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    Russian - French military cooperation:

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    Vladimir79
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    France shows her friendship: Rafale

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:15 pm

    Thing of the week: Rafale
    24/08/2009

    The latest French fighter Rafale was the only foreign novelty MAKS-2009, and indeed the only Western combat aircraft, represented as a party demonstration flights in the cabin. True, and consider it to be only in the air, among the exhibits for the public it is not.

    This uniqueness can be regarded as a symbol of a sudden started last year, military-technical rapprochement between Russia and France. Particular interest is aroused in talks to buy Russian amphibious assault ship Mistral, which is essential for the national Navy is extremely doubtful.

    Soon, apparently, will discuss another purchase - French complex Felin. This outfit infantryman of the future, making him look like a robot: it will be equipped with the latest means of communication, navigation and defense. There is talk about joint production of matrices for thermal imagers. Apparently, all these projects will be much more in demand than the Mistral: Land in Russia's armed forces will always be more work than at sea.

    Deepening the Russo-French military ties, in honor of whom had flown Rafale, is undoubtedly connected with the main domestic event MAKS - Air Force Russia an unprecedented order: 64 aircraft, Sukhoi, the contract amount - 80 billion rubles. Military procurement in time of crisis become a key form of support for the aerospace and general high-tech industry, and, last but not least, for the first time for Russia's military industry is the main customer of the army.

    Another hero of the salon was Russo-Ukrainian civilian airliner An-148, which increasingly resembles a commercial product: the number of contracts and pre-contract agreements on the plane has reached fifty units. Once the An-148 was considered the main rival to Russia's civil aviarazrabotki - Sukhoi Superjet, but at this MAKS both new peacefully coexist.

    Alexei Nikolsky

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Ведомости.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:10 pm

    Interesting.

    Question though. During the time when Russia was needing Thermal imagers for the T-90 tanks, didn't a Russian company have a working thermal imager (albeit it was not up to the standards)? Cause if that was the case, why not work more on it?

    Second. Why work further on land based projects? The mistral was a good idea. Feline project? Not so much. Russia is better off just contracting the small tech development company (cant remember the name, they made the smallest voice recorder and video recorder), to create military based equipment like communications and basic imagers for troops (there is no need for high end thermals for basic troops).

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:47 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Interesting.

    Question though. During the time when Russia was needing Thermal imagers for the T-90 tanks, didn't a Russian company have a working thermal imager (albeit it was not up to the standards)? Cause if that was the case, why not work more on it?

    Based on obsolete set of technologies. It would require whole new method costing hundreds of millions just to get it off the ground.

    Second. Why work further on land based projects? The mistral was a good idea. Feline project? Not so much. Russia is better off just contracting the small tech development company (cant remember the name, they made the smallest voice recorder and video recorder), to create military based equipment like communications and basic imagers for troops (there is no need for high end thermals for basic troops).

    High end thermals are necessary to give weapons their maximum range in all weather conditions day and night. I am sure you can see the value of this.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:35 pm

    Yes and No.

    In aspect, it is good to have advanced technologies to your troops. But in the end, is the cost and performance going to justify the purchase for the troops? It makes sense for these types of equipment for lets say: Snipers, Special Forces, Interior troops. But for regular troops? I can see the use of GPS and advanced communication devices for squad leaders.

    I have mixed feelings about these.

    And I guess it is a win win for Russia and France in the development of Thermal technologies: Russia gets state of the art thermal technology and capabilities to develop it without the R&D cost, and France gets money.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:53 pm

    I think you are confused about the size of this camera. They are only going on front line armour elements such as T-90S, BMP-3, and BTR-80. It is mainly for long range target acquisition for ATGMs and provided for command/recon vehicles to have comprehensive look at the battlefield. They are not going to individual soldiers . We make suffucient equipment in that area.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:54 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:I think you are confused about the size of this camera. They are only going on front line armour elements such as T-90S, BMP-3, and BTR-80. It is mainly for long range target acquisition for ATGMs and provided for command/recon vehicles to have comprehensive look at the battlefield. They are not going to individual soldiers . We make suffucient equipment in that area.

    But the Feline system you made mention from the article is a combat system for troops, not armor systems. Which I will say again, why bother with it when Russia has the tech to create their own?

    As for the other equipment. It is good and all, but I still think investments in their own industries (or at least to the bank in order to then lend to small industries) to develop the equipment is better, as it will bring tech advancement and foreign investments into the country.

    Example is UAV's. Everyone was saying Russia was incapable of building decent UAV's and they need to buy from other countries. Then there was the showing the Dozor-600, which is capable of flying and landing like an aircraft, has advanced optics and can use missiles. It is comparable to western UAV's/UCAV's and it was built in Russia.

    Just because the industries don't have the exact know how to build it, does not mean that they are completely incapable of doing it. Just takes some funds and time.

    Key to having a powerful economic nation: Agriculture (being able to feed your people and provide food to other nations for a price), Industry (Being able to create and research nearly everything, also Fabrication facilities to turn raw material into something useful), Infrastructure (in order to meet new demands in development in technology, you will need the equipment. At that, facilities need to be upkept so no failures can happen), Social networks (Good to be able to keep everyone happy with providing for your citizens. Providing entertainment and various other systems to keep moral up, will decrease crime and keep production running).

    Now if you invest in various other countries, it does give you some power and international recognition. But if you do not invest in your own country, then moral will be low, production will be low, and jobs will be more scarce.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    But the Feline system you made mention from the article is a combat system for troops, not armor systems. Which I will say again, why bother with it when Russia has the tech to create their own?

    We will not be buying it. Even the US has forgone most of their future kombat soldier programme.

    As for the other equipment. It is good and all, but I still think investments in their own industries (or at least to the bank in order to then lend to small industries) to develop the equipment is better, as it will bring tech advancement and foreign investments into the country.

    Problem with that is, the state owns all defence enterprises and small industries have nothing to do with it. It is all part of the state machine. For it to bring FDI, they would need to sell off stocks. For it to be competitive on the global arms market, it has to be of such high quality that it would cost billions to overcome the competition which would be unfeasable given our economic situation.

    Example is UAV's. Everyone was saying Russia was incapable of building decent UAV's and they need to buy from other countries. Then there was the showing the Dozor-600, which is capable of flying and landing like an aircraft, has advanced optics and can use missiles. It is comparable to western UAV's/UCAV's and it was built in Russia.

    UAVs are a good example to the contrary. We bought Israeli UAVs so we can incorporate certain technologies we cannot economically develop into Dozor-600.

    Just because the industries don't have the exact know how to build it, does not mean that they are completely incapable of doing it. Just takes some funds and time.

    Two things which we do not have.

    Key to having a powerful economic nation: Agriculture (being able to feed your people and provide food to other nations for a price), Industry (Being able to create and research nearly everything, also Fabrication facilities to turn raw material into something useful), Infrastructure (in order to meet new demands in development in technology, you will need the equipment. At that, facilities need to be upkept so no failures can happen), Social networks (Good to be able to keep everyone happy with providing for your citizens. Providing entertainment and various other systems to keep moral up, will decrease crime and keep production running).

    All that you speak of talks of a closed economy. This is not how the world operates today. Today it is all about comparitive advantage, that which you can make better and/or cheaper than anyone else. This especially applies to the defence sector which sells mostly abroad. The French have sold us production rights to the Catherine thermals, with this we have been able to obtain orders for over a thousand T-90S. Su-30s could not have been sold in many cases without French products installed. Since we have such high orders for it, why should we bother reinventing the wheel when we can buy and produce it for much less with production rights? We now have Catherine thermals and Domacles targetting pods being produced at Ural Optics going on all new tanks and bombers. It is a huge leap in technology and ability for pennies compared to what it would cost to develop it ourselves. Since we have the machines to build it, no one can cut us off. Our security is not threatened.

    As far as basic economics, providing everything in your own country decreases quality of life for your citizens since you do not have comparative advantage in everything. The price of your good would be so expensive, few people could afford them. This is why trade has made the West so wealthy.

    Now if you invest in various other countries, it does give you some power and international recognition. But if you do not invest in your own country, then moral will be low, production will be low, and jobs will be more scarce.

    Of course you want to invest in your own country, but only in what you will have a comparative advantage in, or something that is a national necessity you cannot rely on others to obtain. Food and energy may fall into these catagories if there is some global catastrophe, but not at present. Russia is actually self sufficient in both at subsistence levels.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:51 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Problem with that is, the state owns all defense enterprises and small industries have nothing to do with it. It is all part of the state machine. For it to bring FDI, they would need to sell off stocks. For it to be competitive on the global arms market, it has to be of such high quality that it would cost billions to overcome the competition which would be unfeasible given our economic situation.
    I don't quite understand. Even if the defense industries may have large amounts of stock which is held by the state, and if sold off for private use, then why would anything change? Russia already operates in the high tech industry. The way you make it sound like, is that your country is backwards, which it is not (develops competitive technology like USA, UK, Germany, France, Japan, China, etc). The defense industry being one of the largest. If Russia decided to privatize it, it would open even more possibilities with various other investments from various other countries and alike.

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    All that you speak of talks of a closed economy. This is not how the world operates today. Today it is all about comparitive advantage, that which you can make better and/or cheaper than anyone else. This especially applies to the defence sector which sells mostly abroad. The French have sold us production rights to the Catherine thermals, with this we have been able to obtain orders for over a thousand T-90S. Su-30s could not have been sold in many cases without French products installed. Since we have such high orders for it, why should we bother reinventing the wheel when we can buy and produce it for much less with production rights? We now have Catherine thermals and Domacles targetting pods being produced at Ural Optics going on all new tanks and bombers. It is a huge leap in technology and ability for pennies compared to what it would cost to develop it ourselves. Since we have the machines to build it, no one can cut us off. Our security is not threatened.

    As far as basic economics, providing everything in your own country decreases quality of life for your citizens since you do not have comparative advantage in everything. The price of your good would be so expensive, few people could afford them. This is why trade has made the West so wealthy.

    Not really. After the end of the second world war, USA decided to "lend" a hand in re-development of infrastructure of countries whom where attacked by Germany and are not part of the USSR aftermath. In doing so, Europe and Asia owed a large dept (and still do) to USA, and to which, gave USA such a huge credit rating. And that is what makes one country have a higher GDP then another, credit. If the country has industry and various other systems that makes it worth a lot to loan out, then that country has a higher GDP. It was not necessarily trade that gave USA the advantage, it was the fact that everyone owed USA money, and USA opened American industries around the world. The imports was goods that cost very little, and where still gained through industries which are owned by the USA.

    The advantage that Russia has, it has pretty much every known resource in the world, on her land. There is a huge amount of land that is good for agriculture and since there are around (and somewhat above) 1 billion people who starve in this world, food is a commodity that is much needed. But what would make things even better, is the facilities to create new items that can be sold as specialized items to various countries. Yes, cost of food and other gadgets will go up, but that is why you still purchase food and various other commodities from other countries. You can sell high quality beef, chicken, corn, wheat, etc to other countries, and import for your own people. It is like the relationship between USA and Canada here. We sell oil, Beef, natural resources to USA. They sell us: Beef, Technology, and fabricated oil. See what I am getting at (we (Canada) used to have our own fabrication facilities for our Oil, but most of them where sold off to USA. We only have a couple left, and one of them is in Edmonton Alberta).

    Edit: Anyway, by the sounds of things, Medvedev sure knows what he is doing. He is being honest (best policy in any job) and is telling the truth. Once the truth gets out their, they know the president is angry, and in doing so, will fix the problems. Russia is a country with over 100M people, vast land with tons of natural resources which are needed on a global scale. There is possibly no way Russia can screw up. This economic downturn is an eye opener and proof that what Russia was doing would not last forever, and they know it. So, they are taking other actions and doing other stuff in order to make sure that 1) this does not happen again and (2) That the GDP will be back at a large growth rate.

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    Russia buys 8 sets of FELIN future combat suits

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:55 pm

    General Staff of Russia confirmed the purchase of sets of "soldier of the future" in France
    28/08/2009

    Military departments of Russia buys abroad several sets of uniforms for the military. According to Interfax, on August 26, said Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces, Army General Nikolai Makarov, commenting on previously published in the media information. "We want to buy a minimum quantity, may be eight sets of all, compared with our equipping", - said the general.

    Negotiations between Russia's Defense Ministry and the French company Sagem about buying kits FELIN (Fantassin a Equipements et Liaisons Integres) announced Aug. 25 the newspaper Vedomosti. However, as the same day, said in an interview to "Interfax" the anonymous source in the Defense Ministry of Russia, this information does not correspond to reality.

    At the same time, he reported that the Defense Ministry is studying the experience of other countries in the field of individual soldier equipment. Its development is one of the priorities of the state armament program, and Russia's defense industry has been actively working in this direction. "

    Recall that a similar situation in 2008, and unmanned aerial vehicles of the Israeli production, procurement which first reported in the State Duma Defense Committee, but on the same day, denied this information. Nevertheless, as a result of the deal between Russia and Israel was officially confirmed, although the military reported that the vehicle is purchased not for combat, but to study.

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Lenta.ru



    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:27 am

    Russian police to buy French armored vehicles - business daily
    RIA Novosti

    16/02/201010:14

    MOSCOW, February 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's police force is holding talks with France's Panhard General Defense on the purchase of VBL light armored vehicles, a Russian business daily reported Tuesday.

    Kommersant reported that Russia's Interior Ministry was following the example of the Defense Ministry, which is considering whether to buy a $600-750 million Mistral-class amphibious assault ship from France. Buying arms and military equipment abroad is unusual for Russia, traditionally proud of its own weapons and military equipment.

    While experts say Russia already has domestically-made armored vehicles of the same class, Panhard chief executive Christian Mons said the Russian police are interested in the VBL vehicles' enhanced characteristics, including its maneuverability.

    VBL vehicles cost on average 250,000 euros ($340,000). They are considered outdated by France's armed forces and police and are being replaced with PVP vehicles, Kommersant reported.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100216-rianovosti01.htm


    Last edited by Russian Patriot on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:48 pm

    MVD has denied such talks. We don't need outdated light vehicles when we make better.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:46 pm

    I read something similar on another forums, and yeah, it was denied already.

    What would be the point in having such an old and crappy vehicle when Russia makes various types of armored cars?

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    France SESM offers Russia upgraded Powerpack Transmission T-90/72

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:54 am

    French company proposes a new SESM MTO for tanks T- 72 and T-90

    TSAMTO , June 23. The French company SESM (Societe d'Equipements Systumes and Mecanismes) started to sell customers an improved diesel power pack compartment type pauerpak " for main battle tanks T-72 and T- 90 .

    MTO ESM350 includes in its membership a new cooling system , diesel engine and drivetrain SESM350 with automatic controls to allow movement in one of eight forward gears and three back , and, moreover , equipped with a manual override control , according to " International Defence Review, .

    According to the SESM, « pauerpak " can be installed on tanks T-72/T-90 with minimal modifications and removed as a single structure for an hour in the field . " Pauerpak "can be equipped with diesel engines of several types of power up to 1200 hp Potential customers can install a " pauerpak "on their own repair facilities with the participation of specialists SESM.

    Integrated cooling system ESM350 designed for operation at high temperatures . In standard Russian draft fan associated with the number of engine revolutions. The new cooling system includes two high-speed fan for a fourfold increase in air flow compared to the baseline project. Speed fans automatically optimized . Ventilation can be extinguished by the driver while crossing ford .

    MTO has an integrated diagnostic system that allows rapid detection of gaps. Traditional instruments replaced wheel- column, which not only reduces the load on the driver , but also facilitates maneuvering in difficult terrain .

    Electronic transmission control ensures the selection of the best programs running at any given landscape. Automatic transmission significantly reduces the risk of driver errors when switching gears and damage the box. ESM350 equipped with an effective braking system, including the parking brake .

    MBT with ESM350 can stop and start moving on the slope steepness up to 60%, has more maneuverability and cruising range due to the reduction in fuel consumption . According to the SESM, the maximum speed with T-72/T-90 ESM350 while moving forward up to 70 km / h and 23 km / h - when moving backward. The engine has a maximum speed of motion , even in warm conditions .

    SESM offers an opportunity to use MTO engines from various manufacturers , including the French V8X " Vartsila " and Polish S-1000 , output of 1000 hp

    SESM, which is a subsidiary of German company Renk , already equipped with their ITO -engine S-1000 Polish Tank PT-91M, the version that put Sun Malaysia .

    New " pauerpakom "can be equipped and the Yugoslav version of the T-72M1 - M- 84. MTO ESM350 also intended to equip specialized versions of T- 72 and T- 90, including armored engineer vehicles , BREM and armored vehicle launched bridges . This will allow potential customers to unify the park available propulsion vehicle .

    In addition , SESM developed automatic transmission ESM500 with five front and two rear gears , which is equipped with a French MBT Leclerc . ESM500 offered for sale as part of the MTO , intended for installation on MBT weighing more than 50 tons, which are equipped with engines up 1500 hp One of the potential projects, where it can be applied , is a Pakistani Tank Al - Khalid .

    REFERENCE:

    Currently, MBT T-90 equipped with a standard 4 - stroke 12- cylinder V- 84MS power 840 hp , as well as transmission with manual shift . Export version of T - 90S can be equipped with a diesel engine capacity of 1000 hp B92S2 and 8 -speed transmission with manual shift (7 forward and one reverse gear ) .

    http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/mainnews/2010/0623/13204963/detail.shtml



    pdf documentation ESM-350

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/customer/sesm/pdf/Powerpack_ESM350.pdf

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:15 am

    Have read that one of the goals of the Burlak upgrade is to add a steering wheel control system to replace the old sticks method used.
    The old sticks method as used on old tractor (with tracks) designs is probably why that chap compared the T-90 to the T-34.
    The BMP-1 was one of the first armoured vehicles to have a steering yoke (like the handle bars on a motorbike).

    For the Burlak program there was also talk of a new engine rated at 1,200hp called V-99 as opposed to the 1,000hp V-92 currently on offer.

    Personally I think it doesn't make sense to look abroad till we know what the Burlak upgrade has to offer... its design is not to be finalised till the end of this year AFAIK.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:14 am

    Lets look at the facts for a moment. You have never heard Popovkin or the top brass mention the word "Burlak." I was digging around the journal database for it and it popped up as an upgrade for T-80U back in 2003. Now we are disbanding the T-80 so what purpose will that serve? Now the facts of Russian armour upgrades are pointing in one direction... France and Germany. We already bought thermals, radios, and now are interested in French powerpacks and transmissions. We are in discussions with Germany over armour technology. Russian producers aren't even on the radar screen. Popovkin made that clear and now he is promoted to deputy DefMin.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:38 am

    From what I have read the Burlak program started out as a program to unify the components of the three main in service Russian MBTs, the T-72, the T-90, and the T-80s so that the engines and transmissions and other components including turrets etc would be the same to reduce the costs of ownership and simplify maintainence.
    What it has become however seems to be a total upgrade of all the problems perceived with the T series tank fleet, ie new thermal sights (from France) one for the gunner and one for the commander, new communications and battle management systems, new navigation based on satellites, revision of ERA and armour to make it more effective, rearrangement of the turret to hold the extra equipment, additional autoloader so that no ammo is carried loose in the crew compartment at all.
    The new standard will become the production standard T-90 for the Russian Army and also an upgrade standard for the existing T-90s and any other vehicles that will be kept.

    All this talk of foreign kit has nothing to do with Russia importing stuff, and everything to do with Russian makers making foreign designs of learning foreign techniques under licence for local production.

    The armour technology Russia is looking at buying from Germany is armour for light vehicles that is made of light metals. The problem is not heavy tank armour, it is armour for light vehicles only, and it is most likely to result in a Russian company buying a licence to make this new German armour in Russia rather than Germany making Russian light vehicles in the future.

    Here is an article from a BLOG:
    Т-90М. New Specs.

    The new pictures and main specs of T-90M (ob.188M) were appeared on a Russian site. This tank was first time demonstrated for Putin in Dec.10 at N-Tagil. It has got:

    - New bigger turret without weakened frontal areas and with the all-aspect ERA covering.
    - ERA 'Relict'
    - Additional roof protection against atop attacking munition.
    - New additional autoloader, placed on the aft part of the turret and able using the new longer sub-caliber rods.
    - Aft ammo storage.
    - Panoramic 3-channel IR commander site with improved anti-split/rounds protection.
    - 7.62 mm automatic turret instead of 12.7mm.
    - Totally new 2A82 125 mm MG (2A46M5 - optional).
    - FCS with the net-centric module.
    - New radio.
    - New navigation system.
    - New anti-split kevlar layer instead of the standard Russian anti-neutron layer.
    - new anti-fire system.


    In work:

    - Mono-block power unit on 1200 hp V-99 engine.
    - Steering wheel control.

    T-90M - is intended for the export purpose mainly. For domestic use there was confirmed 'Burlak' program with heavy Tomsk OKBTM's input.

    Note the last line above.
    Also before you say this is just a BLOG, so is this.

    On this page:

    http://igorrgroup blogspot.com/2010/01/new-tank-conditioner.html

    (to make it work replace the . between igorrgroup and blogspot)
    Which talks about a new compact Russian air conditioner for tanks.
    Below that article shows a new turret design mockup for the Burlak.

    Claims the Burlak program continue are supported by an interview with the guy in charge of the company that makes the T-90 and is developing the T-95. From memory he said that program will be completed by the end of this year hopefully.

    I am reading the babelfish translation of this page:

    http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/xlopotov_8/t90m.htm

    but it seems to mention stuff I have mentioned too. It adds the external sights are redesigned to give better view and also reduce vulnerability to enemy fire. It mentions that while they lack money for the program that the simulators for the upgrade are being bought by the Russian Army.
    It mentions new fire suppression systems and kevlar liners to reduce spalling of armour.
    It mentions new ERA, repositioned armour to improve coverage and reduce weak spots, new engine with steering wheel control.

    When the overall plans are this:

    Tank design and performance, in addition to crew training, are becoming increasingly important at a time when Moscow has decided to reduce Russia's tank force from over 20,000 operational and reserve vehicles to 2,000 operational and 5,000-6,000 in reserve.

    Of which:

    The T-90 has undergone continuous upgrades since it was first developed in the early 1990s on the basis of the latest modifications to the T-72/T-72B. It is the only mass-produced main battle tank in Russia.

    Under the current state rearmament program, the Russian army is expected to receive about 1,500 tanks of this model. At present, the Russian Armed Forces have 500 T-90 tanks and receive 60 to 100 new tanks of this model each year.

    So it seems their plans are probably to have 5 to 6 thousand tanks, of which 1,500 would be T-90s, which suggests perhaps a lot of T-72s will be upgraded:

    In addition to the production of T-90 tanks, T-72 tanks continue to be modernized for the Russian Armed Forces. The T-72BA is currently the main modified version. Modernization programs streamline the fire-control system, enhance hull-bottom mine resistance by installing an additional armor plate near the driver's seat, standardize the platform and engine with the T-90 tank and improve the tank's armor.

    An upgraded T-72 tank has considerably greater potential and meets modern tank requirements, while at the same time being far cheaper to produce than a new T-90 tank.

    So lets say 6 thousand tanks of which 1 thousand 500 will be T-90s and the other 4 thousand 500 or so will be cheaper upgraded T-72BAs.
    With two thermal imagers in the T-90s they will be the expensive tanks so spending money on a Burlak upgrade makes sense for only 1,500 of your fleet.
    The upgraded T-72s can use cheaper Russian thermal sights so they are day and night capable, but over time as production continues of the French thermal sights they can be added (where it is worth it of course... the Russian sights might get upgraded to the point where replacement with french designed sights is not necessary) during routine overhauls.
    The point is that you want standardisation.
    You want your T-72BA units to be able to communicate with your T-90 units with the same comms gear and the same sort of electronics.
    The real expensive stuff like French thermals can go in the T-90 and cheaper Russian thermals in the T-72BA, but at the end of the day if you can create an upgrade that makes the T-90 more similar to the T-72BA then it makes a lot of sense.
    The whole purpose of withdrawing the T-64s and T-80s is because they are less like the T-90s than the T-72BAs.
    A unified upgrade you apply to your entire fleet as you can afford it makes a lot of sense.
    A bit like with aircraft for the 50 new aircraft you buy you can also upgrade 200 of the airframes in best condition to a better standard. If you want to go all new, then you can have 80 new aircraft and no upgraded aircraft for the same price.

    Unless you have bottomless pockets with lots of money to spend then upgrades are a good way of keeping numbers at minimal cost while still improving the performance of the fleet.

    It seems the problem is the Strategic Rocket forces, the Airforce and the Air Defence Forces are getting the lions share of the budget for the next decade and the Navy and the Army will have to make do with upgrades.

    (from here: http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20100603/159294042.html )

    This is understandable you can't replace everything all at once, and have to set priorities.
    Delaying the T-95 (ie I am referring here to the tank that eventually replaces the T-90 in Russian Army service as the standard Russian MBT, not the particular model currently developed) will only result in the final product being better.
    Hopefully its cost will reduce as the various technologies mature and with domestic production of high technology hopefully the Russian content of the design can be increased to the point where it is more Russian.

    I would think if only 1,500 T-90s are to be produced for the Russian Army and 1/3rd are already in service that an upgrade to unify them to make them more compatible with each other and the other vehicles in the Russian fleet would make a lot of sense.
    Money set aside for tooling up and production of the T-95 can be spent on upgrading all the T-90s to Burlak standard and some aspects can also be retrofitted to existing T-72BA vehicles to improve their performance, ie the same ERA and engines and guns and transmissions and anti spall armour etc etc.

    When was the last time the tanks of the Russian army were one calibre?

    125mm can be standardised for all Russian tanks and all the stocks of the 100mm smoothbore, and 115mm smoothbore can be sold or destroyed.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:48 am

    Blog, doesn't have any substance to it. T-90M, which is not Burlak, was already viewed by Putin and he was not impressed. So much so he only spent 30 seconds in front of the display and near fell asleep during the demonstration. Now several deals have been signed with France and Germany for armour components and Popovkin replaced the General who was bitching about buying foreign. They will keep the turret and ERA, but everything else is being reviewed for imports from France and Germany.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:45 pm

    I realise the M and the Burlak is not the same thing.
    I also realise that they will not be going with a 120mm main gun so parts of Burlak will be kept anyway.
    If there are components from Germany or France that could make Burlak better then I welcome that.
    The point is that Burlak addresses most of the fundamental issues with the T-90 in a way that can be retrofitted to already built tanks to achieve the standardisation they want without the enormous cost of buying an all new tank.
    Whether Putin is impressed or not is not really the issue.
    He was KGB, not a tank man. He might not understand the difference removing the ammo from the crew compartment makes or the effect a battle management system has. Even a poor management system is better than no management system at all.
    There isn't enough money to buy 6,000 Leclercs, and even if there was it makes no sense to throw out your entire Tank MIC including the ammunition component of the MIC.
    The Mistral was bought because it is state of the art in its class, and it is ready for production now and there is a clear need for a vessel that can deliver a force quickly, it fits with the mobile forces doctrine Russia is adopting.
    There are already 20,000 Russian tanks in service or storage right now, apart from a few more T-90s there is certainly no reason to build any more new tanks at a time when the role of the tank is being reduced.
    I have said before, but I will say it again the Russian Armed forces will not look like NATO next year, or the year after or in 2015. It is going to take at least 10 years of sensible spending to get the new gear into production and into service in numbers where it is signficant. The Russian AF never had enough precision guided weapons, yet precision guided weapons have been available for decades and exported to client states.
    India and China probably have more R-77s than the Russian AF simply because the Russian AF only have a few upgraded aircraft in service that can actually use them.
    Complaining that the R-77 hasn't been as updated as much as the AMRAAM is silly, the Russian AF hasn't had it in service that long so there was little pressure and even less money for upgrades and improvements.
    First seen in 1988 on the Mig-29M prototype the R-77 made today has fully digital electronics and is much more capable than the same missile would have been from 1995 or so when it probably would have entered service had there been money for it.
    The solution isn't to run to the US to buy AMRAAMs instead to punnish the Russian company for not keeping up with the state of the art with no money and no orders. Why haven't they got mass production facilities ready now? Because they haven't had any orders till now.
    The Russian Armed forces is now demanding new stuff be made... is it paying for it up front or is it doing what it used to do and offer about 10-20% of the order payment in real money and the rest in soft loans with banks so production tooling, worker training, raw materials, parts suppliers etc can all be paid and production can begin. Anyone who has worked with subcontractors before knows they rarely do anything without payment first... it is the only way to make sure you do get paid these days.

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    Russia wants French Sigma 30 Artillery FCS

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:43 pm

    Russia to hold talks with France on purchasing artillery navigation system

    09:47 30/06/2010
    © RIA Novosti. Vladimir Viatkin



    The Russian Defense Ministry will hold talks during an international engineering forum near Moscow with France's Sagem Defense Securite on the possible purchase of a Sigma 30 inertial navigation system.

    The Engineering Technologies International Forum 2010 will be held from June 30 through July 4 in the town of Zhukovsky, 40 kilometers southeast of Moscow.

    Earlier this month, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin invited the French-based Sagem company (SAFRAN group), a European leader in defense and consumer electronics, for talks in Moscow.

    Popovkin said Russia is interested in purchasing the Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system as part of efforts to modernize its Smerch and Grad multiple rocket launchers.

    "We are ready to offer Russia the Sigma 30 system for the modernization of the Russian artillery and multiple rocket launchers," a Sagem spokesman told RIA Novosti.

    He said Sagem delivers Sigma systems to a wide range of Russian military manufacturers, including Sukhoi.

    "There is a demand for the latest navigation and pointing systems because the firing range of the modernized multiple rocket launchers like the Grad has risen from 40 to 50-60 kilometers and fire control systems therefore also need to be modernized," the spokesman said.

    The Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system is designed for high-precision firing at short notice.

    PARIS/MOSCOW, June 30 (RIA Novosti)

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100630/159632584.html

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:53 pm

    Whether Putin is impressed or not is not really the issue.

    Don't forget who runs this country... it is Putin. If he isn't impressed, the company is doomed.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:22 am

    50-60km for Grad is really impressive.

    I heard talk of Smerch being extended in range to 120-150km too.

    Having French designed communications and navigation equipment in your tanks, it certainly makes sense to use their artillery fire control systems too if they are for sale.
    If they offer an improvement in performance that can't be matched by existing Russian systems then I don't see a problem.

    Of course existing FCS for artillery will be Soviet systems currently so I really don't know whether this is a French designed system replacing a Russian system or whether it might be that Soviet artillery FCS were developed in Belarus or the Ukraine in which case buying something foreign to Russia anyway, you might as well go with the better French option to be made in Russia than a Ukrainian system made in Russia.


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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:36 am

    I think you are reading too much in his entertainment.
    Lets agree that Putin is no fool.
    The fact that he found a demonstration of a vehicle that looks to the amateur to be 99% like a standard T-90 but with a new sight, a slightly enlarged turret, different ERA boxes on the outside, etc etc a little boring is no great surprise.
    The fact is that an upgrade that unifies the tanks Russia will keep in service makes a huge amount of sense.
    This tank he was looking at wasn't for Russian Armed forces use, it was the T-90M for export, which might also reflect his disinterest.
    The T-90 is not a bad tank, it has a few issues and problems and the Burlak upgrade correct pretty much all of those problems.
    As a new production standard and upgrade standard for existing T-90s it is the most cost effective option.
    The Russian Armed forces are trying to go netcentric, but that isn't going to be worth anything if most of your armoured vehicles are not plugged in.
    This is the cheapest and fastest way to implement a battle management system.

    I would also like to thank you for not getting annoyed at me... I have been told I can be stubborn.
    I would like to see Russia with a strong and capable military.
    I would like to see all those old T-54s, T-55s, T-62s, T-64s, and T-80s and old model T-72s gotten rid of as tank targets or sold on the export market to countries that already operate such types, and their older ammo removed from stocks.
    For Russian companies that means a clear separation between 125mm ammo for Russia and 100mm smoothbore and 115mm smoothbore for export.
    Spares compatibility, and of course training can be standarised to reduce costs.
    In 2016 the T-95 program can be reactivated based on new doctrine and expectations and it might fundamentally change to the point where a completely new design is needed, perhaps even unmanned.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:46 am

    T-90M wasn't just for export just as the T-90S wasn't just for export. It is the upgrade for the T-90. There is no motion forward on Burlak so we can just drop that subject. What MoD is looking for is a comprehensive upgrade of the T-90 that brings it to the latest standards and does it quickly. MIC has nothing in electronics to bridge this gap which is why we are spending so much time talking to the French.

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:17 am

    One more confirmation article :

    Russia to hold talks with France on purchasing artillery navigation system

    RIA Novosti

    09:47 30/06/2010

    PARIS/MOSCOW, June 30 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry will hold talks during an international engineering forum near Moscow with France's Sagem Defense Securite on the possible purchase of a Sigma 30 inertial navigation system.

    The Engineering Technologies International Forum 2010 will be held from June 30 through July 4 in the town of Zhukovsky, 40 kilometers southeast of Moscow.

    Earlier this month, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin invited the French-based Sagem company (SAFRAN group), a European leader in defense and consumer electronics, for talks in Moscow.

    Popovkin said Russia is interested in purchasing the Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system as part of efforts to modernize its Smerch and Grad multiple rocket launchers.

    "We are ready to offer Russia the Sigma 30 system for the modernization of the Russian artillery and multiple rocket launchers," a Sagem spokesman told RIA Novosti.

    He said Sagem delivers Sigma systems to a wide range of Russian military manufacturers, including Sukhoi.

    "There is a demand for the latest navigation and pointing systems because the firing range of the modernized multiple rocket launchers like the Grad has risen from 40 to 50-60 kilometers and fire control systems therefore also need to be modernized," the spokesman said.

    The Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system is designed for high-precision firing at short notice.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100630-rianovosti05.htm

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    Re: Russian - French military cooperation:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:04 am

    The Russian Army is supposed to have bought the tank simulators for the Burlak (Barge Hauler) program, that is the basis for the speculation that it is still "live".
    If the purpose of Burlak was to improve the performance of the tanks in Russian Service and there was no money then I could understand not spending it for now and then looking at the problem in 5-10 years.
    The Burlak upgrade however should actually simplify logistics and training as well as remove lots of old stuff from the Armoury, which is something politicians have been harping on about for some time.
    From other "deals" like those with Thales of France, it is clear that if they decide to go with French and German designs they will certainly put them in the design, but they wont just buy them all from France and Germany, they might buy 500-1000 units of whatever they want, like engines and transmissions, and thermal sights, and radios, and land battle management system, but that will only be the first 500-1000... the rest will be built under licence in Russia for the remaining 5-6 thousand tanks.

    If the French or German component is markedly superior to the Russian equivelent in the Burlak upgrade then replace the Russian component with the French or German component and have the maker of the Russian component the licence producer of that French or German component. The Russian producer will get a factory upgrade and be trained to make the new component the French or German way.

    This is all normal and fine.

    Look at WWII, the most numerous Soviet fighter was the I-16 Polikarpov with a licence produced M-22 and M-25 engines based on the old Bristol Jupiter engine. The Mikulin M-17 engine was a licence produced BMW engine that was used in bombers like the Tupolev TB-3 as well as tanks like the BT-7 and the T-28.
    There are aircraft still used today like the An-2 that use licence produced engines, the ASh-62 based on the Wright Cyclone.
    The point is that at the time they wanted a good engine and they paid a fair price for it and they got a deal to make these engines in Russia. They then took the new technology and started modifying it to suite their needs and their available materials etc, and also improving the design, sometimes sticking to a design that works (the engine on the An-2 is simple and easy to fix... you could replace it with a modern engine to get better range or speed, but the simplicity is more valuable than the fuel you would save in the middle of Siberia on a rough strip.).

    The issue seems to be pride and if you want your armed forces properly equipped then you can't afford pride.

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