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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

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    Cyrus the great

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:32 pm


    Garry B wrote:

    developing a whole new calibre is expensive... they would not have developed a 152mm round if a 140mm round would have done the job.

    The Russians have probably already developed an entire line of 152mm ammunition so they won't start all over. Dmitry Rogozin said that the 152mm could penetrate a meter of steel but I thought that a round that big would penetrate at least 1500mm of armour.

    Garry B wrote:
    Don't worry... US Strong Internet warriors will rely on the fact that anything good that is Russian is either a copy of a US system or a lie.

    The Abrams wont be the best tank in the world but it will be the best combat proven tank in the world.... hahaha... and then they will talk about the next gen US tank being the best and they can make up all sorts of capabilities for that tank because it wont exist.

    The American fanboys are good for a laugh. They're useful in that sense. The king-kong chest-thumping is crazy. I'm convinced that most of them are just teenagers because there is no way that grown men can be that ignorant and obnoxious and be proud of it.
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    Militarov

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:49 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Militarov

    I was reading up on the M1A3 development and it is there that they spoke of the need to integrate an external phone onto the tank so I assumed that they didn't have it on any current Abrams. It's strange that they had it on all their tanks and withdrew that feature in the Abrams only to reinstate recently. A million thanks for going to all the trouble of providing the pictures to the forum.  Thanks, mate. cheers


    Yeah infantry telephone was not considered as required when M1 entered service, it was added later i assume after first Gulf War, and later in Second war in Iraq and then it became standard in this TUSK update, but still majority of M1A1/2s lack telephone.

    You are welcome.
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    GarryB

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:35 am


    Yeah infantry telephone was not considered as required when M1 entered service, it was added later i assume after first Gulf War, and later in Second war in Iraq and then it became standard in this TUSK update, but still majority of M1A1/2s lack telephone.

    I rather suspect they thought their net centric communications up the yahzoo probably made them think fitting a telephone to the back of their vehicles was unnecessary.

    Certainly it takes a lot of balls to walk up to a 70 ton vehicle that might decide to reverse or move at any time without warning, but it is also the most secure and direct way to talk to a tank crew.

    The Russians have probably already developed an entire line of 152mm ammunition so they won't start all over. Dmitry Rogozin said that the 152mm could penetrate a meter of steel but I thought that a round that big would penetrate at least 1500mm of armour.

    But the point is that it will be all new and completely unrelated and not compatible with existing 152mm calibre ammo. Of course it could be that a self guiding missile could have been developed for both guns as the large calibre would allow lots of internal space for a decent fire and forget guidance system with top attack and a significant shaped charge warhead or warheads that would be useful for both MBTs and self propelled artillery.
    Equally the HE shells could be unified, but assuming Armata uses something like ANIET then a HE round with a tail fuse rather than a nose mounted fuse with lots of fragments designed to be delivered forward and sideways would be ideal for a tank but not so for artillery where a nose fuse and side fragments are more effective.

    The American fanboys are good for a laugh. They're useful in that sense. The king-kong chest-thumping is crazy. I'm convinced that most of them are just teenagers because there is no way that grown men can be that ignorant and obnoxious and be proud of it.

    Knowing (Thinking) they are a force for good in the world helps them sleep at night... it is just sad that they don't care for the truth, they are living The American Dream... so sad they are in the matrix and don't want to wake up. That is not pride... it is denial. they would rather be false gods than nobodies... the same as everyone else...


    Last edited by GarryB on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Sunbeam

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Sunbeam on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:24 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Dmitry Rogozin said that the 152mm could penetrate a meter of steel
     
    Didn't they say it about 125mm on Armata and round for it?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:30 am

    Sunbeam wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Dmitry Rogozin said that the 152mm could penetrate a meter of steel
     
    Didn't they say it about 125mm on Armata and round for it?

    Currently yes but it is planned that it should get 152mm in near future when it is considered as needed.
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    jhelb

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  jhelb on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Knowing they are a force for good in the world helps them sleep at night... it is just sad that they care for the truth. they are living the dream...

    Didn't get you. How can they care for the truth and still live the dream?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:40 pm



    With english subtitles.

    Shows autonomic target tracking without crew onboard, firing of training HEAT rounds of the footage that we have seen but without the secrecy and few other things mentioned.


    This is the full documentary without english subtitles, you will have to use CC audio identification subtitles which actually suck.

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    GarryB

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:03 am

    Didn't get you. How can they care for the truth and still live the dream?

    Original is fixed....


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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Zivo on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:40 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    With english subtitles.

    Shows autonomic target tracking without crew onboard, firing of training HEAT rounds of the footage that we have seen but without the secrecy and few other things mentioned.


    This is the full documentary without english subtitles, you will have to use CC audio identification subtitles which actually suck.


    Mother of god... the FCS is amazing.

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    Mike E

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Mike E on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:43 am

    Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:35 am

    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.

    The Thermals will be always lacking, because they probably will rely more and more on radar-based solutions. There's been a rumour about trend in the IDF to have the new guys use the tracking radar of the Trophy to check for movement. This off course for rather short ranges. I can see the Russians wanting to have that "silent capability" too. Off course there would have to be new models for radar pattern reckon and the tanks will heat up and ring like hell.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Zivo on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:26 am

    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the K-2 nor the Type-10 have 360 degree sensor coverage like the T-14 does.
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    Militarov

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:18 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the K-2 nor the Type-10 have 360 degree sensor coverage like the T-14 does.

    Type 10 has 360 degree sensor coverage, day night optronics and also its probably the most sophistacted in the world atm when its about data fusion and battle managament system integration. Its slaved to JGSDF network and has Command, Control, Communication, Computer & Intelligence capabilities on its own so it shares data with basically every platform slaved to the system on the battlefield.

    Here you can read abit more: http://www.mod.go.jp/e/jdf/no33/column.html and http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/mbt-x.htm
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    Werewolf

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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:12 pm

    What has been seen and what therefor is assumed is that there is no other tank with sensor fusion as Armata, not to mention that there are no more than 3 tanks with more than one type of sensors.

    Not just sensor fusion for passive/reactive and active counter measures but for offensive and optronic means.
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    Zivo

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Zivo on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:56 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the K-2 nor the Type-10 have 360 degree sensor coverage like the T-14 does.

    Type 10 has 360 degree sensor coverage, day night optronics and also its probably the most sophistacted in the world atm when its about data fusion and battle managament system integration. Its slaved to JGSDF network and has Command, Control, Communication, Computer & Intelligence capabilities on its own so it shares data with basically every platform slaved to the system on the battlefield.

    Here you can read abit more: http://www.mod.go.jp/e/jdf/no33/column.html and http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/mbt-x.htm

    Does the Type 10 have radar? None of the sensors look like arrays to me and I cant find anything about it in writing. It just looks like the same panoramic cameras that are on a few other MBT samples.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:27 pm

    Because it has no radars it has only Shtora like LWR.
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    Militarov

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:56 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the K-2 nor the Type-10 have 360 degree sensor coverage like the T-14 does.

    Type 10 has 360 degree sensor coverage, day night optronics and also its probably the most sophistacted in the world atm when its about data fusion and battle managament system integration. Its slaved to JGSDF network and has Command, Control, Communication, Computer & Intelligence capabilities on its own so it shares data with basically every platform slaved to the system on the battlefield.

    Here you can read abit more: http://www.mod.go.jp/e/jdf/no33/column.html and http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/mbt-x.htm

    Does the Type 10 have radar? None of the sensors look like arrays to me and I cant find anything about it in writing. It just looks like the same panoramic cameras that are on a few other MBT samples.

    From what we know atm it does not have own radar, however data from artillery radars and UAVs that have radars can be fed to its BMS. Tho i expect it to get some kind of APS that will feature radar most likely, current model does not have it, if i had to bet it might be based on South Korean systems that is being developed for K2.

    Cyrus the great

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:37 am



    Militarov wrote:Yeah infantry telephone was not considered as required when M1 entered service, it was added later i assume after first Gulf War, and later in Second war in Iraq and then it became standard in this TUSK update, but still majority of M1A1/2s lack telephone.

    You are welcome.

    How many years after the Gulf war was the telephone introduced into the Abrams? I wonder why it took them so long to make it standard. They probably had those ungodly delays because of the way the Pentagon and the greedy military industrial complex operate. These are the same people that thought that the Bradley's replacement should be as heavy as 84 tons. Shocked

    Garry B wrote:
    But the point is that it will be all new and completely unrelated and not compatible with existing 152mm calibre ammo. Of course it could be that a self guiding missile could have been developed for both guns as the large calibre would allow lots of internal space for a decent fire and forget guidance system with top attack and a significant shaped charge warhead or warheads that would be useful for both MBTs and self propelled artillery.
    Equally the HE shells could be unified, but assuming Armata uses something like ANIET then a HE round with a tail fuse rather than a nose mounted fuse with lots of fragments designed to be delivered forward and sideways would be ideal for a tank but not so for artillery where a nose fuse and side fragments are more effective.

    Sticking with the 152mm would certainly be wise on all counts, especially when one considers the time and money that Russia must have expended on developing this gun. I've never heard of a tail fuse but it sounds deliciously destructive. Twisted Evil

    Garry B wrote:

    Knowing (Thinking) they are a force for good in the world helps them sleep at night... it is just sad that they don't care for the truth, they are living The American Dream... so sad they are in the matrix and don't want to wake up. That is not pride... it is denial. they would rather be false gods than nobodies... the same as everyone else...

    Americans are hilarious - I actually like them, but their ignorance is unbelievable. They don't realise that globalist elites in CFR and such are ruining their country and making them hated the world over.

    Cyrus the great

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:38 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    With english subtitles.

    Shows autonomic target tracking without crew onboard, firing of training HEAT rounds of the footage that we have seen but without the secrecy and few other things mentioned.


    This is the full documentary without english subtitles, you will have to use CC audio identification subtitles which actually suck.


    Holy shit... now that's a tank for the 21st century. Thanks for this video, Werewolf.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:04 am

    Mike E wrote:Well, it isn't anything extraordinary. The most impressive stuff is of course the autonomy, which is also found in tanks like the K2 and Type-10.

    I'm just really hoping the thermal sights are better than rumored.
    And what is this rumored thermal issues you speak of?  Armata will more than like end up with Agat and Irbis K which already outperforme that of Catherine FC.
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    Mike E

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Mike E on Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:13 am

    Ugh, issues? Never mentioned that Neutral

    Going off of current data (found on Paralay I believe) it'll basically match the Catherine-XP in most parameters; x3 magnification, x2 zoom, 20 mK sensitivity (whatever it is), and a 600-ish resolution sensor. That's not bad, but simply put, it isn't up there with the top models. In all honesty, it just needs higher magnification and sensor resolution, which is where it is outperformed (for ex, FLIR gen 2 has a magnification of x25, and resolution of over 900 IIRC, while its' updated version can also output 1080p).

    Hopefully it is better than expected, that, or a return to radar-assisted sights?
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:38 am

    Mike E wrote:Ugh, issues? Never mentioned that Neutral

    Going off of current data (found on Paralay I believe) it'll basically match the Catherine-XP in most parameters; x3 magnification, x2 zoom, 20 mK sensitivity (whatever it is), and a 600-ish resolution sensor. That's not bad, but simply put, it isn't up there with the top models. In all honesty, it just needs higher magnification and sensor resolution, which is where it is outperformed (for ex, FLIR gen 2 has a magnification of x25, and resolution of over 900 IIRC, while its' updated version can also output 1080p).

    Hopefully it is better than expected, that, or a return to radar-assisted sights?

    Let's remember now that the T-14 is a prototype, and that Russian MOD wants to get it in to service as cheap as possible, hence the reason why they went with the less radical 125mm smooth-bore main gun with the option (if deemed necessary) to upgrade to a 152mm smooth-bore main gun (among under future upgrades). At a estimated $3.7 million price tag (half the price of the best foreign analogues of an older generation), which means theirs plenty of 'economic elbow-room' to upgrade the T-14 to a higher standard if deemed necessary. Upgrades which could come in the form of a 152mm main gun, superior thermals, and or potentially DIRCM suite or even photonic based systems of various stripes.

    One last thing, if the thermals match the Catherine-XP, then that's what they're probably using. At this point in time the Russian MIC is in a point of transition of radically reducing foreign dependency, and while the the Catherine-XP is tolerated (because they're domestically manufactured under license), it'll take time to replace them with a more advanced domestically made thermals (I estimate no less than 2 years). So in the mean time it's better to train your MBT operators with some thermals compared to training them with older, less capable domestic variants, or even worse, no thermals at all.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:54 am

    Mike E wrote:Ugh, issues? Never mentioned that Neutral

    Going off of current data (found on Paralay I believe) it'll basically match the Catherine-XP in most parameters; x3 magnification, x2 zoom, 20 mK sensitivity (whatever it is), and a 600-ish resolution sensor. T

    I'd expect that mK is sensitivity to temperature differences, in that it can distinguish a deltaT of as little as 20 milli-degrees Kelvins. One degree temperature difference is resolved into 50 levels.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:43 pm

    What is important in sights is not the resolution but the wavelength of IR spectrum it can see and how it is processed. It is much higher importance to see further and actually have targets popping up on your 516p monitors rather than having 1080p resolution on a 516p monitor. It does you almost no good to have 1080P resolution when you have such an ununified resolution of military standard monitors. The picture of 1080p can not even be down sampled effeciently to fit that kind of resolution the screen can produce. Meening it is mainly waste and bigger monitors are out of question.

    Detection range> target acquisition > target identification > image processing and then resolution comes in not before any of the others. The Armata and even older systems have exact that while no foreign tank besides Merkawa has that. The point is still we have to wait to see MWIR/LWIR or QWIP image processing on ground vehicles, which is good but also highly wasteful due to low ranges and environment they operate in.
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    Mike E

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

    Post  Mike E on Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:26 pm

    Sorry, but that makes no sense.

    Who mentioned a 516p (what kind of resolution is that...) monitor?

    To see far, you need a high-resolution array, high magnification, and maybe even high output (monitor) resolution (which improves the image when using electronic zoom).

    I believe you are talking about digital processing, which isn't exactly an exclusive feature. MS, even the M1A2 use it.

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