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    Russian Ground Forces: News #1

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:33 am

    GarryB wrote:A US national guard parade in the US would still be driving M60 tanks too no doubt... I am not sure what point you are trying to make...

    Nope. All M-60 were gone from the National Guard in the late 90s. There is a valid point about Russia'a obsolete and shrinking MBT/IFV force. Also it is highly mismanaged when you have stored BMP-2s and active BMP-1s. The "used in parallel" comeback is flawed.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:16 am

    The obsolete tank force is sure giving many a run for its money. Especially some new tank forces require more than 3 men. Laughing

    Oh, BMP 2 and 1 essentially the same for decades besides the weapon mounts.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The obsolete tank force is sure giving many a run for its money. Especially some new tank forces require more than 3 men. Laughing

    Oh, BMP 2 and 1 essentially the same for decades besides the weapon mounts.

    Not really. The BMP-2 is a newer system and a proper IFV. It has slightly newer version of the same engine (although same rating) and suspension system. And more importantly its weapon system (both cannon and ATGM-the second on some variants) is more modern and suited to current war (trying to suppress motorized/mechanized enemy and support friendly/dismounted infantry).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:21 pm

    A brand-new heavy flame-throwing system will enter service with the Russian Armed Forces in the next few years. Based on Armata and wheeled version most likely on bumerang

    Armata division would have Armata based pinochio, Boomerang division will have Boomerang based Pinochio, Kurganets division will have Kurganets based Pinochio...

    The "used in parallel" comeback is flawed.

    How is it flawed?

    There is a valid point about Russia'a obsolete and shrinking MBT/IFV force. Also it is highly mismanaged when you have stored BMP-2s and active BMP-1s.

    The Russians/Soviets have a long history of keeping top quality gear in storage and doing exercises and training on older vehicles to reduce costs and wear and tear on newer equipment. It also means using up old ammo stocks first.

    Even older vehicles are generally given upgrades so their performance is at least similar to some of the newer stuff and not totally obsolete.

    In an exercise it wont matter much if the troops are delivered by BMP-1 or BMP-2. In real combat the BMP-2 has better protection, but otherwise it is not that different... both are a new level above riding in the back of a truck.

    You can explain about the mismanagement because you have complete information about where the photo was taken and when and what resources they had to hand and which they chose to actually use.

    I would suggest the rocket fuel used in the rounds the 73mm gun of the BMP fires would be time limited and need to be used up before the 30mm cannon shells of the BMP-2.

    They made the BMP-3 in tiny numbers so the idea that they don't need the BMP-1 anymore is just absurd because as I said the heavier gun armament of the larger calibre was found to be useful so they incorporate a larger calibre weapon in the underproduced BMP-3. In absence of BMP-3s it would make sense to use BMP-1s to simulate the availability of the heavier gun during exercises. In addition to using up old ammo stocks...

    Worn out BMP-1s can be scrapped and replaced by ones from storage. Worn out BMP-3s need upgrades and overhauls which is expensive because there are too few of them in the first place.

    But what would they know about management of such things...


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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A brand-new heavy flame-throwing system will enter service with the Russian Armed Forces in the next few years. Based on Armata and wheeled version most likely on bumerang

    Armata division would have Armata based pinochio, Boomerang division will have Boomerang based Pinochio, Kurganets division will have Kurganets based Pinochio...

    The "used in parallel" comeback is flawed.

    How is it flawed?

    There is a valid point about Russia'a obsolete and shrinking MBT/IFV force. Also it is highly mismanaged when you have stored BMP-2s and active BMP-1s.

    The Russians/Soviets have a long history of keeping top quality gear in storage and doing exercises and training on older vehicles to reduce costs and wear and tear on newer equipment. It also means using up old ammo stocks first.

    Even older vehicles are generally given upgrades so their performance is at least similar to some of the newer stuff and not totally obsolete.

    In an exercise it wont matter much if the troops are delivered by BMP-1 or BMP-2. In real combat the BMP-2 has better protection, but otherwise it is not that different... both are a new level above riding in the back of a truck.

    You can explain about the mismanagement because you have complete information about where the photo was taken and when and what resources they had to hand and which they chose to actually use.

    I would suggest the rocket fuel used in the rounds the 73mm gun of the BMP fires would be time limited and need to be used up before the 30mm cannon shells of the BMP-2.

    They made the BMP-3 in tiny numbers so the idea that they don't need the BMP-1 anymore is just absurd because as I said the heavier gun armament of the larger calibre was found to be useful so they incorporate a larger calibre weapon in the underproduced BMP-3. In absence of BMP-3s it would make sense to use BMP-1s to simulate the availability of the heavier gun during exercises. In addition to using up old ammo stocks...

    Worn out BMP-1s can be scrapped and replaced by ones from storage. Worn out BMP-3s need upgrades and overhauls which is expensive because there are too few of them in the first place.

    But what would they know about management of such things...

    If you need to deploy a Far East mechanized brigade in a Central Asia hot spot or say in DPRK, those Far East units sporting the BMP-1P will feel the pain of bad management. Of course who cares about the average soldier or IFV commander.

    Let them eat cake unshaven

    There is a reason why kitting out active units with the good stuff matters.
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:23 am

    Interesting article on the use of trains to move military units.

    http://www.belvpo.com/ru/85537.html
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  littlerabbit on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:00 pm

    Considering Russian Army is getting larger (7 new divisions), I don't believe there is only 2.700 operational tanks, like few years ago...does anyone have some new assessment? Question
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  franco on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:12 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:Considering Russian Army is getting larger (7 new divisions), I don't believe there is only 2.700 operational tanks, like few years ago...does anyone have some new assessment?  Question  

    Still too much in transition, probably around 3,000. Remember that the new Divisions are being formed to various degrees from old brigades so probably not as many as you hoped.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:27 am

    I seem to remember under the CFE agreement that European Russia was allowed to have a total of 6,000 tanks, of which 2,000 or so were deployed and the remaining 4,000 were in storage at any one time.

    There were no limits on the tanks in the far east that was not considered Europe.

    These levels were said to be pretty normal for the Russian Army but there were limits to certain areas that were not imposed on any other country that signed the CFE treaty as the fear was that if the CFE treaty reduced pressure in central europe that Russia might move armour to the north and south, which would be destabilising in those areas so there was a lot of fine print regarding deployment.

    The real problem was that the Russians were the only side that actually signed the CFE treaty... the rest of NATO have not signed because they claimed peacekeeping Russian forces in South Ossetia and Nagorni Karabach violated the letter of the CFE treaty about basing armour in Europe.

    With Russia being the only country to have signed it was pretty unfair that the rules only applied to them so Putin unilaterally declared that Russia would only be bound by the rules of the CFE treaty when the other parties all signed it too.

    I very much doubt the CFE will ever come into effect as I doubt the Russians will accept all the rules regarding their internal placement of armour... no other CFE member has any limits on where they can place armour in their own country.

    More importantly it was supposed to be about balance but as most members of the warsaw pact and even parts of the former soviet union are now part of NATO it really is not about balance at all.


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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #1

    Post  littlerabbit on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:47 am

    @franco @GarryB

    Thanks for informations guys, I appreciate it. respekt

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