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    Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

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    Vann7

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    Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:37 pm

    There is a new report

    http://tass.com/politics/959114

    https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/tatarstan-last-autonomous-republic-russia


    It shows that the tatars (most of them muslims) in Russia are demanding more autonomy ,
    and a new wave of nationalism skyrocketing there.  What is shocking in all this..
    is that the President of Tatarstand is comparing Putin with Staling. No

    Imagine that .. Russia will have to decide soon whether renew the autonomy of
    Tatarstan or if will reject it.. so in any case is doomed if you do.. or doomed if you dont.
    The biggest danger is that if Putin give them an extension of autonomy ,all other republics
    will say me too. and could trigger major civil wars in moments that US is already in a
    full scale economic war with Russia.  

    Muslims are the biggest threat to Russia. it always was that way . and it will be always that way. What is interesting is that Tatarstan never was a nation ? never had independence?
    and now their are forces pushing in that direction..   I bet any independence movement there
    have to be fueled by the CIA.. imagine that < the US embassy had 1400 employees in Russia ,
    that were free to travel any place to promote unrest in Russia. Who though that was a good idea? Is political suicide.. and the idea that there is major disrespect between Tatarstand president and Putin , is unbelievable. No so smart Putin?  how many wants to beat
    Russia enemies will do all they can to raise hell in tatarstand against Russia.

    The good news is ,that the republic is landlocked.. So if they go independent ,they will be doomed.. because Russia can lock their economy. and divide them even further and split them.
    in any case this is very dangerous development happening there.

    anyone knows what is really the mood of tatars ,with Russia ? do they  really want to split?
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:21 pm

    (I was expecting a Western propaganda article... And wasn't disappointed. Didn't click at all.)

    Strat- ("Russia's collapse is imminent") -for... Enough said? Rolling Eyes

    I think Tatarstan has benefited from being part from Russia, the region is rich (so grievances should be limited... in reality) and it's indeed landlocked. It's not the 90s anymore... I mean really, if you look at the overall picture, and don't get your info purely from the Western MSM, does it really seem that Russia is somehow getting more unstable, that things are getting worse? Hell no, quite the opposite.

    "What is shocking in all this.. is that the President of Tatarstand is comparing Putin with Staling." Really? I call BS on that aswell. It's certainly taken out of context.

    Of course, we could have a nuanced discussion about Tatarstan's autonomy, etc., which would be totally valid as a topic, without going into the "evil Putler, Russia is going to collapse" BS.

    However, considering what kind of propaganda we all are fed by the the Western media when it comes to topics like these, and of course when it comes to Russia in general actually, it's inevitable going to get people on this forum really defensive, justifiably in this case, IMO.

    And that article is from Strafor of all places... So yeah, it's probably not going to happen.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:08 pm

    Tatarstan is actually only half Tatar, the other half of the population is Russian, in a republic of 3M people, which is landlocked on all sides in Russia.  Let that sink in for a while.

    The head of Tatarstan is looking for more "authority" on his end, because people are rather like that - corrupt to the core when they got power.  And I know there is little support for Tatars from the other Muslim states in Russia (chechnya).  I never once heard the President of Tatarstan call Putin "Stalin" on anything, because it was Putin himself back in 2007 that gave Tatarstan more autonomy for 10 years.  All this is doing is to give the same authority but extending it for another 10 years.  Putin is undecided but chances are they will give it simply because it worked economically.  Chechnya already has the same autonomy as Tatarstan and it has worked out too.

    Stratfor is a useless site and cant be considered a think tank when it is mostly fake news.

    This is the context of the agreement:
    The treaty states, in particular, that Tatarstan, within its powers, carries out international and external economic relations with the territorial and administrative-territorial entities in other countries, takes part in the activities of international organizations’ agencies created especially for these purposes and concludes agreements on international and external economic relations upon agreement with the Russian Foreign Ministry.

    How can you even get a "separatism" concept out of that? They just want an extension of this exact context of what I am quoting. Maybe I am missing something, or maybe Vann likes spreading US propaganda, but this has been going on for 10 years and it seems to have worked.

    BTW, majority (like 90%) of Tatarstan's economy relies on the federal government of Russia's investments.
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    franco

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:15 pm

    Stratfor is a useless site and cant be considered a think tank when it is mostly fake news.

    Actually it's ties to the CIA and others give a good view of what those clowns are thinking. Suspect And it's generally not good. No
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:56 pm

    franco wrote:Stratfor is a useless site and cant be considered a think tank when it is mostly fake news.

    Actually it's ties to the CIA and others give a good view of what those clowns are thinking. Suspect  And it's generally not good. No

    Maybe so, but it is what we call "wishful thinking".  They of course want to have separatism throughout Russia.  But anyone with half a brain knows Tatarstan is the one that wouldn't be the one to separate as it would be disastrous for themselves.  What keeps Tatarstan alive is things like the helicopter industry, etc.  After maiden was a good example to everyone what ends up happening and the Tatars know they would lose half of their population in a short period if they ever decided to separate.

    But you and I both know that wont happen.

    BTW, Stratfor was the one who said imminent collapse of Russia was impending, and that was over a decade ago. They said the same thing that the sanctions would bring them to their knees. So how accurate was those assumptions?
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    franco

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:16 pm

    The Americans have been working towards World domination since WWII ended. A set back and 10 years mean squat. Their vision of breaking Russia up remains as strong as ever. And as we noticed with that article from a Russian living in Russia, they have recruits. That is why they have 1210 employees at their consulate in Moscow. Always searching and recruiting, fostering malcontents and propagating their vision of the world to Russians and ethnic minorities.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:36 pm

    franco wrote:The Americans have been working towards World domination since WWII ended. A set back and 10 years mean squat. Their vision of breaking Russia up remains as strong as ever. And as we noticed with that article from a Russian living in Russia, they have recruits. That is why they have 1210 employees at their consulate in Moscow. Always searching and recruiting, fostering malcontents and propagating their vision of the world to Russians and ethnic minorities.

    Well, their staff has been cut by over 700, so that is fine.

    Which article from a Russian are you talking about?  The one in the army thread from the so called professor?

    Of course there are attempts and always will be.  But that doesn't mean anything as they have tried for far too long.  Nothing has changed.  In the end, Russia has been able to fight back pretty easily.

    If you think that Russia will give up on Tatarstan even though history proven otherwise (Chechnya, twice) then you are fooling yourself Franco.
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    franco

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  franco on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:39 pm

    Not saying the Russians will give up. Saying that the Americans won't.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:41 pm

    franco wrote:Not saying the Russians will give up. Saying that the Americans won't.

    OK, thats fine. But that doesn't change anything, especially the geographical location of Tatarstan and how split its population is ethnically. It becomes nearly impossible. Now you are right, the US wont give up. But lets be real here, the Russians gained territory over time, not lost while the US is losing its grasp all around. See Syria as an example. Chechnya is another example, and that was during the wild wild 90's of Russia where liberal 5th columnists ran the country - and even they went to war with Chechnya to make sure it stays in their fold.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:48 pm

    TATARSTAN

    Area : 68,000 km2 (landlocked)
    Population: 4 million


    Demographics:
    Tatars 53%
    Russians 40%
    Other 7%

    Religions:
    Muslims 32%
    Christians 32%
    Other religions 6%
    Non-religious and atheists 30%

    Notes:
    Not all Tatars are Muslims, some Tatars are Christians
    Economy of Tatarstan is doing well
    Main military production establishments: KAMAZ, Kazan Helicopter Plant and Zelenodolsk Shipyard
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:03 pm

    So what is your take on this then Armenian?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:21 pm

    Unlike Chechnia which is more or less mono-ethnic, Tatarstan is pretty much Russified.

    California and Texas are more likely to secede from the USA than Tatarstan from Russia.
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    kvs

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:33 pm

    Don't forget that Tatarstan is a very wealthy constituent of the Russian Federation. Consider all the defense plants there.
    By contrast, Chechnya and the north Caucuses are very underdeveloped. So there is no huge population of unemployed
    young males in Tatarstan that can be recruited by Wahabbis for the terrorist jihad.

    Vann7

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:34 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:TATARSTAN

    Area  :       68,000 km2 (landlocked)
    Population: 4 million


    Demographics:
    Tatars 53%
    Russians 40%
    Other 7%

    Religions:
    Muslims  32%
    Christians 32%
    Other religions 6%
    Non-religious and atheists 30%

    Notes:
    Not all Tatars are Muslims, some Tatars are Christians
    Economy of Tatarstan is doing well
    Main military production establishments: KAMAZ, Kazan Helicopter Plant and Zelenodolsk Shipyard

    ALright finally some substance here... im now a little more relaxed. LOL
    But if is true that the President of Tatarstan compared Putin with Stalin , this
    should be a dead sentenced for him.. to put that Tatar in the kill list.  

    What make me uneasy about all this , is that there is a record already in Russia
    to have its own chechen like revolution in Tatarstan..  Under Catherine the great times.
    this is the golden times of Russia , when they were fighting the Ottoman Empire in eastern Europe.. a dickhead tatar of the name Pugachev  started a major revolution ,that created
    an army of 30,000 muslim in the center of Russia and they had the intentions to march to Moscow..  So this is a Napoleon/NAzi like threat but with the enemy starting from the inside
    and not from EUrope.  

    In other words.. Russia already have a major history records.. a negative
    experience with Tatars ,that they waited for Russia army to be busy in a major
    war with another nation ,to start a major civil unrest.

    So if Russia start a war with Turkey for example.. Erdogan can use the support he
    have in Kazan to cause serious problems in Russia. and promote major civil unrest withing
    the Tatar community in Russia.

    So this is very serious .. Because of the major dangerous times Russia is living.
    Russia is at risk of a world war 3 with the Americans at any time , if they manage
    to bypass Trump. ok?  So if Russia is at risk of war ,it will need to develop an strategy
    ,of from where to get resources ,transportation lines ,supply lines if a group of muslim rebel.
    and it can't do it efficiently if it doesn't have full control of Kazana and or the full support
    and Loyalty of Kazan President. Something Russia don't have.. because the tatars are asking
    for its autonomy. and got it.. But now is different times..  When Kazan got autonomy in 2007 Russia was at "peace" with America. they were busy in IRAQ war.. now they not.. Now Americans are busy in trying to find ways to collapse Russia and dismember it.

    So this Kazan thing could pose a major threat for Russia if a major war start between US and Russia and Kazan President happens to be in the payroll of the AMericans.. it could sabotage
    Russia from the inside. and even help to guide Americans nuclear attacks. on Russia.
    in any case this is not good. Any Tatar nationalism needs to be eradicated from Russia.
    And Putin investing so much in Sports and Olympics only encourage divisions in Russia. Since Tatars will feel they need representation as Tatars and NOT as Russians.

    What i will do if was in Putin shoes ,will be own Kazan through debt. Get control of Kazan resources ,so if they want one day Independence , Russia can play with the card of debt.
    well if you want this ,you have to pay for t his companies ,for this roads ,for this investment here and there// and will have to pay many Trillions dollars for all that Russia invested in Kazan
    if want independence.   So make no mistake even if Kazan is landlocked.. The Tatar President
    can cause a lot of damage to Russia economy if it works for the Americans. any civil unrest he promotes there with the help of US and NATO , it could stir revolutions for autonomy across all
    Russia.  So this can't be taken Slightly.

    And i posted news of Russian media too.. so is not just American media..

    http://tass.com/politics/959114

    Tass is Russian Media ^^

    Putin needs to reverse tatar nationalism in tatarstan , and take control of the Republic
    in full , autonomy pose a threat for Russia ,because every day , Kazan is autonomous
    it means a day ,the tatars President will be promoting nationalism and separation from Russia.
    If you teach young generations early in school for years ,that Russia is Russia and Tatarstan is not Russia and that they have a right for independence.. this is recipe for disaster for Russia
    future..  and the fact that Russia had 1400 CIA employees in Russia ,certified by Putin ,with diplomatic immunity and now have 455 , is very troubling how could Putin allow such Giant operation to promote 5th column in Russia.

    Ivan the great did the right thing when he opposed tatars , he never left potential enemies behind threatening his vision of Russia. And removed any of their mosques in Kazan ,including
    the one that is major tourism attraction today.

    http://english.kazantravels.ru/wp-content/uploads/Kazan-Travels.jpg

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 pm

    Were is link about head of tatarstan calling Putin Stalin? Do you have  a link regarding it? Do you know the context of it?

    BTW, I know your an idiot. But can you quote in the tass link where they are calling for separatism? Or where he called Putin Stalin?

    Btw, that's the same link you posted earlier.

    Vann7

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:54 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Were is link about head of tatarstan calling Putin Stalin? Do you have  a link regarding it? Do you know the context of it?

    BTW, I know your an idiot. But can you quote in the tass link where they are calling for separatism? Or where he called Putin Stalin?

    Btw, that's the same link you posted earlier.

    i don't know where.. National interest says he did..
    This is why im asking to see .. what is going on there.
    If they are pushing for Autonomy is a form of separation. Because Russia
    will not control Kazan. even if on paper is part of Russia , kazan will use
    its autonomy to promote nationalism and an indentity that is separated from Russia.

    Whenever you promote an identity and nationalism and a different language than Russian
    ,you promote separation. from people that do not belong from that same group.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:56 am

    Word of advise

    Don't trust what some western paper says. National Interest definitely.

    I cannot find a link in Russian so I am assuming he never said it or whatever was said, wasn't in the context we may think they are saying.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:04 am

    Western propaganda always makes me laugh... for instance with pussy riot... they claimed pussy riot were OK and they were right to oppose Putin because Putin was like Stalin.

    And then they demanded that Putin interfere with the Russian judicial system and pardon Pussy riot.

    So they accused him of being Stalin and then demanded he act like Stalin...


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    kvs

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    Re: Is Tatarstan the new Chechenia?

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:Western propaganda always makes me laugh... for instance with pussy riot... they claimed pussy riot were OK and they were right to oppose Putin because Putin was like Stalin.

    And then they demanded that Putin interfere with the Russian judicial system and pardon Pussy riot.

    So they accused him of being Stalin and then demanded he act like Stalin...

    In that farce they also insisted on calling these malcontents a punk band even though none of them could play an
    instrument or even sing. This is like the routine labeling of corrupt accountant Magnitsky as an anti-corruption
    lawyer. NATO propaganda is Orwellian.

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