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    T-90 Main Battle Tank

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    Austin

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:30 am

    Russian Army eyes MBT upgrades
    Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's International Defence Review

    http://www.janes.com/article/66105/russian-army-eyes-mbt-upgrades

    Russia may upgrade parts of its T-72 and T-90 main battle tank (MBT) fleets with the automatic target tracker (ATT) and fire control computer (FCC) installed in the Armata T-14 MBT, which is now entering production at UralVagonZavod's Nizhny Tagil facility.

    The installation of the ATT and the FCC from the T-14 Armata will improve the first round hit capability of the older T-72 and T-90 MBTs under adverse battlefield conditions, as well as reducing the workload on the gunner.

    Once locked on, the ATT constantly tracks the target and lays on the 125 mm smoothbore gun as well as taking into account inputs from the sensors, such as the speed and direction of the platform, condition of the gun, and ambient weather. The gunner then decides when to engage the target.

    The T-72B3 and T-90 MBTs selected to be upgraded will be those already fitted with the Kalina computerised fire control system (FCS), the latest version of which is installed in the T-14 Armata.

    The T-72B3 has been deployed on operations on the Russia/Ukraine border where it has demonstrated a high level of survivability because it is fitted with the latest generation Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour (ERA), which provides protection not only against missiles and rockets fitted with a high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead, but also kinetic energy projectiles.

    The decision to further enhance the capabilities of at least part of its existing MBT fleet could indicate that Russia will not replace the T-72 and subsequently the T-90 MBTs with the T-14 Armata on a one-for-one basis in the near term, and will continue to deploy a mixed MBT fleet.

    Russia has already decided to upgrade part of its T-80BV turbine-powered MBTs to extend their operational life, with the first of these to be handed over in 2017 from UralVagonZavod's Omsk facility.
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    GarryB

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:42 am

    Retrofitting systems designed for Armata and other new generation vehicle families makes a lot of sense as it will improve performance of the older vehicles as well as increase production numbers of these systems which should reduce their costs.

    It would also reduce the number of system types doing the same job in different vehicles which eases training and maintainence.

    Note the TOR air defence system had an optical target tracker in the 1980s, as did the Pantsir and now even the Kornet-EM has one too.

    They greatly increase accuracy of tracking targets especially when receiving return fire in a combat situation.


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    Arctic_Fox

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:17 pm

    T-90M «Proryv-3»:


    From Defence Blog.
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    Benya

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Benya on Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:34 pm

    Arctic_Fox wrote:T-90M «Proryv-3»:


    From Defence Blog.

    Looks cool, but that bar-slat armor does not really eliminates that "shot trap" on the lower side of the turret front, at least it offers some protection against shaped charges like HEAT-FS shells or ATGMs/RPG grenades.
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    Mike E

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Mike E on Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:38 am

    Why does that myth persist? There are no such things as "shot-traps" when the ammunition being fired is APFSDS or HEAT

    Austin

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:42 am

    IS that the first prototype of T-90M Break-3 ? How does the Break-3 design differ from T-90MS ?
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    x_54_u43

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:01 am

    Austin wrote:How does the Break-3 design differ from T-90MS ?

    It is the domestic version, and therefore significantly better.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  A1RMAN on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:50 am

    Finally some news on Proryv-3. If they are gonna sign a contract, I wonder what will be the final number of upgraded tanks and how much time it gonna take. Keeping in mind almost 500 T-90MS for India.
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    GarryB

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:13 am

    Neither APFSDS rounds nor HEAT rounds are deflected by angled plate armour.

    Only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled plate...


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    Benya

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Benya on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:06 am

    GarryB wrote:Neither APFSDS rounds nor HEAT rounds are deflected by angled plate armour.

    Only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled plate...

    What happens then?
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    Werewolf

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:07 am

    Benya wrote:
    Arctic_Fox wrote:T-90M «Proryv-3»:


    From Defence Blog.

    Looks cool, but that bar-slat armor does not really eliminates that "shot trap" on the lower side of the turret front, at least it offers some protection against shaped charges like HEAT-FS shells or ATGMs/RPG grenades.

    Some people never got over WW2...
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    Benya

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Benya on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:11 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Benya wrote:
    Arctic_Fox wrote:T-90M «Proryv-3»:


    From Defence Blog.

    Looks cool, but that bar-slat armor does not really eliminates that "shot trap" on the lower side of the turret front, at least it offers some protection against shaped charges like HEAT-FS shells or ATGMs/RPG grenades.

    Some people never got over WW2...

    Sorry that I know a bit less about modern tank warfare than you, "Mr. Self-proclaimed Military Expert"
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    Werewolf

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:18 am

    There can not be shot traps for a few reasons in particular for exactly this or any russian tank.

    They have not hard plate angled armor the incoming projectile would hit. It first hits ERA Tiles, which are very thin and soft and would not provide enough resistance to ricochet any fullbore round, which are not used anylonger. The ERA would only give an induced yaw to the incoming projectile (APFSDS) and bring it out of balance, which does not create a trapshot, neither giving it any advantage agaisnt the armor, but defeating it.

    Other tanks could also not have shot traps only more or less visible weak spots like lower LOS to the turret ring, which all tanks have from some angles.

    It just interesting to see people knowing some "terminology" such as trap shots but than continuing to use such terminology on forums. Do you got it from a video game or youtube?
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    Benya

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Benya on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:56 pm

    A bit of Off Topic

    Werewolf wrote:There can not be shot traps for  a few reasons in particular for exactly this or any russian tank.

    They have not hard plate angled armor the incoming projectile would hit. It first hits ERA Tiles, which are very thin and soft and would not provide enough resistance to ricochet any fullbore round, which are not used anylonger. The ERA would only give an induced yaw to the incoming projectile (APFSDS) and bring it out of balance, which does not create a trapshot, neither giving it any advantage agaisnt the armor, but defeating it.

    Other tanks could also not have shot traps only more or less visible weak spots like lower LOS to the turret ring, which all tanks have from some angles.

    Thanks for the info. Answers like this is what I would like to hear not, like this "Some people never got over WW2...", since it is a bit disrespectful.

    Werewolf wrote:It just interesting to see people knowing some "terminology" such as trap shots but than continuing to use such terminology on forums. Do you got it from a video game or youtube?

    A bit both. I play a lot of War Thunder (an online multiplayer game that features from Interwar (mid to late 20s and 30s) to early Cold War-era aircraft and tanks, and soon ships — No promotion intended, just mentioning — ). First heard about shot traps there when I was playing with tanks. I also heard about them in Youtube videos about tanks/tank warfare
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    GarryB

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:28 am

    A shot trap is where an angled plate deflects the incoming round to hit a more vulnerable area... ie in this case if we were talking about actual angled plate armour instead of NERA or ERA then the angle of the armour might deflect a round downwards to hit the turret ring, which is always a vulnerable spot on any tank.

    The problem is that only full calibre rounds are deflected by angled armour plate... HEAT rounds and APFSDS are not deflected, though angled armour does increase the actual amount of armour needing to be penetrated by the round so it is still useful.


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    franco

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:29 am

    The latest upgrade of the tank "Vladimir", created by Uralvagonzavod on "Breakthrough" - T-90M - will be armed not worse than the famous "Almaty was" told "Star" military expert Alexei Leonov.

    - Tank T-90M on "Breakthrough" - a deep modernization of the "Vladimir", it will be 400 tanks faced by the Russian Army. The car will receive an upgraded 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A82-1M - the same as that of "Almaty was" - and a new fire control system, characterized by high accuracy, rate of fire and increased up to 900 shots resource - the expert said.

    The gun that has a 17 percent greater muzzle energy and 20 percent more accurate tools German tank Leopard 2. Automatic loader allows the use of ammunition up to a meter in length - for example, designed for the "Almaty was" armor-piercing projectiles high power "vacuum".

    Ammunition T-90M consists of 45 rounds in the autoloader and removable boeukladki aft tower. Depending on the assigned task tank can carry any of the ammunition in the machine for the urban battlefield, or a full supply for duels in open terrain. In addition to the upgraded gun shells "Vladimir" fired guided missiles "Invar" and "Invar-M" with a tandem warhead - at a distance of five kilometers they hit any foreign armored vehicles: a standing armed and promising.

    For protection against enemy fire a tank equipped with a set of active and dynamic protection "Malachite" and the "Afghani". The lower part of the tower further cover Spaced Armour. The tank was installed a new fire control system "Kalina", integrated into the information management system for tactical level. Surveillance commander and gunner to effectively allow a lone goal to seek day and night, in place and in motion.

    NOTE: no time line yet for modernization to start
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    George1

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:08 pm

    According to Leonkov, Russia is going to upgrade 400 T-90 battle tanks to the T-90M level.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201701211049856690-t-90m-armata-cannon-russia/


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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:14 pm

    They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).



    This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come clown
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    franco

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:41 pm

    Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^

    Laughing Rolling Eyes Twisted Evil Suspect No thumbsup
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    Viktor

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:14 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).



    This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come clown

    Please explain? Why would it be impossible to place a upgraded autoloader that would be able to accommodate 200mm longer rods?
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:46 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:They are going to put the 2A82/82M on these tanks but because of hull floor they will have to keep same autoloader (thus same rounds).



    This only means that hull will get stretched or gutted. More weld feuds to come clown

    Please explain? Why would it be impossible to place a upgraded autoloader that would be able to accommodate 200mm longer rods?

    Let me help you with a visual aid.



    This is the current Carousel system, for obvious reasons you can't without rebuilding the hull, use elongated trays. The MS solves some of the memory problems by transferring the relevant electronics on turret.

    But having a 20 cm longer warheads means that the rounds will not be able to move to the breech in the current size specifications on the hull and that a hull stretching or gutting will be forced upon. Unless the autoloader goes back to T-80 solutions (which again will be difficult for a 20 cm longer warhead).

    Basically, this means NEW Autoloader with new rolling rammer instead of chain rammer as now. Don't worry I'm not dissing UVZ, just saying some statements are a bit more complicated than what they seem.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:42 am

    Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
    Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:48 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
    Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.

    The question is how will the Lahat be guided at 8+ km? Merkava tanks optics wont reach that far so it is kind of pointless. Reason for the ATGM on the T-90 and others is optics really do not extend more than 5km so no point putting on something just for the sake of it so it sounds cool.

    If the autoloader cannot handle longer rounds that are newer, then it wont get them. Big thing about the 2A82 cannon is that it has far more pressure than the 2A46 and so much higher in kenetic energy. So even standard rounds can do more damage.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:43 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Does the lack of new shells mean that the proryv 3 will have the same penetration as the T-90MS?
    Also isnt 5km already to little for a modern ATGM. lahat has 8km+ range since the early 2000s.

    Lahat has 8Km by being guided from a different post than the tag in the Merkava. Basically the Lahat is just the AGM-114 scaled down and modified for multiple platforms. Russia already has a technology that is exactly equivalent in the Hermes seeker. Cut out the booster stage and you have a 1.6m long/ 130mm rocket with FF ability. And then you have the usual problem with the autoloader. Do you see the problem now?

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    GarryB

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    Re: T-90 Main Battle Tank

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:23 am

    It is a shame that the 125mm uses two piece ammo where the APFSDS round has a lot of extra propellent on it.

    If it did not have that extra propellent then you could give it a rear turret bustle that just carried APFSDS penetrators. That would mean even if penetrated then it would be no risk of fire to the crew and you could put as many long rod penetrators in there as you liked.

    The main threat to the crew of ammo being hit is when HE rounds explode... which detonates everything at once with obvious lethal results for the crew.

    Having APFSDS rounds in the turret bustle exposed to enemy fire but separated from the crew by an automated loading system that only opens when passing rounds in to the gun would minimise the risk to the crew... allow rather more ready to fire rounds of ammo with much longer penetrators to be carried.

    Blow out panels in the roof could be used to redirect any propellent fire away from the crew compartment and other ammo....


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