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    Russia New ABM Systems

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    eridan
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  eridan on Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:26 pm

    That speed suggests s500 is designed to cope against ICBM's warheads. Basically you don't even need anything that can defeat even faster targets as 7 km/s is about as fast as one can go even with fastest warheads hurling down from LEO.

    Which brings me to pose the question: is s-500 then part of a-235? Especially if s500 is a mobile system - does one even need ANYTHING else for ABM role next to such a system?
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:19 pm

    eridan wrote:That speed suggests s500 is designed to cope against ICBM's warheads. Basically you don't even need anything that can defeat even faster targets as 7 km/s is about as fast as one can go even with fastest warheads hurling down from LEO.

    Which brings me to pose the question: is s-500 then part of a-235? Especially if s500 is a mobile system - does one even need ANYTHING else for ABM role next to such a system?

    What do you mean part of it? S-500 is one system and A-225 is another one. Both will serve the same purpose in form of Russian national defense system (anti-ICBM) but S-500 will have

    another important role to play - to shoot down hypersonic Mach 20, 20km-80km altitude cruise missiles which will come in form of much higher threat in the near future.

    now here are some interesting things about S-500 from RT

    The country’s latest state-of-the-art air defense system currently at the research and development stage – the S500 – will also appear in 2017, the deputy defense minister told RSN radio. It is an advanced version of its predecessor – the S400 and is designed to lock on to and intercept multiple ballistic missiles in seconds. It possesses the ability to operate at an altitude of up to 124 miles.

    http://rt.com/news/226003-russia-heavy-military-drone/

    we have the altitude and its 200km .... as suspected before

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:22 am

    Quite true.... if the S-400 has a big 2,500km range AESA then that alone could be directed at a cloud of robot unmanned aircraft and fry them with an enormous amount of EM energy.

    regarding the difference between A235 and S-500... the A235 is an evolution of the Moscow ABM system, and despite the photo of the truck mounted missiles it probably wont be mobile.

    The previous system had a truck like that and it backed up to a missile silo, elevated the missile to vertical and then lowered the missile down into the silo for launch.

    the S-500 will be like the S-300 in that it is a mobile TEL able to stop and launch missiles from the truck.

    Performance figures will be quite different too... the A235 can probably reach up much higher... being a larger weapon.

    With the ABM treaty gone the Russians could build an ABM system based on the A235 in every major Russian city and port.

    S-500 will be mobile and will be able to be deployed to fill gaps when needed... even protect allies...


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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Quite true.... if the S-400 has a big 2,500km range AESA then that alone could be directed at a cloud of robot unmanned aircraft and fry them with an enormous amount of EM energy.

    regarding the difference between A235 and S-500... the A235 is an evolution of the Moscow ABM system, and despite the photo of the truck mounted missiles it probably wont be mobile.

    The previous system had a truck like that and it backed up to a missile silo, elevated the missile to vertical and then lowered the missile down into the silo for launch.

    the S-500 will be like the S-300 in that it is a mobile TEL able to stop and launch missiles from the truck.

    Performance figures will be quite different too... the A235 can probably reach up much higher... being a larger weapon.

    With the ABM treaty gone the Russians could build an ABM system based on the A235 in every major Russian city and port.

    S-500 will be mobile and will be able to be deployed to fill gaps when needed... even protect allies...

    Wasn't already a vehicle posted that is based on S-300 high coverage radar that is an EMP weapon with 300km range that can turn off aircrafts electronics?
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Quite true.... if the S-400 has a big 2,500km range AESA then that alone could be directed at a cloud of robot unmanned aircraft and fry them with an enormous amount of EM energy.

    If what you say is true, then it means the likes of S-400 is far less susceptible to swarm tactics than we were usually led to believe. However, with that being said Russian aerospace defense doctrine is to always have 'insurance' and not one to take chances, even if the S-400 has immense ECM weapon capability to defeat swarming/saturation attacks their still will be medium range, SHORAD units to defend S-400 units.

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    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:39 pm

    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:39 am

    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?

    A-235 is not mobile, it is silo based and will be enormous.

    The S-500 is much smaller and highly mobile and will likely be used on ships as well as land.

    7km/s was not picked at random as a parameter for the S-500 system... and I suspect despite the figures given as 7km/s for S-500 that the actual missiles and later upgrades will be able to exceed this performance over time...


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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:54 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?

    A-235 is not mobile, it is silo based and will be enormous.

    The S-500 is much smaller and highly mobile and will likely be used on ships as well as land.

    7km/s was not picked at random as a parameter for the S-500 system... and I suspect despite the figures given as 7km/s for S-500 that the actual missiles and later upgrades will be able to exceed this performance over time...

    I am sure no parameters are chosen just by random but only was wondering if ceiling is comparable why build A-235. unless it is not...W Why only Moscow has A-135 and no other cities like St. Petersburg?


    A-135 missile and they say size does not matter but technique but here technique comes with size Smile
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:10 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?

    A-235 is not mobile, it is silo based and will be enormous.

    The S-500 is much smaller and highly mobile and will likely be used on ships as well as land.

    7km/s was not picked at random as a parameter for the S-500 system... and I suspect despite the figures given as 7km/s for S-500 that the actual missiles and later upgrades will be able to exceed this performance over time...

    I am sure no parameters are chosen just by random but only was wondering if ceiling is comparable why build A-235. unless it is not...W Why only Moscow has A-135 and no other cities like St. Petersburg?


    A-135 missile and  they say size does not matter but technique but here technique comes with size Smile

    Because of the ABM treaty with the US. They had to choose just one area to protect by ABM and agreed to not deploy a global ABM that cover the country because it could restart the armement race.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:12 pm

    Isos wrote:Because of the ABM treaty with the US. They had to choose just one area to protect by ABM and agreed to not deploy a global ABM that cover the country because it could restart the armement race.


    ABM treaty isn´t dead ? like ABM in Poland or Alaska is the same base?
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:44 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:Because of the ABM treaty with the US. They had to choose just one area to protect by ABM and agreed to not deploy a global ABM that cover the country because it could restart the armement race.


    ABM treaty isn´t dead ? like ABM in Poland or Alaska is the same base?

    Yes it is. USA removed from the treaty in 2001.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:43 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:Because of the ABM treaty with the US. They had to choose just one area to protect by ABM and agreed to not deploy a global ABM that cover the country because it could restart the armement race.


    ABM treaty isn´t dead ? like ABM in Poland or Alaska is the same base?

    Yes it is. USA removed from the treaty in 2001.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty


    OK so why not to add more A-235 sites? St Petersburg and other biggest prod/scientific centers? Are there costs so prohibitive?

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  fragmachine on Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:30 pm

    Russians could and IMO should deploy more A-235. After all they could state that it was so to protect Russia against Israeli nukes lol1

    Amurica just does the same with Iran, maybe an installation in Kaliningrad would help them to come to their senses.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:37 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:Because of the ABM treaty with the US. They had to choose just one area to protect by ABM and agreed to not deploy a global ABM that cover the country because it could restart the armement race.


    ABM treaty isn´t dead ? like ABM in Poland or Alaska is the same base?

    Yes it is. USA removed from the treaty in 2001.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty


    OK so why not to add  more A-235 sites? St Petersburg and other biggest prod/scientific centers? Are there costs so prohibitive?

    The S-500 will be the next russian ABM.

    I don't know if the S-500 can replace a system like the A-235 because if you compare their hardware, it's completly diferent. Maybe someone could answers you better than me.

    http://missilethreat.com/defense-systems/a-235-samolet-m/ Look at the missile of the A-235 ...

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:30 am

    I am sure no parameters are chosen just by random but only was wondering if ceiling is comparable why build A-235.

    Because the A-135 system exists and it is cheaper to upgrade it than scrap it all and replace it with a completely new system.

    Also the Moscow ABM system has been operational for decades... it has been tested regularly and should do the job, so why dismantle it?

    Why only Moscow has A-135 and no other cities like St. Petersburg?

    The ABM treaty of 1972 allows only one ABM system for Soviet Union and US that can be sited to protect and ICBM field or the capital city.

    Now the ABM treaty is no more Russia is likely to build ABM systems around its major cities... whether it builds A-235s for cities and fixed assets like major airfields etc or just uses S-500s is up for question.

    The obvious advantage of A-235 is that at no point could it be called away to defend something else like an S-500 battery could.

    The major ports like the northern fleet might get S-500 protection from the cruisers in port there... but what happens to that protection when those cruisers put to sea?
    A-235 would keep protecting the area even when all ships are at sea.


    OK so why not to add more A-235 sites? St Petersburg and other biggest prod/scientific centers? Are there costs so prohibitive?

    The Moscow ABM system is expensive... I expect they will likely wait to find out how successful the S-500 before the decide whether to make lots of S-500s or lots of A-235 or both.

    It should be pointed out that the Moscow ABM system was never expected to completely protect Moscow. It was only ever intended to stop shorter range weapons to allow more time to send the order to troops to launch Soviet nuclear weapons. Missiles like SLBMs or missiles from Europe (ie UK or French) could get to Moscow in a couple of minutes depending upon where they are fired from so the ABM system around Moscow was intended to stop them and allow the attack command to get out and launch the Soviet retaliation strike...



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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:11 am

    GarryB wrote:


    OK so why not to add more A-235 sites? St Petersburg and other biggest prod/scientific centers? Are there costs so prohibitive?

    The Moscow ABM system is expensive... I expect they will likely wait to find out how successful the S-500 before the decide whether to make lots of S-500s or lots of A-235 or both.


    of you´re so pessimistic. S-500 will be as good as thy want - if not in first iteration then next. Finally Bulava was not ideal form first time Smile

    GarryB wrote:
    It should be pointed out that the Moscow ABM system was never expected to completely protect Moscow. It was only ever intended to stop shorter range weapons to allow more time to send the order to troops to launch Soviet nuclear weapons. Missiles like SLBMs or missiles from Europe (ie UK or French) could get to Moscow in a couple of minutes depending upon where they are fired from so the ABM system around Moscow was intended to stop them and allow the attack command to get out and launch the Soviet retaliation strike...


    Hmm so now S-500 is also not meant to protect (if not fully then) only a part of important objects? I hope not. Then S-500 concept is to protect as good as possible against destruction of important cities/labs/prod facilities or military bases.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:37 am

    of you´re so pessimistic. S-500 will be as good as thy want - if not in first iteration then next. Finally Bulava was not ideal form first time

    A-135 is a tested and proven system... the question to be answered is whether A-235 is better than S-500 and we can't really tell till they are fully tested.... it might be that the A-235 is better for large area fixed locations while the S-500s mobility is useful on its own even if it is less capable...

    Hmm so now S-500 is also not meant to protect (if not fully then) only a part of important objects? I hope not. Then S-500 concept is to protect as good as possible against destruction of important cities/labs/prod facilities or military bases.

    It will be intended to shoot down incoming ballistic threats. Whether it is 100% effective 100% of the time is the other question... it will certainly be superior to nothing. It will be no impenetrable force field however.

    lol well right journalists do go over board and we

    You can say that again... the article describes the S-400 system has having three missiles with a max range of 150km... yeah right... late model S-300s have a range of over 250km...

    Presumably the three missiles in the S-400 system are the medium and small missiles with 150km and 60km ranges and the big missile with the 400km range.


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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:57 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Why to develop S-500 and A-235 is both have similar characteristics?







    Not an expert in what each one does.. but by looking at the design alone you can
    notice major differences just with pure observation.

    A-135 and A-235 are purely fixed silo position , looks like a giant kinetic bullet.
    and its designed for speed and interception ,many say is a hit to kill missile and its looks like
    that. If you look at the head of the missile is like a spear with no sensors or guidance.
    So it pretty much looks like an unguided kinetic missile and apparently have a nuclear warhead too.. according to wiki. This means that they are not like missiles but more like Anti ICBM artillery. To intercept nukes in the final phase 30km away of the target. So A-135 and A-235
    can be said to be final phase anti ICBM artillery. Something like Active defense Arena for nukes.
    It sacrifice range and maneuverability for speed and with the nuclear warhead it will defeat any missile and its decoys that comes close to it.

    S-500 in the other hand are anti air +anti space missile. and can be used against anything that fly and is big. Does not use nukes but conventional warhead.. and it have sensors ,to chase things.

    That said it looks the S-500 is a mid course ,any altitude air+space interceptor.
    can be used against anything ,and the A-135 and A-235 is a final course anti ICBM artillery interceptor and can only target things withing 30km of distance of its deployment.

    So S-500 target first nukes on its mid course before it deploy its decoys and if they fail.. the A-235 will intercept any ICBM that deploys its decoy defenses using a nuclear warhead. Both have its uses and its place and i don't think neither one replace the other.

    S-400s in the other hand can probably do similar to the S-500 but with a more limited altitude range of interception. Apparently is 180km altitude ,which is not enough to intercept high altitude ICBM in space .

    In theory if Russia had enough A-135 and A-235 it will handle any Trident mas attack without problems. because a nuclear warhead will wipe completely any missile and its defenses.. since target a wide area the nuclear warhead.

    In real practice any system of defense in the world can be overwhelmed.. including Americans ones. So to fully defend against a mass nuclear attack of a thousand of missiles from Russia and USA is looks like wishful thinking with the weapons they have today.

    Russia however is doing something very interesting with Electronic Jamming , KRET is developing a system to neutralize satellites and ICBMs in space, This means that its guidance will be dead and it will be impossible to have any accuracy. So a missile aiming Moscow could end in SIberia.. etc. Or if they take things to a new level it could destroy all the electronics of any American ICBM so it doesn't explode. So is not clear what kind of level of protection Kret company in Russia is aiming with its space counter electronic warfare. If they are successful if neutralizing ICBM electronics it will be like the invention of Powder and the plane. Truly game changing and tip the balance enourmously in Russia favor in a nuclear war. All said. Electromagnetic radioelectric weapons have a lot of future.. same can be said about lazer guns.
    But radioelectric space weapons seems much more elegant ,stealthy and powerful since it target big areas at same time While lazers you need to aim directly at individual targets and require insane levels of Energy.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 04, 2016 9:20 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    S-500:

    - 200+km in height
    - 600+km in distance
    - 10 targets at the same time
    - aerodynamic targets and ballistic targets
    - high mobility


    S-350:

    - 30km in height
    - 120km in distance
    - 16 targets at the same time with 32 missiles


    Russia's Deadly S-500 Air-Defense System: Ready for War at 660,000 Feet

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Austin on Thu May 05, 2016 8:32 am

    I would take the numbers provided by NI for S-500 with bunch of salt , We really dont have much info on the system yet

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri May 06, 2016 3:16 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice thumbsup

    S-500:

    - 200+km in height
    - 600+km in distance
    - 10 targets at the same time
    - aerodynamic targets and ballistic targets
    - high mobility


    S-350:

    - 30km in height
    - 120km in distance
    - 16 targets at the same time with 32 missiles


    Russia's Deadly S-500 Air-Defense System: Ready for War at 660,000 Feet


    These parameters doesn't make sense.

    The main radar of the S-wathever is capable to see a zepelin sized target from 600km with a minimum altitude of 10-20 km.
    From the other side it is extremly hard to intercept a ballistic missile above 100km.


    so the most probable is these parameters are the theoretical maximu range , so it can go up 200 km, but at that point the interceptor will have 0 kinetic energy, and for 600 km it can be used maximum as a ballistic missile.

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  max steel on Fri May 06, 2016 5:32 pm

    It was written by Dave Majumdar for National Interest. He writes sensationalist BS.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  kvs on Sat May 07, 2016 4:59 am

    The S-500 will have hypersonic ABM missiles designed to intercept ICBM warheads. This is culmination of development since the
    1960s. The A-135 51T6 missile can now be made much smaller thanks to improvements in solid rocket fuel characteristics.

    People love to fob off nanotech as a gimmick but in reality it is vital. Producing a powder of nanoparticles has some extraordinary
    properties. For example, aluminum nanoparticle powder will burn in pure CO2. Just try and burn coarser aluminum powder or pieces
    in pure CO2 and see how far you get. So solid rocket fuel innovation is not just about coming up with new chemical formulas. It is
    also about the nanophysics (formerly microphysics) of the fuel preparation and the associated combustion dynamics.

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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat May 07, 2016 10:15 am

    kvs wrote:The S-500 will have hypersonic ABM missiles designed to intercept ICBM warheads. This is culmination of development since the
    1960s. The A-135 51T6 missile can now be made much smaller thanks to improvements in solid rocket fuel characteristics.

    People love to fob off nanotech as a gimmick but in reality it is vital. Producing a powder of nanoparticles has some extraordinary
    properties. For example, aluminum nanoparticle powder will burn in pure CO2. Just try and burn coarser aluminum powder or pieces
    in pure CO2 and see how far you get. So solid rocket fuel innovation is not just about coming up with new chemical formulas. It is
    also about the nanophysics (formerly microphysics) of the fuel preparation and the associated combustion dynamics.

    200 km maximum altited means minimum 2000 m/sec velocity.(without considering the air friction)

    However this means that at 100km the rocket has only 600 m/sec, insufficient to intercept anything as fast as an ICBM,even with nuclear warhead.
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    Re: Russia New ABM Systems

    Post  max steel on Sat May 07, 2016 4:16 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:

    200 km maximum altited means minimum 2000 m/sec velocity.(without considering the air friction)

    However this means that at 100km the rocket has only 600 m/sec, insufficient to intercept anything as fast as an ICBM,even with nuclear warhead.

    S-500 missile will travel at 7 km/s. Is it enough to trget icbms ? because re-entry vehicle travel at 8-9 km/sec. dunno

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