Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Share
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5672
    Points : 6321
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Viktor on Sat May 06, 2017 6:50 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Αrmata is a monster!
    Great photo. Certainly a larger target than the T-72.

    They made a "larger target" once they where able to protect it in form of APS which covers everything Very Happy
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3038
    Points : 3163
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  kvs on Sat May 06, 2017 2:30 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Αrmata is a monster!
    Great photo. Certainly a larger target than the T-72.

    No. Modern targeting on NATO tanks is precise enough to hit both with the same rate of success. So it is
    pointless to make the tank smaller since there is zero survival return but in fact a loss of functionality.

    The acceleration of the T-14 is a more important aspect than its increased size.
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 502
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 06, 2017 2:49 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Αrmata is a monster!
    Great photo. Certainly a larger target than the T-72.
    larger frontal armour and larger engine= gives you greater tank length.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 776
    Points : 778
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Isos on Sat May 06, 2017 2:53 pm

    George1 wrote:Αrmata is a monster!

    For its size the T-90 is more impressive I think. It offers same protection as big tanks for a size almost half lower.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5064
    Points : 5172
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 am


    Thermal and IR image of T-14 in motion and warmed up:





    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3038
    Points : 3163
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  kvs on Fri May 12, 2017 1:06 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Thermal and IR image of T-14 in motion and warmed up:






    Great post! Now we see one of the advantages of the unmanned turret. It is basically at background temperature. So the real world
    height of the T-14 is lower than it appears since IR detection systems will not be able to effectively resolve the turret.
    avatar
    0nillie0

    Posts : 64
    Points : 66
    Join date : 2016-05-15
    Age : 30
    Location : Flanders, Belgium

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  0nillie0 on Fri May 12, 2017 12:22 pm

    kvs wrote:

    Great post!  Now we see one of the advantages of the unmanned turret.   It is basically at background temperature.   So the real world
    height of the T-14 is lower than it appears since IR detection systems will not be able to effectively resolve the turret.  

    Well to be completely fair, in a combat situation the turret should heat up once the stabilizers and electric drives are performing, and even more so when the main gun is firing. The same goes for the barrel of the machine gun inside the RWS, and possibly the electro-optical sensors.
    Still, its a highly interesting perspective.

    Is there any detailed info available about the APU used by the T-14, and where it is located inside the vehicle?

    Vann7

    Posts : 3453
    Points : 3571
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Vann7 on Fri May 12, 2017 9:50 pm

    kvs wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Thermal and IR image of T-14 in motion and warmed up:






    Great post!  Now we see one of the advantages of the unmanned turret.   It is basically at background temperature.   So the real world
    height of the T-14 is lower than it appears since IR detection systems will not be able to effectively resolve the turret.  

    Not to mention that if the above image of Armata is correct ,and maintained in a battle field.
    It means Armata have an extremely low heat signature on its armor and turret and that the latest anti tank missiles of US and ISrael ,like Javelin or Spike missiles ,which depends a lot
    on infrared homing will have a difficult time finding the location of the tank ,since its tracks
    that is the only thing that shows heat ,will be covered by the tank body from a top -down looking position. Smile   And from a side position ,the tracks will very likely be hidden by the terrain if they running in uneven soft terrain as the majority of battlefields will be.

    They also should be invisible to Apache helicopters hellfire missiles too. Since it was said the tank will be stealthy to radio emissions too. This means that Russia passive defenses alone
    in combination with the smoke screen ,defenses they use , should be significantly more effective than in previous generation of tanks . and the Armata tank could pose a real challenge to be hit ,by guided modern anti tank missiles. and only rocket unguided grenades
    will not be affected by that ,but their penetrating power is very weak already anyway for a modern tank. I remember in one time years ago ,were Putin himself told in an interview that in the future tanks will be next to impossible to penetrate by anti tank missiles or rocket grenades. and is very likely he was speaking from experience of what the Russia military was developing in armata new tanks.

    In russian winters however ,for sure any tank will be stealthy from infra red guidance. . lol1
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16339
    Points : 16970
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 14, 2017 10:12 am

    In russian winters however ,for sure any tank will be stealthy from infra red guidance. .

    No.

    Actually hot weather is more of an issue.

    In a normal thermal image a human being stands out as white hot on a dark background.

    When the outside temperature is 38 degrees or hotter than the back ground temperature is the same as a human body so it all looks white and it is hard to find human targets.

    Hot ground also makes hot tanks harder to see.

    Of course the application of materials like Nadezhda will change the surface temperature of the vehicle to close to ambient temperatures so they wont stand out.

    IR guided systems like Javelin would need to be used in manual guidance mode... making it a very expensive underpowered Metis...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    a-andreich

    Posts : 5
    Points : 5
    Join date : 2015-05-25

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  a-andreich on Thu May 25, 2017 11:54 am


    T-72B3 mod. 2016 and T-90A, top view.
    avatar
    Sochi_Olympic_Park

    Posts : 11
    Points : 15
    Join date : 2017-05-24
    Age : 31
    Location : Sochi (Adler) - Russian Federation

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Sochi_Olympic_Park on Thu May 25, 2017 1:57 pm

    Tanks will always be the important part of military doctrine of every army. I don`t belive the claims that tanks are obsolete in 21. century warfare. Soviet Union has allways been the pioneer of tank development. Russia today must keep pushing the envelope and developing new tank technologies. Russia must climbed back to the top of tank Olymp.

    What about tank industry in Ukraine ? I have heard that their Oplot tank is utter and complete disaster. Even Thailand canceled the contract to buy Oplot tanks from Ukraine. What is the state of tank industry in Harkov (Ukraine) today ? I heard that KMDB Morozov is in state of total bankruptcy and has been take under control by ukrainian oligarchs and mafia clans in Kiev junta.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 714
    Points : 734
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 25, 2017 2:38 pm

    Sochi_Olympic_Park wrote:Tanks will always be the important part of military doctrine of every army. I don`t belive the claims that tanks are obsolete in 21. century warfare. Soviet Union has allways been the pioneer of tank development. Russia today must keep pushing the envelope and developing new tank technologies. Russia must climbed back to the top of tank Olymp.

    What about tank industry in Ukraine ? I have heard that their Oplot tank is utter and complete disaster. Even Thailand canceled the contract to buy Oplot tanks from Ukraine. What is the state of tank industry in Harkov (Ukraine) today ? I heard that KMDB Morozov is in state of total bankruptcy and has been take under control by ukrainian oligarchs and mafia clans in Kiev junta.

    Ukropistani inbred orcs have not only killed the goose that laid the golden eggs, they got the bones stuck in their throat, and fought over the scraps and feathers. Oplot is a joke, a 3rd-world hunk of garbage, and the once mighty Malyshev plant is a pathetic shadow of its once-glorious past.

    Q - How do you get a Ukropi involved in small business?
    A - Give him a big business, and let him take it from there...
    avatar
    Sochi_Olympic_Park

    Posts : 11
    Points : 15
    Join date : 2017-05-24
    Age : 31
    Location : Sochi (Adler) - Russian Federation

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Sochi_Olympic_Park on Thu May 25, 2017 2:58 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Sochi_Olympic_Park wrote:Tanks will always be the important part of military doctrine of every army. I don`t belive the claims that tanks are obsolete in 21. century warfare. Soviet Union has allways been the pioneer of tank development. Russia today must keep pushing the envelope and developing new tank technologies. Russia must climbed back to the top of tank Olymp.

    What about tank industry in Ukraine ? I have heard that their Oplot tank is utter and complete disaster. Even Thailand canceled the contract to buy Oplot tanks from Ukraine. What is the state of tank industry in Harkov (Ukraine) today ? I heard that KMDB Morozov is in state of total bankruptcy and has been take under control by ukrainian oligarchs and mafia clans in Kiev junta.

    Ukropistani inbred orcs have not only killed the goose that laid the golden eggs, they got the bones stuck in their throat, and fought over the scraps and feathers.  Oplot is a joke, a 3rd-world hunk of garbage, and the once mighty Malyshev plant is a pathetic shadow of its once-glorious past.

    Q - How do you get a Ukropi involved in small business?
    A - Give him a big business, and let him take it from there...

    The most advanced technology on ukrainian Oplot tank is T-80 chassis, gun and tank systems, hull, autoloader and mechanisms developed and produced in Soviet Union (Leningrad Kirov Plant) by russian constructor Nikolai Popov. Everything else (ukrainian diesel engines, electronics, optics, ammunition, protection systems, armor...etc) is complete junk and crap.
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 432
    Points : 498
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  jhelb on Wed May 31, 2017 7:39 am

    U.S made Javelin ATGM ineffective against Armata's APS

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40083641
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5064
    Points : 5172
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:38 pm


    Russian troops to start Armata tank operational evaluation in 2019

    http://tass.com/defense/952377
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5064
    Points : 5172
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:08 pm

    avatar
    Benya

    Posts : 495
    Points : 499
    Join date : 2016-06-05
    Location : Budapest, Hungary

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Benya on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:14 pm

    Russia is developing a new arctic infantry fighting vehicle based on the T-15 chassis

    The Arctic Rytsar (Knight) has been added to the list of advanced infantry fighting vehicles consisting now of the T-15 based on the Armata platform, B-11 based on the Kurganets-25 combat vehicle, and the wheeled Boomerang. This is a new product from the Kurgan Machine-Building Plant (Kurganmashzavod). Expert Sergei Cherkasov writes about this in newspaper Military Industrial Courier.


    The new IFV will be based on the T-15 chassis

    Undoubtedly, a vehicle customized to local conditions is needed for the Arctic. Combat units must be as autonomous as possible and adapted to climatic conditions. The equipment must not only be operable at all times, but also provide comfortable conditions for people who serve at the edge of the earth. The priority in the Arctic military equipment is given to the engine and running gear. Armament is configured into weapon stations, and the choice can be any, depending on the needs. But in the Arctic, powerful weapons are unlikely to find a worthy target.

    GTEs are capable of operating on any fuel that can be pulverized or emulsified, even on coal, not to mention diesel fuel, natural gas or fuel oil. With long supply lines, the opportunity to fill the IFV from a barrel at a polar weather station is worth much. In the early 2010s, a special IFV intended for use for use in high latitudes was already under development. The project called Arctic was developed by Uralvagonzavod, which used the insights on the two-unit all-terrain vehicles Vityaz. Now, judging from media reports, the Tractor Plants Concern, which includes both Kurganmashzavod and KOBM, has found funds to carry out research and design studies. These efforts should result in an armored all-terrain vehicle available in both two-unit and one-unit versions.

    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_2017_global_defense_security_news_industry/russia_developing_new_arctic_ifv_on_t-15_chassis_81506173.html

    Vann7

    Posts : 3453
    Points : 3571
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:34 am



    Interesting info of many of the technology that never made it into the black eagle tank..
    but that helped in the development of Armata.


    https://aw.my.com/us/news/general/development-object-195




    HM1199

    Posts : 50
    Points : 52
    Join date : 2016-07-03

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  HM1199 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:47 pm

    quite a general question , i'd like to know if you guys share my opinion.
    i've seen many claims pointing out that the T14's sensor equipment and weapons are "exposed", as well as the turret being lightly armored , and anything can take them out.
    i strongly disagree , imo , all other tanks have exposed "fragile" equipment such as gunner sights , CITV's and laser warning receivers for some tanks , so this is a common thing for all modern tanks , the only difference is that the T14 's turret is crewless , so no armor needed , unlike other tanks.
    what do you think?
    avatar
    0nillie0

    Posts : 64
    Points : 66
    Join date : 2016-05-15
    Age : 30
    Location : Flanders, Belgium

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  0nillie0 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:36 pm

    HM1199 wrote:quite a general question , i'd like to know if you guys share my opinion.
    i've seen many claims pointing out that the T14's sensor equipment and weapons are "exposed", as well as the turret being lightly armored , and anything can take them out.
    i strongly disagree , imo , all other tanks have exposed "fragile" equipment such as gunner sights , CITV's and laser warning receivers for some tanks , so this is a common thing for all modern tanks , the only difference is that the T14 's turret is crewless , so no armor needed , unlike other tanks.
    what do you think?

    The argument of overexposed sensors exists only in a situation where a threat would attempt to engage said sensors. This threat could be for example a sniper with an anti-material rifle, an infantry fighting vehicle with a medium caliber auto cannon, an artillery barrage or possibly even a UAV.

    Most of these threats would all be taking a very big risk for even attempting to target these sensors, or even the tank in general. The chance of exposing itself to return fire by either the target tank, or tanks/IFV's/infantry operating with the tank is high. Such return fire would have a fairly high chance of being very effective, as the would be assailants would all be well within the lethal range of the main gun.
    The biggest threats remain long range ATGM's, which would cause more critical damage in general, and damages through artillery shrapnel or indirect fire. Not much can be done about this. As u said, any tank is vulnerable to this.

    Important sensors could be carried as spares which are made replaceable by the vehicle crew in field conditions. Thats about it really.  

    With advances in battlefield networking technology, a platoon of T-14's would likely not even require to have its own eyes. It could simply obtain detailed targeting information from other sources.
    Other sensors such as laser warning receivers, radar and meteorological mast are non-essential in most battlefield scenarios. The tank can perform its mission even with these systems damaged.
    At any rate, the current turret design can be altered fairly easily. It is be no means a design set in stone. We could still see any number of modifications emerge. Extensive field trials are bound to reveal weaknesses or problems with durability.

    T-47

    Posts : 101
    Points : 105
    Join date : 2017-07-17
    Location : Planet Earth

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  T-47 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:07 pm

    Also I think there will be urban warfare kit for T-14. Syrian mods of T-72 tanks are fairly effective so far.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16339
    Points : 16970
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:12 am

    If the enemy is talking about blinding your tanks instead of blowing them into tiny pieces and killing all the crew you know your tanks are well protected.

    Armata vehicles will be nodes in a network that includes ground, air, sea, and space based nodes all feeding target and threat information into a data management system... while the enemy tanks are trying to use machine gun fire to shoot out the optics and sensors if an Armata tank so that their missiles and rounds can penetrate their defences, the armata will be passing precise locations and information about those enemy tanks up the chain to HQ which means pretty soon the air is going to be humming with the sound of Mi-28NMs and Ka-52s and Hermes, Vikhr, and Krisantema... not to mention that the tethered UAV flying 30m above the Armata with thermal and radar sensors has probably already been used so the enemy tanks were likely detected well before they detected the Armatas, which means those armatas had likely already fired at those enemy tanks before they had a ground based line of sight with fire and forget tank launched anti armour missiles at those tanks anyway so they were probably destroyed before they even saw the Armata tank in the first place.

    All they might have seen were a few UAVs hovering above a group of trees... there might have been a dozen Armata vehicles in there or it might have been one Tigr recon vehicle with the tethered UAV... either way the sensor data would have been used by someone somewhere nearby to deal with the threat.

    Haters going to hate.

    They would likely go for over kill most likely, like they did in desert storm where 250kg guided bombs were used to take out dug in armour in the desert.

    Armata will not be some invincible system but it will take time for them to upgrade their capacity to counter it effectively... and it is not alone... it will have all sorts of support systems and vehicles too... unlike the T-72 in the desert whose only protection was the fake inflatable models around it...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    HM1199

    Posts : 50
    Points : 52
    Join date : 2016-07-03

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  HM1199 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:30 pm

    well that one is true.
    people claiming the optics / sensitive parts will conveniently be shut down , as if there isn't a plethora of other harware peices around.

    Is there any source speaking about the T14 creating a magnatic field to mess up with detonation fuses?

    Austin

    Posts : 6237
    Points : 6643
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:42 pm

    HM1199 wrote:well that one is true.
    people claiming the optics / sensitive parts will conveniently be shut down , as if there isn't a plethora of other harware peices around.

    Is there any source speaking about the T14 creating a magnatic field to mess up with detonation fuses?

    HM1199 can you clarify on the AESA issue on "Busting Myths about T-50" video you created , Its an Amazing Video which I shared can you update the video to make it more upto date ?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16339
    Points : 16970
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:12 pm

    Is there any source speaking about the T14 creating a magnatic field to mess up with detonation fuses?

    Standard mine clearing vehicles including the BMR-3M have jammers for radio command mines and IEDs and have done for decades.

    In fact I think the mine roller kits for BMPs and tanks have jammers included too.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:41 pm