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    NATO operations in Afghanistan:

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    Drone Attack Kills 4 Militants in Pakistan

    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:51 pm

    Drone Attack Kills 4 Militants in Pakistan

    By Ayaz Gul
    Islamabad
    14 September 2009

    A suspected U.S drone attack in a remote border region of Pakistan is said to have killed at least four militants believed to have links to the Taliban and al-Qaida networks. The Pakistani military says it has killed 16 Taliban militants in the ongoing Swat offensive and has tightened the noose around the key rebel commander in the valley. Analysts say that killings and arrests of some of the top Taliban commanders in recent days appears to have dealt a crippling blow to the insurgents in Pakistan.

    The early morning missile strike in the tribal region known as North Waziristan is said to have struck a vehicle carrying local and foreign militants. Residents and local intelligence officials in the area that borders Afghanistan say that a suspected U.S. unmanned aircraft fired the missiles near the town of Mir Ali.

    Independent confirmation of the death toll is not possible because the region is a militant stronghold.

    It was the third such strike in North Waziristan within the past week. At least 18 suspected militants were killed in the previous two attacks.

    A similar missile attack in the neighboring South Waziristan border region in early August killed Pakistani Taliban leader Baituallah Mehsud.

    Meanwhile, the Pakistani military has reported more gains against Taliban militants in the ongoing offensive in and round the northwestern Swat Valley. It says 16 militants were killed in the clashes, including two key Taliban commanders, while more than 150 suspected fighters surrendered to local military authorities.

    Senior Pakistani officials also say security forces in Swat have surrounded Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah and efforts are being made to capture him. Last week the extremist leader's top spokesman, Muslim Khan was captured with four other militant commanders and military officials say information obtained from the detainees has helped the subsequent raids in Swat.

    Analysts say that recent arrests and killings of top militant commanders, including Baituallah Mehsud, appear to have broken the back of militants and led to infighting among various Taliban groups.

    Former security chief of Pakistan's tribal regions, Mahmood Shah, says the military is better placed today to extend the Swat anti-insurgency offensive into other Taliban strongholds, like the Waziristan region on the Afghan border.

    "The Taliban are basically on retreat," Shah said. "They have not got their acts together. So I think the Swat operation has sent a very strong signal and if the government now starts an operation in even Waziristan, which is considered as a hard nut, I think it has good chances to succeed."

    Pakistan's military says since launching the Swat offensive in late April, it has killed nearly 2,000 militants and captured many more. It has also carried out major air strikes in the South Waziristan tribal region, the Taliban stronghold. But the military has yet to launch a ground offensive there because it says it is consolidating gains in the Swat Valley before expanding the anti-insurgency activity.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/pakistan/2009/pakistan-090914-voa01.htm

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    NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:03 am

    MARJAH, Afghanistan (Reuters) - U.S.-led NATO troops launched a crucial offensive on Saturday against the Taliban's last big stronghold in Afghanistan's most violent province and were quickly thrown into a firefight with the militants.

    WORLD

    The assault is a test of President Barack Obama's ordered "surge" of extra troops to Afghanistan in December and the start of a campaign to impose government control on rebel-held areas this year, before U.S. forces start to withdraw in 2011.

    Within hours of the operation getting underway, U.S. Marines at the tip of the assault battled with Taliban militants in Marjah, in Helmand Province, all the time facing the possibility of being blown up by booby traps rigged across the town.

    Marines engaged in a firefight with Taliban militants after the U.S. troops landed in helicopters near the town. They fired at least four rockets at militants who attacked from compounds.

    At least one Marine was wounded by shrapnel.

    More than two hours later, the area was still gripped by the firefight, with the Marines firing another large rocket. One family of civilians nearby was huddled in a room of their house, with the washing flapping on the line outside.

    The first objective of U.S. Marines was to take over the town center, a large cluster of dwellings.

    A Reuters reporter said exchanges of fire -- with assault rifles crackling -- erupted initially about 300 meters away. Moments earlier, two large explosions resounded and a large black plume of smoke rose into the sky.

    The offensive began with waves of helicopters ferrying U.S. Marines into the city in the early morning hours. British troops then flew into the northern part of the surrounding Nad Ali district, followed by tanks and combat engineering units.

    "The first phase of the operation is proceeding very successfully. The Taliban have heavily booby-trapped the area, but there has not been any fierce fighting yet," Helmand Governor Gulab Mangal told a news conference.

    "We have seized 11 key locations in the district and the resistance from the insurgents has been subdued."

    15,000 TROOPS IN OPERATION

    The 15,000-troop operation may have been named Mushtarak, or together, to highlight that NATO and Afghan forces were determined to work closely to bring stability to Afghanistan.

    Much of whether the apparent early success can translate into a more permanent solution to militancy may depend on whether the government can ensure long-term political and economic stability.

    It is also essential that Afghan troops become effective enough to prevent the return of militants to areas they previously held, without the help of Western firepower.

    Marjah has long been a breeding ground for insurgents and lucrative opium poppy cultivation. Residents may not be keen for any upheaval, even if they were subjected to the Taliban's austere brand of Islam.

    Afghanistan produces more than 90 percent of the world's illegal opium, the raw ingredient used to make heroin, an industry Western countries say funds the insurgency against NATO troops and the Afghan government.

    There are other complicating factors. Many of the militants on the top of the U.S. hit list operate from sanctuaries in forbidding border areas in Pakistan.

    U.S. ally Pakistan is reluctant to pursue them as they see the militants as assets to counter the influence of rival India in Afghanistan. If that does not change, offensives may produce limited results.

    SURROUNDED BY BOMBS

    Decades ago, the Marjah area was home to an Afghan-American development project. Its canals, which criss-cross lush farmland, were built by the Americans. Now NATO is trying to recapture it from militants unlikely to contemplate cooperation with the West.

    A local Taliban commander, Qari Fazluddin, told Reuters earlier some 2,000 fighters were ready to fight.

    Unlike previous operations, this offensive has been flagged for months, a move commanders hoped will persuade many fighters to lay down their arms or flee.

    The safety of civilians may be the vital issue for NATO against the Taliban, which have re-emerged as a deadly fighting force since they were toppled by a U.S.-led invasion in 2001.

    NATO forces have advised civilians not to leave their homes, though it is uncertain whether heavy fighting will occur.

    Most of the estimated 100,000 residents of the area have stayed put. But others have headed 30 km (18 miles) east to the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah. "All the walls between the streets and houses are surrounded by bombs. Most people have gone to Lashkar Gah. That's where we want to go today," resident Abdel Aziz, 16, told the Marines through a translator.

    Soon after, an elderly woman emerged from her house and asked Marines not to fire at it. "This is just my house," she said.


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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:02 pm

    Marja Operations Move Toward ‘Holding’ Phase

    By Donna Miles
    American Forces Press Service

    WASHINGTON, Feb. 25, 2010 – Operations in Marja, Afghanistan, are transitioning from the clearing to the holding phase, as today’s turnover of the government center there marks a symbol of progress, Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell said today.

    Twelve days into Operation Moshtarak, the offensive in the former Taliban stronghold is “trending in a very positive direction,” Morrell said, on both the military and governance fronts.

    The new Afghan government raised its flag over Marja today, with Abdul Zahir Aryan installed as its administrator. Morrell called the transfer of the government center “symbolic of where we are in this operation.”

    Much of the city is now under Afghan and coalition control, and many of its citizens are returning to their homes, Morrell reported. Bazaars have reopened, and they’re full of goods that demonstrate the freedom of movement needed to promote commerce.

    Meanwhile, the Afghan government is extending its reach to ensure the clearing and subsequent holding phases of the counterinsurgency strategy successfully lead to building good governance and quality-of-life improvements.

    “Yesterday, there were more shuras taking place in Marja than there were troops in contact,” Morrell said, referring to government-sponsored citizens’ meetings. “That’s the kind of progress … that we’ve been looking for and that we are heartened to see.”

    Morrell took care not to sugarcoat the operation. “Although signs point to progress, it is still clearly a very dangerous situation,” he said. “We’re still losing troops,” with improvised explosive devices remaining the biggest threat.

    “So we have to be very careful about how we progress into those areas that are not under Afghan and coalition control,” he said. “We’re doing so in a very thorough, methodical way so as to alleviate any potential for civilian or coalition force casualties.”

    The United States has suffered more casualties than Afghan security forces in the operation only because they tend to conduct high-risk missions such as route-clearing operations, and because enemy forces see them as more prized targets, Morrell said.

    Morrell conceded that the Afghan security forces will need help “for some time,” particularly in the intelligence and logistics arenas. But he dispelled reports that Afghan security forces aren’t carrying their load in the fight.

    “No one has ever questioned their willingness or their ability to fight,” he said. “These guys are every bit in the midst of this operation. … They match us one for one on the ground.”

    Meanwhile, across the border, the Pakistani government continues to show leadership in its own offensive on Taliban and al-Qaida leaders. Morrell said it’s too soon to tell if these activities will prove to be game-changers. But he said there’s hope among the Pakistanis that the dynamics are beginning to change in their country, as in Afghanistan, to favor the people rather than the Taliban.

    “We are hopeful that our combined efforts on both sides of the border will undermine the confidence and the capability of the Afghan Taliban and of the Pakistan Taliban,” Morrell said, with more of their members laying down their weapons and reintegrating into society.

    The key, he said, is to reverse the downward slide that had become apparent in both countries to put the momentum with their governments and pressure the enemy to want to rejoin society.

    While not addressing specific reports of high-value targets the Pakistanis have captured or killed, Morrell praised the ongoing effort and reiterated U.S. support to help as needed.

    “We are here to help them in any way they are comfortable as they continue to pursue this enemy that’s a threat not just to us and/or efforts in Afghanistan, but obviously to the Pakistani people as well,” he said.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2010/02/mil-100225-afps03.htm

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  Viktor on Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:17 am

    Like every other major offensive it will end up with bunch of dead taliban witch changes nothing.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  lulldapull on Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:50 pm

    Viktor wrote:Like every other major offensive it will end up with bunch of dead taliban witch changes nothing.

    You forgot to mention that it also ends up with a bunch of dead NATO troops and assorted mercenaries.

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    US deploys 'game-changer' weapon to Afghanistan

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:33 pm

    ref:US deploys 'game-changer' weapon to Afghanistan - Telegraph
    US deploys 'game-changer' weapon to Afghanistan



    It looks and acts like something best left in the hands of Sylvester Stallone's "Rambo," but this latest dream weapon is real – and the US Army sees it becoming the Taliban's worst nightmare.

    The XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System has now been deployed to US units on the battlefields of Afghanistan Photo: AFP/GETTY
    12:02AM GMT 03 Dec 2010


    The Pentagon has rolled out prototypes of its first-ever programmable "smart" grenade launcher, a shoulder-fired weapon that uses microchipped ammunition to target and kill the enemy, even when the enemy is hidden behind walls or other cover.

    After years of development, the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System, about the size of a regular rifle, has now been deployed to US units on the battlefields of Afghanistan, where the Army expects it to be a "game-changer" [in its counter-insurgency operations.

    "For well over a week, it's been actively on patrols, and in various combat outposts in areas that are hot," said Lieutenant Colonel Chris Lehner, program manager for the XM25.

    The gun fires 25mm air-bursting shells up to 2,300 feet, well past the range of most rifles used by today's soldiers, and programs them to explode at a precise distance, allowing troops to neutralise insurgents hiding behind walls, rocks or trenches or inside buildings.
    "This is the first time we're putting smart technology into the hands of the individual soldier," Lt Col Lehner told AFP in a telephone interview.

    "It's giving them the edge," he said, in the harsh Afghan landscape where Islamist extremists have vexed US troops using centuries-old techniques of popping up from behind cover to engage.
    "You get behind something when someone is shooting at you, and that sort of cover has protected people for thousands of years," Lt Col Lehner said.



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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:00 am

    Guess that's why the SCAR and XM8 got canceled. But oh well, I was reading about this little weapon when I was younger and went to the library to read books about this kinda stuff, good to know it's finally being deployed.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:13 am

    Game changer?

    Really?

    It is just a shoulder fired grenade launcher with a grenade with a timed fuse to make it air burst.

    The soviets had 40mm under barrel rifle grenades that also air burst and while they were popular they were hardly a game changer.

    BTW 2,300ft is about 750m which is not outside 50 cal or PKM range.

    I assume the Muj still have all those .50 cal rifles the US gave to them to deal with helos in the 1980s.

    Of course I will be interested to see how they justify this weapon, the automatic grenade launchers like the AGS-30 and Mk.19 are claimed to be crew served weapons that are used against area targets but this weapon is clearly an individuals weapon and likely to be used directly against other individuals using HE ammo.
    This is banned by the Hague convention.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:34 am

    @Garry
    Its innovative in the essence that the airbursting mechanism is somewht new & unique.
    If I recall in discovery channel it was told that airbursting mechanism is totally new. The revolving of the projectile is calibrated against its cutting of the earths magnetic field lines, along the path; which is( intersections b/w projectile rev. & magnetic line) then calibrated against the distance the projectile has to travel till airbursting.


    & by the way you can see through wall as well with this scifi tool

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:51 am

    GarryB wrote:Game changer?

    Really?

    It is just a shoulder fired grenade launcher with a grenade with a timed fuse to make it air burst.

    The soviets had 40mm under barrel rifle grenades that also air burst and while they were popular they were hardly a game changer.

    BTW 2,300ft is about 750m which is not outside 50 cal or PKM range.

    I assume the Muj still have all those .50 cal rifles the US gave to them to deal with helos in the 1980s.

    Of course I will be interested to see how they justify this weapon, the automatic grenade launchers like the AGS-30 and Mk.19 are claimed to be crew served weapons that are used against area targets but this weapon is clearly an individuals weapon and likely to be used directly against other individuals using HE ammo.
    This is banned by the Hague convention.

    The difference is that the regular 40 mm that air burst air burst by bouncing 1.5 meters. This thing allows you to program where it'll air burst, so you can just aim it like a regular rifle, shoot the grenade, and it'll air burst somewhere to the flank of the target.

    And if they still have those .50 cal rifles, they aren't really using them well, we've wacked a few with that boy over there and they haven't wacked us back with the same rifle.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:29 am

    Its innovative in the essence that the airbursting mechanism is somewht new & unique.

    No it isn't.

    Soviet tanks have been simulating airbursts with standard HE frag shells with the fuses set to delay and firing them at a shallow angle to the ground so they bounce up before detonating.
    There were two standard grenades for the GP-25 underbarrel grenade launcher used by the Soviets in the 1980s and since, one was a standard impact grenade and the other had a small charge to blow the grenade up into the air before the main charge detonated.
    It was in mass production and did not require a complex and expensive computer system and chip etc.

    If I recall in discovery channel it was told that airbursting mechanism is totally new. The revolving of the projectile is calibrated against its cutting of the earths magnetic field lines, along the path; which is( intersections b/w projectile rev. & magnetic line) then calibrated against the distance the projectile has to travel till airbursting.

    That earth magnetic field line stuff is rubbish. All it does is once the distance to the target has been determined by laser range finder it can simply work out based on the muzzle velocity and rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel how many times the grenade will spin before it reaches the target.

    The difference is that the regular 40 mm that air burst air burst by bouncing 1.5 meters. This thing allows you to program where it'll air burst, so you can just aim it like a regular rifle, shoot the grenade, and it'll air burst somewhere to the flank of the target.

    Having the grenade explode at head height is the best height to set it for. This isn't a 155mm shell that is more effective at 10m because the blast and frag radius is extended.

    It also relies on the fact that the enemy will not have any top cover... it wont be long before they start preparing their firing positions better that have some top cover as well as cover to the front.

    It is a bit like issuing US troops with Javelin when all they need are RPGs. It seems money is no object.
    The irony is that instead of firing Javelins and these new grenades at the enemy if you threw the cash that these weapons cost you could buy the enemy instead of killing them.


    And if they still have those .50 cal rifles, they aren't really using them well, we've wacked a few with that boy over there and they haven't wacked us back with the same rifle.

    They are probably in someones collection by now... even if they had them now they wouldn't have ammo of sniper quality so they wouldn't be hitting anything anyway.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:00 am

    No it isn't.

    Soviet tanks have been simulating airbursts with standard HE frag shells with the fuses set to delay and firing them at a shallow angle to the ground so they bounce up before detonating.
    There were two standard grenades for the GP-25 underbarrel grenade launcher used by the Soviets in the 1980s and since, one was a standard impact grenade and the other had a small charge to blow the grenade up into the air before the main charge detonated.
    It was in mass production and did not require a complex and expensive computer system and chip etc.

    Ainet fuse setting system? This thing is basically that but you won't need a tank. You can program the grenade to air burst pretty much anywhere in that 700 meter range. Again, difference between this and the GP-25 bouncing grenade is that you can't tell the grenade when to blow up, you can only aim it and wherever it lands, it bounces and blows up. This system effectively creates a 40 mm Sniper rifle in a sense.

    The difference is that the regular 40 mm that air burst air burst by bouncing 1.5 meters. This thing allows you to program where it'll air burst, so you can just aim it like a regular rifle, shoot the grenade, and it'll air burst somewhere to the flank of the target.

    Having the grenade explode at head height is the best height to set it for. This isn't a 155mm shell that is more effective at 10m because the blast and frag radius is extended.

    It also relies on the fact that the enemy will not have any top cover... it wont be long before they start preparing their firing positions better that have some top cover as well as cover to the front.

    It is a bit like issuing US troops with Javelin when all they need are RPGs. It seems money is no object.
    The irony is that instead of firing Javelins and these new grenades at the enemy if you threw the cash that these weapons cost you could buy the enemy instead of killing them.

    Note that I said Flank, you can program it to explode to the side of your target, or hell, beneath it. The difference with this and the RPG is that you can't air burst it. Either you hit or you miss, with this, you just need to sight your target, let the ballistic computer do it's calculations, and let it rip. Grenade goes towards target, air bursts at it and neutralizes it.

    Hell, they don't need top cover, they still need a hole or opening to shoot out of. That basically means we can program the grenade to blow up inside the building, still killing the guy. Besides, with electronics costing so little these days, these things only get cheaper.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:16 am

    nothing will change the war in afghanistan ..!!
    americans already lost it,
    they have to take take army out of there,before they finished Rolling Eyes

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:49 am

    @GarryB
    I knw its a blog; but sure it mentions the same source "Discovery Channel" thats make it quiet genuine from my side


    The US army has developed the XM25 rifle to give its troops an alternative to calling in artillery fire or air strikes when an enemy has taken cover and can't be targeted by direct fire.The rifle's gunsight uses a laser rangefinder to calculate the exact distance to the obstruction. The soldier can then add or subtract up to 3 metres from that distance to enable the bullets to clear the barrier and explode above or beside the target (see zoomimg).

    As the 25-millimetre round is fired, the gunsight sends a radio signal to a chip inside the bullet, telling it the precise distance to the target. A spiral groove inside the barrel makes the bullet rotate as it travels, and as it also contains a magnetic transducer, this rotation through the Earth's magnetic field generates an alternating current. A patent granted to the bullet's maker, Alliant Techsystems, reveals that the chip uses fluctuations in this current to count each revolution and, as it knows the distance covered in one spin, it can calculate how far it has travelled
    http://www.zgeek.com/showthread.php/83700-Real-life-Lawgiver-created.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:43 pm

    I guess every new US weapon in Iraq or Afganistan or where ever is a game changer althrow it basicly changes nothing.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:52 pm

    They also deployed Abrams and called that a gamechanger also. Contridacting themselves? Suspect

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:47 am

    Ainet fuse setting system? This thing is basically that but you won't need a tank.

    No, not Aniet, I am talking about standard 125mm HE Frag rounds. As I have explained elsewhere on this site the fuse can be set open or closed and it can be fired with the safety cap on or off. When firing HE shells at targets on snow or swampy soft mud then you set the fuse open with the safety cap off which makes it very sensitive so any impact will set it off including rain. With the safety cap on but the fuse set open the round will explode on impact. What I am talking about is using a dumb cheap shell with a standard fuse and leaving the safety cap on and the fuse set closed which delays the detonation of the shell a few mili seconds so the gunner aims low at the ground in front of the target area and the shell hits the ground at a very shallow angle and bounces up into the air while the delay means the shell doesn't explode in the ground but in the air. It means a much more efficient fragmentation pattern.

    With the 40mm grenade it is the same a simple and cheap method to get an air burst round. Not as high tech as this new US weapon, but cheap and in mass production for over 20 years.

    This system effectively creates a 40 mm Sniper rifle in a sense.

    An enormously expensive sniper rifle. For a fraction of the cost they could have bought a real 30 cal sniper rifle with computer aiming assistance plus a 40mm automatic grenade launcher that could be mounted in the trailer of a quad bike.
    Both of these added to a foot patrol would be much more useful.

    Note this weapons main claim to fame is that it can hit targets behind cover. Its problem is finding targets firing from behind cover in the first place and determining if they are bad guys, or a group of women and children hiding from the fighting.

    Note that I said Flank, you can program it to explode to the side of your target, or hell, beneath it. The difference with this and the RPG is that you can't air burst it.

    The super feature of the system is to allow the engagement of targets behind cover that were obviously protected from the front but not the top.
    An RPG with a Thermobaric round will demolish most front cover and turn that cover into shrapnel to kill those directly behind it in the same way that a Javelin would normally be used to hit such a hard target. This new weapon of new calibre and new ammo is supposed to bypass the front cover and come in from above to attack the target from a vulnerable direction.

    What I am saying is that any auto grenade launcher with its low velocity grenades will land rounds coming in fairly steeply that attack from above and rifle mounted 40mm grenades used in the early 1980s could airburst such targets for a fraction of the cost. Obviously without the laser rangefinder and ballistic computer and advanced fuse system it will not be as accurate or as flexible but really this is just a high tech way of doing something that can already be done.

    Hell, they don't need top cover, they still need a hole or opening to shoot out of. That basically means we can program the grenade to blow up inside the building, still killing the guy. Besides, with electronics costing so little these days, these things only get cheaper.

    The RPO-A had a precursor charge to blow a hole in cover and blow thermobaric explosive into the cavity and then detonate it. And it could do it almost 30 years ago fairly cheaply.

    I knw its a blog; but sure it mentions the same source "Discovery Channel" thats make it quiet genuine from my side

    So it basically uses the relatively fixed magnetic field as a reference so that it knows what a complete revolution is so it can work out how far it has travelled with each complete rotation. Makes sense, but wonder how accurate it will be on a real battlefield with all sorts of large lumps of metal and other things effecting the magnetic field.
    Perhaps the Taleban will start setting up electric fences all over the place... Twisted Evil

    They also deployed Abrams and called that a gamechanger also. Contridacting themselves?

    Western media seem to have a fixation on "super weapons".

    Even when the Soviets were there they credited the Muj with calling all sorts of Soviet weapons as "the devils chariot". From the Mi-24, the Su-25, and even the ZSU-23-4 in the direct fire support role.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:10 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Ainet fuse setting system? This thing is basically that but you won't need a tank.

    No, not Aniet, I am talking about standard 125mm HE Frag rounds. As I have explained elsewhere on this site the fuse can be set open or closed and it can be fired with the safety cap on or off. When firing HE shells at targets on snow or swampy soft mud then you set the fuse open with the safety cap off which makes it very sensitive so any impact will set it off including rain. With the safety cap on but the fuse set open the round will explode on impact. What I am talking about is using a dumb cheap shell with a standard fuse and leaving the safety cap on and the fuse set closed which delays the detonation of the shell a few mili seconds so the gunner aims low at the ground in front of the target area and the shell hits the ground at a very shallow angle and bounces up into the air while the delay means the shell doesn't explode in the ground but in the air. It means a much more efficient fragmentation pattern.

    With the 40mm grenade it is the same a simple and cheap method to get an air burst round. Not as high tech as this new US weapon, but cheap and in mass production for over 20 years.

    Ainet fuse setting is for standard 125 mm HE-Frag rounds.

    The problem with your simple solution is that method does not allow the "long range" firing of the weapon, as I recall the maximum range for a Soviet 40 mm is about 300-400 meters, XM-25 does up to 750 and still can kill a room of enemies.

    This system effectively creates a 40 mm Sniper rifle in a sense.

    An enormously expensive sniper rifle. For a fraction of the cost they could have bought a real 30 cal sniper rifle with computer aiming assistance plus a 40mm automatic grenade launcher that could be mounted in the trailer of a quad bike.
    Both of these added to a foot patrol would be much more useful.

    Note this weapons main claim to fame is that it can hit targets behind cover. Its problem is finding targets firing from behind cover in the first place and determining if they are bad guys, or a group of women and children hiding from the fighting.

    It costs only $25,000 USD. A 7.62 is useless if they're behind cover and you don't know exactly where behind cover they are. This allows you to basically put a grenade into their room from over 750 m away, and you don't need to know exactly where they are in the room, it's a Frag grenade, everything's gonna get hit. So, technically speaking, it's also more accurate and deadly.

    Note that I said Flank, you can program it to explode to the side of your target, or hell, beneath it. The difference with this and the RPG is that you can't air burst it.

    The super feature of the system is to allow the engagement of targets behind cover that were obviously protected from the front but not the top.
    An RPG with a Thermobaric round will demolish most front cover and turn that cover into shrapnel to kill those directly behind it in the same way that a Javelin would normally be used to hit such a hard target. This new weapon of new calibre and new ammo is supposed to bypass the front cover and come in from above to attack the target from a vulnerable direction.

    What I am saying is that any auto grenade launcher with its low velocity grenades will land rounds coming in fairly steeply that attack from above and rifle mounted 40mm grenades used in the early 1980s could airburst such targets for a fraction of the cost. Obviously without the laser rangefinder and ballistic computer and advanced fuse system it will not be as accurate or as flexible but really this is just a high tech way of doing something that can already be done.

    Uh, but your method won't work because they'd have a roof over their heads. A TGB-7V will work but you can't really use a RPG for all your AP purposes. XM-25 allows you to circumvent your enemy's cover and fill them with shrapnel. Hell, I heard there's a thermobaric grenade in development for the XM-25.

    Hell, they don't need top cover, they still need a hole or opening to shoot out of. That basically means we can program the grenade to blow up inside the building, still killing the guy. Besides, with electronics costing so little these days, these things only get cheaper.

    The RPO-A had a precursor charge to blow a hole in cover and blow thermobaric explosive into the cavity and then detonate it. And it could do it almost 30 years ago fairly cheaply.

    That's not the RPO-A genius, that's the RMG.

    http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/rmg-e.html

    And no, how much ammo do you have for a general RPG with you? 3? Maybe 5 if you have another guy? This thing, you can have a magazine full of air bursting grenades and you can reload it in about the same amount of time it takes to reload a regular AK or AR. It's also more precise, as just simply making a big hole then making a big boom isn't what this does, it goes through small holes and makes a big boom, effectively reducing the weight in munitions and thus creating a larger ammunition carrying capacity.

    They also deployed Abrams and called that a gamechanger also. Contridacting themselves?

    Western media seem to have a fixation on "super weapons".

    Even when the Soviets were there they credited the Muj with calling all sorts of Soviet weapons as "the devils chariot". From the Mi-24, the Su-25, and even the ZSU-23-4 in the direct fire support role.

    At least Russian media are doing the same thing russia

    See RIAN and their coverage of "game changing" equipment such as the Mi-28N.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:35 am

    Another thing this toy has in favour of is its ability to perform job without that nasty WOOSHING sound (~normally is associated with those RPGs) & the muzzle flash!! Which make its quiet difficult to detect by enemy when operated in dark!!

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:55 am

    Ainet fuse setting is for standard 125 mm HE-Frag rounds.

    Ainet is a fuse system, it uses any 125mm shell that can be fitted with a fuse (there is the standard HE FRAG shell and a new shell designed to direct fragments forward as well as sideways to take advantage of Ainet fuse type systems).
    Ainet consists of an electronic fuse that is fitted to the shells before they are placed in the autoloader of the tank, and an automatic fuse setting system that is between the autoloader and the gun breach. The gunner lases the target to determine range and the gunner can manually add or deduct from that range by pushing some buttons... so you can lase the front of a building and then add 3m worth of flight time to the fuse setting. He then loads the round where the round passes the fuse setter the time is set and when the round is fired the fuse detonates the round at the specific range.

    The trick of setting the fuse to delay and bouncing the rounds into the air for an airburst has been done since WWII and is not new.

    The problem with your simple solution is that method does not allow the "long range" firing of the weapon, as I recall the maximum range for a Soviet 40 mm is about 300-400 meters, XM-25 does up to 750 and still can kill a room of enemies.

    The 40mm bounding grenade has a small bounding charge to blow it into the air and it will work right up to its max operating range of about 450m. The Russians have a 40mm automatic grenade launcher called BALKAN that has a range of 2,500m with grenades larger and heavier than the 40mm under barrel grenades used in the GP series launchers. The 30mm AGS-17 and AGS-30 can both now use improved grenades with ranges of 2.2km. The AGS-30 weighs 16kgs including the tripod mount.
    The Arbalet experimental shoulder fired grenade launcher has a drum mag that holds 10 x 30mm rounds and it can fire the 2.2km ranged grenades too.

    It costs only $25,000 USD. A 7.62 is useless if they're behind cover and you don't know exactly where behind cover they are. This allows you to basically put a grenade into their room from over 750 m away, and you don't need to know exactly where they are in the room, it's a Frag grenade, everything's gonna get hit. So, technically speaking, it's also more accurate and deadly.

    The problem is that an afghan out in the open at 750m is hard enough to ID as good guy or bad guy. Knowing what is behind cover 750m away is going to be rather tricky.

    Being explosive the 25mm shells will kill or injure most things near the target too... including bystanders. A 7.62mm round will kill what you are aiming for and nothing else.

    The issue in Afghanistan is that the enemy have realised that most of the western foot patrols have 5.56mm rifles which are ineffective beyond about 400m, so they are using SVDs and PKMs and RPGs and the like and opening fire from 700m or more so that they can fire on a patrol with a chance of inflicting casualties with a good chance of running away and not getting effective fire brought down on them.

    Considering foot patrols already had 30 cal rifles and GPMGs for fire support I really don't think this grenade launcher will be adding too much to the equation. It would make more sense just to carry more 30 cal rifles for engaging targets at longer ranges and perhaps add light vehicle support with a light cannon like a Stryker.

    Uh, but your method won't work because they'd have a roof over their heads.

    The first few rounds will get rid of any top cover and certainly deter return fire while the rest of the foot patrol either move forward or withdraw depending on the situation.

    A TGB-7V will work but you can't really use a RPG for all your AP purposes. XM-25 allows you to circumvent your enemy's cover and fill them with shrapnel. Hell, I heard there's a thermobaric grenade in development for the XM-25.

    Four or five hits with a 25mm grenade are not the same as a single hit from a 105mm calibre thermobaric RPG round with several kgs of material in it.
    The whole purpose of the design of the RPG is to deal with hard points at 400-500m range. The sort of things the British used the Milan for in the Falklands and the US used the Javelin for in Afghanistan and Iraq. The RPG-7 is much cheaper and easier to use and for most of the time that is what it is issued for in the absence of enemy armour.

    That's not the RPO-A genius, that's the RMG.

    Excuse me, but the first RPO you had to fire in through windows... the current models have precursor charges to make holes in walls and the main charge is blown into the cavity and detonated.

    And no, how much ammo do you have for a general RPG with you? 3? Maybe 5 if you have another guy?

    Every man in the unit can carry spare rockets and also carry the disposable equivelents themselves like the RPG-22 et al.

    Needless to say a single heavy rocket can take out a small building that would require several hits from this new weapon.

    This thing, you can have a magazine full of air bursting grenades and you can reload it in about the same amount of time it takes to reload a regular AK or AR.

    Once you have fired all your grenades you are probably armed with a pistol.

    It's also more precise, as just simply making a big hole then making a big boom isn't what this does, it goes through small holes and makes a big boom, effectively reducing the weight in munitions and thus creating a larger ammunition carrying capacity.

    Against Taleban it will be quite effective, but against a modern army with flak jackets its effect will be greatly diminished.

    See RIAN and their coverage of "game changing" equipment such as the Mi-28N.

    Yes, they are picking up the wests bad habits.

    Another thing this toy has in favour of is its ability to perform job without that nasty WOOSHING sound (~normally is associated with those RPGs) & the muzzle flash!! Which make its quiet difficult to detect by enemy when operated in dark!!

    This would be useful on the offense, but the article describes this weapon as the solution to the current problem of the taleban ambushing from long range and then leaving the area before air power can arrive. As such the best defence from this system is simply to target the soldiers carrying it at the start of the ambush. No doubt if they had any brains they would look at the foot patrol before they decided to open fire and any designated marksman with a 30 cal rifle and any soldier carrying a GPMG would be targetted. Well if this weapon is as effective as it is suggested I would expect the Taleban to simply target the operators of this weapon too... and perhaps start an ambush with an IED attack and in the ensuing chaos fire at the patrol from long range and then leave the area before the victim of the ambush can work out what just happened and before air power can arrive.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:35 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Ainet fuse setting is for standard 125 mm HE-Frag rounds.

    Ainet is a fuse system, it uses any 125mm shell that can be fitted with a fuse (there is the standard HE FRAG shell and a new shell designed to direct fragments forward as well as sideways to take advantage of Ainet fuse type systems).
    Ainet consists of an electronic fuse that is fitted to the shells before they are placed in the autoloader of the tank, and an automatic fuse setting system that is between the autoloader and the gun breach. The gunner lases the target to determine range and the gunner can manually add or deduct from that range by pushing some buttons... so you can lase the front of a building and then add 3m worth of flight time to the fuse setting. He then loads the round where the round passes the fuse setter the time is set and when the round is fired the fuse detonates the round at the specific range.

    The trick of setting the fuse to delay and bouncing the rounds into the air for an airburst has been done since WWII and is not new.

    Of course it's not new, but this is one of the first times that such a fuse setting system has been Modernized and applied to a small package. Gun weighs the same as an AK!

    The problem with your simple solution is that method does not allow the "long range" firing of the weapon, as I recall the maximum range for a Soviet 40 mm is about 300-400 meters, XM-25 does up to 750 and still can kill a room of enemies.

    The 40mm bounding grenade has a small bounding charge to blow it into the air and it will work right up to its max operating range of about 450m. The Russians have a 40mm automatic grenade launcher called BALKAN that has a range of 2,500m with grenades larger and heavier than the 40mm under barrel grenades used in the GP series launchers. The 30mm AGS-17 and AGS-30 can both now use improved grenades with ranges of 2.2km. The AGS-30 weighs 16kgs including the tripod mount.
    The Arbalet experimental shoulder fired grenade launcher has a drum mag that holds 10 x 30mm rounds and it can fire the 2.2km ranged grenades too.

    Again, another problem, standard 40 mm underbarrel grenade launchers, you have to launch it with a huge ballistic trajectory. It's very difficult to actually land a grenade inside a room. With this, it has an increased muzzle velocity, thus range and has a flatter ballistic trajectory. That means you can aim, point, calculate and shoot, grenade doesn't need to bounce it just knows when to detonate.

    We have a 40 mm AGL too. Problem is that it weighs a couple dozen kilos. This thing weighs the same as an AK-47. Also, with a 30 mm or 40 mm AGL, you can't accurately land grenades inside a room, you can demolish the room, but it'll take you a salvo of grenades, which would mean excessive damage to nearby buildings. With this, you just need to put 1 grenade inside the room and the enemy's done for, no need for Grenade spam.

    It costs only $25,000 USD. A 7.62 is useless if they're behind cover and you don't know exactly where behind cover they are. This allows you to basically put a grenade into their room from over 750 m away, and you don't need to know exactly where they are in the room, it's a Frag grenade, everything's gonna get hit. So, technically speaking, it's also more accurate and deadly.

    The problem is that an afghan out in the open at 750m is hard enough to ID as good guy or bad guy. Knowing what is behind cover 750m away is going to be rather tricky.

    Being explosive the 25mm shells will kill or injure most things near the target too... including bystanders. A 7.62mm round will kill what you are aiming for and nothing else.

    The issue in Afghanistan is that the enemy have realised that most of the western foot patrols have 5.56mm rifles which are ineffective beyond about 400m, so they are using SVDs and PKMs and RPGs and the like and opening fire from 700m or more so that they can fire on a patrol with a chance of inflicting casualties with a good chance of running away and not getting effective fire brought down on them.

    Considering foot patrols already had 30 cal rifles and GPMGs for fire support I really don't think this grenade launcher will be adding too much to the equation. It would make more sense just to carry more 30 cal rifles for engaging targets at longer ranges and perhaps add light vehicle support with a light cannon like a Stryker.

    It has a x4 Thermal sight or a x2 Optic sight. Marines are trained to hit a car sized object from 500 meters away with Iron sights. Identifying an enemy (which basically means a guy with a weapon) from 750 is going to be fine.

    Sure, a 7.62 is fine for Target elimination, but this is not it's intended role. No one is saying we're going to use a 25 mm grenade to do all of our AP work, there will be times when absolute precision is required, in which case a M24 can be called in. But this is extremely effective in an Urban combat scenario, where say, a guy with a Pecheneg is suppressing your Squad, you just need a guy to land one Grenade in his room with the XM-25 and he's dead.

    Uh, but your method won't work because they'd have a roof over their heads.

    The first few rounds will get rid of any top cover and certainly deter return fire while the rest of the foot patrol either move forward or withdraw depending on the situation.

    That's a waste of ammunition and it'll cause collateral damage. One grenade in the room, neutralized targets.

    A TGB-7V will work but you can't really use a RPG for all your AP purposes. XM-25 allows you to circumvent your enemy's cover and fill them with shrapnel. Hell, I heard there's a thermobaric grenade in development for the XM-25.

    Four or five hits with a 25mm grenade are not the same as a single hit from a 105mm calibre thermobaric RPG round with several kgs of material in it.
    The whole purpose of the design of the RPG is to deal with hard points at 400-500m range. The sort of things the British used the Milan for in the Falklands and the US used the Javelin for in Afghanistan and Iraq. The RPG-7 is much cheaper and easier to use and for most of the time that is what it is issued for in the absence of enemy armour.

    But do you know how much a RPG weighs? And it's ammo? We're not exactly talking a professional army here. They don't wear flak vests as far as I know, a 25 mm grenade will do fine.

    That's not the RPO-A genius, that's the RMG.

    Excuse me, but the first RPO you had to fire in through windows... the current models have precursor charges to make holes in walls and the main charge is blown into the cavity and detonated.

    Oh do excuse me, I've just never read any literature on that, please provide a source?

    And no, how much ammo do you have for a general RPG with you? 3? Maybe 5 if you have another guy?

    Every man in the unit can carry spare rockets and also carry the disposable equivelents themselves like the RPG-22 et al.

    Needless to say a single heavy rocket can take out a small building that would require several hits from this new weapon.

    But Terrorists nowadays have a habit of going inside populated homes and shoot from the top floor. Taking down the house causes collateral damage. Taking out the room doesn't. Everyone carrying a RPG in a squad gives you 10 shots at best. You have 5 grenades per magazine, so obviously you have enough ammunition.

    This thing, you can have a magazine full of air bursting grenades and you can reload it in about the same amount of time it takes to reload a regular AK or AR.

    Once you have fired all your grenades you are probably armed with a pistol.

    Problem? I'll admit that this thing isn't as game changing as they advertise it but it does change a lot. You don't have to use heavy ammunition to displace a hidden enemy. You don't have to use a lot of heavy ammunition to displace him. So from now on, instead of calling for Tank support or PGM mission, all you need is to have you Grenadier holding this and he can eliminate anybody who's camping from a concealed position.

    It's also more precise, as just simply making a big hole then making a big boom isn't what this does, it goes through small holes and makes a big boom, effectively reducing the weight in munitions and thus creating a larger ammunition carrying capacity.

    Against Taleban it will be quite effective, but against a modern army with flak jackets its effect will be greatly diminished.

    If you haven't noticed, we're not planning on fighting symmetrical warfare.

    See RIAN and their coverage of "game changing" equipment such as the Mi-28N.

    Yes, they are picking up the wests bad habits.

    And they're a State News Agency too! Says a lot about Russia's FA direction.

    Another thing this toy has in favour of is its ability to perform job without that nasty WOOSHING sound (~normally is associated with those RPGs) & the muzzle flash!! Which make its quiet difficult to detect by enemy when operated in dark!!

    This would be useful on the offense, but the article describes this weapon as the solution to the current problem of the taleban ambushing from long range and then leaving the area before air power can arrive. As such the best defence from this system is simply to target the soldiers carrying it at the start of the ambush. No doubt if they had any brains they would look at the foot patrol before they decided to open fire and any designated marksman with a 30 cal rifle and any soldier carrying a GPMG would be targetted. Well if this weapon is as effective as it is suggested I would expect the Taleban to simply target the operators of this weapon too... and perhaps start an ambush with an IED attack and in the ensuing chaos fire at the patrol from long range and then leave the area before the victim of the ambush can work out what just happened and before air power can arrive.

    Of course, that doesn't work if there's more than 1!

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:56 am

    Of course it's not new, but this is one of the first times that such a fuse setting system has been Modernized and applied to a small package. Gun weighs the same as an AK!

    The XM25 weighs over 5kgs empty and its ammo will not weigh nothing.
    Hardly comparable with an AK... or even an SVD.

    Again, another problem, standard 40 mm underbarrel grenade launchers, you have to launch it with a huge ballistic trajectory. It's very difficult to actually land a grenade inside a room.

    No you don't. Current GP launchers have two range scales on them... red and white for indirect and direct fire. In fact with practise you can load one round (they are muzzle loaded and have no shell case to remove like a mortar shell) and aim and fire with the red scale for range and then adjust the sight to the same distance in the white direct fire scale and reload another round while counting. When you count (in seconds) to about 9 or 12 seconds (can't remember which) you then fire a second round and both rounds will land on target at roughly the same time because of the different flight times.

    That means you can aim, point, calculate and shoot, grenade doesn't need to bounce it just knows when to detonate.

    Very expensive toys considering by the time you know which room to destroy you could probably have used an RPG of some sort.

    We have a 40 mm AGL too. Problem is that it weighs a couple dozen kilos. This thing weighs the same as an AK-47.

    The basic XM25 weighs more than a loaded AK and its grenade weight will likely make it triple the weight or more.

    The MM-1 is actually a very similar weight at about 5.7 kgs empty and able to hold 12 rounds ready to fire.

    Also, with a 30 mm or 40 mm AGL, you can't accurately land grenades inside a room, you can demolish the room, but it'll take you a salvo of grenades, which would mean excessive damage to nearby buildings. With this, you just need to put 1 grenade inside the room and the enemy's done for, no need for Grenade spam.

    This XM-25 could kill flies at 750m... what chance is there on a real battlefield that you will be able to spot flies at 750m?

    To take out a room at that range a Russian soldier would likely use a Metis-M (AT-13) guided missile with a range of 2km fitted with a conventional HE warhead.

    It has a x4 Thermal sight or a x2 Optic sight.

    So zero chance to properly ID a man sized target at 750m. A thermal sight is great for night and all weather use, but useless for identification of people... and x2 optics will not help.
    And this is people out in the open.

    Identifying an enemy (which basically means a guy with a weapon) from 750 is going to be fine.

    90% of the population in Afghanistan is armed. You start killing anyone with a gun and you might as well leave the country now and save a bit of time.

    But this is extremely effective in an Urban combat scenario, where say, a guy with a Pecheneg is suppressing your Squad, you just need a guy to land one Grenade in his room with the XM-25 and he's dead.

    On paper it should be effective. In practise unless the target has a muzzle flash the size of a 2ltr coke bottle and fires continuously with tracer ammo showing where he is I really think you will have problem locating him accurately while you are under fire. Remember this weapon determines range but after traveling 750m a cross wind could easily shift the grenade several metres to one side or another... these rounds are not guided like an ATGM like METIS-M is.

    That's a waste of ammunition and it'll cause collateral damage. One grenade in the room, neutralized targets.

    You are talking about firing explosive grenades 750m you can't care about collateral damage. Otherwise you should be talking about a 50 cal rifle to return fire and hit targets behind front cover Save money on the fused rounds and keep the laser range finder and ballistic computer.

    But do you know how much a RPG weighs? And it's ammo?

    They are carried in Russian patrols anyway, plus light disposable rockets like RPG-22. When there is little enemy armour then Anti personel rockets can be carried in fairly large numbers including the large calibre thermobaric rounds and the 40mm anti personel rockets which can be carried in very large numbers BTW.

    We're not exactly talking a professional army here. They don't wear flak vests as far as I know, a 25 mm grenade will do fine.

    Eventually the Afghan government forces are going to start getting issued with at the very least flak jackets... if not bullet proof vests.

    So, bottom line is that I've seen a lot of numbers thrown at me, 600 mm from Rosonboronexport, 750 mm from Wikipedia and other sources, and 850 mm from combat performance. Which one is it?

    It can be all three. You can't just look at where a rocket hit to determine performance because the angle of impact is very important in determining penetration.

    Also the protection levels are described as effective protection levels, which also assumes a specific angle of impact.

    Another factor is that penetration figures usually assume thicknesses of penetration that still allows for damage done to the interior.

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:10 am

    Oh do excuse me, I've just never read any literature on that, please provide a source?

    My mistake, they don't use a precursor charge, they have an advanced fusing system.

    This system... also used on the RMG determines the type of target it has hit. If it hits something solid and unyielding that it wont penetrate it detonates on impact. If it hits something like a wall it delays the detonation till it has broken through and penetrated into the room behind.

    The version is called Varna in Russian service in 2005 or SHMEL-M by the company that makes it. (KBP).

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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:09 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Of course it's not new, but this is one of the first times that such a fuse setting system has been Modernized and applied to a small package. Gun weighs the same as an AK!

    The XM25 weighs over 5kgs empty and its ammo will not weigh nothing.
    Hardly comparable with an AK... or even an SVD.

    Well, can you think of a Grenade sniper rifle that weighs less?

    Again, another problem, standard 40 mm underbarrel grenade launchers, you have to launch it with a huge ballistic trajectory. It's very difficult to actually land a grenade inside a room.

    No you don't. Current GP launchers have two range scales on them... red and white for indirect and direct fire. In fact with practise you can load one round (they are muzzle loaded and have no shell case to remove like a mortar shell) and aim and fire with the red scale for range and then adjust the sight to the same distance in the white direct fire scale and reload another round while counting. When you count (in seconds) to about 9 or 12 seconds (can't remember which) you then fire a second round and both rounds will land on target at roughly the same time because of the different flight times.

    Uh, I highly doubt you can direct fire at 450 meters with a 40 mm grenade.

    That means you can aim, point, calculate and shoot, grenade doesn't need to bounce it just knows when to detonate.

    Very expensive toys considering by the time you know which room to destroy you could probably have used an RPG of some sort.

    We're talking rifle squads here, mobile men doing quick jobs. RPGs just level the room, this kills anyone inside while still having more ammo, better than an RPG in the AP role. Besides, it's only $25 per grenade.

    We have a 40 mm AGL too. Problem is that it weighs a couple dozen kilos. This thing weighs the same as an AK-47.

    The basic XM25 weighs more than a loaded AK and its grenade weight will likely make it triple the weight or more.

    The MM-1 is actually a very similar weight at about 5.7 kgs empty and able to hold 12 rounds ready to fire.

    These are 25 mm grenades, not as heavy as 30 or 40 mm.

    Also, with a 30 mm or 40 mm AGL, you can't accurately land grenades inside a room, you can demolish the room, but it'll take you a salvo of grenades, which would mean excessive damage to nearby buildings. With this, you just need to put 1 grenade inside the room and the enemy's done for, no need for Grenade spam.

    This XM-25 could kill flies at 750m... what chance is there on a real battlefield that you will be able to spot flies at 750m?

    To take out a room at that range a Russian soldier would likely use a Metis-M (AT-13) guided missile with a range of 2km fitted with a conventional HE warhead.

    No, it can't kill a fly but it can go inside a window of a room at 750 m. Yes, you can spot a room at 750 m, 4x magnification thermal sight standard, that means night fight capability as well. Standard marines are trained to hit a car at 500, x4 sight only helps at 750.

    Yes, yes, and how much rooms can you take out with an ATGM? 3 if you're carrying the ammo. With this, 6 per magazine.

    It has a x4 Thermal sight or a x2 Optic sight.

    So zero chance to properly ID a man sized target at 750m. A thermal sight is great for night and all weather use, but useless for identification of people... and x2 optics will not help.
    And this is people out in the open.

    No, you can identify a weapon from a Beretta to a RPG-7 with those sights. If you doubt me, talk to your Squad leader, he'll have a 10x magnification binocular ready.

    Identifying an enemy (which basically means a guy with a weapon) from 750 is going to be fine.

    90% of the population in Afghanistan is armed. You start killing anyone with a gun and you might as well leave the country now and save a bit of time.

    If they have a gun I don't know who the target is, I'm killing him. Very simple. And yes, if someone does invade the U.S. and apply that policy than I have no sympathy for 2nd Amendment followers.

    But this is extremely effective in an Urban combat scenario, where say, a guy with a Pecheneg is suppressing your Squad, you just need a guy to land one Grenade in his room with the XM-25 and he's dead.

    On paper it should be effective. In practise unless the target has a muzzle flash the size of a 2ltr coke bottle and fires continuously with tracer ammo showing where he is I really think you will have problem locating him accurately while you are under fire. Remember this weapon determines range but after traveling 750m a cross wind could easily shift the grenade several metres to one side or another... these rounds are not guided like an ATGM like METIS-M is.

    We're talking Afghanistan here, most Mujaheddin don't use muzzle suppressors.

    That's a waste of ammunition and it'll cause collateral damage. One grenade in the room, neutralized targets.

    You are talking about firing explosive grenades 750m you can't care about collateral damage. Otherwise you should be talking about a 50 cal rifle to return fire and hit targets behind front cover Save money on the fused rounds and keep the laser range finder and ballistic computer.

    When I'm talking firing explosive grenades 750 m I can in fact talk about collateral, a 25 mm grenade is not enough to blow up the room like what you're suggesting with a TBG-7V. A M82 is only effective if you know exactly where in the room the guy is or when you catch him firing out the window. Hell, we're not even talking about 750 m anymore, this thing is good against targets under 750 m.

    But do you know how much a RPG weighs? And it's ammo?

    They are carried in Russian patrols anyway, plus light disposable rockets like RPG-22. When there is little enemy armour then Anti personel rockets can be carried in fairly large numbers including the large calibre thermobaric rounds and the 40mm anti personel rockets which can be carried in very large numbers BTW.

    Lol, how large? 2 PGs for each man that's 16 RPGs total. Not a lot. 6 grenades per magazine, and presumably, lets just say for fun, 4 mags for the operator. Already, I can destroy 50% more rooms than you. RPGs are a hammer, a M40 is the scalpel, and XM25 is the knock out punch. Not accurate enough to hit a guy in the left eye from 800 meters away and not powerful enough to take down the whole house. It's a compromise, and that's what weapon designs are about.

    We're not exactly talking a professional army here. They don't wear flak vests as far as I know, a 25 mm grenade will do fine.

    Eventually the Afghan government forces are going to start getting issued with at the very least flak jackets... if not bullet proof vests.

    We're not shooting at Afghan government if you haven't noticed.

    So, bottom line is that I've seen a lot of numbers thrown at me, 600 mm from Rosonboronexport, 750 mm from Wikipedia and other sources, and 850 mm from combat performance. Which one is it?

    It can be all three. You can't just look at where a rocket hit to determine performance because the angle of impact is very important in determining penetration.

    Also the protection levels are described as effective protection levels, which also assumes a specific angle of impact.

    Another factor is that penetration figures usually assume thicknesses of penetration that still allows for damage done to the interior.

    Yes, I can. It's quite easy to factor in obliquity into RHAe calculations. 60 degrees obliquity doubles LOS protection. And yes, I do know that penetration factors are LOS, and usually involve a target at 90 degree obliquity. But I don't think Rosonboronexport lies, they usually put their figures at how many mm at a target how far away angled at how many degrees. For RPG-29, they say 600. Other places say 750. My calculations say 850. So, if you're not just going to give me a straight answer, than do not bother answering.

    GarryB
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    Re: NATO operations in Afghanistan:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:43 am

    Basic external ballistics tells me this is not a sniper rifle and anyone suggesting so works in the marketing department of the company that makes it.
    Very simply this round is filled with HE which is not very dense and certainly not very high velocity which suggests this round will be badly effected by cross wind.

    Shooting through windows at 750m sounds very optimistic.

    Uh, I highly doubt you can direct fire at 450 meters with a 40 mm grenade.

    It is like shooting at targets at 800m with an M16. On paper it is possible, in combat it never happens and even if you get the opportunity there is little point.

    450m is the ballistic max range of this weapon with the stock positioned on the ground. The red and white range scales meet at 450m. Normal target engagement range is 100-200m where the technique can be used. Targets at 400m plus are unlikely to be spotted by a grunt in the field unless they are firing tracer or the muzzle flash is visible.

    We're talking rifle squads here, mobile men doing quick jobs. RPGs just level the room, this kills anyone inside while still having more ammo, better than an RPG in the AP role. Besides, it's only $25 per grenade.

    A foot patrol consisting of a dozen men can have most of the men carrying RPG-22s which are only 3kgs each. Plus an RPG guy with a launcher... and of course on a foot patrol in an area where the target can ambush from longer range you would equip with a few extra SVDs/RPKs/PKMs too.

    I would want real confirmation of the $25 per grenade costs.

    According to this:

    http://www.atk.com/customer_solutions_missionsystems/documents/sw_iw_xm25.pdf

    The point target range is 500m and 750m is for area targets.

    I rather doubt there is much difference in weight between this 25mm round and the Soviet 30mm grenade. The whole 30mm grenade weighs 350 grams and a belt of 29 rounds in a drum with links weighs about 16kgs.


    No, it can't kill a fly but it can go inside a window of a room at 750 m. Yes, you can spot a room at 750 m, 4x magnification thermal sight standard, that means night fight capability as well. Standard marines are trained to hit a car at 500, x4 sight only helps at 750.

    See above pdf.

    Yes, yes, and how much rooms can you take out with an ATGM? 3 if you're carrying the ammo. With this, 6 per magazine.

    With METIS-M the standard load is 5 missiles with a team of 3 men. with two men carrying two missiles and one man carrying one missile and the launcher.
    Much heavier and much more cumbersome but accurate to kill rooms to 2km.

    No, you can identify a weapon from a Beretta to a RPG-7 with those sights. If you doubt me, talk to your Squad leader, he'll have a 10x magnification binocular ready.

    The AH-64D Apache has excellent all weather day night optics and cannot discriminate between a rocket launcher and a camera.

    Someone hiding in a room with the window open a crack is a very difficult target for a thermal sight because thermals can't see through glass.

    Even if you can clearly see a group 600m away all carrying Kalashnikovs how can you tell if they are Taleban or local militia?

    Usually you can only tell when they start opening fire on you.

    If they have a gun I don't know who the target is, I'm killing him. Very simple. And yes, if someone does invade the U.S. and apply that policy than I have no sympathy for 2nd Amendment followers.

    The problem there is this is a war your side started and you are supposed to be rebuilding that country. When you start opening up on anyone with a gun in a country full of guns and people trying to survive then you are not only going to make a lot of enemies very fast, you are also going to undermine any attempts to bolster the Afghan Army and Police into a viable force.

    If you have that sort of attitude then withdraw your troops and just have the B-52 as the game changer and just kill everyone.

    We're talking Afghanistan here, most Mujaheddin don't use muzzle suppressors.

    7.62mm calibre AKs don't have a noticeable muzzle flash during the day time and at night I have only seen a faint blue muzzle flash which hardly gives away my position.

    The SVD and PKM both have significant muzzle flash hiders.

    Lol, how large? 2 PGs for each man that's 16 RPGs total. Not a lot. 6 grenades per magazine, and presumably, lets just say for fun, 4 mags for the operator. Already, I can destroy 50% more rooms than you.

    That would be true only if they both had the same effect. How many rooms are you expecting the enemy to be firing from? Are you assuming the Pechenegs and SVDs in the unit will not be used? There will also likely be at least two guys in the unit with 40mm underbarrel grenade launchers plus 10 grenades each.
    Firepower is not really an issue for them.

    Not accurate enough to hit a guy in the left eye from 800 meters away and not powerful enough to take down the whole house. It's a compromise, and that's what weapon designs are about.

    If you are trying to say this is another tool for the tool box then I agree. It is the idea that somehow this weapon will make the Taleban ineffective and completely change the war that I disagree with.

    We're not shooting at Afghan government if you haven't noticed.

    When the Soviets were there in the 1980s plenty of government forces went bush and joined the Muj for a bit and when they came back they generally got back pay. I have read that the Soviet soldiers having to work with the Afghans had more respect for the abilities of the ex Muj afghan government forces than for the rest.
    None could be trusted.

    Yes, I can. It's quite easy to factor in obliquity into RHAe calculations. 60 degrees obliquity doubles LOS protection. And yes, I do know that penetration factors are LOS, and usually involve a target at 90 degree obliquity. But I don't think Rosonboronexport lies, they usually put their figures at how many mm at a target how far away angled at how many degrees. For RPG-29, they say 600. Other places say 750. My calculations say 850.

    You misunderstand what I am trying to say. When you quote real life penetrations you can't be sure what angle the rocket hit... take a vertical plate of normal rolled steel 50mm thick. Now angle that at 60 degrees and if you shoot at it and your projectile hits horizontally then the projectile is not penetrating at 90 degrees 50mm of plate. The formula is the thickness of penetration equals the plate thickness divided by the cosine of the angle of impact.
    The cosine of 60 degrees is 0.5 so the thickness to be penetrated is 100mm. Because of this the maker of the tank will not say the armour is 50mm thick they will say it is the equivelent of 100mm of armour.
    If in the real world an HEAT 40mm grenade hits the armour that is able to penetrate 50mm of steel plate but because it is a low velocity weapon that came in at an angle of incidence of 60 degrees and penetrates the armour... your estimates above would give the weapon a penetration capability of 100mm but in actual fact it was just a fortunate hit angle and the actual penetration performance is 50mm. Of course there are lots of weak spots on armour as well that might also influence penetration, like hitting a handle or wheel before it reaches the main armour.

    (I hope that is straight enough for you... Smile ) Razz

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