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    Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

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    Vote (multiple choice allowed), for the foreign ships in the Russian Navy that are to keep transfering them to other non military gouvernmental agencies, and leave without vote the ships for selling or decommissioning and scrapping, by the end of 2025.

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    Total Votes: 8
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    eehnie

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    Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Tue May 30, 2017 1:22 am

    Since the War in Donbass, emerged for Russia a problem with sanctions to foreign contries. It has been a problem of limited impact for Russia, because the country always has been working its defense industry, leaving little room to dependence of foreign imports.

    In the refered to the Russian Navy, there is some impact on components (like engines,...), that Russia is working to eliminate, but only a few complete ships are of foreign origin, and all are auxiliary ships, not combat ships. Obviously the position of these ships of foreign origin is under question. Likely these ships will be out of the Russian Navy in the short term, but the question is what to do with them? Also we can give an opinion here, using one of the tools of this forum, the polls.

    It is necessary to note what is considered a foreign ship. Ships of Sovietic/Russian design are not considered foreign ships, despite to be built sometimes outside of Russia or even out of the Soviet Union, in countries that were in good terms with Russia and the Soviet Union at the time.

    In the other side, foreign designs are considered foreign ships, because it would be more problem for repairs and to have spare parts, even in the case of partial production in Russia or the Soviet Union.

    Also it is necessary to note that shipborne boats and midget submarines are not considered independent ships, are considered components of a bigger unit. If they are of foreign origin, they are treated as foreign components.

    Taking it into account, the list of foreign ships in the Russian Navy is low today. 41 of the 1025 ships of the Russian Navy (including the 18 combat and auxiliary ships captured to Ukraine and the 13 combat ships of the Russian Coast Guard). It means only a 4.00% of the total fleet of the Russian Navy.

    Some reference with pictures of the foreign ships:


    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1985 Dvinitsa-50 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/54458/
    March 31, 2017

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1985 Vologda-50 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/54485/
    April 12, 2017

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1996 Kyzyl-60 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/55363/
    March 31, 2017

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1987 Kazan-60 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/16128/
    March 31, 2017



    Type Dora: 1941 Istra http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6223/ (Captured to Germany in WWII)
    October 12, 2017



    Type PPEK-30: 19?? PK-16030 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10295/
    March 25, 2013

    Type PPEK-30: 1959 PK-103130 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/40785/
    January 20, 2017



    Type Dubna: 1974 Dubna http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/68854/ http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:930618/mmsi:-7347471/imo:7347471/vessel:DUBNA
    June 20, 2015

    Type Dubna: 1975 Irkut http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/26060/
    March 12, 2014

    Type Dubna: 1979 Pechenga http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6375/
    March 22, 2016



    Type Paltus: 1980 PK-1150 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/45784/
    November 27, 2014



    Project REF-675: 1982 Kama http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/12009/
    May 13, 2016 (black ship in the center)

    Project REF-675: 1982 Vyazma http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42747/
    October 23, 2015



    Project D-9030: 1976 PK-119025 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/4926/
    September 14, 2015



    Project D-9021: 198? PK-33016 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/34964/
    June 10, 2018 (floating crane after the ship)



    Project SK620: 1978 Belomorets http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6308/
    June 1, 2017

    Project SK620: 1980 PSK-405 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10392/
    December 22, 2016

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-2017 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/34799/
    November 13, 2011

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-1304 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/44610/
    July 30, 2017

    Project SK620: 1983 EK-1412 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42817/
    July 27, 2017

    Project SK620: 1985 PSK-1562 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/56311/
    July 12, 2017

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-1556 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/60223/
    April 23, 2016

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-302 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/73679/
    July 30, 2017



    Project REF-100: 1985 GS-525 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/41469/
    February 17, 2017

    Project REF-100: 1985 GS-526 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/46939/
    April 4, 2015



    Project N3291: 1988 RB-346 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/1398/
    October 4, 2017

    Project N3291: 1988 RB-347 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/2053/
    August 15, 2009

    Project N3291: 1988 RB-348 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/1631/
    May 27, 2017



    Project R-5757: 1989 Nikolay Chiker http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/29166/
    September 18,2015

    Project R-5757: 1989 Fotiy Krylov http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/39062/
    March 17, 2016



    Project UK-3: 1982  UK-115 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10829/
    July 26,2015

    Project UK-3: 19??  UK-162 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10827/
    March 5, 2015

    Project UK-3: 1983  UK-712 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6464/
    June 6, 2010 (ship 229)

    Project UK-3: 1990  UK-164 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/38120/
    October 18, 2013 (ship 164)

    Project UK-3: 19??  UK-288 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/38121/
    October 18, 2013 (ship 288)



    Project V92: 1983 Evgenij Gorigledzhan http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/59302/ (Modified in 2016 to a Project 02670 ship)
    2016 or 2017

    Project V92: 1990 Kalar http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/24461/
    March 14, 2016



    Project D-9040 V-02: 1989 PK-128035 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/47028/
    May 10, 2016



    Project V-820: 19?? RB-33 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/26210/
    June 22, 2017



    Type IC16MII: 2011 P-834 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42778/
    May 15, 2017

    Type IC16MII: 2011 P-835 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42785/
    October 19, 2016



    With the problems with foreign material and spare parts, it seems logical that Russia want not to keep these ships in the Armed Forces. An exit would be logical, and taking into account the difference on age and state of the ships, different solutions for them are likely.

    In the case of the newest ships and the ships in better condition, an option would be to transfer them to non-military agencies of the gouvernment, that can be related with security issues, but without being part of the Russian Armed Forces. Surely, without being the alone option, the most obvious case would be the Russian Coast Guard, that has itself hundreds of ships of different size and role.

    Also there are options that mean to keep not some ships. it would be possible a sale of some ship to some buyer, local or foreign, or even a transfer as aid to some foreign ally. In the case of the oldest ships and the ships in worst condition, a likely option would be decommission and scrapping process.

    What would you do? (Interesting to check the photographies in the link to every ship).


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:02 am; edited 14 times in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:21 pm

    The sactions to Russia really had not a big impact. This topic covers the refered to the sea material, but also has been very low in other cases. The most significative case maybe the cancellation of the contract for the 2 Mistral Amphibious ships. Even this case more than a problem, is an opportunity for Russia to build the own capability of developing and constructing of the necessary ships in every segment.

    In the current situation, I expect Russia rejects the foreign material present in their own Armed Forces. Doing it Russia would prove that their defense level and standards depend not of foreign material, and would avoid external critizism and propaganda about the damage of the foreign sanctions and about the dependence of their defense industry of foreign supplies.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:03 pm

    Those are support ships. They are build and used. It's not important from where they come if they do the job. I don't know who build them but it's probably former USSR countries. I don't think they will sell lot of them to US or NATO so they should be nice to Russian navy because if they don't they will end up like Ukrainians, replaced by local russian production and they will sell 0 more ships.

    They are not hard to build but russia is focusing on armed ships. They are just pieces of metal with 0 technology. They needed some of them fast for Syria but if they want to replace them they can easily make them.

    Moreover, once you have them you won't depend on the country who sold it to you like it is the case with armed ships which need missiles to be replace or maintenance or electronic upgrade.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:04 pm

    In this case no-one of the ships mentioned was produced in Russia or the Soviet Union. It were produced in Finland, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Poland Turkey and China.

    To be not Russian designs can create some problems. As example, it makes less likely that Russian spare parts can be compatible, and to produce them specifically for these ships would be more expensive, even too expensive in some case.

    As commented in the poll, there is also a chance to keep the cited ships demilitarized, by transference to other gouvernmental agencies. It would mean no economic impact for the Russian treasury. It makes less likely that Russia keeps them in their Armed Forces after 2025. But until now no-one has been taking this option in the poll for no-one of the groups cited (in case of not options selected the system allows not to submit a vote).

    I expect Russia continues using foreign material for civil purposes, I agree with you on this, but at this point is not likely that Russia keeps foreign material in the Russian Armed Forces, despite to be auxiliary material, because there countries ready to use it to discredit the Russian Armed Forces. Russia only will be able to make evident (without discussion) their lack of dependence of foreign material just retiring it.
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    Isos

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:48 pm

    Even US navy uses foreign ships. Sometimes it's better to buy instead of making. If they want to make by themselves they will need to invest money for design and to build and test ... while they can buy Something already proven. I don't think spare parts are a problem for civilian ships. Navy can buy them with a false company in a banana republic if they are under sanctions ... There are lot of companies that are Under African flags to pay less taxes in their own countries, it won't be difficult to do so.

    What they should do however is to order them with a plateform to operate the new Tor variant tested on the Grigorovitch. It would give them same air def capabilities as Udaloy destroyer and could protect themselves or a add another line of def to a battlegroup (on a tanker for exemple).
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:41 am


    The trend in Russia in the last years is to produce, to replace foreign material by own designs. We can see it clearly in the case of the components. In the case of heavy material there is a lack of orders, and even the cancellation of some order (like in the case of the Mistral ships).

    The current foreign ships in the Russian Armed forces, are of the Sovietic period except the last, and are not difficult to replace for Russia, like we can see in the previous list. They are very generic ships in the refered to their role. Even, some of them likely do not need replacement.

    With the spare parts it is possible that these ships give some problem. As example, if it is necessary a replacement of the engine, it is possible that a Russian alternative do not meet the dimmensional requirements of the place where it must go, or can not be connected to other parts because differences of design. It is likely that some spare parts for these ships that are not common in Russia must be done (designed and fabricated) for the reparation. Sometimes may be easy, but other times it can become expensive, even too expensive (lack of important spare parts can send some ship to scrapping).
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:03 pm

    The status of the ships of the Project UK-3 is the most difficult to follow in this group.

    If someone knows something, it would be interesting to read.
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    George1

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:15 pm

    eehnie wrote:The status of the ships of the Project UK-3 is the most difficult to follow in this group.

    If someone knows something, it would be interesting to read.

    these are training boats. All these ships are auxilliary vessels that already are being replaced by new Russian projects

    a page with some info is this:
    http://russianships.info/eng/support/project_uk3.htm
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 pm

    George1 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The status of the ships of the Project UK-3 is the most difficult to follow in this group.

    If someone knows something, it would be interesting to read.

    these are training boats. All these ships are auxilliary vessels that already are being replaced by new Russian projects

    a page with some info is this:
    http://russianships.info/eng/support/project_uk3.htm

    Yes it is a good source. In the post of the begin of this topic I used a combination of these 3 sources for the ship:

    http://russianships.info/eng/support/project_uk3.htm
    http://fleetphoto.ru/projects/1197/
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8

    I included the common part, but there are differences between the 3 sources.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  eehnie on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:15 pm

    Pictures of the foreign ships updated:


    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1985 Dvinitsa-50 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/54458/
    January 20, 2018

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1985 Vologda-50 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/54485/
    January 20, 2018 (black ship)

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1996 Kyzyl-60 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/55363/
    February 20, 2018

    Dry-cargo ships purchased for the operation in Syria: 1987 Kazan-60 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/16128/
    February 7, 2018



    Type Dora: 1941 Istra http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6223/ (Captured to Germany in WWII)
    October 12, 2017



    Type PPEK-30: 19?? PK-16030 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10295/
    March 25, 2013

    Type PPEK-30: 1959 PK-103130 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/40785/
    January 20, 2017



    Type Dubna: 1974 Dubna http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/68854/ http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:930618/mmsi:-7347471/imo:7347471/vessel:DUBNA
    July 28, 2017

    Type Dubna: 1975 Irkut http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/26060/
    December 20, 2017

    Type Dubna: 1979 Pechenga http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6375/
    February 9, 2018



    Type Paltus: 1980 PK-1150 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/45784/
    November 27, 2014



    Project REF-675: 1982 Kama http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/12009/
    May 13, 2016 (black ship in the center)

    Project REF-675: 1982 Vyazma http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42747/
    October 23, 2015



    Project D-9030: 1976 PK-119025 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/4926/
    July 20, 3018



    Project D-9021: 198? PK-33016 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/34964/
    June 10, 2018 (floating crane after the ship)



    Project SK620: 1978 Belomorets http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6308/
    June 1, 2017

    Project SK620: 1980 PSK-405 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10392/
    April 29, 2018

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-2017 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/34799/
    November 13, 2011

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-1304 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/44610/
    July 30, 2017

    Project SK620: 1983 EK-1412 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42817/
    July 27, 2017

    Project SK620: 1985 PSK-1562 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/56311/
    July 6, 2018

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-1556 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/60223/
    April 23, 2016

    Project SK620: 19?? PSK-302 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/73679/
    July 30, 2017



    Project REF-100: 1985 GS-525 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/41469/
    October 4, 2017

    Project REF-100: 1985 GS-526 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/46939/
    April 4, 2015



    Project N3291: 1988 RB-346 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/1398/
    July 6, 2018

    Project N3291: 1988 RB-347 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/2053/
    June 16, 2018

    Project N3291: 1988 RB-348 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/1631/
    April 27, 2018



    Project R-5757: 1989 Nikolay Chiker http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/29166/
    September 18, 2015

    Project R-5757: 1989 Fotiy Krylov http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/39062/
    March 17, 2016



    Project UK-3: 1982  UK-115 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10829/
    July 26, 2015

    Project UK-3: 19??  UK-162 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/10827/
    March 5, 2015

    Project UK-3: 1983  UK-712 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/6464/
    June 6, 2010 (ship 229)

    Project UK-3: 1990  UK-164 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/38120/
    October 18, 2013 (ship 164)

    Project UK-3: 19??  UK-288 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/38121/
    October 18, 2013 (ship 288)



    Project V92: 1983 Evgenij Gorigledzhan http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/59302/ (Modified in 2016 to a Project 02670 ship)
    2016 or 2017

    Project V92: 1990 Kalar http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/24461/
    December 20, 2017



    Project D-9040 V-02: 1989 PK-128035 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/47028/
    May 10, 2016



    Project V-820: 19?? RB-33 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/26210/
    June 22, 2017



    Type IC16MII: 2011 P-834 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42778/
    May 25, 2018

    Type IC16MII: 2011 P-835 http://fleetphoto.ru/ship/42785/
    April 17, 2018


    To note that the ships of the Project UK-3 are the ships with oldest pictures, which is not a good sign.


    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:30 pm; edited 7 times in total
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    runaway

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  runaway on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:41 pm

    Dry cargo ships is no point having left after Syrian operation is complete. However, that seems no to happen for some years to come so keep the ships until they are not needed and then sell them of.
    Patrol ships and tugs will always be needed somewhere so just relocate them.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:13 am

    Indeed... if you need some then buying them off the commercial market makes sense in terms of availability... and when that need is over you can evaluate the performance of each type and decide what sort of new build vessels would be generally useful and build them in your own time.

    A bit like flying in to a new city you might be in for a month or possibly longer... start by renting a car or buying a super cheap second hand car until you know what you want and need and then sell it and buy a better suiting car.

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    Re: Future of the Foreign sea material in the Russian Armed Forces

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