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    Russian Tank guns Ammunition

    Ives
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    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 Empty ATGM for Russian tanks.

    Post  Ives on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 am

    Should Russia build its own top attack ATGM? LAHAT and KSTAM seems to be superior to the tank-used ATGMs Russia currently has. Don't know much about Sprinter for Armata, though. So, what do you guys think?
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    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:54 am

    If tanks are going to be used for long range indirect fire on a regular basis, then I would recommend an unassisted top attack shell with a laser seeker like Kitolov-2M and GRAN. A 125mm HE warhead with a delay fuze should be more than enough to deal with the roof armour of any modern tank in service.
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    Post  Ives on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:07 am

    Interlinked wrote:If tanks are going to be used for long range indirect fire on a regular basis, then I would recommend an unassisted top attack shell with a laser seeker like Kitolov-2M and GRAN. A 125mm HE warhead with a delay fuze should be more than enough to deal with the roof armour of any modern tank in service.

    These toys are 120mm. Most Russian tanks use 125mm canon. The most modern ATGM they can use for now is Reflex-M, which kinda inferior to LAHAT, though. I don't know much about Sprinter, btw. Only in the case of 152mm version of T-14, Russian tanks gonna have major superiority against LAHAT and KSTAM, thanks to the ability to use Kornet-1D and Krasnopol-M. But, it seems to me, that a new modification of Reflex should be developed for T-72B3, T-90M and T-80BVM as a response to LAHAT as well.

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    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:30 am

    What is the advantage of increasing the direct fire range of anti-tank missiles beyond what has already been achieved with Refleks and Svir? What are the chances of a T-80VBM seeing and identifying a tank-type target at 8 km in Central Europe?
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    Post  Ives on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:36 am

    Interlinked wrote:What is the advantage of increasing the direct fire range of anti-tank missiles beyond what has already been achieved with Refleks and Svir? What are the chances of a T-80VBM seeing and identifying a tank-type target at 8 km in Central Europe?

    Tank should be suitable not only for european terrain IMHO. It should be functional in all hypothetical scenarios I think.

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    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:58 am

    The problem idoes not merely concern terrain obstacles, but also the weather conditions and the magnification capabilities of the sighting system. Even if a T-80BVM were sitting atop a hill in Syria and looking out into never ending plains, the weather is probably not good enough for the crew to see a tank-sized target at 8 km, not to mention the fact that Russian thermal imaging optics have very limited digital zoom capabilities. Sosna-U only has 3x optical zoom (day channel) and 6x digital zoom (thermal vision channel). That's very, very bad. Contemporary Western FLIR sights have more than 20x digital magnification.

    Plus, you can't identify a tank from a truck or even a decently sized diesel generator at 8 km with a high magnification thermal imager, especially if the target is a NATO tank and is wearing Barracuda thermoptic camouflage. Because of this, the long range of LAHAT can only be exploited by forward observers equipped with a laser designator, not by the tank alone. The tank firing the LAHAT would be doing so in an indirect fire mode, not in direct fire, and that's why I said "If tanks are going to be used for long range indirect fire on a regular basis, then I would recommend an unassisted top attack shell with a laser seeker like Kitolov-2M and GRAN."

    It's simply not feasible any other way.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:43 pm

    The problem of armor-piercing shells "Vacuum"

    Colleague Gur Khan attacks! posted in his blog interesting material "BPS" Vacuum ":
    how to cram in "about the problems of the modernization of Russian tanks under the new 125-mm tank gun 2A82 and the armor-piercing sabot projectile (BPS) developed for it new generation of OCD "Vacuum".

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6427545_original

    The Russian tank super-cannon 2A82, which is now installed in the T-14 Armata tank with minor changes, was originally conceived and developed for a different purpose - the modernization of the numerous fleet of T-72 and T-80 tanks and, first and foremost, to equip the new modifications T-90 tank. A feature of the new gun was the ability to use new, longer armor-piercing sabots with enhanced armor penetration. But here's the bad luck ... BPS, developed by them for the topic "Vacuum" had a length of 900 mm. That is, they were guaranteed not to fit into the shops of standard automata and loading mechanisms. How did the Russian designers solve such a problem?

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6427379_original
    Tank T-90 with AZ "horizontal" type. From the KBTM patent, Omsk (c) Gur Khan attacks!

    The first and most obvious option is the abandonment of the existing “autoloader” constructions with the transition to a new type of automatic loader - the so-called “horizontal” one. In it, the shells (mainly BPS) are located horizontally in the conveyor, attached to the aft part of the tower. At the same time, there is a technical possibility to leave the classic AZ transporter in the fighting compartment, filling it with cumulative high-explosive fragmentation ammunition and missiles. The result was a “double flow AZ”.

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6427810_original
    "Double flow" AZ in which the "long" BPS are located horizontally in the zabashchenny compartment. PeS patent KBTM, Omsk (c) Gur Khan attacks!

    Back in the 1990s, designers from the Omsk Design Bureau, which previously specialized in engineering and auxiliary equipment and accompanying the serial production of the T-80U tank at the local Transmash, seized upon this idea. In 2005, the decision with the AZ of the “horizontal” type formed the basis of the ROC Burlak.

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6428043_original
    "Frenched" AZ "horizontal" type, developed in the framework of the ROC "Burlak" (c) Gur Khan attacks!

    We will tell about this interesting work some other time, but for now we note that not everything obvious is rational.

    In practice, the unified combat compartment with the new AZ was very difficult and unreliable. It greatly changed the location of the center of gravity of the tank, which affected the driving and maneuvering capabilities. In an amicable way, it also required the lengthening of machines when upgrading to seven rollers on board. Controversial were the issues of protection of zabashny AZ But the main thing is the extremely high novelty of the structure, which leads to an increase in labor costs, cost, and, again, the reliability of the structure as a whole. In general, in 2009, this topic was hacked.

    Modernization of the MZ "kabinnyh" type, which stood on the T-64 and T-80 immediately considered a hopeless occupation. Instead, the Russian “eighty” was planned to be equipped with “unified fighting units” or “unified fighting modules” of Omsk or Nizhny Tagil design.

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6427065_original


    About how to cram Vacuum into Tagil AZ at various Internet-related forums, various “experts” and “amateurs” broke many copies. Meanwhile, the decision to which the Ural designers arrived during the ROC "Breakthrough-2" was simple and elegant, and, by the way, it was ideologically similar to what the Kharkiv team did at T-64A at that time - they also had MH in the case "just like that" did not want to get up. If BPS "Lead-1" and "Lead-2" having a length of 740mm, still fit into the classic AZ conveyor, then what needs to be done, what would the 900mm "Vacuum" enter? The difference in length between these ammunition: 900-740 = 160mm. And so much space needed to be found in the width of the fighting compartment of the tank, so that it would have entered a larger diameter conveyor. And now we recall that the thickness of the T-72B and T-90 in the BO region is 80 mm. 80 + 80 = 160, the most desired 160mm! The Urals simply made small cuts in the sides, covering them with the corresponding armor plates from the outside. Voila! Simple and elegant solution. In the same way, the frosts in Kharkiv milled the side of the T-64A in the area of ​​the Ministry of Health, and later did the stamping. Only on the T-64 and T-80 due to the fact that the munitions in the MOH were located vertically, this stamping had a very impressive size. In the case of the Tagil AZ, the lining turned out to be minimal, which can be clearly seen in the illustrations.


    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6428382_original

    Actually, the 2A82 gun got up instead of the 2A46M without any problems - all the landing dimensions and the mounting design were the same.

    To ensure firing with "Vacuum", the loading angle was increased to 12 °. What changes did AZ get? First of all, the conveyor belt was changed. Once again, the mechanism for lifting the cassettes and the rammer were changed. “Once again” - this is because before this, their design was changed under BPS L = 740mm. Then the cassette lifting bracket received a bend in the middle part and a number of corresponding changes, which made it possible to change the trajectory of the cassette with ammunition, without changing the design and dimensions of the tower itself. Now, for firing BPS L = 900mm, the cassette lifting mechanism bracket was made of a complex concave shape. This again changed the trajectory of recovery and allowed to fit into the existing dimensions of the fighting compartment.

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 6428419_original

    The developed combat module with a 2A82 cannon, with the above-described refinement of the tank hull, could easily get up in both the T-90 and T-72, and the upgraded T-80. But this did not happen in practice. With the modernization of Russian tanks, guns of the D-81 type are still used: 2A46M-4; 2A46M-5 and 2A46M-6.

    The 2A82 will not even be on the T-90M tank that is so awaited by the Russian army. Just because, as it turned out, our domestic industry does not know how to produce it. But, this is the topic of a future article.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3493417.html
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    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:08 am

    It is clear that Western type of ammunition storage is not acceptable in Russia, because that is a huge waste of material and weight... The West has to create an additional heavy box with thick armor for the ammo protection, while Russian design simply make use of existing hull armor.

    Of course it will be a different issue if the external ammo only contain APFSDS without any propellant, then extremely thick armor is not neccessary... but again it is impossible for old generation of Russian AP warhead, since it usually contain a portion of additional propellant, so that AP and HE warhead can use the same kinds of propellant without any adverse effect... then the solution here is a new softwares and sensors so that the autoloader can recoginze correct types of warheads and propellants and then T-90xxx can strip off propellant out of KE ammo as it like and an external storage full of APFSDS may be a potential choice to increase total ammo carried.

    But then, another problem here is if your customer desired NATO ammo but want a Soviet-type tanks, like T-84 Yatagan. A bulky, heavy external ammo is expected.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:18 am

    The thing is that the long ammo we are talking about is a block of propellant with what equates to a needle sticking out the end... of course it is a 40mm plus diameter needle, but a needle shape nonetheless.

    I am surprised they didn't just adapt the centre of the autoloader so that the rounds in the autoloader can be angled slightly so their noses overlap allowing longer penetrators to be placed in the autoloader.

    Perhaps even having one side of the autoloader with the long penetrator rounds and HE and HEAT rounds on the other side allowing the longer penetrators to poke through into the other side of the autoloader...

    It would require that they can flex down so they can be lifted out normally for loading... but would it really be that hard?

    Moving to a liquid propellent and just carrying projectiles without propellent would mean a rear turret bustle full of penetrators in sabots with no extra propellent would become safe and efficient way to store ammo.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Moving to a liquid propellent and just carrying projectiles without propellent would mean a rear turret bustle full of penetrators in sabots with no extra propellent would become safe and efficient way to store ammo.

    Can we control the rate of burning when choosing liquid propellant ? As far as I know different kinds of warheads demand different rate of burning for the propellant.
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    Post  Hole on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:43 am

    Propably by changing the mixture.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:35 am

    The 125mm main gun of current Russian tanks use a standard propellant stub for all rounds of ammo, and for the high velocity anti armour rounds there is extra propellant around the penetrator, while the lower velocity rounds (HE FRAG and HEAT) are just projectiles without extra propellant.

    As far as I know they all use the same propellent mixture, but the high velocity rounds use more propellant and a light projectile to achieve the high muzzle velocity, while the standard rounds are heavier and have no extra propellant except for the standard charge.

    For a liquid propellant charge weapon, the amount of propellant used could be infinitely variable depending on the target type, the target range, the air temperature, the ammo type and weight, even the barrel length of the gun being used.

    To enhance safety it would be ideal to split the propellant into two relatively inert liquids that can be stored separately inside the vehicle so if hit the material might be toxic and might burn but would not explode or burn violently if ignited.

    There was some mention that the propellant used for Coalition (152mm artillery) had to be microwaved to prepare it to be used as propellant, which would be an excellent safety feature and could perhaps improve mixing and make it clean burning.

    Note a carefully designed liquid could be designed so it burned completely and converted all the chemicals into gases and left no solid remnants to dirty the weapon, so it could be a totally clean burning propellant.

    Liquid propellant offers more powerful reactions than solid propellant or gas based propellant.

    For smaller calibre guns the liquid propellant could be pumped through the barrel of the gun before being injected into the chamber to cool the barrel to allow a higher rate of fire and also improve the performance of the propellant...
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    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:00 pm

    Tests of the promising Russian Sokol-V guided weapon system

    Work on the promising Russian complex of guided weapons 3UBK25 Sokol-V has reached its final stage. Tests will be held at the Smolino training ground.

    It is planned to use 25 3UBK25 military missiles with warhead and seeker, as well as 46 practical missiles with seeker (without warheads) and 46 missiles with onboard inertial navigation system BINS without warhead and seeker. The new generation rocket is being developed by A.E. Design Bureau of Precision Engineering Nudelman. "

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 75244310
    Fig. 1. Promising SD with passive GOS: 1 - GOS; 2 - warhead; 3 - engine; 4 - docking unit; 5 - wing; 6 - steering wheel; 7 - drive unit; 8 - pallet dumping mechanism; 9 - radiation receiver; 10 - inductor sleeve


    In the event of successful completion of the tests, this will be the first missile in Russia with autonomous homing with completely new combat qualities. A promising guided missile equipped with a passive optoelectronic homing head (GOS), an onboard inertial navigation system (SINS), integrated with satellite navigation equipment (ASN), and a laser beam control channel (LLKU).

    All this, of course, indicates that the rocket will turn out not cheap.

    Shooting will be carried out by a T-80 tank and a ballistic installation with a 2A82 system. Also, when testing the damaging effects of warheads, 36 bioobjects (rabbits) will be used.


    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 75250610
    Passive GOS consists of the information channel of the visible (VD) and infrared (IR) ranges, a gyroscopic stabilization system, and a three-degree tracking system.

    A promising SD is designed to destroy ground targets and low-speed air targets and implements such modern principles of guided weapons as:

    - the principle of "shot-forgot" (with homing in the final section of the trajectory);

    - defeat of ground objects in the weakly protected upper hemisphere;

    - defeat targets beyond line of sight;

    - method of passive determination of target coordinates in several spectral ranges;

    - the presence of an inertial portion of the trajectory with the adjustment of measurements from satellite navigation signals.

    The adoption of the complex (subject to the success of the tests) with the implementation of the above properties will lead Russian tanks to leading positions in the possibility of hitting enemy targets both in direct visibility and when shooting indirect fire.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3842246.html
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:27 am

    George1 wrote:Tests of the promising Russian Sokol-V guided weapon system

    Work on the promising Russian complex of guided weapons 3UBK25 Sokol-V has reached its final stage. Tests will be held at the Smolino training ground.

    It is planned to use 25 3UBK25 military missiles with warhead and seeker, as well as 46 practical missiles with seeker (without warheads) and 46 missiles with onboard inertial navigation system BINS without warhead and seeker. The new generation rocket is being developed by A.E. Design Bureau of Precision Engineering Nudelman. "

    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 75244310
    Fig. 1. Promising SD with passive GOS: 1 - GOS; 2 - warhead; 3 - engine; 4 - docking unit; 5 - wing; 6 - steering wheel; 7 - drive unit; 8 - pallet dumping mechanism; 9 - radiation receiver; 10 - inductor sleeve


    In the event of successful completion of the tests, this will be the first missile in Russia with autonomous homing with completely new combat qualities. A promising guided missile equipped with a passive optoelectronic homing head (GOS), an onboard inertial navigation system (SINS), integrated with satellite navigation equipment (ASN), and a laser beam control channel (LLKU).

    All this, of course, indicates that the rocket will turn out not cheap.

    Shooting will be carried out by a T-80 tank and a ballistic installation with a 2A82 system. Also, when testing the damaging effects of warheads, 36 bioobjects (rabbits) will be used.


    Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 9 75250610
    Passive GOS consists of the information channel of the visible (VD) and infrared (IR) ranges, a gyroscopic stabilization system, and a three-degree tracking system.

     A promising SD is designed to destroy ground targets and low-speed air targets and implements such modern principles of guided weapons as:

    - the principle of "shot-forgot" (with homing in the final section of the trajectory);

    - defeat of ground objects in the weakly protected upper hemisphere;

    - defeat targets beyond line of sight;

    - method of passive determination of target coordinates in several spectral ranges;

    - the presence of an inertial portion of the trajectory with the adjustment of measurements from satellite navigation signals.

    The adoption of the complex (subject to the success of the tests) with the implementation of the above properties will lead Russian tanks to leading positions in the possibility of hitting enemy targets both in direct visibility and when shooting indirect fire.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3842246.html

    lol1  I completely called this, the new GLATGM's will have inertial guidance as I predicted! The intergration of inertial guidance should allow it to hit far greater that it'll will be advertised.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:51 am

    So it has GLONASS and optical and thermal imaging capacity and the ability to detect laser energy... interesting.

    That means if a target is detected its coordinates can be passed back to the armoured vehicle unit which can then aim and fire one of these rounds in the direction of the target. The missile has GLONASS so it will know where it is and where it is going and will head to the target area looking at the target coordinates to find the target.

    One assumes that either it will identify the target itself either optically or by its thermal signature, but it can also be cued by a laser target marking beam.

    So Russian special forces guy in the field spots a critical target and looks through his IWS and takes a photo and lases the target, so the GLONASS system in his scope determines his location and the range and direction to the target he just took an image of and lased and sent the targets coordinates and its thermal image to HQ who likely relayed it to a T-80 unit nearby... knowing his own coordinates and now having the coordinates of the target the commander can load a Sokol round and fire it in the direction of the target if it is in range... the missile could have an image of the target and its coordinates and as it approaches the coordinates it starts looking in digital video and thermal imaging frequencies for the target. If necessary the soldier who detected the target could then turn on a laser to mark the target and the missile will detect the laser spot and dive down on top of it... it will have its own optics and thermal view of the target so it will see the spot but should recognise the vehicle that is being marked and might adjust its flight to hit the top of the engine bay or the top of the turret instead of just blinding flying at the laser spot which might not be the best place to hit the target... the angle it is being marked from and the distance might mean the laser spot is on the thickest piece of armour instead of the thinnest so the missile might use the laser spot to identify the target but use its own imager seeker to pick a better impact point.

    AI has moved on in leaps and bounds and processing an image in real time has too... just look at things like snapchat etc.

    Imagine what a 152mm version will be capable of and what range it will get from Coalitions gun barrel with a scramjet booster engine.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:01 pm


    Сокол-В missile has been conceived as a relatively mass-produceable and retro-equipable gun-launched missile designed mostly to win the "duel" with the AGM-179 JAGM, in particular when both missiles, in future battlefield, will be employed with third-part target designation (by tactical UAVs mostly) out of line of sight of the respective carrying platform.
    For the oбъект-148, instead, another product will see the light in the next years.

    The concept around its design (conceived at the time of development over the ocean of the now failed Joint Common Missile) was to provide future mechanized forces with a weapon offering to mechanized forces the independent capability to win the "duel" with mostly enemy helicopters and UCAV, placed behind obstacles blocking LOS (such as hills, low mountains or even very tall buildings in high urbanized area) receiving precise target designation from tactical UAVs or forward-deployed infantry units giving similar capability to the armoured units and improving that with additional features allowed by some unilater advantages enjoyied by the latter's formations in thsoe instances.

    The factors are mainly the following:

    - Access to military grade satellite-positioning: attacking enemy airborne platforms (UAV/UCAVs, aircraft and helicopters) do not expect to have access to theirs satellite position data (and satellite enabled navigation and control guidance) within several hundreds of Km from Federation's first and second echelon of ground forces formations and even less at some dozen of km from them. The inverse instead is not expected because attacking airborne platforms will not have the necessary mass, volume, antenna size and energy requirements to be capable to destroy domestic military grade satellite positioning signals in the same way.
    This has generated the need for foreign designers to give up in theirs future anti-tank weapons GPS and satellite navigation while domestic ones have get the possibility to integrate ГЛОНАСС. Therefore when receiving the target positional data from third party (at example a tactical UAV in the opposite side of the obstacle interrupting the LOS) the Сокол-В using INS, geo-morphological point correlation and ГЛОНАСС will reach the area where its multispectral optronic homing system will detect and lock on the target while the JAGM will need to employ another tracking devide in the transitional area before reaching the range for the homing (see point two).

    - Need ,by part of JAGM, of high frequency active radar irradiation of targets either before weapon launch and before terminal missile's head homing : the need to detect, identify and selectively attack some enemy vehicles (among hundres real and decoys likely present in the area) in strong radar clutter and IR signature interference and overlapping has forced competitors's designers to foresee the use of X band and K band surveillance radar on the area to be attacked both before weapon release (through at example UAV SAR of Linx II type or Ah-64E's AN/APG-78) and before terminal homing in fire and forget mode.
    This generate two key weakness in JASM kill chain in comparison with domestic Сокол-В :
    1) The attack of the former will practically never achieve surprise on the enemy
    and to the contrary will expose surveillance platform (being it the carrier of the JASM or not) to be engaged and destroyed preventing target position's transmission.
    2) The enemy of JASM's operators will employ EW to corrupt positional data obtained by those radars (with the natural "aid" provided by ground clutter obviously) so to cause the delivered missiles to go totally out of course.


    Naturally the presence on the domestic armoured brigade's side of the world's most advanced medium and short range air defense system, both missiles and gun-based, capable to not only easily destroy the UAV/UCAVs or aircraft used for third party target designation but also the same incoming missiles (an element absent obviously at inverted side) and , within some years, also of serial hard-kill APS that naturally could be not integrated for inherent limits in airborne vehicles, will only furtherly worsen the situation for JASM's operators.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:51 am

    So guidance options look rather interesting...

    A promising guided missile equipped with a passive optoelectronic homing head (GOS), an onboard inertial navigation system (SINS), integrated with satellite navigation equipment (ASN), and a laser beam control channel (LLKU).

    So nose mounted optical sensor that seeks visible light (TV sensor) and IR (Thermal imager), so it should be able to process video data and detect targets on its own... like digital cameras have face detection and tracking abilities, plus it has inertial navigation so it can fly to a specific point in space on its own, it has GLONASS guidance so can find a point in space on its own too, and the laser beam control channel means in direct fire roles it can be fired directly at a target like a Kornet missile or Svir where it just rides the laser beam directly to the target.

    The optical seeker should also be able to detect targets being marked with lasers too and could possibly have a function where the round is launched to a general location... ie over a hill into the valley beyond where a large group of enemy vehicles might be located, and a UAV or Special Forces soldier or other aircraft or ground vehicle might lase a target momentarily to highlight its location and position for the missile to then target using IR guidance or TV guidance depending on the conditions.

    Communication between the tank firing the round and the asset with eyes on target means when the round is fired its time to position where it can see its target can be fairly precisely calculated and in that fraction of a second the asset can lase the target in a fraction of a second to identify the priority target for the missile in flight.

    Optical sights are passive and don't give away the missiles presence so it can be looking from just after launch for targets... the laser beam riding function could be used after launch to cause the missile to rapidly climb to a much greater height than elevation of the gun alone could achieve.

    All very interesting... their work with scramjet technology perhaps might lead to the point where instead of a rocket motor they can achieve better performance with a scramjet motor instead... imagine a diving top attack 2km/s kinetic penetrator...

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