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    How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:33 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    I know that one, couldn't find it either, but this is the closest one.

    Ah cheers man, pretty sure that's the one. I thought it was Lockheed-Martin rather than Raytheon, probably why I couldn't find it.

    KiloGolf wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?
    I thought Nebo-M was already deployed with a few S-400 regiments...? Idk though, I'm a bit of an ignoramus, maybe someone else can answer this?


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total

    Vann7

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:06 pm

    [quote="OminousSpudd"]
    sepheronx wrote:Thats the thing.  Russia has multitude of systems at its disposal to deal with major threats.


    There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.


    Oh yeah.. saw that video..
    But the video have many major flaws..

    The major one is that 1)the decoys ,that Americans plans to use ,to overwhelm S-400 missiles
    if they do it correctly ,and Russia sensors not , it also works both ways. This means that S-400s
    defenses can also use decoys to fool missiles trying to destroy it. this is pretty basic technology and pretty effective. it will confuse the real target of any anti radiation missile. seeking to destroy an S-400 target.  Another one is that 2) S-400s will never work alone ,there will be pantsirs with infrared optics destroying any missile moving in the direction of the s-400. it will not care about decoys , it will hit the real missile ,because decoys do not travel with precision hundreds of miles towards the target it wants to destroy , it only works around the plane it wants to protect. So the real missile will be intercepted by a network of pantsirs or Tors defenses.  3) It also Ignores the range of those anti radiation missiles.vs range or S-400s. So a plane trying to target in Russia an S-400 ,will have to go 100km to 150km close to the air defense first. While the S-400 can target not only the missile ,but also the plane who launched it ,and the AWAC that is guiding the missile all the way to 400km away. So it will be a real nightmare how to get close to an S-400 in a place like Russia main land. because a network of many other defenses will have to bypassed first that are even more deadlier. NATO airforce will have to literary fly over pantsirs and Tors positions where it will be an easy target. Cannot fly very high because will be visible to any radar ,and if fly very low will be easy target to manpads or regular air defenses. so doomed either way.

    4)Finally and not least. It totally ignores the Russia Airforce that will be alerted of any hostile plane getting close to its borders. So the video totally ignores the range of the missile is shorter
    than the range of S-400 ,so the plane launching the missile will be on target range for Russia air defenses and Russia airforce too first. and when it get close to the borders it will be at range of pantsirs and tors. good luck with that. only an ISIS or Alqaeda pilot who wants to die ,will be so foolish to try to defeat an S-400 with a plane.

    and if all that was not difficult enough.
    5)NATO will need to deal with Russia counter electronics defenses. that not only will overwhelm
    the signals the missile receive for corrections ,so will lose communications with any AWAC, or cargo plane. but also it have been said Russia can jam GPS navigation. Look how easy US airforce lost one of its best stealth planes to IRAN ,using just soviet generation of counter electronics provided by Russia.

    To target an S-400 you will need a ballistic missile like ISkander or upgraded Toschka . flying in near earth-space lower orbit will move away of any jamming bubble. and it will do a 90 degree turn over the head of any target it wants to destroy ,and will be guided by satellites almost close to the last 10 seconds it impact. cruise missile highly resistant to jamming could do it too. but no idea how good  are kalibrs missiles defeating counter electronics. Always the advantage will be to Ground radars and Ground jamming over the electronics inside a small warhead in a missile. also another thing that can do the job is lazer guided long range artillery. that only Russia have. But you will need special forces inside enemy territory ,and withing visual distance of the air defense system to guide it.

    All things said. it seems the most advanced are the jamming and counter defenses ,the less effective airforce will be in beyond visual range. this is truth for NATO and for Russia too. and it will go down to visual fights ,and visual bombing either stealth planes that enters very fast and leave ,flying hugging terrain and hope no pantsir or no manpads anywhere there. or long range lazer precision artillery. long range rocket artillery can be very effective too ,or ballistic attacks.
    that was was disable Georgia air defenses. Toschka and Iskanders.

    None of this NATO scenarios are realistic. Even if Russia did not had any air defense at all and all its had was thousands of nuclear missiles. it cannot happen. because it did not take into account ,that if NATO bombs Russia , then Russia will have full freedom to retaliate and pick a target that will truly hurt. , lets say NATO destroy a weapons storage depot in Russia with a missile killing a dozen of soldiers. then Russia can retaliate sinking a warship with hundreds of sailors or a submarine that is more costly. So the deterrence of the retaliation ,what will come next is never used in any defense industry video.

    and all this pentagon simulations are only about a first strike surprise attack.and do not have a follow up strategy ,what will happen next ? after NATO attacks a military base in Russia? thats the question that will collapse any strategy or simulation ,unless they are ready to start a full scale war with Russia and risk it goes nuclear.
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    Viktor

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:47 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:

    It is a bit more complicated than that.


    The strenght of  electromagnetic field and the distance has quadratic relationship, means if you decrease the distance to the third then you need one magnitude less power to has the same signal strenght.

    So, if you have a cheap (million dollar range) jammer, then you can affor do send it next to the radar,and there the operator either shoot down the cheap drone, or they can't see part of the sky.


    Other side, if a B-2 going into russia then it can carry twnety of these jammers, dispersing them on the way like candy , blinding out the radars.

    The only protection against this kind of jamming (or as matter of face agains any kind of jamming) is if you use multiple radar,overlapping each others.

    Main problem is finding targets to blinde or shoot at. To do that you need intelligence and to gather information you need to be close to protected airspace and no one has

    100 intelligence gathering aircraft Very Happy

    sepheronx wrote:You need real high energy output in order to jam newer radars.  Take a look how Russia tried to jam the S-300 radar systems of old.  They were supposedly only ones successful in it and they used an Il-76 modified in EW mode. According to Militarov, they managed to jam themselves (aircraft) so it isn't an effective system.  Ground systems have easier access to high amounts of energy over flying objects.  All in all, having little missiles to jam a radar is rather stupid and expensive system over just simply sustain fire on a position with anti-radiation missiles or other guided munitions.

    Like before. You need to know where to jamm. Succesfully get close to it and than burn throw Russsian engagement radar sets dispersed throughout out wide area, jam throughout
    Russian ECCM also and fend of airdefense aviation Very Happy still avoiding Russian ground decoys Very Happy
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    max steel

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:46 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :


    By the way F22 was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.


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    Isos

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  Isos on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:21 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's  KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :By the way F22  was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.



    Well I was talking about a fighter's radar flying higher than the f-22.

    L band radar are known to be efficient in detecting stealth because the Wavelength is like 1-10 m if I remember correctly. However they are not very precise that's why they are not used in fighters : because they can't  lock on a target.

    F-22 stealth is realy great againt X band radars of fighters which have Wavelength of 1-10 cm.

    Now if you have an  AEW&C witha BIG L band radar it will detect the F-22 at very great distance with or without the weapon bay open. The error in the coordinates of the target wll be like 500m-1km (not sur about that but it's Something in these numbers). It can send a fighter to intercept it with it's radars turned off.

    However I've read that US have an upgrade for their naval AWACs which consist in a L band radar that s enough precise to lock on Pak-fa and J-20.
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    max steel

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:37 pm

    An L-Band Radar can't lock precisely on F-22 but it can get it done on T-50 . How come ? Low-band radars like the VHF-band 55Zh6 can see most LO aircraft much easier, yes. Until recently, there wasn't enough accuracy within a low-band radar to make it really mean anything. Now you've got digital VHF-band AESAs like the 55Zh6 that are significantly more capable. Shorter wavelength systems, such as fire control radars, are what the bulk of LO measures are intended to defeat (things like serrated panel edges, faceting, the intake grill of the F-117, etc.). That includes fighter radars, SAM engagement radars, etc. An F-22, F-35, or T-50 is too small to do anything relevant against a VHF-band system, short of putting a meter thick coating of RAM on the things. Given the number of advanced long-wavelength systems appearing and their ability to interface directly with SAM units, the F-35 is a hilarious waste of time. The T-50, not so much, as the US has never really put much effort into VHF-band systems. You need big-ass transmitters for one, making them unsuitable for airborne or naval use.

    Singular_trafo

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    Re: How to counter Smart Decoys like MALD?

    Post  Singular_trafo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:00 pm

    Isos wrote:
    max steel wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's  KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :By the way F22  was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.



    Well I was talking about a fighter's radar flying higher than the f-22.

    L band radar are known to be efficient in detecting stealth because the Wavelength is like 1-10 m if I remember correctly. However they are not very precise that's why they are not used in fighters : because they can't  lock on a target.

    F-22 stealth is realy great againt X band radars of fighters which have Wavelength of 1-10 cm.

    Now if you have an  AEW&C witha BIG L band radar it will detect the F-22 at very great distance with or without the weapon bay open. The error in the coordinates of the target wll be like 500m-1km (not sur about that but it's Something in these numbers). It can send a fighter to intercept it with it's radars turned off.

    However I've read that US have an upgrade for their naval AWACs which consist in a L band radar that s enough precise to lock on Pak-fa and J-20.


    No chance for AWAC fire control radar : )

    The 150 MHz phased array radar isa monster, you can't put that onto an airplane.

    Vann7

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    I want to start a discussion ( maybe a new thread can be made)

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:38 am

    @Singular_trafo
    Other side, if a B-2 going into russia then it can carry twnety of these jammers, dispersing them on the way like candy , blinding out the radars.

    The only protection against this kind of jamming (or as matter of face agains any kind of jamming) is if you use multiple radar,overlapping each others.


    Just remember that stealth Only Reduce the Range a plane is detected using Radio waves.
    It will never be invisible. Even if it have alien technology ,that totally neutralize radars
    it can be shot down.. because....
    If you can see it with your eyes, you can shoot at it. and any combat planet always produce
    a lot of heat. you will burn your hands if you touch the engine of a B2 after it lands. same way with cars. It cannot totally hide it. not even close.

    What all this means ,is that B2 will have No Chance to enter in any part of Russia ,that Russia have air defenses ,not even if it is 100% stealth ,because will be shot down by Pantsirs that use Anti Heat sensor optics that can detect the heat of any stealth planes. heck.. even a manpad
    will shot down a B2 ,that is guided by lazer. or regular anti armor machine gun ,if it fly close to terrain that is the most effective way to hide from radars. Even a kornet-EM missile that is can shot down an B-2. if it is flying under 10km altitude and a soldier see it comming to his way.

    So this is the problem of all American simulations vs S-400. it totally ignores that S-400 never goes alone. it will have Pantsirs ,BUks and Tors defending it. and you might be able to jam
    a missile but not a bullet. and a B-2 might be able to reduce its signal but not totally. All planes produce heat and Noise ,you cannot hide that either.  So things are not as simple and to get a B-2 and start throwing jammers and decoys.  There will be a LOT of many early defenses that
    the B-2 will need to deal ,is a network that is connected. And as soon one soldier visually see a B-2 will call by radio of what he saw and it will be game over. Airforce will be sent to shut down
    the B-2. This is just in the worse case a really bad scenario ,that B-2 manage to hide from radars totally ,is flying low and the InfraRed guided air defenses are broken that day.

    Since more like the job for an Alqaeda suicide mission. Probably the most useless plane American have ..-> B-2. no idea where they plan to fly that.Because will be unable to hide at all. it will be detected ,even if Russian radars fails. it will not be invisible to human eyes or Infra red optics ,of Pantsirs ,and it will need to deal with Russian Airforce too.  then we have Russia counter electronics and jamming and decoys ,that will turn obsolete the american B-2 missiles.
    this is bombs designed in the 60s during the Korean War.  lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

    B-2 is mostly a visual strike Bomber and need to get very close to its target to hit it.
    with Unguided bombs.  Rolling Eyes

    Much more dangerous for Russia than a B-2 will be an F-16 armed with tomahawks with nukes. Americans have thousands of F-16s and they can do a mass attack and launch hundreds of them if not thousands them at the same time.  Reason why Russia will is closely watching
    any NATO "EXercises" Because mass deployment of F-16s or F-15s or F-18s it is a threat for Russia ,is armed with nuclear armed cruise missiles.  The cruise missiles are not hard to defeat.
    but in a mass scale attack ,it can overwhelm any defense. the same is true for Russia .

    Fortunately for Russia ,they have a good jamming system and can create major interference
    in any guidance of cruise missiles ,so their precision will be horrendous. will miss a baseball stadium if not more. depending when is jammed .

    Aside that Russia air defenses can also target missiles ,but a massive first strike attack
    of F-16s armed with nukes will be a major serious danger for Russia. Because failing to intercept just one missile will be terrible. For sure knowing how Americans think and how much hate Russia. it will be a Suicide pilot bomber. that will directly lead the nuke.

    and even more dangerous thing could be a civilian plane armed with nukes. or a container.
    also long range artillery armed with small nukes too.  But B-2 seems more like to fight Russian navy in water or coastal places like a submarine base because will have not a chance to penetrate Russia territory for more than a minute without being shot down.  it will be detected farther from Russia coast .because of its heat signature and noise of its engine.

    All things said , i dont think B-2 is useless or any other stealth plane , it have its place,
    but i don't see the b-2 become undetected any farther than 1-2 minutes of fly inside
    Russia. Probably B-2 will be more useful to attack Russia navy in deep waters or a hit and run attack on Russia coastal zones..

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