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    Future gunships of Russian Air Force

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    T-47

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    Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  T-47 on Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:29 pm

    First of all we all know what I meant by gunship, yes AC-130 spooky. Proved itself in counter-terrorist operation. Not too excellent but also not too noob-ish to ignore the success. So I'm opening a new thread to discuss it as I didn't find any thread yet.

    At present guided shells are becoming available in greater numbers in Russia. So an aircraft with armored belly, long loiter time, low flying ability and enough defense to evade enemy MANPADs or AA guns would be very useful in low intensity conflict where the air superiority is confirmed ie. Syria.
    In my point of view a small number of gunships should come very handy in RuAF. Large number is not needed because they have their impacts mostly on low intensity conflicts. I'd at max 10 and minimum 5 should be enough. Because there are lots of cases where CAS aircraft are not enough.

    Now about the aircraft! I used to think An-70 or a 4 four engine version of An-140 is the best candidate for this mod but Antonov is dead so those are no longer any option. Jet powered aircraft would be too costly for long loiter and low-mid altitude (Correct me if I'm wrong!). So a Russian turboprop aircraft is needed. Russia currently has Il-112V only to offer as turboprop transport which is too light for gunship role.
    So my thoughts are a 4 engine bigger version Il-112V can be made. Or even Il-214 airframe can be modified for 4 turboprop instead of 2 PD-14! Il-214 is an MTA so it can do the job pretty well. Idk if jet powered can be useful in this role, if yes Il-214 can be directly used without any engine change. Or even the old Il-38s can do!

    Now defenses, first thing I'd put is an armored belly at least to carry on against 23mm gun (or 30?). A bunch load of flares and other defenses obviously needed. Defense systems to detect small projectile as well as missiles from ground. The system should be able to detect AA projectiles and move the aircraft from interception path. Using flares and other defenses as needed.

    Sensors, the focus is on Air to Ground operation so all the latest A2G systems Russia has in production should be considered here. I'm not expert in these so I'm asking you guys to come up with something.

    Weapons, I'd put at least 1x100mm gun of the BMPs. They have low recoil and good HE performance. Also I think their AP/APCR/HEAT can easily penetrate the roof any type of armors in service today or coming in near future. As secondary weapon I'd put at least 1x30mm gun depending on which aircraft we are using. If its big enough 57mm can be used instead of 30mm. Garry's 23mm can be also considered. So there can be 2x23mm gun as well. Where to put these gun I'm asking you guys to write because I'm noob about aircraft balance and space availability stuffs.
    NOTE: enough ammo also need to be carried.
    At wing hardpoints, I'd put 2 in total. For carrying external fuel tanks or ATGM racks like attack helos got.


    I know there are lots of correction needed in my article so please start commenting Smile
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    ZoA

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    Re: Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  ZoA on Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:29 pm

    AC-130 is only useful for slaughtering defenceless peasants in 3th world countries. In essence US conceived is as instant My Lai stile massacre delivery vehicle without need to send in foot soldiers. You need to shred some undefended mud hut village, or butcher bunch of people attending wedding, funeral or other public gathering AC-130 is thing to use. But it is completely useless against anyone even with most primitive of air defence. It would be extremely infective in Syria because of large numbers of track mounted AA guns and machine-guns in that theatre, and outright suicidal to use against any kind of regular army.

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:53 pm

    ZoA wrote:AC-130 is only useful for slaughtering defenceless peasants in 3th world countries. In essence US conceived is as instant My Lai stile massacre delivery vehicle without need to send in foot soldiers. You need to shred some undefended mud hut village, or butcher bunch of people attending wedding, funeral or other public gathering AC-130 is thing to use. But it is completely useless against anyone even with most primitive of air defence. It would be extremely infective in Syria because of large numbers of track mounted AA guns and machine-guns in that theatre, and outright suicidal to use against any kind of regular army.




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    GarryB

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    Re: Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:20 pm

    The whole purpose of the AC-130 is low cost (cheap unguided ammo) delivered accurately by direct fire weapons at ground targets.

    To be honest I think a much better solution for Russia would be a Tu-214 (An-12) equivalent with a 20 ton bomb load of unguided FAB-50 bombs and the Gefest & T targeting system at 5,000m altitude or higher.

    Simpler and easier and cheaper and safer.

    With satellite guided bombs it could rapidly attack a variety of targets too.

    If you want to copy the AC-130 then the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 would be a great substitute for the 105mm gun on the Spooky. A 57mm S-60 cannon would provide punch with the new 57mm guns with guided shells offering a future expansion path, and of course the 30mm gatling as fitted to the MiG-27 would be a useful addition too.

    But again, as I said a medium altitude flying four engine transport plane with lots of dumb bombs and accurate aiming system plus a few satellite guided bombs would be far more use and much safer from ground fire.

    Weapons up to the FAB-9000 could be carried for hard targets too.

    I remember reading about the AC-47 predecessor to the AC-130 in Vietnam where they talking about the great Laotian truck eater to explain the difference in numbers of vehicles claimed killed by the aircraft and the lack of wrecked trucks found after the attacks...

    Not as effective as some like to claim it was... though very spectacular when firing all those guns... vulnerable to even MANPADS... let alone real air defence systems.


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    T-47

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    Re: Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  T-47 on Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:12 pm

    ZoA wrote:AC-130 is only useful for slaughtering defenceless peasants in 3th world countries. In essence US conceived is as instant My Lai stile massacre delivery vehicle without need to send in foot soldiers. You need to shred some undefended mud hut village, or butcher bunch of people attending wedding, funeral or other public gathering AC-130 is thing to use. But it is completely useless against anyone even with most primitive of air defence. It would be extremely infective in Syria because of large numbers of track mounted AA guns and machine-guns in that theatre, and outright suicidal to use against any kind of regular army.

    Firstly just because US did something does not mean its completely useless.
    Secondly you clearly didn't read completely what I wrote. All of your accusations were already explained.


    GarryB wrote:
    To be honest I think a much better solution for Russia would be a Tu-214 (An-12) equivalent with a 20 ton bomb load of unguided FAB-50 bombs and the Gefest & T targeting system at 5,000m altitude or higher.

    Simpler and easier and cheaper and safer.

    Are you sure Jets will be better than turboprop?

    But again, as I said a medium altitude flying four engine transport plane with lots of dumb bombs and accurate aiming system plus a few satellite guided bombs would be far more use and much safer from ground fire.

    Tu-214 is two engine aircraft. And the 100mm can fire guided shells as well.

    Not as effective as some like to claim it was... though very spectacular when firing all those guns... vulnerable to even MANPADS... let alone real air defence systems.

    True that. That is I wrote about very small numbers. Because only certain scenarios it'll be effective. But in those scenarios it'll be helluva effective. For example during the IS attack for retaking Palmyra. 1 gunship was enough to stop the whole offensive. Its armored belly can block shots upto 30mm shells (Su-25 level armor). And from mid altitude it can evade IR guided MANPADs with flares. And with guided shells it can take out those technicals pretty easily and in large number at one sorty.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Future gunships of Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:08 pm

    Firstly just because US did something does not mean its completely useless.
    Secondly you clearly didn't read completely what I wrote. All of your accusations were already explained.

    It is more shock and awe than practical weapon system.
    Horribly vulnerable to any modern air defence system... as mentioned even MANPADS are a threat...

    Are you sure Jets will be better than turboprop?

    There is not need to fly very slow or very low... with modern optics and radar sensors flying above 5km altitude will be safe and at moderate speeds it should be effective enough.

    Tu-214 is two engine aircraft. And the 100mm can fire guided shells as well.

    You are not limited to C-130 sized aircraft... an already in service transport type like the Il-476 could carry 40 tons of light bombs with satellite guidance that are targeted in real time and released out the rear of the aircraft to hit targets as they are detected.

    You could even have a special crew deck with 20 crewmen with a bank of screens and externally 20 targeting pods... each with thermal optics and a laser target marker and each crewman could scan the airspace below the aircraft for targets and mark them manually with their own laser pod with a coded laser beam and have a laser homing bomb released from the rear ramp of the aircraft as the aircraft approaches the target...

    Precision hitting 20 targets at once with other targets of known positions being hit with sat guided bombs... or in the presence of smoke radar could detect target and generate coordinates which can be loaded into sat guided bombs to engage even through oil smoke or snow storms.

    40 tons give enormous combat persistence with bombs weighing from 20kg to 9000kgs... hand released out the rear to parachute dragged out, or ceiling crane released... from 10,000m to allow more manouver time for the guided bombs or a bomb release mechanism for the Gefest and T release of dumb bombs.

    The AC-130s are very expensive aircraft filled with ESM equipment and target detection and tracking equipment, not to mention all the guns it uses and the issues with recoil and noise etc...

    A couple of dozen Su-25s with Mi-28s could also have done some serious damage to a full on attack like that too.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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