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    Russian - French military cooperation:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:50 am

    I suspect there are bits of it they wont even bother copying as the Russian equivalent will be good enough.

    If successful they will likely incorporate the AK-200 or possibly that new bullpup rifle that can be used underwater.

    They are spending lots on communications so they will likely want compatibility and it might result in Russian components they want to use as well and they might have other things they want to retain as well.

    Personally I would think that due to the costs involved that spending should not be too extravagant for the moment... perhaps the FELIN for sub units of the VDV that perform recon or special missions and the Russian equivelent for the rest of the VDV and perhaps naval infantry so that the problems and issues can be worked out and the good bits and bad bits found and the complete sets evaluated.

    The result should be that a final standard base set be created and anything that is not Russian made is bought through a licence production agreement.
    I could imagine that from the base set different modules could be added for different specialist uses.
    For instance all sets will need some level of protection, however some might need protection from small arms fire and fire and the cold of the tundra or the heat of the desert, while others might need protection from fire, or chemical weapons or radiation or in the case of naval infantry they might want fire and small arms protection but in a form that will float.
    There are materials that change colour with temperature that could be used... at minus 10 degrees C and below it becomes white while at temperatures between minus 10 degrees C and 25 degrees C it turns into a woodland camouflage pattern and at 25 degrees C up to "on fire" it turns into a desert camouflage pattern.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:49 am

    Russia set to buy 500 combat vehicles from France

    Russia is in talks with French military manufacturer Panhard on the purchase of 500 light armored vehicles for its border guards, a Russian arms trade watchdog said on Friday.

    "Negotiations are being held on [the purchase of] 3.1-ton light armored vehicles Vehicule Blinde Leger on a 4x4 wheel platform," the Center for the Analysis of the World Arms Trade said on its website, citing Panhard Chairman Christian Mons.

    The contract could amount to $260 million, the statement said.

    The vehicles are meant for the Federal Security Service border guards.

    Russia is also continuing talks with France on a $2 billion contract to buy Mistral class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy.


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:00 am

    Strange about conflict in number: 500 vs 1000? Maybe buying in two groups?

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:11 am

    Or maybe the French loosened the requirements... ie initially you have to make 1,000 or it is not worth it for us to hand over the technology.

    Obviously the Russians will only want to make 500 PVPs as that is enough to get them into service, and is a reasonable overall price for the new production facilities to make them.

    By the time they have built 500 PVPs they will have incorporated the useful features like the armour etc into their own designs.

    Remember these are likely for border patrol etc, but the Russian Army itself will have light brigade forces that could use a vehicle this size, so based on experience in making the PVP they might adapt the useful stuff to an existing design and make 5,000 of them... even a heavy brigade will need small light fast vehicles... these vehicles could be considered a replacement for the Jeep... everything the Humvee should have been. Light, fast, mobile, and with a reasonable level of protection (not a tank, but then not tin foil either).

    The important question is how well does it handle deep snow and/or ice and/or deep mud.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:54 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Strange about conflict in number: 500 vs 1000? Maybe buying in two groups?

    500 PVP and 500 VBL I guess.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:56 pm

    Is BTR-90 a better Armoured vehical compared to BTR-80a that Russian Army planning to procure , in terms of firepower , protection and mobility ?

    Nice video of BTR-90



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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:07 pm

    It is better armoured, though some of the extra weight is from the heavy turret mounted firepower.

    AFAIK they are developing a new vehicle called Gilza which will likely have the engine at the front and ramp rear doors, though I think from memory they will keep the side doors too... in an ambush situation an attack from the rear or the side is far more likely than an attack from the front so being able to exit from the sides and rear is an advantage.

    The BTR-82 they are buying in the mean time have better armour than the BTR-80 that includes a layer of kevlar anti spall liner, but it is just a short term gap filler for the Gilza till it is ready for production.
    The BTR-82 fixes a few minor problems with the BTR-80 like the stabilised guns allow accurate firing on the move, the ammo feed for the 14.5mm guns has been changed to allow continuous fire, where before the ammo was stored in 50 round belts so every 50 rounds fired it needed to have the next belt manually loaded into it. It will also have modern communcations equipment added and it will have some sort of battle management system there too so it becomes a node in the military network.

    The BTR-90 is significantly more expensive than the BTR-82 so talk of its production is perhaps premature, unless someone has heard if both will be produced, or if the BTR-82s will be produced and the BTR-90 production will wait till Gilza is ready and it gets produced instead.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:33 am

    I am not sure if Gilza will ever see the light of the day.

    Some nice photo from Interpolitex 2010 - Exhibition

    Static Display Part-1
    Static Display Part-2

    Exhibition hall part 1
    Exhibition hall part 2

    How can we miss the pretty ladies
    Interpolitex 2010 - Ladies love

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:56 am

    I am not sure if Gilza will ever see the light of the day.

    What alternative is there? Keep making BTR-80s forever?

    Shifting the engine to the front and putting a ramp rear door is not that hard... the BMP-1 and BMP-2 had their engines in the front, and they can put a ramp rear door in an Mi-8 they can certainly do it in an armoured vehicle.

    The thing is that if it doesn't appear the replacement for the BTR series will be French or Italian or German.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:27 am

    I do not think BTR-80 will live for ever but most certainly the 80 and 80a with few BTR-90 will serve the Russian Army for next two decade.

    I personally think this decade will see more of R&D and prototype vehical as far as development of new Tank and Armoured vehical goes , no series production is expected

    And as the new arms program shows there is more stress for the Army in other areas compared to new Tanks and BTR , infact the Army gets the lowest of the three service in the new 2011-2020 program.

    So Gilza or some new tank is something we will have to wait for next decade , while we would see some incrementally upgraded BTR and T's to remain satisfied.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Pervius on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:00 pm

    They better look at electronics on truck real good to make sure it can't be tracked by cellphone towers or remote disabled electronically. Problem you have when buying vehicles from NATO..might be some hidden strings. May need electronics ripped out to run motor/transmission and replaced with self made boxes.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:55 am

    I do not think BTR-80 will live for ever but most certainly the 80 and
    80a with few BTR-90 will serve the Russian Army for next two decade.

    Are they even making any BTR-90s?

    A BTR-90 is not in the same class as the BTR-80... the former is expensive and capable... in many ways a wheeled BMP. The BTR-80 on the other hand is a cheap mobile alternative to a truck.

    It is my understanding that the Russian military are not happy with the BTR-80 and BTR-90 layout and they want them redesigned.

    As a gap filler the BTR-80 will get cosmetic updates and made into the BTR-82 and produced.

    The BTR-90 design is being completely redesigned and called Gilza and will be put into production when ready... with better armour and a better layout.

    If successful the Gilza layout and chassis could be used as the basis for the BTR-84 to replace the BTR-82s, though to keep costs down it might simply used BTR-82 turrets with simpler optics and weapons etc.

    And as the new arms program shows there is more stress for the Army in
    other areas compared to new Tanks and BTR , infact the Army gets the
    lowest of the three service in the new 2011-2020 program.

    A wheeled APC is a numbers machine... there is zero chance of meeting the requirements of 70% new stuff by 2020 if they don't replace their APCs with new vehicles.
    The army is the lowest priority of the services, but it is clear that by 2013 they will have 1,000 Ivecos and 500 PVPs, and when those factories have completed those vehicles they will need something else to produce, the focus now is getting new things into production. The BTR-82s are likely already in production now, the BTR-90 was supposed to be in production a year ago, so they were expecting new vehicles and in the case of the BTR-90 they have not been getting them, so there is a gap right now. If the Gilza can't fill that gap shortly it might be Italian or French or German solutions that are used.

    And as Pervius points out who knows what sort of Easter Eggs the maker might put in. The US was happy to put built in faults into the electronics they supplied the Soviet Union...

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:11 am

    Seems these Hummers were captured by Russian Forces during Georgia conflict

    http://twower.livejournal.com/518110.html#cutid1

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    Russian military aircraft to be equipped with French INS

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:38 am

    SC Rosoboronexport - company of Rostechnologii group - ZAO ITT Inertial Technologies of Technokomplex, and Sagem (Safran group), at International aerospace exhibition MAKS 2011, at a ceremony attended by Vladimir Putin, chief of the government of Russia, and Sergei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostekhnologii, and Jean-Paul Herteman, chairman and CEO of Safran, announced today the creation of RS Alliance, a joint venture, specialized in inertial navigation systems for military aircraft.

    RS-Alliance will be a key manufacturer of defense equipment within the framework of a partnership with Sagem (Safran group). This joint venture will be based in Russia and operating under Russian law.

    The joint venture has been formed primarily to manufacture the new fifth-generation LINS-100RS inertial navigation system, designed to provide military aircraft with high-precision navigation capabilities. A high performing autonomous navigation system, the LINS-100RS integrates latest-generation digital laser gyros.

    Serguei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostechnologii noted: “Cooperation between Russia and France has steadily been building momentum The creation of the RS Alliance joint venture with Sagem is a striking example of this growing cooperation. Deployment of this project is extremely important for the development of economic and commercial cooperation between the two countries, particularly in this innovative high-tech segment.”

    According to Jean-Paul Herteman, Chairman and CEO of Safran: “This new joint venture will enable Sagem to foster the further development of collaboration with the Russian aviation industries. Building on this new partnership, we are especially proud of our role as an active partner in the long-term governmental and industrial collaboration established by Russia and France.”

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:48 am

    Hmm thats nice , Indian Su-30MKI uses Laser INS from French with embedded GPS.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:36 am

    Hmm thats nice , Indian Su-30MKI uses Laser INS from French with embedded GPS.

    By GPS do you mean Navstar or Glonass?

    If you mean Navstar, is it military or commercial?

    This new INS system for Russian aircraft will be Glonass military, which while not as accurate as Navstar military is certainly more reliable than Navstar civilian.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:43 am

    Between this and the Thales VECTOR 100, France takes over another capability gap.


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:00 am

    This is good news as ring laser gyros are very useful bits of kit, and can be used on pretty much any platform including aircraft, weapons, land and sea vehicles etc etc.

    Between this and the Thales VECTOR 100, France takes over another capability gap.

    Takes over is a bit of a stretch...

    Before the end of the Cold War US truck designs dominated Soviet truck parks in terms of lend lease as well as licence produced vehicles produced in the Soviet Union under licence.

    When the cold war started there was suddenly a cutoff/disconnnect from the US, but the Soviet Truck industry survived and continued onwards developing new trucks.

    If France wants to help improve the Russian military that is OK.

    If they start getting belligerent and start trying to pull strings to get some control, then those strings can be cut and either that money spent in other countries for the same thing, or spent on a domestic capability.

    Very simply using French material reduces development costs and gets Russia up to speed in terms of new technology. It will be more expensive than if some magic Russian company had kept up with the latest technology, but in the real world where Russian companies have been left behind it offers some a chance to catch up and puts them on a more level playing field than they would be without the partnership with France.

    It is also helping the French, so don't think it is France just doing Russia a favour.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:26 am

    GarryB wrote:By GPS do you mean Navstar or Glonass?

    If you mean Navstar, is it military or commercial?

    I mean Navstar and its commercial , since military signal is not available to India.

    I saw the latest Sigma 95 has embedded GPS and GLONASS receiver , but when these equipment was selected some time back in early 2000 the glonass option was not viable then.

    This is the one MKI uses http://www.sagem-ds.com/spip.php?rubrique51


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    FELIN vs Barmista Warrior Future Soldier System

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:07 am

    FELIN vs Barmista Warrior Future Soldier System

    The program "A soldier of the future", supported by armies of many countries around the world, will help to equip soldiers with the latest technology in order to increase their effectiveness in combat. This program includes the modernization of armaments, not only soldiers, but the technology and body armor, surveillance systems, as well as increasing the mobility of an individual soldier by the presence of individual portable energy sources.

    In the late 1990s, France started the program FELIN, designed to create complex weapons infantryman of the XXI century. FELIN (Fr. abbreviation Fantassin a Equiperments et Liassons Integres) - a set of individual equipment, featuring a modular design and open architecture, the so-called future soldier kit. In Russia it was first shown at MAKS-2009 and even then he drew the attention of our military.

    The head of Russian Armed Forces General Staff, Army General Nikolai Makarov, said that the Ministry of Defense plans to buy several sets of equipment for testing. The kit includes tools FELIN body armor based on his waistcoat and unloading which are mounted armored, backpack with a capacity for potable water, as well as space for the spare stores and hand grenades.



    What is a Russian KBES? The same elements as in FELIN, only domestic production. This battle set the security 6B21 "Permyachka or costume crew BM 6B15" Cowboy ", the machine Nikonov AN94, SVD sniper rifle with a sight 1PN106-01 machine gun panel 'Pecheneg." Fighters can use thermal imaging sight, "Shahin" and TV sight.

    True, it weighs a full set of 36 kg and the other parameters it is not inferior, according to representatives of the Central Scientific Research Institute "Tochmash" French. In addition, "Permyachka" was tested during the fighting in the North Caucasus, where shown, according to experts CRI "Tochmash" very positive results. Moreover, it has developed a promising KBES "Warrior," which will be used all the latest achievements of science and technology, including such popular today nanotechnology.

    What to choose? In economic terms, domestic KBES is much cheaper. Then, as an old Russian proverb says, not all gold that glitters. For example, the former chief weapons of the Armed Forces, Colonel-General Anatoly Sitnov argues that Western military equipment is not better than ours, and sometimes worse.

    No need to believe Hollywood movies, where the Americans or the French war in the desert at 38-40 degrees plus with raised bronevorotnikami dressed as knights in armor vests, special protective clothing, helmets, boots. This gear can not only run but also to breathe, or just sit, Boil, as soft-boiled egg. Or perhaps, hard-boiled. And experts on arms is generally considered that in Western KBES'll either tear armored collar or trim back the helmet, because in certain positions firing lying down, try to raise as an infantryman's head, the helmet certainly rested in the back and collar will slip on the eye.

    And in this situation is very difficult to shoot. The same number of Western vests are inferior to bullet resistance and vitality to domestic developments. Perhaps he was right the head of "Rosoboronexport" Anatoly Isaikin, when, in answer to a question about buying Western weapons, he replied that it was necessary to buy "a certain number of samples for comparative tests." This, he says, is absolutely normal. Already a batch, mass production should be organized in Russia.

    Infantryman can use personal weapons: machine gun FAMAS F1, light machine gun FN Minimi sniper rifle and FR-F2. All these weapons are equipped with new sights and day and night vision, c improved means targeting, as well as small-sized camcorder. Combat helmet kit has built-in communications and optoelectronic processing system and display information. In addition, this helmet is built in a protective mask for use in case of enemy weapons of mass destruction.



    It allows the soldier, not removing it, eat, drink and even smoke what else is good is the system? Using its fighters ever know the exact location of their comrades and the enemy can negotiate without raising his voice even at the strongest din of battle. The weight of the kit is not more than 26 pounds. Well, its value is large enough - about 45 thousand dollars

    Is there a similar development in Russia? There is. At MAKS -2011 exhibition in CRI "Tochmash" was first presented to the new Russian military equipment set soldier (KBES) type "Barmitsa", developed by leading role of the Institute with the participation of more than 20 enterprises of the national defense. The kit, which includes the basic elements of system destruction, protection, management, and life-energy, aroused great interest among domestic and foreign experts, media representatives and visitors.



    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:08 am

    I post about the new Future Soldier and I get no replies? At least Garry!

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:40 am

    Sorry Vlad, I did read it and found it interesting, but it lacks details.

    If it had direct comparisons between FELIN and the 36kg Russian version, then there would be more to talk about.

    It mentions that the Russian body armour is better, but that could be an area where the French have made weight saving decisions to keep overall weight low.
    It mentions the Russian domestic model is cheaper, which perhaps suggests a combined French Russian set for export to third countries to reduce costs and improve sales potential.

    It is just hard to make a comparison without details and specifications of each set.

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    Russian Military plans to buy 100 French Helicopters

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:41 pm

    Russian Military plans to buy 100 French Helicopters



    MOSCOW, February 22 (RIA Novosti)

    The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to buy at least 45 light multipurpose helicopters from a foreign manufacturer, Vedomosti daily said on Wednesday.

    The paper cited a defense industry source as saying that a contract worth over 6 billion rubles ($201 mln) for the purchase of fifteen AS350 and thirty AS355 Ecureil helicopters made by Eurocopter is in the works.

    The Defense Ministry may order a total of 100 helicopters of this type mainly for training purposes.
    A joint venture with Eurocopter could be set up for the assembly of AS350/355 in Russia, the source said.

    The purchase of light helicopters abroad shows the urgent need for light helicopters by the Russian military, as domestic Ansats and Ka-226s are just entering the market while the Mi-34 is still under testing.

    The Eurocopter AS350 is a single-engined light helicopter while the AS355 is a twin-engine variant. Both versions have been produced since the mid-1970s and sales remain strong.

    Russian Military Plans to Buy Foreign Helicopters – Media | Defense | RIA Novosti

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:56 pm

    So far the number floated has been 15 single engine, and 30 twin engine.

    For training I don't see why they would go to Eurocopter. Ansat-U has already been entering service specifically for training.

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    Whats the reason for this purchase?

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:40 am

    It seems they have gone really frenchy. Are they going to put these on the mistral tongue
    Its seems pretty impratical for any military situation, well except giving generals and high rankers new cars to drive in.
    I dont see any mutual benefit between Russia and France, it just seems like a russian handout to france.
    If they really wanted a light helicopter they should have gone with and amerikanyet UH-6M.
    This money to buy that eurocopter should be going in russian plants so people in russian would benefit from their taxes not the frenchies

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