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    India and Russia joint military projects: News

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:02 am

    Why, then, did New Delhi settle for the AK-203 in 7.62х39? There are few military reasons to opt for the smaller 7.62x39 casing, as 7.62x51 rounds will generally travel faster and farther under similar circumstances.
    Rather, India’s change of heart likely comes from the logistical and financial benefits of the joint production arrangement between Kalashnikov and India’s Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) production organization. In specific, OFB will hold a 50.5 percent stake in the joint venture. A majority share gives the Indian government access to Kalashnikov’s considerable supply chain and technical expertise, while still retaining long-term political decision-making power over the course of the project.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-russias-deadly-ak-203-rifle-one-nation-just-bought-750000-46232
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:18 am

    Why, then, did New Delhi settle for the AK-203 in 7.62х39? There are few military reasons to opt for the smaller 7.62x39 casing, as 7.62x51 rounds will generally travel faster and farther under similar circumstances.

    Like many countries India moved from 7.62x51mm calibre with the FN FAL rifle to the 5.56mm in their own new design they called INSAS, but they also used AKs in 7.62x39mm calibre as an infantry rifle too in built up areas, because they claimed it was more effective against human targets.

    What they are doing with the AK-203 is replacing AKs in 7.62 x 39mm and INSAS in 5.56 x 45mm calibre with a modern rifle they can easily attach optics to in 7.62x39mm calibre.

    These are assault rifles... they are expected to be used to about 3-400m.

    An SLR would really only extend that effective range to perhaps 500m and that would be assuming they get the proper training and optics to achieve that.

    Try for yourself... use GPS and pace out 400m and look back to where you started and see how tiny a person is at that distance. Normal infantry wont look for targets out to that range and most of the time they will be firing from cover and wearing camouflage.

    With 5.56mm even if you could hit a target at that range it wont likely go down unless you fluke your shot and hit something vital... which is pretty unlikely.

    Experience in Afghanistan shows the short barrel M4 carbines the troops prefer because they are compact and fire full auto instead of the M16s long length and 3 round burst only, and also the M249 with the little short para barrels means neither was reliably effective at more than 200m against real targets.

    Western magazines stated the enemy were using Kalashnikovs from 800-900 metres to shoot at allied forces... which sounds weird until you appreciate they are talking about PKM belt fed machine guns in 7.62 x 54mm calibre.


    A majority share gives the Indian government access to Kalashnikov’s considerable supply chain and technical expertise, while still retaining long-term political decision-making power over the course of the project.

    A bit like the British... both produced a new rifle for the 5.56mm fad and both botched the job... India is correcting by going with an upgraded Russian weapon... the British had to hand it over to the Germans to fix their cockup.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:21 am

    Actually it will be interesting because the same factory should be able to make RPK-16s, which have removable barrels... perhaps they might try for a multi calibre LMG where infantry have 7.62x39mm, while the support weapons use a long barrel and 5.56mm calibre, or perhaps 7.62x51mm calibre...
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:11 am

    A lot will depend on whether India goes American on the new aircraft tender.

    Russia shouldn't overreact and play into Americans stratagems. It's true that the more time passes the more congested the Pakistani market becomes... a pickle indeed. The faster the new tender concludes the clearer the picture.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:37 am

    I can't see India going for a major US aircraft purchase... they have seen how the US pulls the strings they have... it would be short sighted to add more strings to their arsenal as it is strings against the interests of India.

    The AK-203 is basically replacing the AK and the INSAS, but they are buying some M4 clones by Sig Sauer in 5.56mm calibre for infantry units intended to fight open warfare in open terrain.

    In a video Austin posted on another thread they may produce 2 million rifles for their own forces and look to export to local friendly nations too...
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:I can't see India going for a major US aircraft purchase... they have seen how the US pulls the strings they have... it would be short sighted to add more strings to their arsenal as it is strings against the interests of India.

    So SIPRI's recent report released this week mentions that the Top 3 importers of Russian weapons in 2014-18 are India, China and Algeria.

    https://www.sipri.org/publications/2019/sipri-fact-sheets/trends-international-arms-transfers-2018

    China's MIC has grown in leaps and bound so they may not remain a major client for long but countries like India, Algeria, Iran will remain customers of Russian weapons for a long time.

    I think India moved out of the PAK-FA project because

    (a) they could not pay the money and
    (b) with China placing S 400 on their western borders the PAK-FA will not stand a chance


    The first issue (cited by India) can be addressed by Kremlin by focusing more on rich Arab states and Pakistan.

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:54 pm

    New center for repairing Russian helicopters in India to start operating this year

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1050691
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:02 am

    I think India moved out of the PAK-FA project because

    (a) they could not pay the money and
    (b) with China placing S 400 on their western borders the PAK-FA will not stand a chance

    More like they seem to want the best toys, but are not prepared to pay what it costs to develop them.

    I rather suspect they think they can wait till it is in operation and then buy some and have the modified to their own specs for the price of the modifications... I really don't think the Russians will agree to that to be honest...

    And the PAK FA would have a better chance against S-400 than any model Flanker...

    I am sure they can make a PAK FA-MKI model for export that is more capable and sophisticated than any 4th gen fighter but much cheaper and actually works properly unlike the western 5th gen options on the table.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:More like they seem to want the best toys, but are not prepared to pay what it costs to develop them.

    I doubt that. It's essentially a very poor country. Even Sub Saharan Africa, Afghanistan has a higher per capita income compared to India. India has the largest number of poor people in the world.


    GarryB wrote:And the PAK FA would have a better chance against S-400 than any model Flanker...

    What ???? S-400 was designed to engage stealth aircraft. Why do you think PAK-FA has a better chance against S-400 ? Plus China's extensive satellite network would in any case pick up an Indian PAK-FA the moment it takes of.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 am

    I doubt that. It's essentially a very poor country. Even Sub Saharan Africa, Afghanistan has a higher per capita income compared to India. India has the largest number of poor people in the world.

    ???

    Did you understand what I said?

    More like they seem to want the best toys, but are not prepared to pay what it costs to develop them.

    India wants 5th gen fighters but wants them for the price of just buying them off the shelf... they don't want to contribute to development costs... I didn't say they were rich, I basically am saying they want top end products but they don't want to pay a reasonable price... a bit like the Ukraine wanting mates rates on gas supplies from Russia...

    What ???? S-400 was designed to engage stealth aircraft. Why do you think PAK-FA has a better chance against S-400 ? Plus China's extensive satellite network would in any case pick up an Indian PAK-FA the moment it takes of.

    So it was designed to engage stealth aircraft... that is correct, but like most modern SAM systems it is not very capable at defeating hypersonic threats, so Su-57 with Brahmos II is going to be a problem for any air defence system... even some of the better ones...

    Stealth in this case wont let the Su-57 overfly the enemy SAMs but it will allow them to get closer to launch weapons... and it should also be able to map out enemy defences with its 5th gen avionics suite pretty effectively and likely effectively deal with any Chinese fighters they put up to fill any gap created...
    Pinto
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    India and Russia joint military projects: News - Page 10 Empty Defence ministry approves Navy's Rs 3,600-crore deal with Russia for 10 Kamov-31 helicopters

    Post  Pinto on Sat May 04, 2019 7:20 pm

    Ministry of Defence has cleared Indian Navy's deal with Russia for 10 Kamov-31 helicopters to strengthen its capability against aerial threats to its aircraft carriers and large warships.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/defence-ministry-indian-navy-russia-kamov-31-helicopters-1516576-2019-05-03

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