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    Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:17 am

    The article I have read about the Sokol-1 describes it as being able to engage targets out of cover or moving or to be able to seek laser spots, which is very similar to the description of the Ugroza guidance system.

    The Sokol-1 will be standard 125mm ammo so even the Sprut should be able to carry and use it, so any MBT model of Kurganets or Boomerang should also be able to use it too.

    I suspect the Kurganets IFV will be armed to engage enemy (NATO) IFVs which means a 57mm gun at most supported by Kornet-EM missiles I suspect so Sokol-1 wont be an option for the IFV models of medium and light brigades.

    The MBT of the medium and light brigades on the other hand could have 125mm guns so they could use such rounds.

    Note the light brigades might have 57mm guns and missiles on their MBT/gun fire support vehicle because of weight limits.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:05 am

    Viktor wrote:
    On Vasiliy Fofanovs page LINK, under section 125mm guided rounds there is "Sokol-1" new generation ATGM fired from the gun. It would be interesting if that same round could be fired 

    from the Kurganets IFV.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:06 pm

    Interesting data... note an 8km range against helos plus 12km range with super elevation in dug in positions.

    (note the 125mm gun elevates to only about 25 or 30 degrees up so when digging a trench to hide the tank you can angle the floor so the front is much higher than the rear. This means that when dug in the tank can sit at the rear of the trench and be completely hidden from the enemy, but can drive forward and up so it can view and fire on the enemy and then reverse back down out of the line of fire. The point is that in the middle the vehicle will be climbing and therefore be able to angle its gun to near 45 degrees. If it can fire its missiles from those positions it will achieve its max range of 12km.)
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    medo

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  medo on Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:44 pm

    Sokol-1 is Svir replacement in Russian tanks?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:17 am

    Yes. Assuming it works as advertised...
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:11 am

    Sokol-1 is old sh1t, just rehashed Svir! Bring out the guided scramjet APFSDS rounds!

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:35 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:Sokol-1 is old sh1t, just rehashed Svir! Bring out the guided scramjet APFSDS rounds!

    Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

    Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:49 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

    Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).
    I stand corrected then, I thought it was a laser beam rider since I skimmed through what was written and saw laser. Anyway, learn something new everyday.
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:03 pm

    So following that logic, can it be shot without LOS of target and guided by third party, like operator with LM? If yes, then it's helluva step forward and gives a lot of options in combined operations, be it defence or attack.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:08 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

    Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).
    I stand corrected then, I thought it was a laser beam rider since I skimmed through what was written and saw laser. Anyway, learn something new everyday.
    One thing I should mention is that the nose-cone on the Sokol-1 is a protective nose-cone. It actually separates after launch, exposing the homing head. The picture shows the protective nose-cone still attached.
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    GarryB

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    Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:15 am

    So following that logic, can it be shot without LOS of target and guided by third party, like operator with LM? If yes, then it's helluva step forward and gives a lot of options in combined operations, be it defence or attack.
    Yes... it has SALH optional guidance or semi active laser homing... or laser spot homing where someone else can use a laser target marker to mark the target.

    I should be clear however Russian and Soviet systems are different from US and western systems... they basically have two forms of weapons... direct fire and indirect fire laser guided... in both cases you can't just lob a weapon in a general direction and then use the laser to ensure a hit.

    You need communication between the launcher and the target marker and the process is synchronised by computer so the coordinates of the launcher and the target are worked out and the aim is calculated, and then using a calculation based on flight time the round is fired/released and the computer in the target marker starts a count down. For a direct fire weapon 1 second from impact the laser turns on and marks the target and the missile or projectile fires side thruster rockets to adjust its trajectory to hit the target spot. For indirect weapons like laser guided bombs or artillery shells the time is 3 seconds to manouver which means the weapons are already aimed at the targets anyway... the laser guidance systems just improve accuracy to ensure a kill on moving point targets.

    The laser target marker could be a Ka-52, or Mig-35 or a UAV, or a soldier on the ground or a tank or armoured vehicle... most modern Russian armoured vehicles would have the capacity to aim their own laser guided rounds and therefore should have the equipment to mark targets too.

    The Sokol-1 however actually uses an optical guidance that has video processing that can detect moving objects and identify them for targeting.

    It can see laser spots as well so if it detects a laser spot that is coded correctly it will home in on that, but could also detect a tank in the open especially if it is moving.

    Sokol-1 is a direct fire weapon however and likely can't be used in the indirect role like most of the Russian and Soviet cannon calibres.

    kjasdu

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  kjasdu on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:08 am

    Garry, I was thinking of using HESH in urban combat to destroy brick walls.. I'm curious as to why modern Russia has no HESH rounds? What do they use to blow brick walls away efficiently?
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    Zivo

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Zivo on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:53 pm

    kjasdu wrote:Garry, I was thinking of using HESH in urban combat to destroy brick walls.. I'm curious as to why modern Russia has no HESH rounds? What do they use to blow brick walls away efficiently?
    Probably because they have HE-FRAG rounds.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:20 am

    As Zivo points out.... HE FRAG rounds with impact and delay fuses will flatten any brick wall you care to fire it at.

    Perhaps a better question would be to ask why the British bother with a type of ammo no one else in the world uses on their front line vehicles.

    All modern MBTs have smoothbore barrels because they are light weight and allow higher velocities to be achieved for a given propellent charge...

    The Main Anti Armour rounds used around the world... APFSDS and HEAT do not like to be rotated in flight at high speed... they are more effective fired from a smoothbore.

    With most modern vehicles using applique armour HESH is useless as an anti armour weapon and is not as effective at killing enemy troops as HE FRAG.
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    Pugnax

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    HESH rounds

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:00 pm

    Whilst in Somalia ,our Canadian troops in LAV Cougars destroyed a cache of T-55s/54s with their 76mm HESH rounds,While seeming not to have penetrated the outer skin, the interior spalling effect was enough to deduce it would kill/disable both crew and vehicle.The spalling scabs were literally  dinner plate to 1/2 metre in size.Against older armour HESH is a very effective anti-armour round.HESH will also be very useful in scouring large areas of reactive armour tile,exposing hull/turrets to more lethal fire.


    Last edited by Pugnax on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : punctuation correction.)
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:55 pm

    Pugnax wrote:Whilst in Somalia ,our Canadian troops in LAV Cougars destroyed a cache of T-55s/54s with their 76mm HESH rounds,While seeming not to have penetrated the outer skin, the interior spalling effect was enough to deduce it would kill/disable both crew and vehicle.The spalling scabs were literally  dinner plate to 1/2 metre in size.Against older armour HESH is a very effective anti-armour round.HESH will also be very useful in scouring large areas of reactive armour tile,exposing hull/turrets to more lethal fire.

    Great job destroying a T-55 like no other ammunition type could have done that.
    HESH is worthless on modern battlefield, tell me one tank in a modern army that today can be destroyed by HESH rounds?

    And when you are firing with HESH rounds upon an ERA covered tank it wan't make any difference if there is ERA or not, since rifled guns are not capable to provide any firepower to have a good effect on hard armored targets, while you are wasting time firing HESH rounds upon the Enemy he will do it with actual ammunition that can penetrate armor.
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    Pugnax

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    HESH

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:17 pm

    The Bundeswehr maintains large stocks of HESH,and nobody thought a 76mm gun could kill a t-55 on the front glacis at any decent combat range.As for the hesh effect,throw a ball off silly putty at a contoured surface and watch the spread...imagine this over a large surface of ERA tiles.Im not saying it will kill a modern MBT but it allows older,less capable systems a chance to play a role on the battlefield.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:30 am

    I think even with light era, you are prolly not gonna do any damage to the main armor with HESH because if you set off the ERA it will blow the outer plate the moment the shockwave touches the
    explosive layer. With heavy ERA you will most likely not set it off(millions of psi needed) but you may spall the explosive -outer plate interface.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:52 am

    Whilst in Somalia ,our Canadian troops in LAV Cougars destroyed a cache of T-55s/54s with their 76mm HESH rounds,While seeming not to have penetrated the outer skin, the interior spalling effect was enough to deduce it would kill/disable both crew and vehicle.The spalling scabs were literally dinner plate to 1/2 metre in size.Against older armour HESH is a very effective anti-armour round.HESH will also be very useful in scouring large areas of reactive armour tile,exposing hull/turrets to more lethal fire.
    Old exported T54/55s didn't have modern layered armour so HESH would be very effective, but even the field expedient of adding an extra layer of armour spaced from the main armour would defeat HESH and render it useless.

    And when you are firing with HESH rounds upon an ERA covered tank it wan't make any difference if there is ERA or not, since rifled guns are not capable to provide any firepower to have a good effect on hard armored targets, while you are wasting time firing HESH rounds upon the Enemy he will do it with actual ammunition that can penetrate armor.
    Not strictly true... the ERA should act as a layer of spaced armour so the spalling effect would be defeated and the vehicle left operational... so you got your first shot with your 76.2mm gun and you have no chance of penetrating... now they get a shot at you with their 100mm rifled gun... you might be in trouble if they know what they are doing... fortunately as often as not they didn't.

    The Bundeswehr maintains large stocks of HESH,and nobody thought a 76mm gun could kill a t-55 on the front glacis at any decent combat range.As for the hesh effect,throw a ball off silly putty at a contoured surface and watch the spread...imagine this over a large surface of ERA tiles.Im not saying it will kill a modern MBT but it allows older,less capable systems a chance to play a role on the battlefield.
    Against non armoured targets HESH is effective enough... it can demolish walls, or take out trucks and heavy non armoured vehicles.

    As you mention, it gets its effectiveness from spreading on the target and then detonating with the shockwave travelling through the targets armour with light elements of the internal armour flaking off and bouncing around inside the tank with lethal effect... the problem is that if you have ERA blocks on the outside of the tank the spalling will occur on the back of the ERA blocks directly onto the main armour and will not penetrate into the crew compartment. The crushing effect of the HESH will not blow the ERA blocks off the vehicle they will more likely just compress them against the main armour and render the ERA ineffective for the next hit. The chance of hitting the target in the same place with the next shot is very low, and you have just alerted the target to your presence.

    It would make rather more sense to try to work your way round to a flank and try to kill the tank with APFSDS rounds... or use a cheap missile like Metis-M1.

    The relatively cheap and simple addition of anti spall liners also makes HESH rather less effective... any hit where the projectile comes within about 10% of penetrating the tank armour can create spall in a tank so anti spall liners are actually rather commonly used.
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    Pugnax

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    HESH

    Post  Pugnax on Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:55 am

    Werewolf i totally agree,the boys at Kharkiv Morozov definitely spruced up the T-55AG to be a contender on a modern playijng field.As i have witnessed intense .50 cal HMG fire cook off ERA i have no doubts that a decent HESH round does the same.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:11 am

    Which model ERA?

    The stuff used since the late 1980s that also reduces the penetration of APFSDS rounds has a much thicker outer plate and should be rather effective as both ERA and Spaced armour.
    Newer ERA uses less and less explosive so the risk of sympathetic detonation is also greatly reduced.

    If you have to hit the target multiple times to have a chance of penetration then it might be time to upgrade your weapon and ammo.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:29 am


    Pugnax wrote:The Bundeswehr maintains large stocks of HESH,and nobody thought a 76mm gun could kill a t-55 on the front glacis at any decent combat range.As for the hesh effect,throw a ball off silly putty at a contoured surface and watch the spread...imagine this over a large surface of ERA tiles.


    I don't know the details of those........alleged.......engagements in Somalia of T-55s with LAV's 76mm HESH shells (L29A5 ?) , but is absolutely clear that no HESH round at world is even only barely efficient in classical anti-armoured operations and that those Canadian LAVs , if those engagements ever happen really, have very likely executed them exploiting huge ISR advantages on the enemies (a true classic for western engagements against theirs usual third world opponents) at example engaging them from very close distance in night operations or while those tanks was motionless for maintenance or refueling.

    The reason is very simple HESH rounds are terribly slow and moderately unstable (the up-cited L29A5 shell's muzzle velocity barely surpass 500m/s and even the 120 mm L31 don't surpass 670 m/s at the barrel !) and therefore are totally incapable to hit literally anything at tactically useful ranges in the classical MBT/IFV high mobile offensive and counter-offensive ground operations characterizing War operations against a major enemy....except at ranges so reduced that even an RPG would represent an enormously more efficient and cheap solution, for not say infinitely less exposed to detection too Wink ).
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    Pugnax

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    HESH

    Post  Pugnax on Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:51 pm

    Said action was at night,750m,warlord tanks were clustered around a copse of trees,crews were at hand but disembarked.
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    Zivo

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Zivo on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:39 am

    While on the topic of tanks vs buildings, take a look at this.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=272_1383045077

    Clearly a HEAT round, and the camera survived. I doubt the guys by the camera stuck around.

    HE capability is very important.
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Regular on Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:34 pm

    Zivo wrote:While on the topic of tanks vs buildings, take a look at this.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=272_1383045077

    Clearly a HEAT round, and the camera survived. I doubt the guys by the camera stuck around.

    HE capability is very important.
    Great find. Not the first video where tanks are using HEAT instead of HE-frag. Why is that?

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