in Russia space industry and  most
    people will seek engineering careers in electronic and chemistry and physics..  This also promotes National unity.
    and will boost Russia world image significantly...  

    A true ambitious space program ,will take Russia into a totally new level .surpassing the west in everything.
    and this also will have endless multi uses ,for military purposes too. What is expensive ,is that Russia allows Americans
    to dominate in space.. and become the second or third best . That will make Russia even more a disrespected nation
    in the world and it will not help Russia to end the western Aggression ,Sanctions .and the conflicts they provoke on
    countries Russia have major interest.


    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:16 pm