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    1945–1952: The Early Cold War

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was a stalemate... neither side was able to force a win or anything like a win and both sides decided to stop fighting.

    No stalemate there. The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed. It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).
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    eehnie

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:19 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:It was a stalemate... neither side was able to force a win or anything like a win and both sides decided to stop fighting.

    No stalemate there. The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed. It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    This is one example of Western Propaganda. Rewriting the history...
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    GarryB

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:39 am

    No stalemate there.

    The north wanted to unify Korea under northern communist rule... they did not end up with what they wanted... therefore the only reason to sign a ceasefire agreement was because they could not change this.

    The South wanted to survive and were slaughtered by the north... it was only the arrival of UN forces that stopped the norths advance and reversed to a push in the opposite direction to a similar position that the north achieved against the south.

    The UN didn't want the new border to be on the 38th parallel... otherwise that is where they would have stopped and then demanded a peace agreement. They wanted a non communist Korea under south korean control. Had teh chinese not intervened they would have gotten that... but then if the UN had not intervened then the north koreans would have gotten what they wanted too.

    Enter the Chinese who pushed the UN forces back to just beyond the 38th parallel... they wanted the UN supported forces of South Korea further away from their border.

    You could say the North did not get what they wanted, the south managed to keep what they had, and the UN ended up with rather less than they wanted... only the Chinese got exactly what they wanted, but you say they lost...

    The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed.

    Their invasion only failed because the UN intervened on the side of their enemy... they had basically defeated the south and then the US and her bitches stepped in.

    It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    But then the UN force did not get what it wanted either... a non communist Korea... so they failed too... in fact they took most of the country only to be driven back to where everything started so their defeat is actually very comparable to their defeat of the North Korean forces... so you can say the effect of the Chinese forces on the forces of most of the western world was rather comparable to the effect of the UN forces on North Korea... and the effect of the North Koreans on the South Koreans was similar again...

    But you claim the only force that achieved its objectives and moved the UN force away from its border was the outmatched Chinese.... Amusing.


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    eehnie

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:53 am

    GarryB wrote:
    No stalemate there.

    The north wanted to unify Korea under northern communist rule... they did not end up with what they wanted... therefore the only reason to sign a ceasefire agreement was because they could not change this.

    The South wanted to survive and were slaughtered by the north... it was only the arrival of UN forces that stopped the norths advance and reversed to a push in the opposite direction to a similar position that the north achieved against the south.

    The UN didn't want the new border to be on the 38th parallel... otherwise that is where they would have stopped and then demanded a peace agreement. They wanted a non communist Korea under south korean control. Had teh chinese not intervened they would have gotten that... but then if the UN had not intervened then the north koreans would have gotten what they wanted too.

    Enter the Chinese who pushed the UN forces back to just beyond the 38th parallel... they wanted the UN supported forces of South Korea further away from their border.

    You could say the North did not get what they wanted, the south managed to keep what they had, and the UN ended up with rather less than they wanted... only the Chinese got exactly what they wanted, but you say they lost...

    The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed.

    Their invasion only failed because the UN intervened on the side of their enemy... they had basically defeated the south and then the US and her bitches stepped in.

    It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    But then the UN force did not get what it wanted either... a non communist Korea... so they failed too... in fact they took most of the country only to be driven back to where everything started so their defeat is actually very comparable to their defeat of the North Korean forces... so you can say the effect of the Chinese forces on the forces of most of the western world was rather comparable to the effect of the UN forces on North Korea... and the effect of the North Koreans on the South Koreans was similar again...

    But you claim the only force that achieved its objectives and moved the UN force away from its border was the outmatched Chinese.... Amusing.

    Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    The war was a tie (with some big and painful defeats for the US in between).
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:16 am

    eehnie wrote:Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    Only one side tried to purse that political goal by invading the other side and starting a war.
    That was the North and they lost that war.

    North's invasion was very similar to what Sakasvili tried to do in S. Ossetia, minus the part that no major power supported him with boots on the ground or air force like the PRC did for DPRK.
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    eehnie

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:45 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    Only one side tried to purse that political goal by invading the other side and starting a war.
    That was the North and they lost that war.

    North's invasion was very similar to what Sakasvili tried to do in S. Ossetia, minus the part that no major power supported him with boots on the ground or air force like the PRC did for DPRK.

    The President (dictator) of South Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    (before the war)

    However, both Kim Il-Sung and Syng-Man Rhee restlessly desired to unite the peninsula and they did not fear to use military force for this matter as neither one of them accepted the other’s ideology. Spies were executed when found across the border, and many gun-involved aggressions broke out near the 38th parallel; even though the incidents were “faint,” there was a “chain of violence,” between the North and South Korean armies and it almost reached up to the point of the Korean War.[6]

    Rhee and his South Korean officers greatly wanted to march into the North. He had spoke to his adviser Dr. Robert Oliver that “North Korea should be recaptured by the force of arms to fulfill the UN’s mandate that the Republic of Korea government is the only legitimate government,” and “to fulfill the ancient nationality of Korea.”[7]

    http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/resource/modern-korean-history-portal/syngman-rhee

    (At the time of the war, from the transition between the 1st and 2nd map you posted until the 3rd map)

    The success of the Inchon landing on Sept. 15–16, ushered in a new phase of the war. Following the retaking of Seoul by the UNC X Corps on Sept. 28, MacArthur and Rhee made a triumphal entry, driving by motorcade to the gutted capitol building. Rhee sensed victory within his grasp, and he lobbied for an all-out drive to annihilate the North Korean armed forces and liberate the communist North. On Oct. 7, the U.N. General Assembly approved a resolution permitting punitive action against North Korea and calling for the unification of the Peninsula. With shouts of “On to the Yalu,” ROK troops poured across the 38th parallel. To the aged Rhee, a lifelong objective appeared in sight.

    Rhee Seeks to Unify Korea

    Rhee moved to capitalize on the U.N. advance across the parallel. As president, he believed it fell to him to appoint provisional governors in the Republic of Korea; he now began also to appoint governors to rule in his name over liberated areas of the North. But the United Nations ruled that his government had no authority north of the 38th parallel, and the General Assembly decreed that the government of a united Korea should be determined by U.N.-supervised elections throughout the country. Rhee bitterly opposed this ruling on the grounds that the legitimacy of the Republic of Korea had already been certified by a U.N. commission in 1948. Liberated areas of North Korea were nonetheless kept under military administration in accordance with the U.N. directive.

    Early in the war, Rhee effectively gave Truman an ultimatum. Much as he might wish that Truman would accept his views and make American policy coincide with Korean policy, Rhee intended to pursue what he felt the welfare of his country demanded. Rhee declared: “The government and people of the Republic of Korea consider this is the time to unify Korea, and for anything less than unification to come out of these great sacrifices of Koreans and their powerful allies would be unthinkable. The Korean government would consider as without binding effect any future agreement or understanding made regarding Korea by other states without the consent and approval of the government of the Republic of Korea.”

    Catastrophe confronted Rhee and his government in November when thousands of communist Chinese troops eviscerated four South Korean divisions near the Chongchon River, and again in November when Chinese forces repulsed a new U.N. offensive. The ominous shadows threatening Seoul on Christmas 1950, finally enveloped the ravaged city as the new year dawned, and on Jan. 4, 1951, communist forces once again occupied the South Korean capital. As both MacArthur and Rhee noted, it was a new war.

    Clear enough. South Korea, its president and government wanted to unify Korea under their rule. And they reached not the goal. Just like North Korea.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:34 pm

    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:05 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:27 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.


    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:35 pm

    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.

    The south attacking and occupying those areas is an act of war... just like Suck Arse Milli Vanili attacking the VDV base and the capital of South Ossetia was also an act of war.

    The difference is that the Russians had no reason to occupy Georgia, while the North Koreans wanted to destroy the corrupt government of the south and free the whole country.

    When the UN intervened on the South Koreans behalf they took that opportunity to get what they wanted... ie not just the land they had back but also all of north korea too under a south korean government.

    They probably would have gotten it but the Chinese intervened and pushed them back pretty much to the start lines at the 38th parallel.


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    1945–1952: The Early Cold War

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:17 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.


    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.

    Once again, there's no doubt both sides wanted to get on with the ugly side. Both sides were prepared for offensive operations and both sides engaged in cross-border skirmishes. The problem is that we're looking at a casus belli. That was provided by the ROK and it was even published in front page in two of the most "hawkish" newspapers at the time.

    The morons in Seoul wanted to get the US involved, the morons in PyonYang knew that was the risk. Why would they have prepared that assault in the dead middle of the empty seat policy at the UN. There are some explanations (mainly Stalin wanting to have the attention out of the Berlin crisis, pulling the US is a costly war, it would wage with its own troops, fighting that final chapter of WW2 that was cut short by both the nuclear weapons but also by the Soviet decision to break the Japanese will by committing to the side of the US vs Japan and abandoning its neutrality).

    That the South Koreans fucked up by providing a Casus Belli for the DPRK, actually besting these same North Koreans plans for a Gleiwitz style op shouldn't be hidden by the broad consensus of a largely Colonial UN back in 1950.

    The Korean War is a Civil war inside a proxy War, there's little interest on finding victims and aggressors while until the 70's the regimes were broadly similar.

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