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    Cold War after World War II

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    GarryB

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:06 am

    Really ? How many Americans float to Cuba to live in the "Worker's Paradise" as so often spouted by Soviet propaganda ?

    Why have there been bans on direct flights from the US to Cuba?

    Communism is blamed for all sorts of things, but the economy of China seems to have been growing for a while now...

    Had they expanded their operations in the source of their problems (North) the US would likely and comfortably come on top and at least get to keep the South more than 1975 until USSR's collapse.

    You sound very confident of that... would they also have won in Korea too if they had not been so soft?

    Even better if the US had just minded its own business and not dragged its allies (NZ, Australia, Canada etc) into a war that was really none of our business it would have been over much quicker with a fraction of the deaths and no cost to the US taxpayer.

    China was unable to achieve much in the 1979 war with the Vietnamese, they would be positively trashed by hypothetical US forces stationed in the North.

    What else could they do... hypothetical US forces are the best... didn't you know that?

    China was thoroughly surprised in Vietnam in 1979 and outmatched in Korea despite their superior numbers and momentum (July 1953).

    hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Bit like the outmatched Allied forces on D Day invading europe and pushing the superior german forces back to the rhine...


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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:13 pm

    Some facts about PLA of 1950:
    - Very little tanks and artillery
    - No air cover until Soviet entry into the war
    - Outdated command and control. No radios below regimental level, no telephone lines below battallion.
    - Few maps. Often regimental commanders did not even know what terrain is in front of them
    - Deficient recon
    - No mechanization.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:50 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.


    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.

    Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    North Korea attacked South Korea. the US and the UN entered in the war at the time of the first map. China entered at the the time of the second map.

    China forced between the 2nd and the 3rd map the biggest retreats of the US in their history. And they were not alone. If you want we can detail which countries were in the UN coalition.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:51 pm

    havok wrote: Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

    at your level or professionalism and admiral Kirby´s too Smile


    higurashihougi wrote:
    havok wrote:[What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.


    And what are his reasons and proofs ?

    C´mon muricans need no proves ! +look at this lightweight and short Psaki called admiral Kirby Razz Razz Razz he is th ebest proof to what i say Smile
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:55 pm

    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got spectacularly pushed back to the 38th within a month or so. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79. Vietnam got to keep Cambodia till 1989 too while China tried to compensate by allying with... USA. lol1


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got pushed back to the 38th eventually. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79.

    These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    The Chinese still had to be admired for what they did.

    I outlined all weaknesses of PLA in my last post, their army was almost at WW1 level (minus the industrial potential of an average WW1 participant). Their victories are very remarkable even if they needed 3x more man and 5x more casualties to achieve that.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 pm

    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:32 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    Result: Decisive Chinese victory

    Territorial changes: Communists regain control of all areas north of the 38th parallel

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:42 pm


    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:02 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.

    You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies. Just after the entry of China in the war.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:05 pm

    eehnie wrote:You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies.

    What? Nope. I said the commies were pushed back twice, as it happened.
    Korea is not a US defeat, it's a western success story.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:24 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    This was false. The Chinese entered in the war at the time of the second map.

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

    And this was false too. The Chinese defeated the troops of the US and their allies. Big and painful defeats for them.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:02 pm

    eehnie wrote:This was false. The Chinese entered in the war at the time of the second map.

    It was true as the communist bloc (part of it was Chinese from day 1) was pushed back twice.

    eehnie wrote:And this was false too. The Chinese defeated the troops of the US and their allies. Big and painful defeats for them.

    Whatever you say lol1
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:45 pm

    Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News is more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:51 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:39 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:06 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?

    From the top of my head, four nice books.

    L. Krylov and Y. Tepsurkaev, "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War". Osprey Publishing, 2008
    R. P. Hallion, "The Naval Air War in Korea". University of Alabama Press, 2011
    R. Jackson, "Air War Korea". Airlife Publishing, 1998
    S. M. Jager, "Brothers at War: The Unending Conflict in Korea". Profile, 2013
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    eehnie

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  eehnie on Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:49 am

    If you would read the books you would know that the Sovietic MiGs only entered the war after the 2nd map, after the Chinese entry in the war.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:30 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?

    From the top of my head, four nice books.

    L. Krylov and Y. Tepsurkaev, "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War". Osprey Publishing, 2008
    R. P. Hallion, "The Naval Air War in Korea". University of Alabama Press, 2011
    R. Jackson, "Air War Korea". Airlife Publishing, 1998
    S. M. Jager, "Brothers at War: The Unending Conflict in Korea". Profile, 2013


    So actually mostly form US sources? and Korea is better in propaganda or US? just being curious.


    You know MiGs have no chances with US naval fighters :-)



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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:11 am

    eehnie wrote:If you would read the books you would know that the Sovietic MiGs only entered the war after the 2nd map, after the Chinese entry in the war.

    Maybe you should read them, as I did.
    Korean War was not just fancy planes and deployed grunts. It was also logistics, planning, preparation and military training.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So actually mostly form US sources?

    No they're not government-sanctioned sources.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Cold War after World War II

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:54 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So actually mostly form US sources?

    No they're not government-sanctioned sources.

    True but "free and independent media" are mostly Russo-haters in 90%, i by definition do not trust wester media until they prove otherwise.

    Best example - ivan was the Terrible because he killed like 10 times less people then one night in France in Paris in comparable times? well judge yourself.

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