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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

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    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:19 am

    Watching this, I wanna ask, what role will this sub fulfill in the RuN's BS fleet? Sub crew Training?
    Whats going on there? Suspect
    Is that one of the ships captured when

    Or did they mutiny from Ukropia 404 & escape to Russia?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:31 am

    A Yasen's missiles are not only in the vertical silos.
    They carry many types of missiles in their torpedo compartments and launch them from the torpedo tubes, including:
    - Anti submarine versions of the CLUB family
    - Anti ship versions of the CLUB (The one with supersonic final speed)
    - Land attack KALIBR

    The main purpose of the Yasen is sea denial with two main types of missions:
    - Destroy enemy carrier task forces
    - Destroy enemy submarines

    If necessary, they can also carry out land attack strikes with KALIBR missiles both in their vertical silos as well as from torpedo tubes. Up to a maximum of 50 - 60 KALIBRs can be carried in total. But this is not the main mission profile for Yasens.

    Note that the modernized Oscars will carry ZIRCON in vertical tubes and still take with them KALIBRs and other missiles from torpedo tubes.



    T-47

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  T-47 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:41 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:Does launching a volley of 100 SLCMs towards an ally in peril from terrorists require to engage say more than 1 (out of 7) of Russia's SSGNs? Cause this is what would happen with the induction of all Yasens (2-3 will be needed and won't be available). And the answer is: No. A single, up to date Oscar II would suffice in 2017, even in 2030.

    Question number 1 is, why I have to bring submarines to launch a volley of missiles to "terrorists"? Unless it is for training purpose like in Syria I have no reason to deploy subs! Surface ships will do the job done. Easier to move around, reload, refuel, can be deployed from any base as Russia doesn't deploy nuke subs in all of its fleets or bases. Also unless its the 4A (Africa, Americas, Antarctica, Australia) Russian SSKs can reach all other places in the world with their missiles. You are regularly missing out the SSK factor.

    Question number 2 is, If I have 7 Yasen commissioned why there won't be 2-3 available? If you are talking about situation right now and again putting the blame what happened in 2000s then we can also argue why Stalin didn't believe his scout reports at the beginning of 1940s. Its useless to talk about what "could" be done.  Rolling Eyes

    This is like the western "stealth" illusion, by now the noise capabilities of Yasen (late 90s tech) is already obsolete. And still only one of them is active.  affraid

    First of all, why we use submarines? To deliver a strike to enemy surface/ships "undetected" or "quietly" or "by surprise". In hunter killer case: to find and destroy enemy submarines for both offense and defense. So again, if the "not getting detected" before strikes is not the factor what is the point of using a sub (against terrorists I suppose)? Unless it is for training bla bla bla.......
    In case of submerged ships the "stealth" is not any "western" illusions, its an illusion for all of the world. And the amount of money and brains are invested all around the world for this, I hardly doubt its an "illusion". Aircraft is different case.

    And yes only 1 active with 90s tech. That is exactly why all the others are classified as Yasen-M! And they are coming with 2010s tech which are nowhere near obsolete yet, thus taking the time to build. Because industry had to introduce the techs to itself first. And the pace is already smoothed enough, will be faster soon.

    I don't think that doctrine will serve them well. It sounds like an awful waste of money, since both Yasen and Oscar require the same amount of crew (how they managed that is a big question mark).

    I think it will. It will serve them very well because they know exactly how much money they have, what is the actual condition of their industry, how much money they will have, what are the political pressures, what are the NATO pressures etc. So they made the best effort to utilize the available resources and best outcome. If I can recall correctly I heard the plan of even completing the unfinished Oscar IIs back in 2012-13. But that was before Crimea and oil prices were $100+. That was the luxury they could afford back then but not now. Obviously they have higher priority things to do.

    Oscar needs around 110 crews and Yasen around 90. Also like I pointed in my previous post, Yasen do not have a sole purpose like Oscar. So 90 crews are very effective by taking account of its missions.

    For me RuN's decision to drop the Oscar for the Yasen represent a reduction in capability, just because the higher-ups were convinced (?) to ask for a hybrid with potentially less than half the VLS cells.

    I partially agree with first part. But when Oscars were built. Russian SSKs has no long range capability. But now they has. So please someone count the number of submerged kalibr launch platform available by 2025. 7 Yasens and (?) number of SSKs. I'm lazy.....
    And yes it seems the Admirals are also convinced with the higher-ups because its not cold war 1.0 anymore. And Putin is not Brezhnev 2.0 either.


    Lastly, there are posts of Borei with kalibrs. Well by taking point of KiloGolfs logic, why building new Boreis? Converting any of the old big submarines will do the job. Noise is not the matter so I can use Delta IVs and the remaining Typhoon as well. I'm sure Typhoon can carry more missiles than Oscars.
    And if the job is to just shower missiles to an inferior enemy, just bring an old super-tanker. Cut the deck, reinforce it, put as much as UKSK you want. Then use a tug to carry that platform. Easy, cheap and you got at least 200+ launchers in one platform. (Thats more than 3 Oscars in a LOT cheaper way  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  lol1 )

    In my opinion, what USN did with their Ohios is not the reason Russia need to do as well. US had different reality back then and Russia has different situation now. So the plan of using Yasen as SSGNs for now is completely fine. This is a stop gap plan, not complete replacement. So there will be new platform in future for sure.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:35 pm

    T-47 wrote:This is a stop gap plan, not complete replacement. So there will be new platform in future for sure.

    Well there no is platform SSGN development right now, which means there will be nothing of the like operational by 2027. If the whole Husky story is just that, then I can't see them getting anything sooner than that. So for a good few years (if not a decade) the Yasen will re be replacing the Oscars, the latter I can hardly see operating after 2030. Anything from the USSR/early-to-mid-90s era will be phased out by then.

    T-47 wrote:what USN did with their Ohios is not the reason Russia need to do as well

    It kinda is. The Russian naval doctrine has to evolve since Georgia 08/Arab Spring/Maydan or they'll be stuck in 90s. A period when Russia did not face the security threats, NATO expansion, Japanese resurgence and allies in the ME being in peril like Syria. If they learn and adapt by ordering say 3-4 SSGN Borei's, it'd be enough to cover the upcoming Oscar gap.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:39 pm

    They will keep those oscars going for a long time. It will just get costly to maintain them though.

    So they eventually will replace them.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  T-47 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:03 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:It kinda is. The Russian naval doctrine has to evolve since Georgia 08/Arab Spring/Maydan or they'll be stuck in 90s. A period when Russia did not face the security threats, NATO expansion, Japanese resurgence and allies in the ME being in peril like Syria. If they learn and adapt by ordering say 3-4 SSGN Borei's, it'd be enough to cover the upcoming Oscar gap.

    Well I think Russian Admirals did better study and decided what is better for them and what they need and what they can afford. Because they have lots of things to buy with limited money! BTW in the 90s Russia saw a large NATO expansion, 2 war in Chechnya, war in Yugolavia. They did learn from them.
    And again there are lot cheaper option to get just a naval missile platform carrying kalibrs.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:10 pm

    Yes, I believe kilo subs proved that.
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  franco on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:12 pm

    At the present there is talk of modernizing and rebuilding 4 Oscar's and 6 971's plus some 877's.

    T-47

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  T-47 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:21 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Yes, I believe kilo subs proved that.

    I pointed that out in my previous posts. What KiloGolf is saying that an Oscar can rain missiles against an inferior enemy with minimal ASW/AShM capability aka terrorists and replacing Oscars with Yasen will reduce the raining capability which Russia shouldn't do. And what I am saying that there are cheaper options than maintaining that giant for raining missiles and the replacements won't reduce the capability that much because Kilos are here now and the overall slight reduction will stay for only a short time.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:22 pm

    T-47 wrote:Well I think Russian Admirals did better study and decided what is better for them and what they need and what they can afford. Because they have lots of things to buy with limited money! BTW in the 90s Russia saw a large NATO expansion, 2 war in Chechnya, war in Yugolavia. They did learn from them. And again there are lot cheaper option to get just a naval missile platform carrying kalibrs.

    The Russian admirals of the Kursk disaster don't qualify as being bright or smart. That's why Putin sacked them all.

    I'm not sure if you've realized, but these bright admirals with their choices leave Russia in 2020 with  ca. 15 SSNs (7 of which Yasens, the rest upgrades) and 4 proper SSGNs operational (upgrades). This is what they've been up to all these years. I'm sure if it was up to them Russia's SSBNs would be the same number as France's. But hey it's going to be the same as UK's and France's combined (8 boats) by 2027.

    PS. Even if they induct 3 more Yasens, they'll hardly cover the gap left by the upcoming departure of 4 Sierras.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:03 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    T-47 wrote:Well I think Russian Admirals did better study and decided what is better for them and what they need and what they can afford. Because they have lots of things to buy with limited money! BTW in the 90s Russia saw a large NATO expansion, 2 war in Chechnya, war in Yugolavia. They did learn from them. And again there are lot cheaper option to get just a naval missile platform carrying kalibrs.

    The Russian admirals of the Kursk disaster don't qualify as being bright or smart. That's why Putin sacked them all.

    ..............

    This.

    I don't think those idiots even considered themselves to be Russian or even knew what they were at all. At best they were washout Soviets with different uniforms (shitty ones at that). Their Commander in Chief was called US Dollar.

    Everything that happened between 1990 and 2008 was a complete waste of time not worth discussing.

    What is happening now is period of fixing mistakes from the past. It will be pain in the ass and will cost them every single cent they didn't spend during 90s and then some but at least they are dragging their asses again.



    Additional though: I hope that successor to Kilo (Kalina) gets a set of VLS cells at least and hopefully some extra batteries for longer range. Equipped with Kalibr or later Zircon they could act as decent gap-fillers for anti-ship ops until number of nuclear subs is back up to proper levels.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Additional though: I hope that successor to Kilo (Kalina) gets a set of VLS cells at least and hopefully some extra batteries for longer range. Equipped with Kalibr or later Zircon they could act as decent gap-fillers for anti-ship ops until number of nuclear subs is back up to proper levels.

    Don't get me started on  the Lada. For over 20 years they could've been receiving 1 Kilo every 2 years and up until 2015, they received 0 just because they insisted on that Lada contraption that never got to work.

    If you ask me they better stick to the Kilo 636.6 and keep building it, irrespectively of what happens to other conventional or nuclear projects. 1 improved Kilo every 2-3 years for the next 2 decades aint a bad deal. Especially when their SSN fleet will shrink badly and their late 80s and 90s-built Kilos (~12 boats) will need replacing.

    Too much common sense for the Russian admirals?! lol1
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:54 pm

    Their SSN fleet won't shrink. They will prevent that from happening by upgrading and maintaining them. If anyone ever paid attention, that has been what Russia doing for a bit recently.

    I agree. Any new tech should be applied to Improved Kilo submarines (AIP, new sonar, new weapons, etc) when wanting to test, and then use those upgrades when they are ready on the same platform. Rather than attempting to build a new vessel each time.

    Kalina hopefully will be an improved improved kilo.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:44 pm


    Lada class was too much for them to chew on back then and they should have stuck with Kilos, you got that right 100% there KiloGolf.

    But like we know, back then they had corrupt hippies in charge.

    They seem to​ have gotten the damn​ thing to work apparently so after Lada is done Kalina should not be far off.

    Whole thing is supposed to be Kilo hull with AIP propulsion. They just need to add VLS on it and they are set.

    Model of export version of Lada (Amur) pretty much follows that approach so hopefully they go with it:
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:13 pm

    Knowing how the Russians work with things like that I'm not very optimistic or hopeful. I can see what works for them (Oscar, Kilo, Krivak) and all I see is their Admirals and leasrership avoiding it like the plague, in favor of "the new projects", "the shiny modern, scary designs". Lets see how far that takes them. So far their Navy is paying the price when it has to make due with gunboats, corvettes and shrinking numbers of the nuclear stuff.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Then honestly you just made no sense.

    Oscar where never made to attack land targets they "could" but that was never their purpose. The job of those subs was to hunt ships.

    so your saying the Yasen is a failure....when it was never designed to be a straight up land attack submarine like Ohio was (the four SSGN ohio's we have)

    Sorry but no, Yasen was designed has a submarine killer and to launch cruise missiles at ships, It's land attack ability was the least concern when designing it. Yes it can launch cruise missiles at land targets if it wants however like I said it was never designed to do that has the main mission.

    so save that logic because that argument is absurd.


    The modernization will change totally their purpose. Before they had 24 big Granit design for carrier killer missions. Now they will have 72 Oniks or Kalibr missiles so they will be able to attack land targets. We are talking here of the modernized Oscars.

    Please that's the third time you say that I said something I didn't say, just to try to be the one who is right. You clearly have a problem.

    I never said Yasen is a failure, I said they should and they will keep them for anti ship role and carrier killer missions, while a SSGN borei could be used for big missile attacks with 200 land attack Kalibr (like Ohio and tomahawks) which can't be done by Yasen because it has 40 VLS and they have just few of them for SSN roles (i.e attack ships and submarines and defending friendly ships).

    My logic actually is almost the same as yours (if you read correctly what I said). So you are clearly stupid if you say my logic is absurd because it is your logic too.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:11 am

    Actually, no to quote you, you called Yasen a failure has a SSGN, you say that like it was designed to be a SSGN it wasn't.

    Oscar has of yet haven't gotten that upgrade well one has and we don't know yet for sure what missiles it's carrying.

    Actually, the modernization will not change their purpose, Russian MoD has said their job will remain the same.

    Now unless you have something that supersedes, Russian MoD your argument is invalid already.

    A modern Oscar is modernized to defeat Carrier group it CAN launch missiles at land targets but it was not modernized for that purpose.

    So please save it bud, I know full well what your saying.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  SLB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:53 am

    Well, seems KiloGolf doesn't know what a Virginia Block V is. He should google it. It replicates the Yasen concept with 40 VLS.

    I would like to know if in his opinion it is also "crap" like the Yasen. (BTW, I think the Virginia is a damn good sub including the block V variant,
    unlike other USN programs that IMHO are pure unadulterated crap).

    I also find it amusing that some in this forum think that with the amount of new technologies supposed to be introduced in the Husky
    (composite outer hull, composite screw, conformal sonars, etc.) it will come cheaper than the Yasen, just because it is smaller...

    IMHO the Russian Navy should build as many Yasens as it could and only introduce Husky when its new technologies are mature.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:26 pm

    "ARE converting" means the capability is not there right now.

    You mean like the capability to sail in the open ocean without having civilian ships crash into them like the latest US ships?

    Also, that single Typhoon is active only on paper, it doesn't do patrols and doesn't get weapons besides testing them.

    Who says?

    The Typhoon actually has a very capable sonar array and were often found to have a very low noise signature that allowed them to go some places other subs could not. Why can't it be used for patrols when not testing new weapons... they have to train the crew for launch and fire drills.

    It is not a strategic anything, besides being a strategic weapons test-bed.

    There is no reason why it could not be brought back into service if they wanted it.

    Look at how often the Iowa class ships left and came back into service... despite the cost.

    The same could be said for the SR-71... a horrendously expensive aircraft...

    Wouldn't you agree that overall, they loose badly on the numbers, capability and tonnage of SSGNs? All that as a results of that choice? I say they've made a mistake that will get them less subs in the water and less VLS cells with less SLCMs ready to go.

    But what do they need a large fleet of SSGNs for?

    Even their new corvettes will be able to carry 8-16 mach 8 hypersonic anti ship missiles... a few ships with shipping crates could do what the Oscar could do for a fraction of the cost.

    In the end this makes war fighting and interventions/ally defense more expensive for Russia.

    They are going to have hundreds of platforms able to carry their new AShMs and anti sub missiles and land attack cruise missiles...

    PS. I am aware a token number of just 3 Oscars are converted for Oniks use (to keep them relevant for another decade I suspect). But the choice for RuN in the future is clear, to get rid of their pure SSGNs and use this Yasen monstrosity as some sort of solution.

    Their declared future is multipurpose vessels... no longer pure SSNs and no longer pure SSGNs, but combination vessels that are both.

    Yasen was their first attempt... Husky is their next.

    You compared situation with Yasens with F-35 and you are right from financial standpoint, both are expensive and technically problematic.

    But unlike F-35 which cost a lot and delivers very poor results for that money​, Yasen costs a lot but delivers excellent results. Even USN thinks so.

    Yasen does not equal an F-35... more like it equals a PAK FA... it does not carry 12 AAMs like the Su-35 but it has other features like stealth that make it more useful.

    Yasen is not a good SSGN because it doesn't have enough missiles.

    Doesn't have enough missiles for what?

    The missiles it operates with will be mach 8-10 Zircons... how many does it need?

    IMHO the Russian Navy should build as many Yasens as it could and only introduce Husky when its new technologies are mature.
    Agree...


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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:51 pm

    Doesn't have enough missiles for what?

    The missiles it operates with will be mach 8-10 Zircons... how many does it need?

    For land attack. Hypersonic is good but it still hit just one target. While an Ohio can destroy hundred of targets with its tomahawks. Russia will have 7 Yasen, unless they ordered more. So in case of a war or growning tensions between them and USA they will send them follow carriers. 7 Yassen for 10 carrier, that means they will all carry anti ship missiles.

    There are 2 visions of SSGN. Russia's one, the Oscars class and missiles for anti shiping, and the US one, with Ohio and land attack cruise missiles. I just suggested that they should convert some Borei for having a similar SSGN like the Ohio armed with land atack cruise missiles. While Yassen will keep their anti ship oniks and Kalibr and Zircon for destroying carriers.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:18 pm

    SLB wrote:Well, seems KiloGolf doesn't know what a Virginia Block V is. He should google it. It replicates the Yasen concept with 40 VLS.

    I doesn't seem as such at all and you made it all up, for God knows what reason.
    What the USN does has nothing to do with Oscars already/currently/in-future being replaced by smaller numbers of the less heavily armed Severodvinsks.

    Isos wrote:I just suggested that they should convert some Borei for having a similar SSGN like the Ohio armed with land atack cruise missiles. While Yassen will keep their anti ship oniks and Kalibr and Zircon for destroying carriers.

    That's very similar to my position, and I can't see why we get flak for it.
    God forbid practicality and versatility is incorporated in billion dollar-priced boats. angry

    GarryB wrote:But what do they need a large fleet of SSGNs for?

    Nobody talked about large fleets. The baseline in my argument (and future for RuN) is zero (0). And I proposed they go for a fleet of 3-4 boats that need to come online to cover the upcoming SSGN gap. Which is better than their current plan, i.e. zero (0).

    Whatever the Husky is (nothing right now), it won't come online before all the Oscars are gone from service. My position is that by 2030-2035 there will be no Oscars (even the currently upgraded ones).

    GarryB wrote:
    IMHO the Russian Navy should build as many Yasens as it could and only introduce Husky when its new technologies are mature.
    Agree...

    Agreed as well but, the gaps that the Yasen class will be asked to cover are huge. Sierras, Oscars and Akulas. Realistically they need ~20 such boats to plug that hole. And the clock is ticking.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  SLB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SLB wrote:Well, seems KiloGolf doesn't know what a Virginia Block V is. He should google it. It replicates the Yasen concept with 40 VLS.

    I doesn't seem as such at all and you made it all up, for God knows what reason.
    What the USN does has nothing to do with Oscars being phased out as we speak and, in future, being replaced by Severodvinsks.


    It seems it's you, my dear, that, when caught in your own contradictions, start to make up arguments. It may work with others but for sure doesn't work with me,
    so please, do spare me your disingenuous nonsense. For your information a Severodvinsk is an Yasen and Oscars were never part of my argument.

    More info on the block V Virginias, for example, here:

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/february-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4902-gdeb-awarded-126-million-by-u-s-navy-for-virginia-class-block-v-long-lead-time-material.html


    Last edited by SLB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:45 pm


    Huskies and Yasens will never be built in parallel. One is replacement for the other.

    As for SSGN version of Borei it's an excellent idea. Boreis are coming along nicely and price tag is in the sweet spot.

    Having extra ships ordered would also bring price of both SSGN and SSBN variants further down.

    There are also couple of old Delta SSBNs that are too loud for boomer duty that they want to retire but could be converted to Kalibr "missile farms" and serve in that role. Other than noise those ships are fine. And noise doesn't matter when you dump LACMs in the Middle​ East or some similar place
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:57 pm

    SLB wrote:It seems it's you, my dear, that, when caught in your own contradictions, start to make up arguments. It may work with others but for sure doesn't work with me,
    so please, do spare me your disingenuous nonsense. For your information a Severodvinsk is an Yasen and Oscars were never part of my argument.

    Your argument on US boats is off-topic, nobody brought them up.
    This is not the thread for it, Oscars and Severodvinsks (NATO reporting name for Yasen) are the topic, among other things.

    PS. "dear" lol1

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  SLB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:59 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SLB wrote:It seems it's you, my dear, that, when caught in your own contradictions, start to make up arguments. It may work with others but for sure doesn't work with me,
    so please, do spare me your disingenuous nonsense. For your information a Severodvinsk is an Yasen and Oscars were never part of my argument.

    Your argument on US boats is off-topic, nobody brought them up.
    This is not the thread for it, Oscars and Severodvinsks (NATO reporting name for Yasen) are the topic, among other things.

    PS. "dear" lol1

    Rolling Eyes Sarcasm, look it up.


    Last edited by SLB on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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