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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:50 am

    Thanks
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Thanks

    Every navy has one of these boat. Training torpedos are exactly the same as real ones so if they don't recover them someone, like US navy will get them and learn everything about them because they don't explode and can sustain intact at least at 1000m under the sea.
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    Benya

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Benya on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:27 pm

    Northern Fleet announces big-scale exercise

    It will include about 50 vessels and is held as a preparatory phase to the upcoming «Zapad-2017» drills.

    Ships set out from Northern Fleet headquarters in Severomorsk. Photo: mil.ru

    The Northern Fleet, the most powerful of Russia’s five fleets, is unfolding a special exercise which includes key parts of fleet capacities.

    The drills will be headed directly by Russian Navy Head Commander Vladimir Korolyev and will last «for several days», the Northern Fleet informs.

    Included are about 50 ships, submarines and support vessels. Also aircrafts, helicopters from the Air Force and Air Defense will be deployed, a Navy representative says to Interfax.

    The drills are held as several of the most powerful Northern Fleet vessels are on their way home after participation in a Navy parade outside St.Petersburg.  Among them are battle cruiser «Pyotr Veliky» and typhoon-class submarine «Dmitry Donskoy».

    It is likely that the returning vessels will take part in the exercise.

    In the course of the training, antisubmarine and anti-sabotage activities will be conducted along with navigational, hydrographical, anti-mine and search and rescue operations.

    According to the Navy representatives, the exercise is held as a preparatory phase to the large-scale joint Russian-Belarus drills «Zapad-2017» scheduled for the period 14-20 September.

    Arrow https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2017/08/northern-fleet-announces-big-scale-exercise
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:13 pm

    The Russian Navy is expected to receive four ships in the original diesel-electric version, and then another five boats of an improved project fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/august-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5473-project-677-lead-submarine-st-petersburg-passed-all-russian-navy-tests.html
    Could those first 4 boats later feasibly be back fitted with AIP?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:38 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The Russian Navy is expected to receive four ships in the original diesel-electric version, and then another five boats of an improved project fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/august-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5473-project-677-lead-submarine-st-petersburg-passed-all-russian-navy-tests.html
    Could those first 4 boats later feasibly be back fitted with AIP?

    Most likely, I don't think that there will be any changes to hull design in AIP versions.

    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:50 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The Russian Navy is expected to receive four ships in the original diesel-electric version, and then another five boats of an improved project fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/august-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5473-project-677-lead-submarine-st-petersburg-passed-all-russian-navy-tests.html
    Could those first 4 boats later feasibly be back fitted with AIP?

    Most likely, I don't think that there will be any changes to hull design in AIP versions.
    Mainly a question of having a hole in the hull large enough to get the old out and the new in. Do these diesel-electrics already have the ability to change out their diesel engines? If so that is probably the question answered.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:05 pm

    Can the Kilos be feasibly given AIP? Except those in the BSF, they also operate under ice & could benefit by having it.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:13 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Can the Kilos be feasibly given AIP? Except those in the BSF, they also operate under ice & could benefit by having it.  

    Don't know but for them set of fancy new batteries alone several years from now would do wonders

    I am more interested to see if Lada class will be getting VLS systems

    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Can the Kilos be feasibly given AIP? Except those in the BSF, they also operate under ice & could benefit by having it.  

    Don't know but for them set of fancy new batteries alone several years from now would do wonders

    I am more interested to see if Lada class will be getting VLS systems
    From Benya post above: "We say that the Project 677 diesel-electric submarine is a prototype for the Amur 1650"

    So, as the Lada is going to turn into the Amur 1650 for the Indian 75i project perhaps the spec of that gives us a clue?

    From Wiki

    The Project 75I-class submarines will have a vertical launch system(VLS) to enable them to carry multiple Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles, making the submarines fully capable of anti-surface and anti-ship warfare missions. Project 75I submarines will also be armed with torpedoes and will feature advanced stealth capabilities such as a greater ability to suppress noise and acoustic signatures.[3] Submarines will also be outfitted with Air-independent propulsion (AIP) fuel cells which can significantly increase submerged endurance and operational range.[8]
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Can the Kilos be feasibly given AIP? Except those in the BSF, they also operate under ice & could benefit by having it.
    Don't know but for them set of fancy new batteries alone several years from now would do wonders
    Besides the RF, China, Vietnam, Algeria, Poland, Romania, Iran & India now have 66 Kilos between them & yet none of them were given AIP.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators
    Perhaps it's too expensive &/ there is no suitable AIP that would fit on them?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:01 pm

    The AIP system they are talking about is brand new and uses diesel fuel to power the AIP instead of a separate oxygen and hydrogen tank system.

    Hydrogen requires all new storage and transfer facilities to be built at every port... most modern ports already have diesel transfer and storage facilities already... so the infrastructure for the new Russian AIP system is already built in to every port.

    Not so for modern French or German AIP technology.


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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:22 pm

    Is it using the same principle as http://www.deagel.com/Propulsion-Systems/Stirling-AIP_a001357001.aspx ? I guess it's too time consuming & costly to insert a plug with AIP in all those Kilos! https://trid.trb.org/view/431953 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tze6zgrRJKM
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:45 am

    Not at all... a sterling engine is just an internal combustion engine that runs on liquid oxygen... they are noisy and generate lots of carbon monoxide that must be released into the sea water... both of which make noise.

    The new AIP the Russians are working on are like hydrogen fuel cells... like chemical batteries that don't generate noise.

    The Russian cells reportedly generate a lot more power too.

    This is a bit like making a diesel electric into an all electric sub...

    A diesel sub has the dilemma that it is short ranged and slow, but when it runs on batteries it is much quieter than any other sub at sea. The problem is that its low speed and limited battery life means it soon has to come to snorkel depth and make noise running its diesel engines to recharge the batteries.

    With this AIP they wont need to run the diesels at all... and can spend a couple of weeks in silent mode underwater at a time.

    Much harder to find and deal with.

    The Lada combines a powerful armament and very capable sensors with near nuke performance in terms of time underwater... all it is missing is high speed to be an SSN...


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    T-47

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  T-47 on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Lada combines a powerful armament and very capable sensors with near nuke performance in terms of time underwater... all it is missing is high speed to be an SSN...

    Whats the problem of Lada at the first place?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:The AIP system they are talking about is brand new and uses diesel fuel to power the AIP instead of a separate oxygen and hydrogen tank system. ..The new AIP the Russians are working on are like hydrogen fuel cells... like chemical batteries that don't generate noise. The Russian cells reportedly generate a lot more power too.
    This is a bit like making a diesel electric into an all electric sub...
    This reminds me of the fictional Capt. Nemo's submarine:
    Electricity provided by sodium/mercury batteries (with the sodium provided by extraction from seawater [using coal]) is the craft's primary power source for propulsion and other services.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus_(Verne)#Description
    https://americanliterature.com/author/jules-verne/book/20000-leagues-under-the-sea/part-two-chapter-10-the-submarine-coal-mines
    But the Chinese Yuan class "submarines are equipped with Sterling AIP system, which the Chinese claim is more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world." http://cimsec.org/chinas-yuan-class-submarine-visits-karachi-assessment/17627 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine#Propulsion
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:44 pm


    Uncle Sam is at it again... Cool

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:09 am

    Whats the problem of Lada at the first place?

    Everything was brand new prototype stuff, not evolutionary in design and it took time to work out the bugs to get them working to specs level expected.

    Now the bugs are worked out.

    But the Chinese Yuan class "submarines are equipped with Sterling AIP system, which the Chinese claim is more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world."

    Sterling engine is a combustion engine so it generates a lot of power.... just like a diesel engine really but designed to operate underwater below snorkel depth... if AIP was better than diesel engines then new AIP subs would be all electric... they are not.

    Uncle Sam is at it again...

    Don't be surprised if a US senator suggests building artificial islands 3,000km off the coast of the US so they can claim half the Pacific and half the Atlantic as being US internal lakes...



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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    But the Chinese Yuan class "submarines are equipped with Sterling AIP system, which the Chinese claim is more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world."
    Sterling engine is a combustion engine so it generates a lot of power.... just like a diesel engine really but designed to operate underwater below snorkel depth... if AIP was better than diesel engines then new AIP subs would be all electric... they are not.
    Uncle Sam is at it again...
    Don't be surprised if a US senator suggests building artificial islands 3,000km off the coast of the US so they can claim half the Pacific and half the Atlantic as being US internal lakes...
    The quote says "..more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world.", not diesel engines. The new Russian AIP for Ladas aren't "available" yet, at least for export.
    Artificial islands 3,000km off the coast will only create 200mi territorial waters zone around them, unless a chain of them is built like the volcanic Aleutians & Kurils. Even then, the USN subs still went to the Okhotsk Sea & the Soviet Arctic Zone to gather intell., & a Russian SSN allegedly sneaked into the Mexican Gulf. Also, NATO controls access to the Med. Sea from the West via Gibraltar & yet Soviet & RF SSN/GNs have gone there dozens of times too. The UK has islands in the Mid-Atlantic from Bermuda to S. Georgia & US in the mid-Pacific- Hawaii & Am. Samoa- but even if they illegally claim the whole areas as "internal lakes", it won't stop Russian or Chinese subs from going there. I hope there's no senator shallow enough to propose it!
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:18 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    But the Chinese Yuan class "submarines are equipped with Sterling AIP system, which the Chinese claim is more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world."
    Sterling engine is a combustion engine so it generates a lot of power.... just like a diesel engine really but designed to operate underwater below snorkel depth... if AIP was better than diesel engines then new AIP subs would be all electric... they are not.
    Uncle Sam is at it again...
    Don't be surprised if a US senator suggests building artificial islands 3,000km off the coast of the US so they can claim half the Pacific and half the Atlantic as being US internal lakes...
    The quote says "..more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world.", not diesel engines. The new Russian AIP for Ladas aren't "available" yet, at least for export.
    Artificial islands 3,000km off the coast will only create 12 mi terr. waters & 200mi EEZ zone around them, unless a chain of them is built like the volcanic Aleutians & Kurils. Even then, the USN subs still went to the Okhotsk Sea & inside the declared Soviet Arctic Sector's  E.Siberian, Laptev & Kara Seas, both with big islands- to gather intell., & a Russian SSN allegedly sneaked into the Mexican Gulf. Also, NATO controls access to the Med. Sea from the West via Gibraltar & yet Soviet & RF SSN/GNs have gone there dozens of times too. The UK has islands in the Atlantic from Bermuda to S. Georgia & Diego Garcia in the mid-Indian Ocean; Portugal has The Azores; the US has Hawaii, Am. Samoa, etc. in the mid/S-Pacific- but even if they illegally claim the whole those areas as "internal lakes", it won't stop Russian or Chinese subs from going there. I hope there's no senator shallow enough to propose it!
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Laptev_Sea  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda#Military
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_in_the_Atlantic_Ocean#South_Atlantic_Ocean https://markosun.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/diego11.jpg?w=1000&h=741
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores#Geography
    http://vhscratchingpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Territories.png
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:14 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    But the Chinese Yuan class "submarines are equipped with Sterling AIP system, which the Chinese claim is more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world."
    Sterling engine is a combustion engine so it generates a lot of power.... just like a diesel engine really but designed to operate underwater below snorkel depth... if AIP was better than diesel engines then new AIP subs would be all electric... they are not.
    Uncle Sam is at it again...
    Don't be surprised if a US senator suggests building artificial islands 3,000km off the coast of the US so they can claim half the Pacific and half the Atlantic as being US internal lakes...
    The quote says "..more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world.", not diesel engines. The new Russian AIP for Ladas aren't "available" yet, at least for export.
     

    The statement is chest thumping nonsense.

    From the details of the Russian AIP, it is an actual fuel cell that likely does not require O2 production to operate. Fuel
    cells can use alternative chemical pathways for energy extraction from diesel or other fuels. They can also be made much
    more efficient than internal combustion engines. So the long term operation in pure electrical mode is a very realistic
    outcome of this engineering solution. I am not sure what the limitation is that prevents the diesel engines from being
    removed altogether.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:43 pm

    The quote says "..more efficient than the AIP systems currently available in the world.", not diesel engines. The new Russian AIP for Ladas aren't "available" yet, at least for export.

    A sterling engine is an AIP, and they are not that efficient... when the O2 runs out they stop working as air independent propulsion systems.

    When there is O2 then they are the noisiest AIP you can get... even nuclear power plants are quieter... only their cooling system pumps make noise...

    I hope there's no senator shallow enough to propose it!

    Of course there is.

    And the US navy is well known for being sticklers to international law when it suits them...

    Check this out:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZmundI7OTQ

    Warning don't read the comments below this vid as they are mostly BS from ignorant fools.

    The facts are that the US Navy in this case was attempting to claim "right of innocent passage"... can't remember the exact details but it says something like as long as you said in a straight line from point a to point b you can pass through the territorial waters of another country as long as you keep sailing straight.

    This led to them entering within the 12 mile territorial waters of the Soviet Union... leading to what you see in the vid.



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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Benya Yesterday at 11:14 am

    Russian Navy Special Forces to Receive P-650 Midget Submarines

    The Russian Navy’s special operations forces (SOF) will receive the newest P-650 special-purpose midget submarines. These ships display just 720 tons and will be able to covertly deliver special-purpose and SOF groups to the shore and retrieve them. The submarine was designed by the Malakhit Special Marine Engineering Design Bureau. According to experts, it will be a response to the introduction of submarines converted by the U.S. Navy into SOF platforms, the newspaper Izvestia reported.


    P-650 special-purpose midget submarine scale model as shown by Malakhit design bureau during IMDS naval show in St. Petersburg.

    As Izvestia was informed at the Navy’s Main Staff, the P-650 is seen as a dedicated platform and a SOF support boat. The decision on them will be made after the final boat configuration is defined.

    "The P-650 is a multipurpose boat," Malakhit’s leading designer Viktor Karavaev told Izvestia. "It provides for the installation of torpedo tubes to enable the SOF personnel to leave the submarine and a special compartment with a lock-out chamber to retrieve them. The ship has a modular design, which makes it possible to additionally deploy different types of cruise missiles, torpedoes, and bottom mines. Therefore the submarine can not only carry out clandestine missions, but also act as a patrol ship, destroy single ships or shore targets with missiles and torpedoes, conduct covert electronic intelligence, provide target designation to other ships in a group."


    P-650 special-purpose midget submarine scale model as shown by Malakhit design bureau during IMDS naval show in St. Petersburg.

    The P-650 has a length of 55 m and a width of 6.4 m. The maximum diving depth is 300 m. The boat is powered by two diesel generators generating electric power for a super-quiet propulsion motor. Its range is 2,000 nautical miles (over 3,000 km). The submarine can travel most of this distance submerged without disclosing its location. The submarine has a crew of nine people. There is a special room aboard the submarine to accommodate a group of six combat swimmers. The ship can carry four 533 mm torpedoes, eight 400 mm torpedoes. In addition to them, 12 bottom mines are placed in special bomb bays located between the pressure and outer hulls of the boat.

    According to Karavaev, the P-650 traces its roots to the Soviet Navy’s Project 865 Piranha class midget submarines. These ships were specially designed for covert delivery of SOF personnel to the enemy's coast. For this reason they were one of most secret boats in the Navy. A total of two submarines, MS-520 and MS-521, were built. However, the program was closed in 1999 and it was decided to scrap the boats.


    P-650 special-purpose midget submarine scale model showing 12x launch tubes for sea mines.

    Expert Vladimir Shcherbakov told Izvestia that interest in midget submarines is primarily caused by the introduction of special attack ships in the US Navy. "Unlike the American one, the Russian concept presupposes the construction of ultra-small and low-noise ships operating in the coastal zone or inland seas," the expert said. "They will be in strong demand in the Baltic, Black, South China or Caspian Seas where there are no great depths and where a nuclear-powered boat will never enter stealthy."

    The United States is now the main developer of special-purpose midget submarines. To improve the delivery of divers-SOF soldiers, the US United Special Operations Command ordered a "dry" midget submarine from Northrop Grumman Corporation under the Advanced Swimmer Delivery System (ASDS) special program. The ship has a length of 19.81 m, a diameter of 2.43 m, and a displacement of 55 tons. The diving depth of the boat exceeds 300 m. The boat is delivered to the objective area by specially equipped nuclear submarines and surface ships. ASDS boats do not have armament, recalls the newspaper Izvestia.

    Arrow https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/august-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5492-russian-navy-special-forces-to-receive-p-650-midget-submarines.html

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

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