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    Russian-French military cooperation

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    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:17 am

    "The technical and military concept behind the A4 AVL comes from the French Army, which is currently procuring a new generation of armored vehicles. Apart from a high useful load capacity, the French Army has placed the accent on effective ballistic protection and operational versatility in line with its new mission profile. The crew compartment as well as the engine have been protected through the addition aluminum and steel plates with thickness ranging from 6mm to 10mm. Modern military operations demand a high mobile, liaison vehicle such as Auverland A4 AVL. "

    Nothing so special.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  psg on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:43 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I wonder what specific technology they are after?

    Engines, transmission and above all ballistic protection.


    will they not get those from the lmv? i agree with ironsightsniper.
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    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:18 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:"The technical and military concept behind the A4 AVL comes from the French Army, which is currently procuring a new generation of armored vehicles. Apart from a high useful load capacity, the French Army has placed the accent on effective ballistic protection and operational versatility in line with its new mission profile. The crew compartment as well as the engine have been protected through the addition aluminum and steel plates with thickness ranging from 6mm to 10mm. Modern military operations demand a high mobile, liaison vehicle such as Auverland A4 AVL. "

    Nothing so special.

    It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:45 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

    Compared to this what kind of protection can Tigr-M offer ?
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:07 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

    Compared to this what kind of protection can Tigr-M offer ?

    Tiger-M has 5mm plates and weighs 7t. Can increase armour but makes p/w ratio unusable. PVP is light, high p/w and well armoured. It makes an excellent light transport. Not to say we do not need a good 7t vehicle.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:46 am

    Tiger-M has 5mm plates and weighs 7t. Can increase armour but makes p/w
    ratio unusable. PVP is light, high p/w and well armoured. It makes an
    excellent light transport. Not to say we do not need a good 7t
    vehicle.

    Well if the PVP info is correct then once it is in production the new armour could be produced for the Tiger-M as well and either make it lighter which wont be that necessary as the PVP will have been produced, or make it better protected which will make it even better. It might also be useful for the interior ministry forces to have different vehicles from the military from a political point of view.
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    Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am


    Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear

    RIA Novosti

    13:20 24/02/2011

    MOSCOW, February 24 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is holding talks with France on the purchase of Felin advanced "future soldier" equipment, which includes new combat clothing with body armor and a new ballistic helmet, weapons, and a portable computer.

    "We will take several Felin sets, we are currently in talks with our French partners," First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said on Thursday.

    Felin, produced by France's Sagem Defense & Security, is currently entering service with the French Army. The system includes a vest containing an integrated radio and GPS system, a hardened laptop computer and advanced optronics.

    The new Russian state arms procurement plan includes the creation of a Russian analog of the system, Popovkin said.

    "We need something no less capable than the equipment that is now being studied by the United States, Germany and other states," he said.

    The Russian military command places the lives of its soldiers above all else, Popovkin said, which is why it had concluded an agreement with Italy's IVECO for armored vehicles to be made in Russia.

    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110224-rianovosti02.htm

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:21 am

    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.

    I should also add that a Russian produced FELIN would be good for deployment with Russian Special Units and hopefully Russian makers will learn a lot from this French gear but ultimately what they want is kit that every soldier could be issued with as standard gear. This would bring the C4IR right down to the individual soldier which should be the ultimate goal.

    I think most people understand the performance and management difference between having 100 separate computers where data transfer is by floppy disk and only one computer is connected to the printer so to print you need access to that computer, and having a computer network where all 100 computers can share information and software and access to printers and scanners and the internet etc.

    Will be very expensive of course, but all the components are having to be developed anyway... now however they are being developed as a set so some items can be combined to simplify or even improve performance.

    For instance a big heavy battery plus big heavy body armour will be a problem. Making the battery a gel battery that fits like a vest under the body armour will make the body armour a bit more comfortable to wear and add a bit of trauma padding while at the same time being a battery. Obviously the armour vest will be heavy and the battery will be heavy, but making the battery a trauma liner for the armour vest will spread the weight and make it easier to carry and at the same time make the armour more comfortable and more effective hopefully while making the battery slightly lighter or longer lasting etc etc.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:32 am

    GarryB wrote:
    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.

    BullZ Eye!! But he is a general ( can't wait for him to get canned) But about the gear, hope it works!
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:18 am

    The first stuff will likely be bulky as they put in everything they want, but like anything the soldiers will pare away the stuff they really need and "lose" the rest.
    Hopefully over time everything they want becomes lighter and multipurpose gear can reduce the number and bulk of what is included and a more realistic evaluation of what is needed and what is wanted will make it simpler and lighter and more comfortable.
    Lots of testing and feedback and communication between the makers and good research on what everyone else is doing should lead to something good.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:52 am

    The trials are over and the General Staff like it. Wonder how many they want. I think fitting VDV rapid reaction units would be enough until we figure out how to copy it.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:50 am

    I suspect there are bits of it they wont even bother copying as the Russian equivalent will be good enough.

    If successful they will likely incorporate the AK-200 or possibly that new bullpup rifle that can be used underwater.

    They are spending lots on communications so they will likely want compatibility and it might result in Russian components they want to use as well and they might have other things they want to retain as well.

    Personally I would think that due to the costs involved that spending should not be too extravagant for the moment... perhaps the FELIN for sub units of the VDV that perform recon or special missions and the Russian equivelent for the rest of the VDV and perhaps naval infantry so that the problems and issues can be worked out and the good bits and bad bits found and the complete sets evaluated.

    The result should be that a final standard base set be created and anything that is not Russian made is bought through a licence production agreement.
    I could imagine that from the base set different modules could be added for different specialist uses.
    For instance all sets will need some level of protection, however some might need protection from small arms fire and fire and the cold of the tundra or the heat of the desert, while others might need protection from fire, or chemical weapons or radiation or in the case of naval infantry they might want fire and small arms protection but in a form that will float.
    There are materials that change colour with temperature that could be used... at minus 10 degrees C and below it becomes white while at temperatures between minus 10 degrees C and 25 degrees C it turns into a woodland camouflage pattern and at 25 degrees C up to "on fire" it turns into a desert camouflage pattern.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:49 am

    Russia set to buy 500 combat vehicles from France

    Russia is in talks with French military manufacturer Panhard on the purchase of 500 light armored vehicles for its border guards, a Russian arms trade watchdog said on Friday.

    "Negotiations are being held on [the purchase of] 3.1-ton light armored vehicles Vehicule Blinde Leger on a 4x4 wheel platform," the Center for the Analysis of the World Arms Trade said on its website, citing Panhard Chairman Christian Mons.

    The contract could amount to $260 million, the statement said.

    The vehicles are meant for the Federal Security Service border guards.

    Russia is also continuing talks with France on a $2 billion contract to buy Mistral class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:00 am

    Strange about conflict in number: 500 vs 1000? Maybe buying in two groups?
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:11 am

    Or maybe the French loosened the requirements... ie initially you have to make 1,000 or it is not worth it for us to hand over the technology.

    Obviously the Russians will only want to make 500 PVPs as that is enough to get them into service, and is a reasonable overall price for the new production facilities to make them.

    By the time they have built 500 PVPs they will have incorporated the useful features like the armour etc into their own designs.

    Remember these are likely for border patrol etc, but the Russian Army itself will have light brigade forces that could use a vehicle this size, so based on experience in making the PVP they might adapt the useful stuff to an existing design and make 5,000 of them... even a heavy brigade will need small light fast vehicles... these vehicles could be considered a replacement for the Jeep... everything the Humvee should have been. Light, fast, mobile, and with a reasonable level of protection (not a tank, but then not tin foil either).

    The important question is how well does it handle deep snow and/or ice and/or deep mud.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:54 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:Strange about conflict in number: 500 vs 1000? Maybe buying in two groups?

    500 PVP and 500 VBL I guess.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:56 pm

    Is BTR-90 a better Armoured vehical compared to BTR-80a that Russian Army planning to procure , in terms of firepower , protection and mobility ?

    Nice video of BTR-90


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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:07 pm

    It is better armoured, though some of the extra weight is from the heavy turret mounted firepower.

    AFAIK they are developing a new vehicle called Gilza which will likely have the engine at the front and ramp rear doors, though I think from memory they will keep the side doors too... in an ambush situation an attack from the rear or the side is far more likely than an attack from the front so being able to exit from the sides and rear is an advantage.

    The BTR-82 they are buying in the mean time have better armour than the BTR-80 that includes a layer of kevlar anti spall liner, but it is just a short term gap filler for the Gilza till it is ready for production.
    The BTR-82 fixes a few minor problems with the BTR-80 like the stabilised guns allow accurate firing on the move, the ammo feed for the 14.5mm guns has been changed to allow continuous fire, where before the ammo was stored in 50 round belts so every 50 rounds fired it needed to have the next belt manually loaded into it. It will also have modern communcations equipment added and it will have some sort of battle management system there too so it becomes a node in the military network.

    The BTR-90 is significantly more expensive than the BTR-82 so talk of its production is perhaps premature, unless someone has heard if both will be produced, or if the BTR-82s will be produced and the BTR-90 production will wait till Gilza is ready and it gets produced instead.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:33 am

    I am not sure if Gilza will ever see the light of the day.

    Some nice photo from Interpolitex 2010 - Exhibition

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:56 am

    I am not sure if Gilza will ever see the light of the day.

    What alternative is there? Keep making BTR-80s forever?

    Shifting the engine to the front and putting a ramp rear door is not that hard... the BMP-1 and BMP-2 had their engines in the front, and they can put a ramp rear door in an Mi-8 they can certainly do it in an armoured vehicle.

    The thing is that if it doesn't appear the replacement for the BTR series will be French or Italian or German.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:27 am

    I do not think BTR-80 will live for ever but most certainly the 80 and 80a with few BTR-90 will serve the Russian Army for next two decade.

    I personally think this decade will see more of R&D and prototype vehical as far as development of new Tank and Armoured vehical goes , no series production is expected

    And as the new arms program shows there is more stress for the Army in other areas compared to new Tanks and BTR , infact the Army gets the lowest of the three service in the new 2011-2020 program.

    So Gilza or some new tank is something we will have to wait for next decade , while we would see some incrementally upgraded BTR and T's to remain satisfied.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Pervius on Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:00 pm

    They better look at electronics on truck real good to make sure it can't be tracked by cellphone towers or remote disabled electronically. Problem you have when buying vehicles from NATO..might be some hidden strings. May need electronics ripped out to run motor/transmission and replaced with self made boxes.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:55 am

    I do not think BTR-80 will live for ever but most certainly the 80 and
    80a with few BTR-90 will serve the Russian Army for next two decade.

    Are they even making any BTR-90s?

    A BTR-90 is not in the same class as the BTR-80... the former is expensive and capable... in many ways a wheeled BMP. The BTR-80 on the other hand is a cheap mobile alternative to a truck.

    It is my understanding that the Russian military are not happy with the BTR-80 and BTR-90 layout and they want them redesigned.

    As a gap filler the BTR-80 will get cosmetic updates and made into the BTR-82 and produced.

    The BTR-90 design is being completely redesigned and called Gilza and will be put into production when ready... with better armour and a better layout.

    If successful the Gilza layout and chassis could be used as the basis for the BTR-84 to replace the BTR-82s, though to keep costs down it might simply used BTR-82 turrets with simpler optics and weapons etc.

    And as the new arms program shows there is more stress for the Army in
    other areas compared to new Tanks and BTR , infact the Army gets the
    lowest of the three service in the new 2011-2020 program.

    A wheeled APC is a numbers machine... there is zero chance of meeting the requirements of 70% new stuff by 2020 if they don't replace their APCs with new vehicles.
    The army is the lowest priority of the services, but it is clear that by 2013 they will have 1,000 Ivecos and 500 PVPs, and when those factories have completed those vehicles they will need something else to produce, the focus now is getting new things into production. The BTR-82s are likely already in production now, the BTR-90 was supposed to be in production a year ago, so they were expecting new vehicles and in the case of the BTR-90 they have not been getting them, so there is a gap right now. If the Gilza can't fill that gap shortly it might be Italian or French or German solutions that are used.

    And as Pervius points out who knows what sort of Easter Eggs the maker might put in. The US was happy to put built in faults into the electronics they supplied the Soviet Union...

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:11 am

    Seems these Hummers were captured by Russian Forces during Georgia conflict

    http://twower.livejournal.com/518110.html#cutid1
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    Russian military aircraft to be equipped with French INS

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:38 am

    SC Rosoboronexport - company of Rostechnologii group - ZAO ITT Inertial Technologies of Technokomplex, and Sagem (Safran group), at International aerospace exhibition MAKS 2011, at a ceremony attended by Vladimir Putin, chief of the government of Russia, and Sergei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostekhnologii, and Jean-Paul Herteman, chairman and CEO of Safran, announced today the creation of RS Alliance, a joint venture, specialized in inertial navigation systems for military aircraft.

    RS-Alliance will be a key manufacturer of defense equipment within the framework of a partnership with Sagem (Safran group). This joint venture will be based in Russia and operating under Russian law.

    The joint venture has been formed primarily to manufacture the new fifth-generation LINS-100RS inertial navigation system, designed to provide military aircraft with high-precision navigation capabilities. A high performing autonomous navigation system, the LINS-100RS integrates latest-generation digital laser gyros.

    Serguei Chernezov, Chief Executive of Rostechnologii noted: “Cooperation between Russia and France has steadily been building momentum The creation of the RS Alliance joint venture with Sagem is a striking example of this growing cooperation. Deployment of this project is extremely important for the development of economic and commercial cooperation between the two countries, particularly in this innovative high-tech segment.”

    According to Jean-Paul Herteman, Chairman and CEO of Safran: “This new joint venture will enable Sagem to foster the further development of collaboration with the Russian aviation industries. Building on this new partnership, we are especially proud of our role as an active partner in the long-term governmental and industrial collaboration established by Russia and France.”

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