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    Tanks guns and ammunition

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    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:25 pm

    via mp.net





    svinets-1 and 2 for old T-series tanks, has a length - 680-690mm(piercing will be around 600-650mm)

    grifel-1 and 2 new found certainly not for T-series tanks has a length about 900mm

    all pictures from Otvaga2004.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:31 pm

    900mm - that would be the make one hell of a penetration.

    Any info about the round.

    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:44 pm

    This is the reply i got at mp.net , if you read russian then the link would tell you better , share if you find any thing interesting

    it's real from NIMI(Nauchno-issledovatelʹskiy mashinostroitelʹnyy institut) book

    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=594&p=14

    T-90MS autoloader no different from T-90A autoloader and can take shells no longer than 700 mm

    "Grifel" created for the object 195 or armata, and can load only in new autoloader, or turret autoloader like on "Burlak" turret

    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:18 am

    via DFI



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    GarryB

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:58 am

    T-90MS autoloader no different from T-90A autoloader and can take shells no longer than 700 mm

    What has the export version got to do with this?

    The T-90AM has a new modified autoloader, the T-90A had an older modified AL to allow longer ammo to be loaded, but newer even longer rounds have been developed since the T-90A entered service.

    The new longer rod rounds have been developed since the T-90A and the new autoloader goes with the new gun in the T-90AM.


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    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:32 pm

    As per many Russian posters T-90A/M autoloader cannot hold rounds more than ~ 740 mm in length , thats the autoloader limitation and not related to export model.

    So the long round Grifl round cannot be fired from existing T's

    They have developed 2A82 Gun to fire higher chamber pressure rounds.

    Lidsky M.D had posted 2A82 patent link http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/231/2311603.html

    Check interesting discussion here link
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    medo

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:40 am

    Are those new longer APFSDS rounds developed for Armata?

    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:11 am

    Seems like its for Armata and for cancelled T-95

    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:09 pm

    Some more pictures via Lidsky M.D



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    Viktor

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Viktor on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:11 pm

    By the pictures I think these new rounds are one piece rounds as opposed to two piece rounds Russians used so far. Im I wrong?

    Whats the length of 2A82 gun?

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    GarryB

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:56 pm

    Two piece. Front piece with projectile and Sabot and propellent charge, rear piece propellent and case stub.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:08 pm

    neat round, from what ive read its penetrator length is similar to m829a3s while having greater energy values. wonder if its DU or WHA? however apart from the elongation and new propellant, nothing else seemsnext-gen to me. acquiring ultra-light composite sabots, a self-sharpening penetrator(WHA) tech , or even amorphous alloy penetrator, even more powerful propellants would be the next steps for future APFSDS rounds. alsoanyone else notice that the projectile is seated about halfway in the propellant part? there are "screws" where i think the projectile ends.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:28 am

    Seems like its for Armata and for cancelled T-95

    And Sprut-B towed 125mm smoothbore gun...


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    TR1

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:54 am

    Just noticed, what is going on wit that HEAT round, 2nd from left in the top picture?

    Usually the anti-ERA charge is at the very tip, this seems to have something more complicated going on.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:30 am

    TR1 wrote:Just noticed, what is going on wit that HEAT round, 2nd from left in the top picture?

    Usually the anti-ERA charge is at the very tip, this seems to have something more complicated going on.

    It is the 3BK-31 triple charged HEAT round.

    Go to http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/
    125mm HEAT rounds / Nomenclature and scroll down.

    Watch on Fofanov's side he states that it has probably an diffrent metal cone maybe an alloy and not usual copper.

    He says it has 800mm RHA penetration which outperformce any APFSDS in service.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:13 am

    It is actually quite common to have a double HEAT charge... Hellfire, for example has a double charge full calibre warhead to achieve the high penetration claims.

    The order of detonation will be small precursor charge in front first to prematurely set off any ERA layer and blow it out of the way before the main charge acts. Next goes the rear most charge which blows a small hole through the charge in front of it, followed by the front charge. Against armour with no ERA the first precursor charge will start a small penetration, the rear charge will continue that and dig a significant hole into the target and the final charge will complete the penetration and spread hot material inside the tank interior.


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    TR1

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:37 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just noticed, what is going on wit that HEAT round, 2nd from left in the top picture?

    Usually the anti-ERA charge is at the very tip, this seems to have something more complicated going on.

    It is the 3BK-31 triple charged HEAT round.

    Go to http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/
    125mm HEAT rounds / Nomenclature and scroll down.

    Watch on Fofanov's side he states that it has probably an diffrent metal cone maybe an alloy and not usual copper.

    He says it has 800mm RHA penetration which outperformce any APFSDS in service.


    Ah thanks, forgot that was that new round.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:06 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just noticed, what is going on wit that HEAT round, 2nd from left in the top picture?

    Usually the anti-ERA charge is at the very tip, this seems to have something more complicated going on.

    It is the 3BK-31 triple charged HEAT round.

    Go to http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/
    125mm HEAT rounds / Nomenclature and scroll down.

    Watch on Fofanov's side he states that it has probably an diffrent metal cone maybe an alloy and not usual copper.

    He says it has 800mm RHA penetration which outperformce any APFSDS in service.


    Ah thanks, forgot that was that new round.

    Unfortunatley it is not in service. Would be nice to see it as soon as possible in service.
    Always prefered HEAT over APFSDS.
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    GarryB

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    Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:49 am

    Well, with the withdrawl of older model tanks and the upgrade of some existing tanks and the introduction very soon of new tanks the introduction of new ammo probably isn't that far away if it hasn't already started.

    I rather suspect they will unify or combine a few of the ammo producers (ie chemical factories that make propellent and explosive) and then start orders for new ammo so they have some in stock when the new vehicles become available.

    Looking at the situation with aircraft there were very few modern weapons actually in service... most simply were not bought because of their cost... no point buying expensive new weapons if you don't have any new or upgraded aircraft that can actually use them.

    Now however, their numbers are reducing, so they have to make the change from dumb/simple/cheap, to smart/capable/not so cheap. An example is the new electronic fuse and guidance system they have for their 152mm shells and larger. It has a GLONASS receiver and control fins that allow it to guide an old obsolete 152mm shell to within 10m of a target in any weather, day or night. The new fuses cost around $1000 dollars each, but it means that you might only use 2-3 rounds instead of 40-50 so it actually saves money and makes the on board load of ammo a SPG carries much more effective... being able to engage 10-20 targets instead of 1 or 2.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

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    Austin

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:59 pm

    What is this ?

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:25 pm

    Austin wrote:What is this ?


    As indicated in the picture it is the Sokol-1 guided projectile. The variant shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) imaging guidance plus a laser semiactive guidance.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:55 pm

    The first I saw of that projectile was in Russias Arms 2004 where it is mentioned for the first time.

    I think it uses an EO seeker similar to that used in the Ugroza guidance kits for unguided aerial rockets.

    Very simply it can lock on to distinct targets like tanks or buildings, or indeed moving objects, but for a camouflaged log bunker you can point a laser and it will home onto that laser spot too.

    Keep in mind that Russian and Soviet laser guided weapons are not the same as western systems... they still have to be aimed at the target but in the case of indirect fire munitions like artillery fired guided missiles like Gran, Kitilov, Krasnopol, etc.. ie semi active laser homing (as opposed to laser beam riding like Svir and Kornet) the laser only marks the target for the last three seconds of the trajectory. With direct fire rounds it is one second.

    Very simply when a target is detected and its coordinates are calculated a flight time is also worked out and the launch platform is sent firing instructions from the target marker team and a clock counts down till impact minus 3 seconds for indirect fire and impact minus 1 second for direct fire ammo at which time the laser is automatically activated the target is marked and the projectile manouvers for a direct hit.

    Basically Austin is hunkered down on the tree line with his laser target marker and radio and small laptop computer and looks for targets. Once found he will lase an object 50m away from the target to get its approximate position without giving away his location the laser will calculate the range precisely and using mils stadia on the aiming reticle Austin can calculate the change in angle and also in range to the actual target to get its precise location. (at different ranges the markings on his sight cover different distances so at x range 10 mils might be 10 metres... the laser will give the range to the spot lased and the stadia can be used to correct the location for the actual target).

    Austin will then radio a nearby friendly artillery unit and call for a strike... a particular vehicle will be selected and its position and the position of the target will allow a precise shooting solution to be worked out (ie elevation and traverse) and flight time. Once the shot is ready Austin will transmit a fire signal and he will place his crosshair on the part of the target he wants hit with the trigger pulled. At 3 seconds to impact the laser will light up the target and the incoming round will detect the reflected laser signal and generally fire side thruster rocket motors to get as close as it can... as you can read CEP is 1-2m.

    In this case however Sokol-1 is fired from a tank gun so it will have 1 second to manouver to hit the target.

    This would be an excellent round for a towed 125mm gun in a self defence position... and would also be good for use against IFVs and ATGM carriers.

    It wont make a T-80 a missile tank, but it is an effective new round for a variety of uses.


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    Austin

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    Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:56 am

    Thanks Garry but I wont do any of those Razz 

    Austin

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    2A46M Ammunition

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 pm

    Check Page 17 , 3BM42 has been described in some detail

    http://issuu.com/airfleet/docs/arms-2010-4-light

    kjasdu

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    Re: Tanks guns and ammunition

    Post  kjasdu on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:08 pm

    Garry, I was thinking of using HESH in urban combat to destroy brick walls.. I'm curious as to why modern Russia has no HESH rounds? What do they use to blow brick walls away efficiently?

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