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    Russian - French military cooperation:

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    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russian Army is supposed to have bought the tank simulators for the Burlak (Barge Hauler) program, that is the basis for the speculation that it is still "live".

    Why would they buy simulators before they induct the platform?

    If the purpose of Burlak was to improve the performance of the tanks in Russian Service and there was no money then I could understand not spending it for now and then looking at the problem in 5-10 years.

    We can't wait 5-10 years. We are spending the money in the next two which is why France and Germany are the only source of technology.

    The Burlak upgrade however should actually simplify logistics and training as well as remove lots of old stuff from the Armoury, which is something politicians have been harping on about for some time.

    T-90 and T-72 already share standardisation, don't need Burlak for that.

    From other "deals" like those with Thales of France, it is clear that if they decide to go with French and German designs they will certainly put them in the design, but they wont just buy them all from France and Germany, they might buy 500-1000 units of whatever they want, like engines and transmissions, and thermal sights, and radios, and land battle management system, but that will only be the first 500-1000... the rest will be built under licence in Russia for the remaining 5-6 thousand tanks.

    There isn't going to be an upgrade of 5-6 thousand tanks. The storage tanks will sit as is. The 2200 front-line tanks are those going to be upgraded. I doubt they will even get around to upgrading many T-72s. If we can stop exporting T-90 we can have the full lot number after 2017.

    If the French or German component is markedly superior to the Russian equivelent in the Burlak upgrade then replace the Russian component with the French or German component and have the maker of the Russian component the licence producer of that French or German component. The Russian producer will get a factory upgrade and be trained to make the new component the French or German way.

    Then it doesn't make it a Burlak upgrade now does it. Rolling Eyes




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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:57 am

    Why would they buy simulators before they induct the platform?

    I don't know for sure but would speculate that if a simulator has been developed already then they have been properly funded so far and for the Army to adopt them suggests the simulators do the job of training soldiers to drive tanks without actually taking tanks out and wearing them out.
    The small production numbers right now suggest to me that they are just trickling the T-90 into service while its final production upgrade is being perfected... it seems that what they have developed so far is not satisfactory to some, but an upgrade and final production model will be developed... they can't just continue with what they have, especially now that the T-95 has lost funding too.
    As it is now it has faults and the purpose of Burlak is to fix as many of those faults and introduce modern features like battle management systems and turret bustle autoloaders and new ERA that was developed a while ago but hasn't been used yet on a Russian tank.
    It gets stuff into service that has been in development for a while and that is a good thing.

    We can't wait 5-10 years. We are spending the money in the next two which is why France and Germany are the only source of technology.

    So you want to throw out the existing solution and the next gen tank and just buy bits from France and Germany?
    The stuff from Germany is just light armour.
    Very simply if you make a light armoured vehicle from steel you start getting problems because if you can only have x kgs of weight for the armour then steel armour can get rather thin. All of a sudden it is not thick enough to take a rough ride across country so one solution is to use lighter material like Aluminium.
    Al is so light you can have a sheet 30mm thick where with steel a 5mm sheet weighs the same. The problem is that a 5mm thick sheet of steel is not strong enough structurally when you are bouncing across country in a 15 ton vehicle and you get hull cracks and structural failure. That means you need to build a superstructure that you fit the sheet steel armour to, which makes the vehicle much heavier without adding protection.
    With Al armour, or even composite material, because it is so light you can use lots of layers or much thicker sheets so the armour can be the hull of the vehicle and all the components can be hung off that. It makes the vehicle lighter.
    What Germany has is a way of making sheet armour that is light and yet thick and strong enough to use as both armour and structure for the vehicle it is used on.
    The only deal will be a maker of armour in Russia will licence produce the new German armour for light vehicles and then that will be used in new light armour in Russia, for example the BTR-90 is going to get a makeover no doubt where the engine will likely be moved to the front so rear hull doors can be added. It will probably get new thicker German light armour for better protection without dramatically increasing weight.

    BTW from what I have read they really don't want to spend money on tanks and will be giving away lots and disposing of a lot more.

    With the transition to military districts we might see forces being equipped to suit their location, with mostly tracked vehicles in the more rugged areas and more wheeled vehicles in the western areas.

    T-90 and T-72 already share standardisation, don't need Burlak for that.

    The only thing the T-72 and the T-90 have in common is that they were made in the same factory. The T-90 is a cheap and cheerful T-72 with its guts ripped out and replaced with state of the art stuff as used in the T-80 so that it could compete with said vehicle.
    The T-72s in service will have a different gun, different engines, different wheels and tracks, different FCS etc etc even the ERA is different between models, and if you want a net centric army then you need digital battle management systems and good navigation and communications systems in all your vehicles.
    Even the BTR-82/-82A s are getting new navigation and communications stuff and new fire control systems that apparently includes time fused 30mm shells similar to the ANIET system for the 125mm HE rounds.

    There isn't going to be an upgrade of 5-6 thousand tanks. The storage tanks will sit as is. The 2200 front-line tanks are those going to be upgraded. I doubt they will even get around to upgrading many T-72s. If we can stop exporting T-90 we can have the full lot number after 2017.

    After freeing up the cost of storing and maintaining 20,000 tanks the cost of 6,000 tanks will be much easier to manage. Upgrading them to the same standard to share the same parts will make it cheaper to own and use them. Just upgrading the 2,200 that you use will be a pain in the butt when it comes time to actually get a few out of storage only to find the ERA it used is no longer in production and the HE inserts for the stuff used in the 2,200 operational vehicles doesn't fit, or that there are no spares for the engines of the vehicles in storage etc etc.
    It doesn't need to be done all at once, but gradually all of the tanks in storage should be given periodic overhauls where standardised equipment should be added.
    This would be the easiest and cheapest way to standardise the equipment and to take advantage of large production runs.

    Then it doesn't make it a Burlak upgrade now does it.

    It was never set in stone. It could be argued that the Burlak upgrade has already incorporated elements of the Black Eagle mockup with its turret bustle autoloader anyway. The point is that they need an upgrade that can become a new production standard for future T-90s and to apply to the tanks you are going to keep.
    It certainly already included French thermal sights licence produced in Russia, if it now adds communications, navigation, FCS, and other products of Thales then I would guess that was because they were better than those used in Burlak originally... and that is a good thing. I have read that lots of components of Burlak were foreign anyway but there were problems with supply where components were substandard and the designers were making their own substitute parts. It might be that some parts were coming from traditional suppliers of components for Soviet tanks, ie from Belarus or the Ukraine or whereever. Now it seems they will come from France... it only makes the T-90 better.
    What I don't want to see is the T-90 left as it is trickling into service, T-95 cancelled and nothing to replace the T-90 and the mighty Russian tank industry reduced to a production workshop for French tank designs.

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    Russia may buy French UAVs - Serdyukov

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:07 pm


    Russia would be willing to purchase French spy drones, if successful, the deal with the "Mistral" - Serdyukov


    MOSCOW, September 8. Itar-Tass. If successful, a deal with helicopter "Mistral," the Russian defense ministry is ready to consider the proposals of the French side to supply unmanned aircraft and the development of military-technical cooperation in other areas, said Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov.

    "The French side expressed its wish to work in this area. We offered to do it in the form of joint ventures on the basis of our repair works. If we all get on the" Mistral "and we earn such an experience, then later it goes in other directions, in including by unmanned aerial vehicles. The relevant supply, we have "- Serdyukov told reporters following last Tuesday in Paris 1X meeting of the Council of the Russian-French cooperation on security issues at the level of foreign ministers and defense ministers of the two countries.

    On Tuesday following the meeting of the Council of the participants received the French president Nicolas Sarkozy. According to Serdyukov, during the meeting focused on "training the imminent meeting between Russia, France and Germany. "We talked about the situation in Afghanistan, about the possible purchase of Russian amphibious assault helicopter," - he said.

    As you know, France is proposing to buy Russian ships of this class type "Mistral". "The French do not conceal that they are interested in such cooperation. We are interested too," - said Serdyukov. According to his assessment. "The French are more interested in the military aspects of cooperation with Russia."

    The minister said that in the next two weeks, the military authorities of the two countries will create a High Level Working Group, which will prepare a plan of bilateral military cooperation in 2011. "During the talks in Paris, we agreed that in the next 15 days will be set up working groups to prepare military cooperation plan for 2011, which will be more intense compared with the current year - explained Serdyukov. - As part of these groups will be discussed and questions of military-technical cooperation. These groups will consist of the persons entitled to a certain extent, take some decisions, that is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces may be, their deputies. "I believe in the work of these groups likely will offer, in particular, to conduct joint exercises - said Serdyukov. - I'm sure we'll get to some, albeit minor, joint exercises, in particular, anti-piracy theme.

    The Minister also said that during talks in Paris and discussed the themes of defense. "The French have heard our estimation, they want work in this field - he said. - First there - a threat assessment. The second - which forces you can do it. Cooperation in this area - is a matter for future discussion.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:38 pm

    wow .. yesterday Israelis and now French

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:31 am

    The title is a bit misleading as what is being considered is joint ventures with france to develop new UAVs rather than Russia buying off the shelf French UAVs.

    I would suspect the Russians will learn a lot from operating the Israeli UAVs they have bought, but I think the cost of buying them included too many strings... likely in regard to sales of S-300 to Iran and missiles to Syria etc etc.

    Working with the French on UAVs will lead to good designs entering Russian military service IMHO.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:27 am

    I just noticed that in a couple of my posts in this thread I have mentioned one of the advantages of unifying the designs of in service Russian tanks will be the reduction in tank gun calibres and I mention the 100mm smoothbore being removed from service.
    Of course I was referring to the T-54/-55s rifled 100mm gun, so my error. Smile

    I also have noticed another error, I seem to have misread a quote.

    In post number 4 above I quoted this:

    Tank design and performance, in addition to crew training, are becoming increasingly important at a time when Moscow has decided to reduce Russia's tank force from over 20,000 operational and reserve vehicles to 2,000 operational and 5,000-6,000 in reserve.

    Which clearly shows plans for 2,000 operational tanks PLUS 5-6,000 tanks in reserve, so we are actually talking about up to 8,000 tanks in total.

    Also note that the emphasis is on crew training and using simulators means training becomes much much cheaper so it would make sense for them to buy simulators as soon as possible with any modifications to the final upgrade added later with a software update. Simulators allow training and crew coordination and unit coordination without burning fuel, using ammo, ripping up landscapes.
    Different scenarios can be tested and day and night operations can be run through without problems.


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:36 am

    5K?

    That is about the price of a decent sniper rifle.

    That is very good, because it is not really about super soldier stuff, this stuff gets its value by extending the networked nodes to include all the individuals in the military.
    Knowing where every man is because they are tied into a local net picture should make friend on friend mistakes less likely and also management of forces clearer.

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    Rosoboronexport and French Sagem have created a JV for the production of INS

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:45 pm

    Rosoboronexport and French Sagem have created a joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems

    MOSCOW, December 10. (ITAR-TASS). Russia and France formed a joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems. As spokesman for Rosoboronexport, Vyacheslav Davydenko, in Moscow on Thursday, during the 15 th meeting of the Russian-French intergovernmental commission on bilateral cooperation, the signing of the Agreement between Rosoboronexport and the company Sagem Difans securitization "to establish joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems. "

    "In the presence of heads of governments of Russia and France was signed by First Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Ivan Goncharenko and president of Sage, Jean-Len Furnero - Davydenko said. - According to the document, the joint venture will operate in the territory of the Russian Federation. The Russian side will hold 51 percent. and French - 49 percent. stocks (shares) in the capital to establish joint ventures. "

    "I am confident that the work of Russian-French joint venture will not only strengthen and expand military-technical cooperation between our countries, but also opens up new prospects for mutually beneficial co-design and manufacture of high-tech products, the exchange of advanced technologies", - said Goncharenko.

    In turn Furnero noted that "this new perspective is a clear confirmation of exceptionally friendly relations established between our two countries both at the industry and at the state level."

    "Sage" - high-tech company, part of the holding company Safran. The company is a world leader in developing and manufacturing optical-electronic systems, avionics, and avionics aviation, maritime and land-based facilities for civilian and military markets. "Sage" is the first in Europe and third in the world for inertial navigation systems for aircraft, ships and ground facilities. Annual sales turnover of more than 1.2 billion euros.

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    Russia in talks to buy 1000 French Panhard PVP armoured vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:14 am

    Russia in talks to buy 1000 French Panhard PVP armoured vehicles

    ABU DHABI, Feb. 21. (ARMS-TASS). French group "Panhard in talks to supply to Russia up to 1 thousand light armored vehicles. Itar-Tass on the International Defense Exhibition IDEX-2011 said commercial director Michel Galand.

    "The Russian side is in talks regarding the purchase of 500 to 1 thousand light armored vehicles, which are supposed to go into service Interior Ministry troops of Russia, - he said. - The contract value could reach 200 to 500 million euros."

    Wheel amphibious armored vehicle "PVP" has a mass of 4 tonnes is anticipated that some machines will be manufactured in France, and some - in Russia. According Galanda, the Russian partner for this project is not yet selected. In the nearest future Russia will be sent two vehicles to test. "After their completion, the first batch of machines can be delivered in six months - said Galand. - Feature of the transaction that we will give Russia the appropriate technology."

    Meanwhile, as reported by the deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin, " Russian authorities did not officially protest" to the leadership of Federal State Unitary Enterprise on practical action on the purchase.

    The group "Panhard" just put the armed forces of France 1000 armored amphibious PVP.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  medo on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:30 pm

    This is interesting. A year or two ago, there were rumors, that Russian MVD will buy Panhard VBLs, but those rumors were negated. Now they are here again. Time will tell if MVD will buy those vehicles.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:21 pm

    medo wrote:This is interesting. A year or two ago, there were rumors, that Russian MVD will buy Panhard VBLs, but those rumors were negated. Now they are here again. Time will tell if MVD will buy those vehicles.

    This is not for VBL but the more modern PVP.

    http://www.panhard.fr/360/index.html

    I do not think this is in conflict with the Iveco negotiations as it is a lighter vehicle.


    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:51 pm

    I wonder what specific technology they are after?

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:48 am

    GarryB wrote:I wonder what specific technology they are after?

    Engines, transmission and above all ballistic protection.


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:05 am

    PVP as in this one
    http://www.armyrecognition.com/french_army_france_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/pvp_a4_avl_panhard_general_defense_small_protected_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_uk.html

    Looks crappy to me

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:17 am

    "The technical and military concept behind the A4 AVL comes from the French Army, which is currently procuring a new generation of armored vehicles. Apart from a high useful load capacity, the French Army has placed the accent on effective ballistic protection and operational versatility in line with its new mission profile. The crew compartment as well as the engine have been protected through the addition aluminum and steel plates with thickness ranging from 6mm to 10mm. Modern military operations demand a high mobile, liaison vehicle such as Auverland A4 AVL. "

    Nothing so special.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  psg on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:43 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I wonder what specific technology they are after?

    Engines, transmission and above all ballistic protection.


    will they not get those from the lmv? i agree with ironsightsniper.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:18 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:"The technical and military concept behind the A4 AVL comes from the French Army, which is currently procuring a new generation of armored vehicles. Apart from a high useful load capacity, the French Army has placed the accent on effective ballistic protection and operational versatility in line with its new mission profile. The crew compartment as well as the engine have been protected through the addition aluminum and steel plates with thickness ranging from 6mm to 10mm. Modern military operations demand a high mobile, liaison vehicle such as Auverland A4 AVL. "

    Nothing so special.

    It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:45 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

    Compared to this what kind of protection can Tigr-M offer ?

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:07 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:It can stop AK-47 armour piercing rounds and has class 2 mine protection. For a light 4t vehicle, it is excellent.

    Compared to this what kind of protection can Tigr-M offer ?

    Tiger-M has 5mm plates and weighs 7t. Can increase armour but makes p/w ratio unusable. PVP is light, high p/w and well armoured. It makes an excellent light transport. Not to say we do not need a good 7t vehicle.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:46 am

    Tiger-M has 5mm plates and weighs 7t. Can increase armour but makes p/w
    ratio unusable. PVP is light, high p/w and well armoured. It makes an
    excellent light transport. Not to say we do not need a good 7t
    vehicle.

    Well if the PVP info is correct then once it is in production the new armour could be produced for the Tiger-M as well and either make it lighter which wont be that necessary as the PVP will have been produced, or make it better protected which will make it even better. It might also be useful for the interior ministry forces to have different vehicles from the military from a political point of view.

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    Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am


    Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear

    RIA Novosti

    13:20 24/02/2011

    MOSCOW, February 24 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is holding talks with France on the purchase of Felin advanced "future soldier" equipment, which includes new combat clothing with body armor and a new ballistic helmet, weapons, and a portable computer.

    "We will take several Felin sets, we are currently in talks with our French partners," First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said on Thursday.

    Felin, produced by France's Sagem Defense & Security, is currently entering service with the French Army. The system includes a vest containing an integrated radio and GPS system, a hardened laptop computer and advanced optronics.

    The new Russian state arms procurement plan includes the creation of a Russian analog of the system, Popovkin said.

    "We need something no less capable than the equipment that is now being studied by the United States, Germany and other states," he said.

    The Russian military command places the lives of its soldiers above all else, Popovkin said, which is why it had concluded an agreement with Italy's IVECO for armored vehicles to be made in Russia.

    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110224-rianovosti02.htm


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:21 am

    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.

    I should also add that a Russian produced FELIN would be good for deployment with Russian Special Units and hopefully Russian makers will learn a lot from this French gear but ultimately what they want is kit that every soldier could be issued with as standard gear. This would bring the C4IR right down to the individual soldier which should be the ultimate goal.

    I think most people understand the performance and management difference between having 100 separate computers where data transfer is by floppy disk and only one computer is connected to the printer so to print you need access to that computer, and having a computer network where all 100 computers can share information and software and access to printers and scanners and the internet etc.

    Will be very expensive of course, but all the components are having to be developed anyway... now however they are being developed as a set so some items can be combined to simplify or even improve performance.

    For instance a big heavy battery plus big heavy body armour will be a problem. Making the battery a gel battery that fits like a vest under the body armour will make the body armour a bit more comfortable to wear and add a bit of trauma padding while at the same time being a battery. Obviously the armour vest will be heavy and the battery will be heavy, but making the battery a trauma liner for the armour vest will spread the weight and make it easier to carry and at the same time make the armour more comfortable and more effective hopefully while making the battery slightly lighter or longer lasting etc etc.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:32 am

    GarryB wrote:
    He expressed regret that a similar vehicle was not being made in Russia by a domestic producer.

    That is a bit harsh considering Russian domestic producers have just gone through a long period of no domestic orders... I wonder how he would react to the head of a company expressing regret that the Armed Forces is in such bad shape hinting that this would be the fault of those that manage the Armed Forces.

    BullZ Eye!! But he is a general ( can't wait for him to get canned) But about the gear, hope it works!

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:18 am

    The first stuff will likely be bulky as they put in everything they want, but like anything the soldiers will pare away the stuff they really need and "lose" the rest.
    Hopefully over time everything they want becomes lighter and multipurpose gear can reduce the number and bulk of what is included and a more realistic evaluation of what is needed and what is wanted will make it simpler and lighter and more comfortable.
    Lots of testing and feedback and communication between the makers and good research on what everyone else is doing should lead to something good.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:52 am

    The trials are over and the General Staff like it. Wonder how many they want. I think fitting VDV rapid reaction units would be enough until we figure out how to copy it.

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