Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Share
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1561
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 am

    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.
    avatar
    Airman

    Posts : 392
    Points : 440
    Join date : 2016-10-15
    Location : Turkey

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Airman on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 am



    lol
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6627
    Points : 6729
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:52 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.

    Launching 5 standard size satellites still doesn't justify price-tag of superheavy rocket. Cheaper to just use couple of medium rockets.

    Only way for superheavy to make sense is launching massive payloads and those are still not not around.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:05 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?
    Launching 5 Glonass satellites at once plus launching bundles of legendas.

    When would Russia need to launch 5x Glonass simultaneously?  

    Ever hear the phrase "putting too many eggs in one basket"?  Remember what happened in 2013 with a Proton failure which resulted in the loss of 3x Uragan-M?

    It makes no sense to spend billions so that you can attempt with 1 rocket what you routinely do with 2-3.

    You don't need a SHLV unless you are launching unusually massive space station modules, heavy lunar manned craft, or manned mars missions.  Russia won't be doing these until the late 2020s or early 2030s, and truth be told, neither will Uncle Scam.  Musk isn't going to be funding any worthwhile missions to Mars, despite the endless fan-boi hoop-la and self-promotional vanity projects.  Red Dragon?  Don't make me laugh...  NASA won't be granted the funds for similar ventures anytime soon, and they are more interested in space science in any case (which is the real pay-off. and is where NASA truly excels like no-one else can).

    In short, a SHLV is a necessary tool, but lets not kid ourselves that it will fly regularly or be a "game-changer"  (How the Muskians love that phrase...).  Russia needs to focus on what matters.  Complete the Angara manufacturing complex and build a Vostochny launch facility so that they can entertain commercial launches and finally retire Proton (can't do that from a military Cosmodrome in the far North), get Soyuz-5 and Federation flying from Baikonour, then Vostochny.  A few space science missions such as the lunar robots being prepped for 2019-22 launches are also a priority.  In my (practical) mind, the successful launch of Luna 25/26/27 is far more important than debut of a heavy launcher with a PR payload with zero science returns.

    Vann7

    Posts : 3782
    Points : 3888
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    BTW Vann, if Russia did have a 100T class launcher currently available, what would they use it for?  The Russian Soyuz-V based SHLV may not fly for another 9-10 years, but the lunar Federation crewed vehicle won't be ready until then, so the timescale isn't an issue in my book.  Russia has a lot more important priorities...  you know the sort of strategic achievements that drive the US Ruling Class cunts wild with impotent rage as their full-spectrum dominance fades away day by day. Very Happy

    for what RUssia need a  heavy space rocket??? , russia could do a thousands of things..
    ===========================================================

    1) deploy a Russian only heavy space station in space that could be used for civilians or military purposes
    at will ,in case relations with the west totally breaks.. ie.. that US start deploying nukes in space aiming at Russia.
    Russia needs to be prepared for space . US military already have said ,they seeking a full spectrum domination
    of space to deny enemies the use of space.
     
    2)A Giant Lazer/energy weapon could be deployed in that space station to shutdown nukes.

    3) It could be used to sabotage American/NATO satelites.. in case Russia goes to war  
    US will have no way to know what is inside the space station and the payloads russia takes there.  Cool

    -also a heavy rocket could be used to lift  heavy space defenses ,for the space station..
    like S-500s /S-600s in space.. to protect Russia satellites and space station. But also to intercept nukes
    from space ,in mid orbit ,way before they start descending. Cool

    4)It could be used for a manned mission to moon and mars or beyond.. or to build a base in mars..

    5)For civilian Tourism.. Russia can create a new industry ,space tourism for Rich people.

    6)It can be used as a base in space to build a giant space shuttle for space travel.. So Cosmonauts
      travel in a light cheap rocket to the Russian super space station and from there board a space shuttle
      to the moon or mars.

    7)For significantly boost Russia space industry this create jobs in very high tech business ,and this attract investors
    and help Russia raise its image in the world as a leader in space.

    8)For business ,business and more business.. advertising for example... western companies will pay
    billions for Russia in adversing..

    9)space tourism..at major scale..

    There will be problems at first to implement any of those things ,but if Russia jumps early in the race to the moon.
    they will solve the issues earlier than the west.

    The thing is , that you need first to build the space rockets ,and after you have then.. the needs for it will show up.
    It could be used for mining in the moon Helium-3.. the most expensive material known by man.. is more expensive than diamonds or gold. Since Helium can be used to produce free energy. So if Russia had the heavy rockets
    know.. it will not need to wait for year 2025 or 2030 or year 3,000 for leaving the earth orbit and traveling with
    humans in space. Russia do have a lot of money .. they in sports alone ,they have spend 51+11 billions already
    in Sports and olympics.. between Sochi and FIFA.  and now Russia signed for a super fast train to china for $200 billions. So Russia can get a lot of money ,when it really wants to do something.. but Putin is not taking seriously
    the Space race. he don't see how much damage he does to Russia world image ,by allowing Americans to steal the show there...  Putin complains of Russia not being taken seriously in the world its interest.. and this is consequence of him not doing anything to take Russia into a leading position in space and in other meaningful business.

    Putin is doing wrong in relying in sports for boosting patriotism in Russia. he will do far better with a leadership in space. A moon manned landing today in space with a heavy rocket ,will be like 100x sochis olympics victories.
    because will be written in history books.. and in some cases claimed to be the first REAL moon landing ,since is questioned even among American citizens ,if the moon landing ever happened or not... So Putin needs to boost morale of its citizens ,by turning Russia into the leader  in space.. This not only will significantly help the economy .because will boost investments from the west.. in projects offers.. for the heavy rocket.. but also will help the Russian space industry ,take it to a whole new level . with travels to Jupiter and saturn.. it will make every Russian citizen more proud than ever of their country. it will boost Russia economy and help Russia influence the west.. for more cooperation with Russia instead of their hostilities. it will also silence Russian opposition too.. because the celebrations will silence their protest. A very strong Space Program will have endless benefits ,endless possibilities..  

    One of the very few things soviets did right.. was their space program.. Gagarin first flight to space ,made Russia
    so popular in the world ,so celebrated, that even the queen of england wanted to meet Russian cosmonauts.
    Soviets flew to Venus , to Moon and mars ,with probes. they build rovers robots in the moon. and all this things
    motivated Russians to study engineering and science.. So investing in space , will bring many benefits short term,
    medium and long term.. Russia today for example benefits enourmously of Soviet Space program.. since Soyus
    is nearly perfect ,space rocket ,that they have mastered.   Building a heavy space rocket now..and not in year 2030,
    will help Russia to master ,heavy space rockets early on the race... and take the lead in important space exploration.
    like it will be moon ,mars or its satellites. In short a heavy rocket and dominating in space ,could significantly boost
    Russia image in the world and Russia influence ,promote patriotism more than a thousands of olympics ,and also
    promote good relations with the west.. because Leadership in space is one of the very few things Americans respect
    from Russia and force them to cooperate. So Russia needs absolute leadership and totally outmatch NASA and SpaceX
    in space.. this latter is also part of American government funding.. so is part of US space program too.

    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:for what RUssia need a  heavy space rocket??? , russia could do a thousands of things..
    ===========================================================

    1) deploy a Russian only heavy space station in space that could be used for civilians or military purposes
    at will ,in case relations with the west totally breaks.. ie.. that US start deploying nukes in space aiming at Russia.
    Russia needs to be prepared for space . US military already have said ,they seeking a full spectrum domination
    of space to deny enemies the use of space.
     
    2)A Giant Lazer/energy weapon could be deployed in that space station to shutdown nukes.

    3) It could be used to sabotage American/NATO satelites.. in case Russia goes to war  
    US will have no way to know what is inside the space station and the payloads russia takes there.  Cool

    4)It could be used for a manned mission to moon and mars.. or to build a base in mars..

    5)For civilian Tourism.. Russia can create a new industry ,space tourism for Rich people.

    6)It can be used as a base in space to build a giant space shuttle for space travel.. So Cosmonauts
      travel in a light cheap rocket to the Russian super space station and from there board a space shuttle
      to the moon or mars.

    7)For significantly boost Russia space industry this create jobs in very high tech business ,and this attract investors
    and help Russia raise its image in the world as a leader in space.

    The thing is , that you need first to build the space rockets ,and after you have then.. the needs for it will show up.
    It could be used for mining in the moon Helium-3.. the most expensive material known by man.. is more expensive than diamonds or gold. Since Helium can be used to produce free energy. So if Russia had the heavy rockets
    know.. it will not need to wait for year 2025 or 2030 or year 3,000 for leaving the earth orbit and traveling with
    humans in space. Russia do have a lot of money .. they in sports alone ,they have spend 51+11 billions already
    in Sports and olympics.. between Sochi and FIFA.  and now Russia signed for a super fast train to china for $200 billions. So Russia can get a lot of money ,when it really wants to do something.. but Putin is not taking seriously
    the Space race. he don't see how much damage he does to Russia world image ,by allowing Americans to steal the show there...  Putin complains of Russia not being taken seriously in the world its interest.. and this is consequence of him not doing anything to take Russia into a leading position in space and in other meaningful business.

    Putin is doing wrong in relying in sports for boosting patriotism in Russia. he will do far better with a leadership in space. A moon manned landing today in space with a heavy rocket ,will be like 100x sochis olympics victories.
    because will be written in history books.. and in some cases claimed to be the first REAL moon landing ,since is questioned even among American citizens ,if the moon landing ever happened or not... So Putin needs to boost morale of its citizens ,by turning Russia into the leader  in space.. This not only will significantly help the economy .because will boost investments from the west.. in projects offers.. for the heavy rocket.. but also will help the Russian space industry ,take it to a whole new level . with travels to Jupiter and saturn.. it will make every Russian citizen more proud than ever of their country. it will boost Russia economy and help Russia influence the west.. for more cooperation with Russia instead of their hostilities. it will also silence Russian opposition too.. because the celebrations will silence their protest. A very strong Space Program will have endless benefits ,endless possibilities..  

    One of the very few things soviets did right.. was their space program.. Gagarin first flight to space ,made Russia
    so popular in the world ,so celebrated, that even the queen of england wanted to meet Russian cosmonauts.
    Soviets flew to Venus , to Moon and mars ,with probes. they build rovers robots in the moon. and all this things
    motivated Russians to study engineering and science.. So investing in space , will bring many benefits short term,
    medium and long term.. Russia today for example benefits enourmously of Soviet Space program.. since Soyus
    is nearly perfect ,space rocket ,that they have mastered.   Building a heavy space rocket now..and not in year 2030,
    will help Russia to master ,heavy space rockets early on the race... and take the lead in important space exploration.
    like it will be moon ,mars or its satellites.


    Manned military space stations are not worth the cost.  The Soviets trialed the Almaz stations and concluded that unmanned satellites are superior and vastly cheaper.

    What will this "heavy Russian only station" actually do in orbit?  What activities will be performed and how will those activities justify the huge cost of building and operating such a facility?  Bio-med and materials fabrication is mostly a bust - lots of nice promises but still after 30 years no useful materials that make a difference.  Recon and remote sensing is best done by unmanned satellites (humans move around and cause the station to move, degrading teleascope pointing accuracy and image quality).

    Orbital directed energy weapon to shoot down nukes?  Why not simply expand ground-fired missile-based BMD?  Unless this hypothetical  laser station is loitering over the North pole ICBM alley (ie a physical impossibility) and unless it can target and destroy multiple warheads/missile buses every second, its hardly going to make a difference.  Lets not even consider teh cost in designing, manufacturing, launching, assembling, testing, operating, maintaining...  and all teh political issues such as HATOstani accusations of "Russian aggression" and triggering a space Arms Race...

    ASAT is best done using direct ascent rockets with maneuverable kill-stages, based in silos and ready at a moments notice.  Orbital directed energy platforms would be inefficient, mega expensive and politically destabilizing.

    Manned missions to Moon are definitely a real possibility, but will be expensive.  International co-operation is the best approach, certainly with China.  Eurotrash and their Murican leash-holders cannot be trusted at this point in time.

    Mars is 100x times are difficult and expensive.  Forget Muskian self-fonding with his Red Dragon fantasy garbage.  Manned missions to Mars will need to be high-budget and well engineered with multiple redundancies built in to cope with inevitable failures.  The idea of doing it on the cheap with a modified LEO Dragon and volunteers with the "Right Stuff" and Murican "can-do" attitude like a 21st century version of "go West young man" is so laughable as to elicit tears...

    Space "tourism" sounds nice, but the problem is that isn't anywhere to really go....  Most peoples idea of a holiday is not taking a long uncomfortable expensive flight to a remote airport, then spend a week in a small cabin looking out the window, and then returning home by another long cramped flight...  yet this is exactly what a flight to/from an orbital station comprises.  Super wealthy might choose to do it once or maybe twice, but they won't make a habit of it.  Sub-orbital hops SpaceShip One/two style isn't much different, and it only takes one high-profile accident and multiple dead rich people to permanently take off the gloss and start never-ending law suites that sap an operators will to live...

    Shuttles to Moon or Mars?  Why not board a Q-dimensional quantum teleporter and go to the Andromeda spiral?  I hear the floating oceans of Zygma 4 are beautiful when the solar whales re-enter the atmosphere to start the breeding season...   Laughing

    Helium 3 is a fucking joke.  Strip mine the upper few inches of the lunar regolith and somehow extract the estimated 20 ppb of He-3? We couldn't do that effectively on Earth, let alone on the moon.

    Putin...  nah, not gonna bother go there.  

    Bottom line - this planet is the only home we have and our efforts should go into making it into as good as place to live as we can manage.  Manned space is a bottomless black-hole money-pit that will NEVER provide a net positive return on investment.  Explore the solar system with robots by all means, and if we find anything truly remarkable (like fossils on Mars) I'm all in favour of sending manned expeditions on focused scientific missions, but humans living on desolate planets simply because they are there?  Nope, thats a a fools errand.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3651
    Points : 3762
    Join date : 2014-09-10
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:49 am

    Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers. It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses. This thing would not be anything like we have so far. It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds. It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it
    can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone. Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such
    systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams. We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams. Using a photon
    population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic. The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted
    through fibers. But this has clear limitations. Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy.
    But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and
    controlled system.

    As of 2018, the only ABM solution is ground based, nuke tipped interceptors. It is vastly cheaper and actually physically possible to
    deploy a vast number of such interceptors. Of course, an arms race would develop where the number of ICBMs and warheads would be
    increased in a commensurate pattern. But at least this way, Washington would have no dreams of being able to launch a decapitating
    first strike. MAD would rule. This is why all strategic nuclear arms limitations treaties should be burned. They give Uncle Scumbag the
    false hope of starting a winnable nuclear war.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6627
    Points : 6729
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:52 am

    Vann throwing shit at the wall as usual but constantly ignoring fact that all that shit costs money, same money that is used for development of super-heavy rocket, manned spacecraft and ground infrastructure for it.

    I assume that there was Putin somewhere in there but I didn't read the whole thing ( what little I did read was 90% BS anyway...)
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:03 pm

    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy. Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it. Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3651
    Points : 3762
    Join date : 2014-09-10
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:00 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams. They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons). They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.

    Vann7

    Posts : 3782
    Points : 3888
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:44 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    You say space is expensive.. but you don't see the benefits are orders in magnitude higher and will pay back
    multiplied by x10 or by x100... the cost of the travel..  Have you see in Super bowl in US.. just fucking stupid
    sports .. how much money advertising there cost for just 30 seconds?  Big companies pay hundreds of millions
    at times for just 30 seconds of advertising..  

    So if this is just a stupid game ,of 2 teams trying to get the championship.  Imagine how much more
    expensive will be space advertising.. if Russia had a moon base in the moon.. with 2-3 billions of human
    beings watching on live across all the planet ,every moment of Russians cosmonauts in space ? and the construction
    of the base.. the hours and hours people will spend watching it.. People will be talking about it.. in every country.
    Music will be made around Russia moon base... movies.. etc.. is endless the PROMOTION Russia will get
    as a leader of the world.. and the nation to follow .... Did is HUGGGGGEEEEE!!!  

    It have been told ,that in business.. what you don't promote.. don't advertise , and people is not aware .DONT SALE.
    So Russia problem is a problem of Advertising.. and of leadership too.. By leading in space ,outmatching Americans..
    this will have many nations ,many.. including Americans and Europeans , very interested in closer business relations with Russia ,do benefit from Russia leadership in space.  A big Space station ,can be used as a starting point ,as a launching pad for Russia domination of space and space travels and spaceship for travel. and the military uses are endless too.. Rail Guns ,lazer guns, Energy guns.. etc..  as early warning system of any missile launch in the world..
    to manipulate Russia weather.. etc..   By leading Russia in space ,this will also promote Tourism in Russia, it will boost
    Russia economy 10x fold.. because everyone in the world ,,will like to know more about Russia. Is all about influence,advertising your nation as an alternative or as the real leader of the world.. This will also have major impact
    in the American Empire.. it will reduce it significantly and disband NATO little by little.. because Nations and people follow leaders.. and not the followers. Russia follows the american system..and allows them to lead in every thing that the world likes , and later Russia /putin is surprised why Russia is not taken seriously and have no allies in the world.
    Russia leading in space will be another reason for americans Leaders to make peace with Russia. because Russia now will make the demands and the rules for Allowing americans to participate in Russia out of earth orbit projects. Cooperation only when american drops sanctions Russia will be in position to say.. So the avoiding of a major
    war ,is another benefit.. Russia will be able to use its space program as a carrot to lure its enemies away from its hostile behavior. and this will also significantly destroy Russian opposition..no euromaidans, because again.. Society always cheer leaders and nations that leads the world into the future.  This also will destroy the Russian opposition in Ukraine.. People will want to return to Russia , when they see ,Russia is more advanced and developed  nation than any country in Europe or the west.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:43 am

    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.    

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams.   They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons).   They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.  

    Yep, the neutral particle beam... kinda like an artificial beam of cosmic rays, and we know how damaging a high-energy cosmic ray hit can be against microprocessors and memory circuits  attack   Not only do neutral particles not self-repel as you noted, they are also impervious to deflection by magnetic fields.  This means that magnetic screens cannot be used for defense, and more importantly, magnetospheres from planetary bodies will not cause targeting issues.

    Such a weapon would be an order of magnitude harder to develop (neutrons can't be focused AFAIK), beam power output would likely be orders of magnitude lower, and would be useless in a planetary atmosphere, but conceivably it could use a nuclear reactor to generate a "low" power beam of high-energy neutrons or alpha particles that can clandestinely directed against high value enemy satellites to degrade their systems over time.

    Another possible option is an alpha-particle/He cannon where helium fuel is ionised by stripping it of one electron, electromagnetically accelerated (like in an electric-powered ion thruster), then the lost electron is replaced rendering the particle neutral prior to ejecting it at the target.  Not sure however if its possible to add electrons and maintain the particle vector, but thats what R&D process is for  Very Happy

    Developing and deploying a workable weapons platform would be a de-stabilizing act and invite a ZOG NWO repsonse, but its worth conducting the basic R&D to evaluate and build a ground-based test bed.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1561
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:36 am

    this planet is the only home we have and our efforts should go into making it into as good as place to live as we can manage.
    What happens  when palladium, platinum, titanium, uranium, oil, gas and  tungsten run out on earth? What about overpopulation? Climate change?

    Stop acting like we know how much natural resources there are in the solar system because our exploration efforts in searching for them have been pathetically small. We dont know anything other than main mineral composition of planets. For all we know there could be megatons worth of tungsten  2km below the surface of mars in some remote place?

    Also having manned orbital stations on the moon will massively cheapen space launches due to longer having to deal with the gravity well on earth which costs us trillions of dollars$.


    Last edited by KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1561
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:37 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:Since we are on the subject of nukes and lasers.    It would quite nifty if a heavy satellite laser battery could be deployed to fry nukes without having to deal with atmospheric losses.    This thing would not be anything like we have so far.   It would need to be a nuclear powered monster that can generate dozens of intense beams every few seconds.    It would need to have powerful propulsion so that it can minimize the time that orbital mechanics takes it away from the action zone.    Since orbital mechanics is not optional, multiple such systems would need to be launched.

    One of the show stopping problems is the laser beams.   We need new physics to produce powerful sci-fi like beams.   Using a photon population inversion in a crystal is just pathetic.    The only thing we can do today is lump a massive amount of small lasers ducted through fibers.   But this has clear limitations.   Teller's nuke laser idea is the only concept that provides for substantial beam energy. But it is a non-starter because tens of thousands of narrow, accurately aimed beams are necessary which demands a non-disposable and controlled system.

    Space-based ABM lasers are an unworkable fantasy.  Laws of physics dictate beam divergence, and there is simply no way around it.  Simple counter-measures like thermal shielding (like an ablative re-entry shield) will defeat the resultant diffused beam energy on target.

    Which is the point I was making.    

    It would be fun if nuclear reactors could be modified to produce high energy (relativistic) neutron beams.   They would do
    vastly more damage than any laser and no shielding would work (lead is transparent to neutrons).   They would also not have
    the problem of self-repulsion like ion beams and would thus remain much more collimated.  

    Yep, the neutral particle beam... kinda like an artificial beam of cosmic rays, and we know how damaging a high-energy cosmic ray hit can be against microprocessors and memory circuits  attack   Not only do neutral particles not self-repel as you noted, they are also impervious to deflection by magnetic fields.  This means that magnetic screens cannot be used for defense, and more importantly, magnetospheres from planetary bodies will not cause targeting issues.

    Such a weapon would be an order of magnitude harder to develop (neutrons can't be focused AFAIK), beam power output would likely be orders of magnitude lower, and would be useless in a planetary atmosphere, but conceivably it could use a nuclear reactor to generate a "low" power beam of high-energy neutrons or alpha particles that can clandestinely directed against high value enemy satellites to degrade their systems over time.

    Another possible option is an alpha-particle/He cannon where helium fuel is ionised by stripping it of one electron, electromagnetically accelerated (like in an electric-powered ion thruster), then the lost electron is replaced rendering the particle neutral prior to ejecting it at the target.  Not sure however if its possible to add electrons and maintain the particle vector, but thats what R&D process is for  Very Happy

    Developing and deploying a workable weapons platform would be a de-stabilizing act and invite a ZOG NWO repsonse, but its worth conducting the basic R&D to evaluate and build a ground-based test bed.

    What about having a large satellite that drops hypersonic glide vehicles on carrier battle groups?
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:18 am

    What happens  when palladium, platinum, titanium, uranium, oil, gas and  tungsten run out on earth? What about overpopulation? Climate change?

    Running out isn't the issue, but cost increases due to scarcity and rationing of the materials is the actual risk.  in any case, we're not going to satisfy global demand by flying to asteroids and sifting through rubble piles and dust drifts, and bring back a few dozens of tons at the cost of billions of $ per mission.  

    Overpopulation?  Yeah, i can really see our Elite Industrialists building a vast armada of (expensive) spacecraft to save the lives of hordes of common people from our own societies, let alone a far greater number of 3rd-world people from the relatively undeveloped nations of the world.  The best option is live within our fucking means, and cease burning up ever-increasing quantities of resources and non-renewable energy in some crazy madcap insistence on combating the steady erosion of fiat currencies by increasing "economic activity" and create loads more "1" and "0" in electronic bank accounts, simply so that the uber-rich can guard the value of their excessive asset base.....

    Climate change? This is a Russian forum, and I think Russia should only pay lip service to global warming but generally do nothing.  Arctic and Siberian warming can only be a good thing, regardless of a few buildings that may fall over as permafrost starts to soften.  Opening up the vast Siberian interior to large scale human occupation (ie without the need of reticulated energy sources to avoid freezing to death) has the potential to create vast economic growth for the Russian state, though Russia will need sharp teeth to prevent her enemies from trying their luck....

    Stop acting like we know how much natural resources there are in the solar system because our exploration efforts in searching for them have been pathetically small. We dont know anything other than main mineral composition of planets. For all we know there could be megatons worth of tungsten  2km below the surface of mars in some remote place?

    Asteroids are primitive undifferentiated bodies where insufficient opportunity has existed since their formation for geological/hydrological processes to work and produce concentrations of chemically-similar minerals, ie no ore bodies.  Without prospectable and recoverable ores, we can't mine the 'roid belt.

    Mining of planets like Mars is even more problematic. Energy requirements to launch millions of tons of processed metals and send them to earth will be incalculable. What is the point of providing "martian copper" to earthly industries if it will cost $100M per tonne? If minerals really become that hard to find on earthly terrestrial deposits, it would be more sensible and cost effective to extract what we need from seawater (which contains 90 ppb of Cu, so 1m3 contains ~90mg) than trying to mine rocks in space.

    For those who are interested, check out this analysis of seawater composition: https://web.stanford.edu/group/Urchin/mineral.html

    Also having manned orbital stations on the moon will massively cheapen space launches due to longer having to deal with the gravity well on earth which costs us trillions of dollars$

    That require manufacturing facilities on the Moon, localised production of construction material & energy, as well as life support for workers and technicians and managers.  In any case, we would still need mass transports from the earth to provide personnel fr these activities.  No, not seeing the workability...
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:09 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What about having a large satellite that drops hypersonic glide vehicles on carrier battle groups?

    That's an entirely different proposal, and is plausible, however has the tactical disadvantage that you need the station to make a orbital pass over the battle, so they likely won't be available exactly when you need them.  An orbital station lacks altitude, and kinetic energy due to retro-braking re-entry from a 250km LEO isn't as high as an ICBM can deliver from a high ballistic trajectory, so weapon velocity will be reduced (making it easier to defend against).  The station is also easily tracked and is vulnerable to enemy countermeasures like missile-based ASAT weapons.

    It's fair to say that HGV are best deployed from land/sea based missiles when required, preferably from mobile launchers (or subs) that can be hidden and protected against pre-emptive strikes. The downside is that such launches can be misconstrued as an attack by nuclear weapons, but so can the use of orbitally deployed weapons.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1561
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:06 am

    Running out isn't the issue, but cost increases due to scarcity and rationing of the materials is the actual risk.  in any case, we're not going to satisfy global demand by flying to asteroids and sifting through rubble piles and dust drifts, and bring back a few dozens of tons at the cost of billions of $ per mission.
    Still better to have functional interplanetary technology when that moment comes, because once minerals on earth start becoming scarce(and we dont have the tech to mine outside of earth) the economy will infinitely decline, high technology will be infinitely more expensive, and human civilisation will be eventually permanently locked in a pre-industrial state.

    Overpopulation?  Yeah, i can really see our Elite Industrialists building a vast armada of (expensive) spacecraft to save the lives of hordes of common people from our own societies, let alone a far greater number of 3rd-world people from the relatively undeveloped nations of the world.  
    Im talking not now, but in 100-150 years space transportation and interplanetary settlements should become advanced and cheap enough that some of the population should eventually settle outside of earth.


    This is a Russian forum, and I think Russia should only pay lip service to global warming but generally do nothing.  Arctic and Siberian warming can only be a good thing, regardless of a few buildings that may fall over as permafrost starts to soften.  Opening up the vast Siberian interior to large scale human occupation (ie without the need of reticulated energy sources to avoid freezing to death) has the potential to create vast economic growth for the Russian state, though Russia will need sharp teeth to prevent her enemies from trying their luck....
    Enjoy leningrad being flooded and the ladoga becoming a baltic bay then. Also with a melted ice cap, we cannot predict the change of sea currents, and one thing is sure, typhoons will appear much more to the north, so enjoy vladivostok getting leveled every few years.

    Mining of planets like Mars is even more problematic.  Energy requirements to launch millions of tons of processed metals and send them to earth will be incalculable.  What is the point of providing "martian copper" to earthly industries if it will cost $100M per tonne?
    It will be much cheaper in 100 years, that is if the space programs get more funding and achieve those technologies earlier. Still better than scrounging infinitely declining natural resources on earth. Also sea water? Are you high? How much uranium does sea water have? Tungsten? Indium? Gallium? Some shit quantity of gold or copper in the water wont support high tech industry.

    That require manufacturing facilities on the Moon, localised production of construction material & energy, as well as life support for workers and technicians and managers.  In any case, we would still need mass transports from the earth to provide personnel from these activities.  No, not seeing the workability...
    Its workable if space life support technology is developed through more investment into space technology.


    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:45 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Also sea water? Are you high? How much uranium does sea water have? Tungsten? Indium? Gallium? Some shit quantity of gold or copper in the water wont  support high tech industry.

    Yeah, I'm 100% fucking serious. The cost of any minerals/metals recovered from interplanetary sources will ALWAYS be astronomically expensive (pun intended). If we ever become so dependent upon such materials we would first develop recycling tech for scavenging our land-fills and derelict buildings & requipment. If that was insufficient, and we were forced to consider space mining, the enormous cost would make economic the recovery of trace metals from seawater.

    Consider copper at 0.09 PPM. 1m3 of seawater holds 90 mg of Cu. Process a volume equal to an Olympic size swimming pool (~2500 m3) and you could recover up to 225g of Cu, depending on your extraction efficiency.

    That doesn't sound like much, but sea water is free and we have an inexhaustible supply of it. What will the cost be for recovery of a 1/4 kg of elemental Cu from an asteroid located 100s of millions of kms away? or from the moon?

    Keep in mind that currently there are commercial operators who are extracting the most abundant metals Na, Mg, Ca and K from seawater. If resource depletion results in the scarcity going thru the roof and price follows, who is to say that we can't do the same for the other trace metals? What would be easier and cheaper - seawater extraction or heading off-world to try mining a bunch of undifferentiated interplanetary rocks?

    Vann7

    Posts : 3782
    Points : 3888
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:09 am

    Russia engineers already have said that their Moon base project ,will be for mining Helium-3.
    So apparently they know something ,that skeptics don't.. The savings you will have in electricity
    bills will surpass the cost of the trip..

    Another area Russia can work is weather modification for economic - tourism purposes..
    With a giant Super heavy space ship , Russia could deploy a giant magnifying glass in space that could be
    used to make warmer some regions in Russia in cold seasons. In space for having no gravity. there is no limit in the size of the things you can build there. You can literary create an entire colony in space and make fantasy science fiction movies a reality. and develop some level of artificial gravity too , used some orbital motion tricks . All this things will
    advance Russia technology Industry to a whole new level. and the best thing of all . it will promote a lot science
    in Russia ,instead of meaningless sports. Everyone in Russia will want to work in Russia space industry and  most
    people will seek engineering careers in electronic and chemistry and physics..  This also promotes National unity.
    and will boost Russia world image significantly...  

    A true ambitious space program ,will take Russia into a totally new level .surpassing the west in everything.
    and this also will have endless multi uses ,for military purposes too. What is expensive ,is that Russia allows Americans
    to dominate in space.. and become the second or third best . That will make Russia even more a disrespected nation
    in the world and it will not help Russia to end the western Aggression ,Sanctions .and the  conflicts they provoke on
    countries Russia have major interest.




    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:34 pm; edited 3 times in total
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11403
    Points : 11882
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:10 pm

    KOROLYOV /Moscow region/, February 28. /TASS/. The Soyuz MS-06 space capsule carrying three space travelers returning from the International Space Station (ISS) has landed in Kazakhstan 146 kilometers southeast of the city of Zhezkazgan, said a source in the Russian Mission Control Center located in the Moscow region.

    More:
    http://tass.com/science/991841


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:50 am

    Soyuz rocket successfully launches fourth O3b quartet

    On March 9, 2018, a Soyuz rocket successfully delivered the fourth quartet of O3b satellites, to be operated by SES networks and designed to provide low-cost Internet access around the world, after lifting off from its Amazon region launch pad in French Guiana. The European Arianespace consortium, which operates commercial Soyuz launches from the South-American launch site, designated the mission as VS18, which denotes the 18th launch of the Russian-built rocket from the site.

    More at http://www.russianspaceweb.com/o3b-flight4.html

    Vann7

    Posts : 3782
    Points : 3888
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:40 pm

    Really interesting video..
    Even when is a music , it summarize very well about 75% of the
    major contradictions of the NASA moon landing.. This is one powerful
    Reason why is Important for Russia to land first in the moon.. to the same
    NASA landing place.. that will totally destroy americans narrative and will trigger
    major lawsuits world wide for the losses and books written ,teaching fake moon landing.
    and also major corruption investigation to search ,where the money for the moon landing
    was really used.. to see who profit and became billionaires at the expense of American
    People..  The next video.. ignore the music , and look carefully the FACTS ,that are presented
    on it.. Even NASA astronaunts admit that NASA don't have technology today to travel across
    the vander allen.. because it was "destroyed"..  how can they pull such stories and pretend
    people to not see the BULLSHIT..



    now if that wasn't enough proof of NASA faked moon landing...
    You have Russia media ,funded by Kremlin doing reports hinting that it was also FAKE..

    NASA doesn’t comment on specific moon hoax theories
    , but it has said in the past that it did go to the moon.


    https://www.rt.com/usa/410360-moon-landing-new-conspiracy/

    here again RT hinting NASA faked the moon landing.

    Russia calls investigation into whether US moon landings happened
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-calls-investigation-into-whether-us-moon-landings-happened-10327714.html

    Is so sad to see people ,that still believe in this BULLSHIT called NASA Moon landings. it never happened..
    Russia RT is hinting every few months with a reports that resurrect the controversy. and RT editorial ,
    even question it in the end... but it has said in the past that it did go to the moon. [/i]..  
    Russia is saying that **NASA says** they did go to the moon.. is not clear this yet? .. Smile

    So lets summarize..
    1)Intercepting shadows
    2)Fake Moon rocks given by NASA To museums
    3)RT hinting it was Fake
    4)Putin close official demanding an international investigation.. not because he doubt Nasa went to the moon..
    noooo.. "don't think is for that".. but becauseeeeeee.. mmm because the moon rocks needs to be protected.
    5)Students of Moscow University proposing a satellite probe to pass close to the landing site.. to
    proof ,that is all conspirancies the controversy. and then RT resurrecting the story again and again.
    6)NASA claims that they destroyed the original footage of NASA landing to "SAve money".. because it was too expensive to store them.  .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dAOcGtJH08

    then you have Jewish Liberals ,major media giants, hired most popular Scientific Celebrities like
    Neil deGrasse Tyson and Michio Kaku and Myth Busters.. in jewish globalist media channels ,hired to silence
    anyone with any questioning of the official story.

    And the one that takes the cake is the body language of Armstrong when he announced
    they will travel to the moon the next day..  here is a video of the most (NOT) happiest man on earth..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCTU1eLTYWM
    The official story loyalist ,justify it saying.. Armstrong was sad because had a bad day.. Laughing
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6627
    Points : 6729
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:03 am


    Nice video Vann, I assume that now will you be posting those videos that prove that Earth is flat?

    Don't stop now, you are on a roll... Smile

    Vann7

    Posts : 3782
    Points : 3888
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:48 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Nice video Vann, I assume that now will you be posting those videos that prove that Earth is flat?

    Don't stop now, you are on a roll... Smile

    no i don't think earth is flat... Neutral
    That claims are just a distraction ,to discredit people that believe
    that the whole NASA moon landing was fake. This is a common tactic .
    The fake moon landing evidence is pretty Solid.. very Strong..
    Not even NASA astronauts deny ,they dont have technology to travel to the moon..

    Apparently they forgot how to do it.. Rolling Eyes
    yet Russia is using the same rocket ,they used in 1970s to travel to space.. and did not forgot
    The whole Moon hoax.. was a hoax.. and is insulting , how people defend it ,with so much clear cut
    evidence it was fake. and from many points of view.. not just one..  as an example ... Proffessional
    Photographers have analyzed NASA photos , that inconveniently they all have numbers of sequences..
    So in every one of NASA photos you will notice an amazing alignment of the pictures , perfectly centered..
    and this was done while astronauts not even could see directly through the camera..and had to guess.
    since the camera was attached to their chest. Photographers say .is Impossible ,to take a thousands of pictures
    and all of them centered.. even for them..with professional cameras is not possible. but astronuts could do it. Rolling Eyes

    This is why Russia government is using RT to revive the NASA moon landing controversy..
    but is not what you think..they say. Laughing   So is there is no controversy ,why RT continue to
    release reports of questionable moon landing ?  Wink    the  marks of the boots on the moon was pretty
    epic.. Fail..and this is why ,you have 2 major Hollywood TV popular scientist ,Neil deGrasse Tyson and Michio Kaku ,
    in damage control ,trying to silence any believers on "conspirations theories" that in reality are not theories but facts.

    This is why Russia government needs to restart the Moon race. go first to the moon.. on the supposed landing
    site of Apollo.  This will allow Russia to blackmail Americans for cooperations or else expose them openly. Very Happy
    with a landing on the place NASA claimed they played golf and ride cars.. Rolling Eyes  
    Exposing NASA fake moon landing will also trigger a questioning of NASA Mars missions ,that many reports
    already claiming the filming is done in an isolated island in north canada  ,and not in mars..
    By Russia exposing the NASA fraud in the moon.. will trigger then ,the most interesting facts about other subjects..
    that will destroy US credibility in the world.. even among the most fanatics.

    This is why US government now outsource space exploration to private companies.. because if they fail ,
    in a moon landing today ,they will have a hard time explaining ,why no longer is easy to go to the moon,.
    if they could do it earlier ... Smile

    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1138
    Points : 1148
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:25 am

    Roskosmos announced plans to make the Russian segment of the ISS autonomous by 2021

    State Corporation Roskosmos expects to make the Russian segment of the ISS autonomous by 2021, for which three additional modules will be launched by this time, the company's CEO Igor Komarov said.

    "We have given our industry the task that by 2021, that is, years before the deadline agreed upon by us for joint work on the ISS, we had the opportunity to secede and work independently within the Russian segment," Komarov said at the forum " Russia is a country of opportunities. "

    "For this, we need to work out and launch new modules, in the next three years we will finally launch, I hope, three modules that will provide autonomy in terms of energy, engines, communication and life support systems, the work of the Russian segment," he added. .

    According to the general director of Roskomos, such measures are taken in case the partners of the Russian Federation refuse to cooperate with the ISS after 2025.

    "At the same time, we believe, and this is our conviction that working together is much more effective and better, this is an example when only cooperation is gained from mutual cooperation," Komarov said.

    http://www.interfax.ru/russia/603598

    I'd like to think that Russia will continue with the ISS for only as long as their current contractual obligations provide. After that, they should sever their section and free-fly away, and leave the fucking Seppo bastards to manage their own affairs...

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat May 26, 2018 12:56 pm